14 June 2008

Restrict young drivers

| DJ
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In another tragic incident another young person has been killed on Canberra roads.

For the hard nuts out there put your wit into neutral and consider if it was your friend or a relative before you start typing. In my opinion learner and p-platers should be restricted the same way motorbike riders are. From the wreck it looks to me like a high speed impact that wouldn’t have been possible in a 4cyl non-turbo, standard car under 1600cc…..

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The only way to reduce the carnage on the roads is to increase the penalties for speeding and dangerous driving substantially.The only person a young hoon takes notice of is his mates therefore if you hit him hard in the hip pocket and take his licence away for a long period,he gets the message and so do his mates.

As mentioned in the AFP media release, its a

Lexus SC400 Coupe

Its a 2+2.
It comfortably seats two adults with two cramped people in the backseat, or provides sufficient room for consenting adults to hookup on Mt Ainslie.

Holden Caulfield3:43 pm 17 Jun 08

Whatsup said :

Jazz said :

I kinda like the suggestion to make it part of hte school curriculum. why hasnt that ever been considered in australia?

It was in Australia, at a small high school in Victoria…

I remember the school I went to in the late 80s had a similar program. It must have lacked funding or something, because by the time I got to the relevant year the course was offered, well, it was no longer on offer.

Like a lot of things, experience cannot be underestimated. And like a most people we all think we are better drivers than we probably are, that said, the ability for me to do some moderate paddock bashing at my grandparents farm, and to mess around on some dirt roads out the back of Canberra/Yass when mum wasn’t looking has given me a much greater appreciation of car control, and what happens when it all goes tits up, than anything that would ever be sanctioned by any formal body.

If you’ve not had the opportunity to do likewise, I suggest getting out to 5th Gear at the Sutton complex and participating in one of their courses. They offer skid pan and advanced/defensive training. I’ve only done the skid pan, and apart from your car getting bloody filthy, the lessons learned from being able to lose control of your car at low speeds in situations where the only thing likely to be damaged is your own pride is invaluable. It’s also a lot of fun! But the best bit is that courses are not run by cowboys, so there is definite training and education processes applied.

Silly me, I thought it was a convertible.

The driver has been charged for culpable driving occasioning death.
http://afp.gov.au/media_releases/act/2008/24-year-old_charged_after_fatal_collision

Jazz said :

I kinda like the suggestion to make it part of hte school curriculum. why hasnt that ever been considered in australia?

It was in Australia, at a small high school in Victoria. Not sure why it hasn’t continued and / or the idea has grown.

hk0reduck said :

Just I still can’t get over how insane these photos of the damage are, it looks like they hit with enough force for the head-rest on the front passenger side seat to get thrown off.
http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/multimedia/images/full/176838.jpg

Given that the roof is missing, and the A, B and C pillars have been cut away, I think the paramedics may have cut him out and possibly needed to access his neck\spine.

I kinda like the suggestion to make it part of hte school curriculum. why hasnt that ever been considered in australia?

Whilst there are so many ideas for what we can do to eliminate this problem, the only real solution is for these kids to keep having fatal accidents. Harsh as it may seem, It’s the only way that speeding and drink driving gets through their thick heads.

We might as well start inflicting the death penalty for traffic offences.

Starting with cyclists of course! 🙂

Just a quick update on the passengers from todays CT.

One of the males who was in a critical condition is now considered to be in a serious condition.

I still can’t get over how insane these photos of the damage are, it looks like they hit with enough force for the head-rest on the front passenger side seat to get thrown off.
http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/multimedia/images/full/176838.jpg
http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/multimedia/images/full/176575.jpg

Holden Caulfield4:45 pm 16 Jun 08

As always, with topics like this there are some good suggestions and some pretty daft ones. Sadly, the ones pointing out that you can’t legislate against stupidity are the ones most relevant here.

Respect to the families involved in this tragedy.

Trouble is, there is no solution that allows us to keep the freedom we enjoy. Kids, middle Australians, elderly, doesn’t matter who, people from all walks of life die in road accidents mostly because of driver error. Be that error of speeding, lack of concentration, or whatever. Restrictions may work in some aspects, but we’re all individuals and we will never act the same.

Sounds a bit like giving up and accepting fate will take its course. And I guess, to a degree, that is what I’m suggesting. While there should always be an aim to reduce the road toll through whatever means are deemed sensible at the time, we also need to understand that, ultimately, sh!t happens and the only thing likely to have stopped the accident in Campbell was common sense.

I’m with you tap. I find it concerning that someone on a P plate is not deemed fit to drive a car at the legal speeds that apply to everyone else. This says to me that driver training is inadequate. Going slower than the flow of traffic is not safe driving.

The idea of different speed limits for different drivers concerns me. Just because it seems that that could make highways more dangerous.

I think we need to follow NSW to an extent. Ie Give Police the power to cancel a person’s licence on the spot, for outrageous speeds or drink driving. Reduce the speed of P-Plate drivers. ie max speed 80kph etc etc.

I know I’d prefer to get caught breaking the law in ACT than I would in NSW.

Unfortuantly there are too many of those idiot civil libs here, for anything to change. A good start would be to vote Labor out and Liberal in. At least have a change of Govt which may have the balls to stand up to these jerks.

I agree with shauno. Plus even if people still do drive dangerously (it is fair to assume that a dragway won’t stop all dangerous driving), isn’t the fat that they will have ‘practiced’ speeding a good thing? They’ll know more about brakeing distances etc? As opposed to still speeding but not knowing their cars limits?

Surely opening a public dragway will only cause more problems. People who utilise it will eventually get bored with doing burnouts on a boring dragway and will take what they have practiced in a sheltered environment out on to public roads and endanger other road users.

Lol Yep im going to go out and kill people cause that’s what I just did on my play station, same analogy. Its been shown there is less street racing in western Sydney since they opened the drag way there having regular street meets of an evening which is a great night out for the family.

Surely opening a public dragway will only cause more problems. People who utilise it will eventually get bored with doing burnouts on a boring dragway and will take what they have practiced in a sheltered environment out on to public roads and endanger other road users.

However, I realise there are far greater problems with our society’s attitude to speeding and drink-driving. How many people do you know who think it’s fine to travel at at least 10kms over the speed limit? How many people watch shows like Top Gear or have watched drivel like “The Fast & The Furious”? How many people have ever seen an ad for any kind of car on tv? How many times a day do you see people speeding and/or driving irresponsibly?
Education is clearly one answer, but I also think the driving age needs to be increased.

How about this for an idea.

Don’t worry about it. The amount of kids dieing on our roads is minuscule. Sad as it is every now and again for some one to loose their life its just one of those things that happens. Get over it and think about having a few less rules and regulations in our lives instead of increasing it. Next thing you will want is compulsory training wheels on mountain bikes up the age of 18.

Tony said :

People in the US drive in a sensible and thoughtful manner

That’s because every second person is carrying a handgun and no-one is game to cut someone else off for fear of being shot.

Loosen the handgun ownership laws in Australia and everyone will drive in a sensible and thoughtful manner. God bless America!!

neanderthalsis10:55 am 16 Jun 08

In my honest opinion, I don’t think there will ever be a way to stop 17 – 25 year old males from killing themselves and others on the road, except maybe by banning cars altogether (but then they’d be thrown from their horse, fall off their bike or terminally sprain an ankle, etc). Inexperience is the main reason these young men die. It is a combination of inexperience and ego that would drive a bloke to do immense speed down a wet road at 2am in the morning.

Young men have been risking death in as many ways possible since Adam himself was a teenager, most survive and realise at the age of 25 that they did some bloody stupid things and are lucky that they survived them all; they mellow and turn into relatively normal human beings. It is also at this age that we start to think that the new “younger generation” are reckless maniacs hell bent on killing themselves and something should be done to stop them.

Restricting engine capacity would do little, the desire to drive like a tool is entirely attitudinal. Adolescents / young men are indestructible, egomaniacal and entirely capable of causing as much mass carnage in a 30yo 1100cc Datto as they are in a new Lexus, WRX or HSV.

My high school had driver training. It was a subject that went for a semester and consisted of theory as well as some practical sessions of basic car control around witches hats on the high school oval. The local holden dealer provided a small 4 cylinder car covered with advertising to the school. It prepared us to obtain our learners permit. We were then encouraged to attend a young driver training course over the school holidays, the people that attended it clearly had an advantage over those of us that didn’t. They had learned about how their cars behave on different surfaces, in different conditions and what effect speed had on the safe operation of their car. I think all young drivers should attend this sort of training, its not cheap but neither is the price of life and / or property.

The log book system that a young driver must get a minimum number of supervised hours is also a great idea. Its builds experience, confidence and consolidates the knowledge and skill previously learned.

There will always be those who refuse to learn and nothing will help them out. For the others lets increase their chances of survival. I know I wasn’t ready when I got my P’s. Didn’t have any accidents but from what I know now… I was statistic waiting to happen.

Most people spend more money on their childrens extra curriculum activities then they do on preparing them for safe travel on the roads. Their ballet lessons or rugby tour costs will be useless when the young person ends up in a wheel chair because of lack of driver training got them in a horrific car crash.

You can install all the safety equipment possible and create all the best rules however this is no substitute for inteligent defensive driving. Darwinism rules!

la mente torbida9:25 am 16 Jun 08

@cranky

The minister quotes stats about the reduction in accidents based on the implementation of the 120 hour L plates in Norway or Sweden (not sure which). As with all statistics, what he doesn’t mention is that there was a significant drop in the number of L Platers because a license was so difficult to get.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy9:13 am 16 Jun 08

Plus I read somewhere once that China has over 100,000 deaths a year from people getting hit while riding bicycles. Lovely.

black_rattism8:56 am 16 Jun 08

In contrast to everyone offering solutions gleaned from US roads, I bring one from China…put lots more cars on the road! If there are constant traffic jams everywhere it’s a real discouragement from driving at all and there’s little opportunity to get over 10 km/h. I don’t think I saw a single car accident in a year in Beijing. Of course, the threat of zero tolerance to drink driving and people getting “disappeared” after causing accidents helps too…

Some Riot posters have been to the States…. others have observed better training practices here and there; other posters are neanderthals. But did i see any mention or suggestion of the USA school system driver-training which is part of the curriculum? Do Pollies here ever mention it? Does the NRMA? I do not recall much, if anything, on it in the news that abounds about P-plater crashes.

Curriculum means a subject .. a pass is required…many hours of phsyc/attitude stuff as well as driving. Oh, and they tend to do (economics) three learners in the car at one time; ie: driving kid, and two in the back. Lots of critiquing and a version of the “little finger” if you get smart.

A couple of states (as in States) I lived in also required aspiring drivers who obtained their licence via school at 16 to remain in school until graduation, or, guess what?! you can’t have the licence any longer. A couple of incentives there.

My three daughters all went thru this system many years back. Seems to have worked ok. At least none of them have taken out a wall, or, have any points.

Could tell some tales about attitude during my on-and-off years as a driving instructor here in Oz. Anecdotally (a word?) most customers were early twenties who failed their test first time at 17 and would not do it again – usually owing to peer pressure. Butt he 16 and 9 mth ones were generally: (males!!) unteachable in that they would grasp the physical logistics of driving quickly, but viewed the whole process as a meccano set to tear apart and reconstruct … do it their way – a mental [testerone?] thing. The girls generally had no idea about things like “why” the clutch [what’s that?] has to go down to change gear [what are gears?] and therefore tend to learn-by rote what is necessary to perform the task of getting from A to B. They are mostly tunnel-visoned in driving as well. They become the ladies who drive like they shop – trolley all over the place, and little awareness of other shoppers. Ocassionally there would be an either gender who just could not understand the concept of steering – you know, point and go there, as in there! Of course the maturety level of 16 year olds was way all over the shop! Some should not have been allowed out of the house on their own. Others, who approached the task [of learning to drive – not to just get your licence] became accomplished and skilful quickly. The failure rate first-time tested used to be 80%+ here in ACT. Lots of “other” reasons for that apart from simply not having the abilities required. Nerves, peer pressure, dick-head examiners, plain bad luck with weather and other environmental stuff-ups; for example doing their test at 3.30 and driving past all their mates at Maccas. Oops. Borrowed dad’s car and it was a piece of crap the tester would not allow for the test, etc. Anyway, got carried away there, but to sum up: attitude. attitude and attitude. A good sign on Barry drive could be “A bad attitude will f*&&*ing get you killed” – or your mates.

A recent couple of columns by a SMH writer, descibing the severe problems to be encountered by complying with the NSW learner driver regulations, are worth commentry.

Basically, about 120 hours of supervised on road instruction is required before a license can be considered. It was pointed out that this is comparable to driving from Sydney to Mt Isa and return, at a speed of 40kph. If paid instruction was arranged, a cost of about $7K was involved. The cost if siblings/triplets were involved was mind bogling. The demands on parental time caused grief. I did get the impression that there were ways of short circuiting the requirements.

However, the miserable Minister for Transport in NSW, who’s name I disremember, has put out a statement that the accident/death rate of drivers licensed under this system has fallen considerably, and I think, even with his spin, the system may have verifiable positives.

Perhaps the results of this scheme could be independently assessed, as it may be worth wider introduction. Sorry, I have almost zero faith in the NSW minister.

Duke said :

The big difference between a new car and an old 4-cylinder is the instant power factor.

An old Corolla can do 140k (at a push) just like a new car, but one will get there fast, the other will take an age.

A new car can get to a high speed in a short street, an 84 corolla cannot.

That instant power, quick acceleration thing is the killer because it encourages speeding……it’s just so easy.

An old bomb needs to be nursed – press the pedal to the floor to fast and flood the motor, nothing happens – power comes on gradually. Without this focus on speeding the newbie driver has time to concentrate on his/her roadcraft instead of trying to out-do the driver next to them.

Also if your car’s a piece of crap you have no reason to try and impress a car load of mates because they all know its a piece of crap.

Sure a new car might get to a higher speed a few seconds quicker than an older one, they’re spending more time getting their car up to speed and they will still get to that speed. Anyway, the car doesn’t need to be travelling at 140 for someone to die, a car travelling at 40, 60 or 80kph will still kill people especially travelling too fast to negotiate corners and the current driver training being insufficient.

As for trying to impress your mates, go and spend a day standing outside a local college, you will find the people trying to impress their mates will be driving the old bombs in a lot of cases. It’s more about being able to drive, not the car they’re driving.

Hey what happened to WRX boy?

The guy from http://the-riotact.com/?p=7068 ?

He survived, and probably didn’t learn anything from the experience, same with his friends.

My driving instructor told me about a student he had who managed to fluke the test and get a licence – although he knew the student shouldn’t be on the road, according to the rules he had to pass him. If driving instructors were allowed to screen students for a responsible attitude to driving, would students accept it? Would their parents?

I remember a show on abc a while ago, where a driving teacher gave his solution to speeding/hoon related activities: Instead of having air bags etc in cars, have a big spike sticking out of the steering wheel, that’d make you think twice before driving dangerously.

… It should never happen of course (and wont for many obvious reasons), but i imagine the idea appeals to those RAers prone to having no sympathy with the drivers in these kind of situations…

Put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of any car and the risk is the same. People aren’t dying on roads because they are driving daddy’s HSV, they are dying because they cannot control ANY car to satisfactory safety standards. I know people who have just received their P-plates who are hardly road worthy. I suggest improved practical education. Let’s TEACH our seventeen year olds better driving skills. Actually prepare them for the road, eh?

“Speed is just an excuse that people use to push their own agenda. Its the drivers attitudes that need to change. Not their cars.”

I don’t 100% agree but do think education and attitude are strong contributing factors that cause young drivers to speed. The speed agenda doesn’t exist in my opinion – what are you suggesting they are trying to gain? Regardless of the vehicle you drive if you drive to the basic conditions (speed, weather and congestion) you simply wont find yourself in the same position as this one.

If you can’t control yourself don’t drive – failing that, drive a car your ego can’t tempt you to test the sound barrier in regarless of how vocal your mates are in the back seat.

I can’t recall many recent fatal accidents involving older cars that can’t heavily accelerate like this vehicle and the WRX from earlier this year. There are road rules, education and shock tactics and through degrees of separation knowledge that cars kill but sometimes you have to protect people from themselves.

And for those of you who will take the next step and say that if we do this then we could apply this theory to everything in life – that isn’t the idea I am suggesting.

p1 – I think that wall is pretty harmless to the thousands of people who drive past it every day at the posted speed limit.

Well, it’s not like the wall was on the road.

Licence retests (practical and theory) every few years too would be a step in the right direction.

I think this is exactly what is needed. Incidentally, I would like to suggest that the motor vehicle operator laws are brought more in line with firearms laws. Incredibly complex to obtain, requiring safety courses, justification of why a gun (car) of certain category is required etc. I am pretty sure cars kill more people then guns.

On a slight thread drift, I think it is interesting that none of the articles I have read have mentioned that the car hit a very strong wall (anti-terrorist barrier), which may have done more damage then most things you might hit.

Yeah, at the risk of sounding like a NRA member – cars don’t kill drivers, drivers kill drivers.

When I was 19 I caused an accident that wrote off two cars (mine and theirs) and was lucky to be alive – I caused this while driving an old 4cyl car about 10km/hr by turning at a set of lights in front of oncoming traffic. No law restricting the type of car I drove would have prevented this – it was purely because I was inexperienced and not aware enough of the vehicles around me…

There’s more details about the crash in the AFP release.
http://afp.gov.au/media_releases/act/2008/fatal_collision_in_campbell

The car impacted with a wall side-on on the drivers side.

The driver has leg and pelvic injuries but is in a stable condition.
The passenger seated directly behind the driver died.
Two of the passengers are being treated for head injuries (It doesn’t say in this release whether or not they are still in a critical condition or where they were sitting.)
The last passenger only received minor injuries.

It’d be interesting to have data on how many of these young drivers involved in high-speed crashes have any history of actually being caught speeding. Perhaps the driver of this car and those like him could have been recognised and flagged as a risk via their record, and steps of some kind taken. Tachometer in the car, or something like that …

Or concerned friends could be given a channel for flaggng their concerns. It wouldn’t surprise anyone to know that one or more of the occupants of the car might well have been too intimidated by peer group culture to openly express concern about speeding, but might have reported it given the chance.
A litigious culture appeals to no-one, but perhaps if speeding drivers were personally sued for damages as a standard consequence of this sort of behaviour, it might be a deterrent. Being aware that you’re risking a multimillion dollar personal debt might put a brake on …

Restricting P platers to POS cars would actually be worse than leaving the system the way it is. Right now if a P plater is borrowing their parents car (as most do) then they are driving in the typical commodore. Air bags, ABS, traction control, ESP and in general a much more rigid structure than a typical Datsun 120Y that people on here are saying all P platers should be restricted to.

What would you rather a p plater was driving when they hit a tree at 100kph? A old crappy sh!t box that is “safe” because it takes twice as long to get up to high speeds or a typical modern family car?

Speed is just an excuse that people use to push their own agenda. Its the drivers attitudes that need to change. Not their cars.

Mr Waffle said :

I wonder if it’s worth pondering that those kids aren’t old enough to drive x or y certain type of car, yet they’re old enough to go off and die for their country…?

No, that’s a stupid distraction of a comment.

If Australia had a compulsory military draft (and could thus compel youngsters to die for their country whilst not having the right to drive certain cars) it would be relevant, but we don’t, so it’s not.

I wonder if it’s worth pondering that those kids aren’t old enough to drive x or y certain type of car, yet they’re old enough to go off and die for their country…?

Some (ignorant) people need to realise that the Summernats has absolutely no bearing on this sort of behaviour. Car enthusiasts will be car enthusiasts (or ‘hoons’ for those retards that like to generalise). Banning summernats won’t make even the slightest difference.

I like fast cars, whether V8 or turbo (or preferably both 🙂 ) I’ve been to Summernats once several years ago, and I’m unlikely to return. I used to drive too fast as a youngster, and a car festival that lasts for 3 days had nothing to do with it.

oh and an event where people are rewarded and hero-worshipped for doing just that.

Not that I am a fan of summer(G)nats – but there is a world of difference between competitors competing in a closed environment and people operating outside the law.

Take for example, the number of F1 drivers you have heard of getting speeding tickets on public roads?

<i)From the wreck it looks to me like a high speed impact that wouldn’t have been possible in a 4cyl non-turbo, standard car under 1600cc…..

I had a naturally aspirated 1300cc suzuki swift GTi that could go considerably faster than a 3.8l V6 commodore……

Size of engine has nothing to do with speed – its power to weight ratio – in the same manner that a RGV250, a 250 cc 2 stroke motorbike could go quite a lot faster than a 1300cc harley.

I think the best thing that could be done to cut out crazy driving would be to psych test applicants for licenses, and screen out attitudes like aggression, tendency to risk taking behaviours etc before people are allowed on the road. This would stop many people driving until they are grown up attitudinally (not just some arbitrary age), and some people from ever driving at all.

If anything, newer drivers should be in newer cars – they’re safer in instance of an accident. Unfortunately, this would give them more reason to show off the fact they’re in a flashier car AND can drive like total w*nkers.

I also don’t think a dragway is a good idea – you know how you seem to drive differently after you’ve been go karting? It would be worse, I imagine.

Though it’s the attitude of all drivers (although, particularly the younger/newer ones) that needs to change. Perhaps limit them to speed limited cars with super safety features?

Felix the Cat10:24 pm 14 Jun 08

bd84 said :

Exactly, pretty much every car on the road is capable of doing up to that speed, even if they restricted it down to 1.2L you could still do speeds up to about 140-150kph. You’re just as likely to kill yourself in a lower powered car, and more likely if you’re driving the 20 year old bomb.

The moronic governments in other states who continue to put these sort of restrictions on young drivers are kidding themselves, it’s not helping. They should be providing proper and comprehensive driver training in all conditions – wet weather, with people in the car and at speeds greater than 100kph AND the driver training should not be done by a parent or family member. The worst drivers on our roads are the full licenced drivers, especially in Canberra, I nearly killed 2 in one night the other day who just decided the road rules didn’t apply to them and I had to take evasie action. Mum and dad are basically teaching their kids how to kill themselves with their bad habits and the inexperience shows in their driving.

bd84 for Prime Minister! And VY Berlina V8 for deputy! The most sensible comment about road safety I’ve read in a long time.

Licence retests (practical and theory) every few years too would be a step in the right direction.

People saying a dragway would solve the problem are wrong. When we had a dragway, the cars leaving the facility were revving, roaring, tyres screeching around (or over) the roundabouts, blasting away from them, horns blaring (at other drivers presumbably).

The dragway didn’t relieve whatever it is that makes them drive like that. It revved them up. They wanted more. People leaving a dragway (or raceway for that matter) do not drive like they’re off to church.

I refer you all to this article

http://www.menshealthaustralia.net/~mhirc//files/JA37YoungMenRiskTaking.pdf

Ban everything…..young people and some not so young people, especailly members of the male gender will always take risks. The world is not cotton wool, you cannot save people from their own stupid, risk taking behaviour. People will always die either from their own hand or another’s. Its is always a tradgedy and tradgedies will continue to happen regardless of what rules are imposed.

Sentencing serial driving offenders to accompany paramedics at road trauma scenes for several weekends _might_ (you’d bloody hope so) wake up some of these ‘invincible’ drivers to the possible consequences of their actions.

It bemuses me as to some of the arguments people make on this subject. Every time a suggestion is put forward to curb this type of irresponsible driving behaviour, somebody is compelled to argue what they believe to be a stronger argument against such ‘imposition’.

If we were to accept most peoples reasoning the then only answer to save lives is the following;

1. Remove posted speed limits.
2. Allow P platers to drive any vehicle at any time.
3. Introduce race tracks so drivers can practice how to drive like maniacs.
4. More Police on the roads but they can’t fine you because thats revenue raising and they should be out catching real criminals.
5. Introduce more public transport as young people are more likely to catch a bus than cruise the streets with their girlfriend in dad’s $80,000 Mercedes.
6. Ban old, crap cars because that is apparently the cause of injury when people crash and not the driving behaviour.

I wait in anticipation for the first moron who thinks the above is a good idea….Come on put your hands up…I know you’re out there.

Hey what happened to WRX boy?

I drive like an old person, because I am one, and I drive the most anonymous car on the planet. I’ve had few problems, because I drive conservatively. I’ve tried to encourage the young people I know to take a similarly boring approach, because (expressly) it will give the coppers no basis to intervene and (implicitly) because it might expand the chance of those young people reaching a similarly advanced age.

I cannot imagine, and do not want to try imagining, the grief of those families whose children die or are crippled on the road. It would tear the heart and weaken any reason for living. It would likely destroy happiness for the families and for the other young people around the one who died.

Would zero tolerance policing work? Speed cameras everywhere? Speed governors made compulsory? More driver training? A fright campaign on the telly? Cash incentives for young people who do not have collisions? My guess is that all of these would work for those who are minded to be sensible – and probably not for the ones most at risk. I have no idea how to stop the others. Perhaps, just possibly, compel those who are caught speeding or driving dangerously to return to the road in something small and deliberately underpowered – make them pay to rent it.

I am, however, confident that legalising silly driving (eg drags and burnouts) in specified places would not work; the Summernats argument is, frankly, silly because we have had Summernats for years and still young people die. Glorifying the car culture cannot make the young act like the old. The “motorsport” and Summernats topics have been done to death in other posts, and it is a pity to see some trying to use this latest tragedy to revive interest in their hobby.

Thoughts and prayers for those affected by this and every other pointless death.

There is an add campaign like that at the moment with the little finger waggle.

Timberwolf657:06 pm 14 Jun 08

At the risk of unleashing the wrath of all the petrol heads, banning events like Summernats would also help. It is futile to try to tell young people not to speed, drag race and do burn-outs because they are stupid and dangerous if the City then goes into rapture over an event where people are rewarded and hero-worshipped for doing just that.

If they ban summernats there will be nothing in Canberra, what they need to do is open a dragway/race track where people can go and get their wildness out, where they cannot hurt anyone else….but as if that would happen.

Someone_else6:53 pm 14 Jun 08

RuffnReady said :

PS Here’s another related story about a guy claiming the ads gave him road rage:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/motors/little-pinky-gesture-turns-driver-red/2007/11/01/1193619023072.html

Hahahahaha, what an idiot.

What a tool, sounds like the other driver hit a nerve!

Someone_else6:51 pm 14 Jun 08

Duke said :

Also if your car’s a piece of crap you have no reason to try and impress a car load of mates because they all know its a piece of crap.

And if your car is a piece of crap and you get into an accident, you’ll probably wind up in a much worse situation than if you were driving a newer car with better safety features. People criticised my parents for buying my older sister a brand new car when she got her license, but when a truck ran her off the road and into a tree it was the safety of that new car that probably saved her life.

PS Here’s another related story about a guy claiming the ads gave him road rage:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/motors/little-pinky-gesture-turns-driver-red/2007/11/01/1193619023072.html

Hahahahaha, what an idiot.

CanberraResident, it’s already being done. Haven’t you seen the ads where people see a young guy speeding or hooning and raise their little finger in the “small penis” signal? They’ve been on for about a year now. Here’s a link to a blog and one of the ads:

http://pitchmarketing.blogspot.com/2007/06/give-speeding-little-finger.html

I also remember that the NSW RTA were claiming “success” from the ads. Here’s a BBC story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7045178.stm

It’s still plenty easy to lose a car once the road gets wet though. I wrote off a car and nearly killed myself when I was 18 or so. The car in question was an HZ Kingswood with a stock 202 6 cylinder and 4 speed manual. Hardly a powerhouse by modern standards with it’s whopping 81kW and 1350Kg kerb weight. I’d imagine even the cheapest 4 cylinder buzzbox today would have a much, much better power/weight ratio.

There’s another article on the crimes website which gives a better indication of where it actually occurred – right near Reg Saunders Way.

http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/general/adfa-cadet-killed-two-fight-for-life/789613.aspx

There is no magic answer to this problem, unfortunately. Young people are daft and risk taking by nature. This one ended horrifically and will stay with everyone involved for the rest of their lives.

The big difference between a new car and an old 4-cylinder is the instant power factor.

An old Corolla can do 140k (at a push) just like a new car, but one will get there fast, the other will take an age.

A new car can get to a high speed in a short street, an 84 corolla cannot.

That instant power, quick acceleration thing is the killer because it encourages speeding……it’s just so easy.

An old bomb needs to be nursed – press the pedal to the floor to fast and flood the motor, nothing happens – power comes on gradually. Without this focus on speeding the newbie driver has time to concentrate on his/her roadcraft instead of trying to out-do the driver next to them.

Also if your car’s a piece of crap you have no reason to try and impress a car load of mates because they all know its a piece of crap.

A P-plater in a WRX, mates jammed in the back, is going to speed because he knows his car is quick, as do his mates, and he’s a pussy if he doesn’t flog it.

CanberraResident5:48 pm 14 Jun 08

@tap – haha … advertising slogans not my forte I’m afraid … but then again, some of the worst slogans are the ones people remember.

tap said :

Risk taking behaviour is a part of growing up, Im not sure there is anything that will stop it. We could get that dragway up and running so at least people have somewhere safe(er) than on public roads to go and do it. A lot less of a risk to the general public too.

Yeah, you’re right about it being part of growing up. Heck, I remember speeding at 19 and getting caught – numerous times. It didn’t stop me until a near death accident a year later; you think you’re invincible.

Yep, the dragway would provide an outlet; what’s the go with that anyway? Do you know?

anyone else notice how every canberran thinks all other canberran drivers are terrible, but no canberran thinks that they themselves are terrible drivers?

el said :

Yeah, because 4 cylinder cars couldn’t possibly be able to get up to speeds like 160km/h, could they? Useless idea.

Exactly, pretty much every car on the road is capable of doing up to that speed, even if they restricted it down to 1.2L you could still do speeds up to about 140-150kph. You’re just as likely to kill yourself in a lower powered car, and more likely if you’re driving the 20 year old bomb.

The moronic governments in other states who continue to put these sort of restrictions on young drivers are kidding themselves, it’s not helping. They should be providing proper and comprehensive driver training in all conditions – wet weather, with people in the car and at speeds greater than 100kph AND the driver training should not be done by a parent or family member. The worst drivers on our roads are the full licenced drivers, especially in Canberra, I nearly killed 2 in one night the other day who just decided the road rules didn’t apply to them and I had to take evasie action. Mum and dad are basically teaching their kids how to kill themselves with their bad habits and the inexperience shows in their driving.

“R U Cool? Then don’t drive like a fool” – Thats hilariously bad man! :p

Risk taking behaviour is a part of growing up, Im not sure there is anything that will stop it. We could get that dragway up and running so at least people have somewhere safe(er) than on public roads to go and do it. A lot less of a risk to the general public too.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy4:41 pm 14 Jun 08

Alternatively, how about having the stamp duty on cars (new and used) linked to the number of points on your licence?

CanberraResident3:58 pm 14 Jun 08

Why is it that more young males die in high-speed motor vehicle crashes than females?

Answer:

Testosterone.
Peacock Syndrome.
Invincible.

The way these people THINK has a lot to do with the way they drive. It’s not all about having access to high-speed vehicles. Most of the time they’re showing off to their mates, and they’ll do that in a Mazda Capella 1976 with hot wheels and a modified engine.

I’d try a new campaign. Something like “R U Cool? Then don’t drive like a fool”. OK, poor effort, but something needs to be done to make speeding “uncool”. High profile personality – massive advertising campaign, supported by Holden or Ford.

Shock advertising has failed. They need a new angle.

I agree with josh.

I have traveled extensively in the US and have to totally disagree with Tony and agree with pandy andy – no way are the drivers over there better or more restrained than here. And the attitude of many Americans, including some of my friends, to drink driving, is appalling – since they have no RBTs they think it is their right to do whatever they please with no regard for public safety.

Anyway, back on topic, what a tragedy. How to stop these sorts of things happening? I think that’s pretty much impossible. I doubt that forbidding certain cars will do the trick, because it’s the BEHAVIOUR, not the car that is killing kids. Young people will always take unnecessary risks, and a small percentage of those risks will result in tragedy. Thus it has always been and sadly always will be.

Agree with VY. There’s too much focus on legal/illegal speeding rather than over-all car control and traffic behaviour, manners, skill, judgement, all that stuff.

I get into trouble when I get back from the US as I go to turn left at all traffic lights after stopping, before I remember where I am! And imagine 4-way stop signs, they’d NEVER work in Canberra.

More taxis and busses at night on weekends could help.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy1:55 pm 14 Jun 08

Fundamentally, people are stupid. Young ones especially.

I’d be in favour of more realistic solutions, however. Having more marked police cars on the road would make a massive difference, especially if the police actually booked people for those irritating and dangerous things you see on the roads every day (poor lane discipline, failure to indicate, talking/texting while driving, etc). That alone would make a big difference. Also, I think we need to find a way of making people take more responsibility for their actions behind the wheel, rather than promoting a road safety system that hides behind absolutes (eg at 81km/h you’re risking lives, at 79km/h you’re perfectly safe). Taking steps to keep traffic flowing would be an improvement also, as people would be less stressed and frustrated. Getting rid of roundabouts and lights on major roads where small side roads join (they can give way or go another way), and making ‘turn with care’ standard at all lights, for example.

Despite any and all measures, though, you will still get the occasional person who insists on trying to find their limits, and stuffs up. I don’t believe there’s much you can do to change this.

Woody Mann-Caruso12:47 pm 14 Jun 08

The deceased young man was not driving that car.

The driver will wish he was a deceased young man once the enormity of what he’s done sinks in, I’m sure.

I think if he was restricted to a worse car there probably would’ve been more dead cadets. That looked like a pretty new Lexus and I’d imagine it would have some pretty good safety features. If you’re forced to have a crap, slower car for 2 years Mummy & Daddy would probably get you an old rust-bucket and save the $40,000+ car with all the latest safety features for when your probation period runs out.

My first car was my brothers Ford Meteor(maybe 1.6 or 1.8max) and I still managed to write it and my friends car off in an accident (Whoops). Luckilly for all 8 people in the two cars whose lives I put at risk through my own stupidity no-one was injured or killed.

Accidents happen and will continue to happen regardless of what sort of artificial limits you set.

Someone I went to school with drove a daihatsu applause while on their p’s. They were fine, thankfully, after an accident that pretty much ripped the car in two pieces, and ripped the thing open in a way similar to the lexus in the paper. It is possible with little toy 4 cylinders just as much as v8

Yeah, because 4 cylinder cars couldn’t possibly be able to get up to speeds like 160km/h, could they? Useless idea.

I lived in the US for 5 years and I feel much safer driving here, there are certainly more police around (of various descriptions) the US, but in my experience they don’t enforce speed limits any differently to here and enforcement drink driving laws was no where near the level we operate at here.
Across much of the states the police need Probable cause ie. eratic driving, to pull you over, then they can make you do a sobriety test and if you fail that then a breath or blood test, this can vary depending on which state you are in. But in my experience from the east coast (particularly the mid atlantic and north east), many of the drivers on the road after about 10pm seemed to be shit faced, I was always very wary driving at night there.
Heres a link to per capita death tolls it also highlights why you should treat american figures on things with a grain of salt (there seems to be a cultural blind spot when it comes to self criticism over there). That said I do like the place and the people.

Back on topic these things are terrible whenever they happen (regardless of circumstance) although I don’t know how you can fix it, I can remember friends of mine doing some pretty stupid stuff in 1600cc datsuns when I was that age and they were just lucky they survived. Not many kids that age understand mortallity and easily over estimate there skills.

Before you say ban events like Summernats, look at Western Sydney. They noticed a sharp decrease in street drags after the dragway was opened. It gives them somewhere safe to do these things, and cost bugger all.

Funnily enough the people who normally argue against things like the dragway and a race circuit and try to get places like the speedway, sutton rd complex, moto track etc shut down are the same ones who whinge and whine about kids being stupid in the road.

Give them somewhere safe to be stupid and it will reduce how much they do it on the road.

Darwas was a good man

Newspaper said the car was a Lexus but was so smashed up I couldn’t tell what kind. I don’t believe that earlier statement that most P platers are driving their parents cars. Not many parents are driving modified turbos with lurid paint jobs.

Agreed – get them into 76 Corollas and Datsun 120Ys for their first year – will also help to deflate those big egos – goddamn poseurs

After just being in the US for 3 months, It difference is obvious between the two countries with our driving attitudes. People in the US drive in a sensible and thoughtful manner, here they don’t.
After many discussion about the differences with friend over there and here, Its seems to simply be the nigher number of police (on the road and off) per capata compared to here, and the zero tolerance they employ for such stupidity.

Put more police on the road.

Restricting young drivers to less powerful cars is good in theory however most of them dont have their own car, they borrow their parents. Also, some of them work late shift at Maccas etc so restricting their hours wont help. I agree on limiting passenger numbers though.

Unfortunately young people will always push boundaries, including the road rules. All we can do is continue to try to educate them about road safety. At the risk of unleashing the wrath of all the petrol heads, banning events like Summernats would also help. It is futile to try to tell young people not to speed, drag race and do burn-outs because they are stupid and dangerous if the City then goes into rapture over an event where people are rewarded and hero-worshipped for doing just that.

Who gave the grandma internet access?

‘no passengers’ or ‘no driving after 11? in NSW has seen a sharp increase in, you guessed it, drink driving amongst P-platers, because the whole designated driver system is now out the window…

Maybe we just restrict hoons who got to ADFA?

Back to the original suggestion, maybe restrictions to 1.8l or 2l non turbo…too many standard cars have higher capacity than 1600, I would think…but there is some merit to it. Better than ‘no passengers’ or ‘no driving after 11’, which really limit the core point of having a license.

gun street girl10:14 am 14 Jun 08

Careful with your facts. The deceased young man was not driving that car.

Woody Mann-Caruso10:08 am 14 Jun 08

Apparently, they were speeding *because* they were restricted. That, and the police are to blame, as well as the roads. Also, killing yourself, almost killing two of your mates, leaving two more fighting for their lives and placing innocent lives at risk makes you a ‘great mate’ who ‘didn’t deserve this’. Awesome.

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