[First filed on: Dec 6, 2009]
Hi all,
So, has it just been me noticing all the Jets flying over Canberra today?? (Sunday) I have watched more planes flying over head all very close together today then I think have ever flown over Canberra before (ok slight over statement…but you get the idea…), Anyone know if there was any military ops going on as im sure there cant be that many people flying to and from Sydney and melb!!
[Ed] I took some photos of what was left:
Only possibilities I came up with was RMC or ADFA graduation but RMC is probably not until Tuesday.
I also thought it looked quite spectacular today. At one stage saw 3 heading to MEL, one to SYD, and one flying directly north (no idea – Hobart to Brisbane???), all leaving very prominent contrails.
I think your photo would be showing a plane doing a holding circuit before being allowed descent into Sydney
The one in your pic was quite spectacular – we saw the latter 2/3 of it and couldn’t work out whether (initially) the pilot had left the iron on at home and was doing a U-ey or (later) just random zooming around.
It’s probably a passenger plane in a holding pattern waiting to enter Sydney airspace. I’ve seen them making figure 8’s over Canberra before.
Chemtrails!
Yeah I’ve noticed this too. Many many large passenger aircraft flying over ACT.
Do you think they were passenger planes? I saw 3 all flying pretty dam close in the same direction, and 2 others flying in a similar way in the other direction, I thought passenger planes had to keep quite a bit of distance, which this lot certainly weren’t doing…
“I think your photo would be showing a plane doing a holding circuit before being allowed descent into Sydney.”
Agreed. Bloody Sydney air traffic congestion!
Northbound civil passenger flights passing over the ACT travel along the western side of the ACT, while southbound flights travel along the eastern side.
Military traffic can sometimes be seen passing directly over the centre of the ACT at fairly high altitude.
bileduct said :
kooktrails
bileduct said :
No they aren’t. They are (water) vapor trails.
Saw the white trails too and was wondering why – thought maybe a recreational pilot?
And the white trails are no longer the official name after my nephew christened them white rainbows! cute
Two things, one we are right under the 4th busiest air route in the world (Sydney to Melbourne). Second of all that big oval circle is actually an aircraft holding pattern.
I’d guess that Sydney airspace was a little crowed yesterday afternoon, and thus just before decent air traffic control decided to put an aircraft into a holding pattern.
Whilst it’s a little unusual for the contrails to remain, it could have been due to no high altitute winds (jet streams).
Either way, it still looked pretty cool…
jase! said :
LOL.
I should have used sarcasm tags, though I thought it was obvious.
It’s surprising that the trails are white, I thought most carbon derivatives were black. The emissions from these jets have lots of hydrocarbons and carbon dioxide, PLUS they’re up so high that plants reach them to metabolise them.
I understand that a qantas aircraft has some technical issues and was given a priority clearance to Melbourne. Everyone else had to give up their “slots” which caused the traffic jam visible heading south.
White rainbows – cool.
loki964 said :
Yes, they need to keep their distance, but the amount of room they are allowed to have between them depends on a lot of factors, including the size of the various types of planes (eg an A380 and a B737 need far more space between them than two B737’s). The distance apart is roughly 8 km if both planes are at the same altitude, however they may technically fly on top of each other provided there is at least 600 meters of air between them. On the ground there is no way you’d pick up altitude differences without some sort of measuring equipment. (Can you look to an object 10km away and accurately guess how far it is away to the meter using only your eyesight?)
Also as for the numbers of planes at once, well don’t forget that there are at least 5 different airlines (that I can think off the top of my head) which fly that route, Qantas, Virgin Blue, Jetstar, Tiger, United Airlines (LAX – SYD – MEL and vice versa) and I’m sure there are a couple of other international or minor airlines which fly the route as well.
BTW I’m sorry to any pilots if I have the numbers wrong…
Could be Santa practising, and one of th reindeer has bad wind?
sloppery said :
not that surprising, from burning hydrocarbons in oxygen there are 2 main resultant products, CO2 as you have mentioned and H2O.
the trails up there have a lot in common with the white exhaust that is visible when your car is cold on a cold day.
bileduct: I figured you were being silly and thought i would respond in kind, hence the
smiley
sloppery said :
They are actually formed from water vapour that condenses in the turbulence coming off the wings – hence their name – contrails, short for condensation trails. Basically they are long thin clouds, hence their white colour.
I noticed the high number of contrails yesterday as well. Must have been an unusual combination of very still upper atmospheric conditions and high humidity.
Chemtrails for sure why would a plane do two u turns?
Contrails are water based and should evaporate not stick around for hours n block the sky like chemtrails do.
They seem to been laying most trails near the sun almost blocking it out.i think there trying to reduce its uv damage but chemtrails can be used for many things.
vist my youtube for video’s http://www.youtube.com/user/CanberraChris
Or Search Dtic http://www.dtic.mil
For barium ion clouds/Barium radar
qantas aircraft has some technical issues and was given a priority clearance to Melbourne. Everyone else had to give up their “slots” which caused the traffic jam visible heading south
The one shown in the pic at top of this post was an aircraft heading (mostly) north.
Also interesting to note that this loop was STILL visible this morning, tho slightly less distinct (looking from Weston Creek towards Black Mtn).
stonedwookie said :
Because a holding pattern is designed to slow the plane down
Step 1. Do a180 degree turn and flys in the wrong direction for a little bit
Step 2. Do another 180 degree turn so that it’s flying in the right direction again…
Step 3. Repeat as many times as required…
stonedwookie said :
Just like clouds evaporate immediately and don’t stick around…
The “chemicals” are invisible, just like the exhaust of your car should be… Yesterday would have been fairly still up in the air, and probably somewhat humid, which are both unusual, but not unheard of. Combine that with one of the busist air routes in the world and it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to realise that planes will leave longer than usual contrails and that aircraft may from time to time have to do holding patterns.
Canberra is almost the exact point at which aircraft flying to Sydney need to start their decent, so there would be quite a few aircraft which do holding patterns above us (where it doesn’t annoy Sydneysiders or us as we can’t hear or normally see them). It’s just unusual to see the holding patterns drawn out in the sky so clearly.
stonedwookie said :
oh dear lordy, you are serious aren’t you?
the reason for the 2 u-turns has been mentioned, to delay the entry in to the CTA for ATC reasons, flying Hobart to sydney we did a nice long loop from Canberra – Goulburn – Yass – Canberra before continuing on.
Deano if you get the binos out when there is a 747 flying over you can see 4 trails that merge in to 1 if the conditions are right, some days its the wings, some days its the engines
Duntroon Graduation Parade today. They were probably practicing for the overflight on sunday
just saying…
Red Bull air race at 30,000 feet
stonedwookie said :
If they are high enough the water particles freeze and can last for quite some time.
Do your wear a tinfoil hat in bed to stop alien abductions?
explan this if these are normal flights?
why are there no trails being left today?
Chemtrail next to a contrail see the difference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhTu59ru0Go
They had obviously been in these holdings patterns again this morning…
stonedwookie said :
RiotACT thread delivers!
@ozmackem
water particles frozen in front of the sun for
5 plus hours i dont think so
jase! said :
Urrgghh! CO2 and H2O sound like chemicals to me… The first one can kill you, and isn’t the send one oxygen dihydride?
stonedwookie said :
Did you know that the government are in cahoots with aliens to abduct us all. The “chemtrails” are really government mind control drugs.
On a more serious note, contrails are only left for an extended period of time when the weather conditions are right. You have to remember that the weather conditions up there can be vastly different to down here.
Also Gunhahlin Al, yeah I saw at least 4 holding patterns again this morning. Not surprising as Sydney airport gets quite busy early in the morning. The Sydney to Melbourne route often gets compared to a commuter bus service, there are more early flights between these two cities before 9am than there are Action bus services from my place into the city before 9am. (10 Bus Services compared to 18 flights)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_trails gives some info.
Canberra is on the Melbourne-Sydney route. There is a 10 NM track difference for Northbound and Southbound traffic. Probably some vertical separation as well. Hence the two trails you see sometimes
In the days of TAA and Ansett, when planes took off for the same destination with a minutes difference, the contrails created visions of a great race between two jets. Realistically though by the time the northbound flights hit Canberra, they are probably under Sydney approach control.
During WW2, weather spitfires flew at 30,000 feet over Europe, they were identified by their contrails and a lot of effort went into “camouflaging” the trail, to no success afaik. The Germans however knew they were weather aircraft, and never bothered to waste resources in trying to chase them away.
stonedwookie said :
Aint no scientist, but I think it would depend on atmospheric conditions.
stonedwookie said :
This is the last post I’ll waste on you, as you seem to be intent that everything is a giant gov’t comspiracy…
How on earth can snow exist for an entire ski season, when it’s sitting out under the sun? Another gov’t conspiracy?
The average temp at the typical altitudes which airliners fly at is usually well below zero. With exception to very very high altitudes usually the higher up in the air you go the colder it gets. Sun or no sun, when water gets below zero it freezes. When the amount of water in the air gets too high water particles “clump together” and form clouds (think fog or mist on the ground). Seeing contrails in the air is no more amazing than seeing a cloud in the air.
Just quickly stonedwookie, do you really want to be publically talking about this? For all you know, I’m a gov’t spy and I’m simply trying to get as much information out of you as possible whilst tracing this connection. Expect a white van to pull up out the front of your house shortly
basketcase said :
Not yet, they would still be talking with Melbourne centre. Infact I do believe Sydney approach doesn’t take over until the plane is virtually landing, also with exception to the tower at Canberra airport itself, all of Canberra’s airspace (including Canberra approach) is controlled out of Melbourne centre.
It’s actually a giant paperclip made from smoke created by burning the unborn fetuses of Aborigines. This smoke released in a paperclip patten has been proven to stop global warming, and as a bonus, it kills white cabbage butterflies, and softens your hands while you do the dishes.
I read all about it on the internet…….www.elvisisnotreallydead.com
I’m guessing harvyk is a pilot or at least someone very interested in aviation. Melb Centre does seem to have control until quite close to sydney from looking at the Canberra VTC.
Where most airliners live (35ish thousand feet) the temperature is nominally considered for calculations to be -57 degrees, yes it does vary a little but it will always be what most people consider to be damn cold
stonedwookie said :
Inside jobby job!
Hmm, the Liberal Party is taken over by climate change deniers, ETS is defeated in the Senate, global leaders are about to start talks on climate change and all of a sudden there is a massive increase in chemtrails linked to global dimming – co-incidence? Probably.
Holding patterns should be loop-the-loops. That would be awesome.
Hmm, the science (or lack of it??) is over my head, this bit is the only bit I know is correct:
Quote: harvyk1
“Not yet, they would still be talking with Melbourne centre. Infact I do believe Sydney approach doesn’t take over until the plane is virtually landing, also with exception to the tower at Canberra airport itself, all of Canberra’s airspace (including Canberra approach) is controlled out of Melbourne centre.”
Chop71 said :
I wish – the lake would be a perfect setting for red bull in Canberra!
The vapour steams were also noticable over southern Canberra this morning about 9am. Could be a coincidence but ADFA’s graduation is today.
No, no, no. It’s a sign for the invading alien fleet. Land here, where you see the paperclip symbol.
I bet if you checked globally, these trails will be near every major city. Coincidence?? I think not!
bd84 said :
Any planes they fly for the graduation (don’t think they will) won’t be high enough to leave contrails. Contrails don’t normally appear until a plane is pretty high up, and by that stage the contrails are usually the only sign that a plane is infact there.
The only time I’ve ever been served a hot drink in scum-class on a jet between Sydney and Canberra was during a triangular holding pattern over Lake Burragorang due to fog in Sydney, which persisted until we were forced to return to Canberra (fuel).
why would a plane do two u turns?
Ummm… strategies to delay arrival time for public transport coming into a busy terminus such as pulling off onto the verge and leaving it idling for 15 minutes don’t tend to work so well with aircraft!?!?
Pilots getting ready for Summernats…
The Reptilian reinforcements are coming!
Another thing that occurred to me today is that these trails might be from Airbus A330 aircraft, as they seem to have a very bad habit of going off and doing their own thing when the pitot tubes and flight control computers malfunction.
Sunday’s significant amount of air traffic, particularly heading to Melbourne… I suspect that most were returning to Melbourne with the hundreds (thousands?) of people who went up to Sydney for the V8 Supercar event… I suspect additional flights to what is usual… that – and an interesting/unusual atmospheric weather…
I got some photos, posted on Flickr…