Advertisement

Barry wants Sydney’s second airport in Canberra!

By 15 February 2012 38

7 News brings word that NSW Premier Barry O’Farrell is pushing for an expansion of Canberra Airport and a fast rail link to solve Sydney’s air congestion:

Mr O’Farrell ruled out supporting a second airport in the Sydney basin.

“If you want to have greater flights into this city, do so as happens overseas, by using an adjacent airport and link the two by fast rail,” he told reporters on Wednesday.

“The best way to deal with a second airport for Sydney, is not have it in Sydney, but utilise Canberra Airport and link the two cities by fast rail.

“This is an endless debate that comes out from time to time. The fact is that no other part of Sydney is going to be contaminated by the sort of noise that is connected with an airport.

“Let’s accept that fact and start to invest in linking Canberra Airport and this city.”

Please login to post your comments
38 Responses to Barry wants Sydney’s second airport in Canberra!
#1
RedDogInCan1:55 pm, 15 Feb 12

I’m obviously missing something here. If you have just arrived at an airport from overseas, why would you want to travel to another airport? It’s not like Sydney, or anywhere in Australia even, is a travel hub – most passengers are at the end of their journey when they get here.

It doesn’t even make sense for domestic connections. For a start you aren’t going to fly to Sydney to catch a domestic flight to Melbourne or Brisbane when you can fly there direct. Even for people coming from or going to Sydney, it seems a bit silly to make them go to the already congested Sydney airport to just to catch a train to or from Canberra airport – why not provide the service direct from feeder areas?

#2
fnaah1:56 pm, 15 Feb 12

In other, unrelated news, Terry Snow was seen handing a large envelope to Barry O’Farrell…

#3
fnaah1:57 pm, 15 Feb 12

RedDogInCan, this is more about airfreight than passengers.

#4
dungfungus2:07 pm, 15 Feb 12

RedDogInCan said :

I’m obviously missing something here. If you have just arrived at an airport from overseas, why would you want to travel to another airport? It’s not like Sydney, or anywhere in Australia even, is a travel hub – most passengers are at the end of their journey when they get here.

It doesn’t even make sense for domestic connections. For a start you aren’t going to fly to Sydney to catch a domestic flight to Melbourne or Brisbane when you can fly there direct. Even for people coming from or going to Sydney, it seems a bit silly to make them go to the already congested Sydney airport to just to catch a train to or from Canberra airport – why not provide the service direct from feeder areas?

Whatever way you look at Canberra being a “second” airport for Sydney, a national airfreight hub or a very fast train linking Canberra and Sydney, it doesn’t make sense.

#5
RedDogInCan2:08 pm, 15 Feb 12

fnaah said :

RedDogInCan, this is more about airfreight than passengers.

Wouldn’t the same reasoning apply for freight. Why transport freight from highly congested place to another just so you can then distribute it somewhere else?

#6
fnaah2:34 pm, 15 Feb 12

I think the original grand scheme was for Snow to have a 24/7 freight hub – he could get around Sydney’s flight curfew by allowing it to land here. Dunno whether this is still an option for him or not.

Additionally, by diverting some of sydney’s incoming air freight traffic, Sydney pollies could claim that they’ve done good things in reducing traffic/air pollution/noise/etc

… but you’re probably mostly right, there’s not a massive amount of good *practical* reasons to do it, apart from the aforementioned alleviated need to build a third airport in Sydney (and possibly the advantage of having a high speed rail link between syd/cbr, which would also reduce passenger air traffic between the two cities)

Add

#7
Grail2:36 pm, 15 Feb 12

RedDogInCan said :

Why transport freight from highly congested place to another just so you can then distribute it somewhere else?

In what way is Canberra “congested”?

If it becomes the cargo hub that Jim Snow has had a hard-on over for the last decade, that would be great. Then there would be commercial viability for a high speed rail link to ship incoming freight to Sydney, Newcastle, Brisbane and Melbourne. Clearing up Sydney skies for passenger traffic exclusively would be a huge boon to Sydney airport and the people living under flight paths.

And for those late to the show, the point of upgrading Canberra airport would be that international traffic would travel directly to the airport instead of Sydney or Melbourne, then be placed on trucks or a train to be shipped off to the distribution centres in Sydney, Melbourne, Newcastle, etc.

The infrastructure required in Canberra (and thus, the jobs to support that infrastructure) would include a customs inspection station, rail/truck freight handling facilities, warehouses to store freight that can’t immediately be transhipped, aircraft maintenance, and accommodation for truck or train drivers who need to rest overnight.

Of course, the ACT would only benefit if we can convince the Federal Government to remove the carte blanche that Jim Snow has on building whatever he wants on the site reserved for an airport.

The greatest problem with a high speed rail connection will be the reduction in the number of trucks using the Federal/Hume highways. That will be a concern to people whose livelihoods are based on small private owner/operator businesses.

#8
dungfungus2:40 pm, 15 Feb 12

RedDogInCan said :

fnaah said :

RedDogInCan, this is more about airfreight than passengers.

Wouldn’t the same reasoning apply for freight. Why transport freight from highly congested place to another just so you can then distribute it somewhere else?

The rationale is valid namely Canberra doesn’t have a curfew like Sydney so I guess they plan to use Canberra 24/7 to receive, consolidate and onforward airfreight to other centres; even road freight consolidated consignments into Sydney. It may be viable for domestic airfreight but it can’t be for international air freight direct into Canberra because AQIS classes Canberra as a “rural destination” so every item will have to be inspected and probably fumigated. The cost of the infrastructure would be enormous. International air freight will continue to go direct to either Sydney or Melbourne.

#9
fnaah3:19 pm, 15 Feb 12

“The greatest problem with a high speed rail connection will be the reduction in the number of trucks using the Federal/Hume highways”

… i don’t see that as a problem. Less amphetamine-fueled truckies causing road carnage is a good thing, and less diesel particulate in the air, combined with less wear and tear on the highway itself? Sounds like everyone wins, except the truckstops at Goulburn/Marulan/Exeter, who will probably still do a roaring trade from the car traffic who aren’t as terrified as they once were to be on that particular stretch of road.

#10
fnaah3:21 pm, 15 Feb 12
#11
harvyk13:23 pm, 15 Feb 12

RedDogInCan said :

I’m obviously missing something here. If you have just arrived at an airport from overseas, why would you want to travel to another airport? It’s not like Sydney, or anywhere in Australia even, is a travel hub – most passengers are at the end of their journey when they get here.

You are missing something there RedDogInCan… Domestic to International connections are actually used fairly frequently by airlines. Whilst yes most capital cities have an international airport, with exception to the main three (BNE \ SYD \ MEL) the number of choices of locations are limited. Your also limited as to destinations via one of these three if you wish to fly with a particular alliance \ airline.

I’m a member of a travel forum, and you’d be surprised how many people fly from Melbourne to Sydney to then connect onto an international flight, sometimes they will do that over choosing direct flights from the city they live in if the timings \ price \ aircraft will be better, other times there is no direct option, and the choice is to do a domestic flight in another country \ add a second international flight or do a domestic flight within Australia.

Provided we don’t get a curfew Canberra could easily become a travel hub. We could even do it now without adding in a rail link to SYD. Simply bump up the size of the planes used between CBR and SYD, use B767′s over B737′s and Dash 8′s and that’ll give more capacity between CBR and SYD without increasing the number of flight movements. We’re in the middle of the “golden triangle”, thus we have very frequent flights to BNE \ SYD \ MEL. We also have direct flights to all other capital cities, and most importantly we have space to expand, which is something that SYD just doesn’t have.

#12
EvanJames3:56 pm, 15 Feb 12

I was afraid of this. Snow and his Airport Empire have been quietly lobbying the Sydney Government. And I bet they’ve been lobbying other stakeholders too, the federal government, big business, you name it.

See O’Farrell’s last statement, about noise. Sub-text: Canberrans haven’t worked out yet what will happen noise-wise, as the aiport has been assiduous about confining flights to very narrow areas, to ensure that Canberrans don’t twig to what they’re in for until it’s too late.

Noise will increase. Flights will happen over all parts of the ACT and surrounding areas. And it will be ALL NIGHT.

What a shame the proponents of a transport hub at Goulburn, including hosting Sydney’s secondary airport, aren’t as good at the lobbying thing as CAC are.

#13
steveu4:07 pm, 15 Feb 12

EvanJames said :

Noise will increase. Flights will happen over all parts of the ACT and surrounding areas. And it will be ALL NIGHT.

This is it. Sydney hate the thought of more aircraft and the noise that they generate, so lets give it to Canberrans instead. And yep Snow will eventually get to expand his empire. The cynic in me suggests that we cant dodge this one. But I do like the idea of bringing jobs to Canberra with it.

#14
deye4:19 pm, 15 Feb 12

RedDogInCan said :

I’m obviously missing something here. If you have just arrived at an airport from overseas, why would you want to travel to another airport? It’s not like Sydney, or anywhere in Australia even, is a travel hub – most passengers are at the end of their journey when they get here.

It doesn’t even make sense for domestic connections. For a start you aren’t going to fly to Sydney to catch a domestic flight to Melbourne or Brisbane when you can fly there direct. Even for people coming from or going to Sydney, it seems a bit silly to make them go to the already congested Sydney airport to just to catch a train to or from Canberra airport – why not provide the service direct from feeder areas?

My last trip overseas my flights were Canberra -> Sydney -> Narita -> (by bus) -> Hanaeda -> Sapporo. A different trip was Brisbane -> Sydney -> Honolulu -> Vancouver.
Going domestically I try and get a direct flight from here to Brisbane, but will on occasion have to go via Sydney due to lack of seats at the right time.

From here to Cairns or Townsville means transitting through Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane. It’s not always straight forward depending on where and when you want to go.

#15
Fluges4:38 pm, 15 Feb 12
#16
Jivrashia4:41 pm, 15 Feb 12

Talk about noise pollution from air traffic, can someone from North Watson, who live somewhat under the take-off flight path, comment?

#17
Bramina6:21 pm, 15 Feb 12

I think Barry is assuming that our nimbys are less nimby than his nimbys.

#18
PrinceOfAles7:33 pm, 15 Feb 12

Jivrashia said :

Talk about noise pollution from air traffic, can someone from North Watson, who live somewhat under the take-off flight path, comment?

I live on Aspinall St just over the back of Mt Majura and never ever hear a thing.

#19
screaming banshee8:17 pm, 15 Feb 12

Presumably Barry thinks that contaminating Canberra with that sort of noise won’t be a big deal. I’d suggest they (NSW) should be made to pay substantially for shifting their inconvenience. But wait, they’re broke.

There is plenty of justification for high speed rail without turning canberra into an east coast freight hub. And dont for one minute think we wont be landed with midnight arrivals of international freight.

#20
Bramina10:01 pm, 15 Feb 12

PrinceOfAles said :

Jivrashia said :

Talk about noise pollution from air traffic, can someone from North Watson, who live somewhat under the take-off flight path, comment?

I live on Aspinall St just over the back of Mt Majura and never ever hear a thing.

It’s so loud that you’re deaf?

#21
astrojax10:02 pm, 15 Feb 12

i want a slow train to sydney… oh, wait. it’d take six minutes before canberra got a curfew and eleventeen years before a useful rail link, so doomed to failure as an option.

badgery’s creek, again, anyone?

#22
Gungahlin Al10:24 pm, 15 Feb 12

Surely the hugest case of NIMBYism ever from the NSW Premier?

I wake to the dulcet tones of the first morning flights every day as they loop around Gungahlin. And despite the Airport’s grandstanding in their Master Plan about supporting changes to the Noise Abatement Zone boundaries, they quite happily stood aside while AirServices Australia said nah bugger off. And it seems Federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese – despite signing off on aforesaid plan – is happy to let this slide too.

I’d hate to see their grand freight hub vision come off. People just have no concept about how much noisier it would become, compared to the near silence we have at night now. Sydney’s noise should stay in Sydney

#23
shauno12:06 am, 16 Feb 12

RedDogInCan said :

I’m obviously missing something here. If you have just arrived at an airport from overseas, why would you want to travel to another airport? It’s not like Sydney, or anywhere in Australia even, is a travel hub – most passengers are at the end of their journey when they get here.

It doesn’t even make sense for domestic connections. For a start you aren’t going to fly to Sydney to catch a domestic flight to Melbourne or Brisbane when you can fly there direct. Even for people coming from or going to Sydney, it seems a bit silly to make them go to the already congested Sydney airport to just to catch a train to or from Canberra airport – why not provide the service direct from feeder areas?

It would probably be something like in the UK where the smaller airports around London like Gatwick and Stansted, Luton are used for lower cost airlines and freight mostly. So Canberra could be the same and people would pay a cheaper fare to fly to Canberra instead of Sydney. They could bundle the train ticket in their fare. And if they build the VFT properly would only be an hour to Sydney, Be bloody expensive to build though but easy for this govt having wasted 14 billion on school halls and probably 50 to 70 billion on a white elephant NBN so another 10 billion on the VFT no worries.

#24
shauno12:33 am, 16 Feb 12

steveu said :

EvanJames said :

Noise will increase. Flights will happen over all parts of the ACT and surrounding areas. And it will be ALL NIGHT.

This is it. Sydney hate the thought of more aircraft and the noise that they generate, so lets give it to Canberrans instead.

And yep Snow will eventually get to expand his empire. The cynic in me suggests that we cant dodge this one. But I do like the idea of bringing jobs to Canberra with it.

Canberra can still have a curfew just like Sydney has now. Its just that the demand for flights means delays down the line as they cant fit them all in. Canberra would be mad to not pursue this it will be of enormous benefit to Canberra and Australia.

#25
Deref7:30 am, 16 Feb 12

PrinceOfAles said :

Jivrashia said :

Talk about noise pollution from air traffic, can someone from North Watson, who live somewhat under the take-off flight path, comment?

I live on Aspinall St just over the back of Mt Majura and never ever hear a thing.

That’s because there’s a bloody great hill between Watson and the airport. It really was a very smart piece of planning. Contrast with the idiocy of building Queanbeyan suburbs directly under the flight path.

#26
drfelonious7:45 am, 16 Feb 12

I’ll be brutally honest – what’s in it for Canberra?

I think Canberra would only get behind it IF we got a high speed rail link to Sydney (not mere promises of same).

Also wouldn’t hurt if we could get some direct cheap flights to overseas destinations or increase the number of domestic connections.

#27
dungfungus9:00 am, 16 Feb 12

drfelonious said :

I’ll be brutally honest – what’s in it for Canberra?

I think Canberra would only get behind it IF we got a high speed rail link to Sydney (not mere promises of same).

Also wouldn’t hurt if we could get some direct cheap flights to overseas destinations or increase the number of domestic connections.

Answer to your first question is NOTHING.
Answer to your second question is ALL VFT STUDIES SO FAR SHOW IT IS ECONOMICALLY UNVIABLE.
Answer to your third question is HAS BEEN TRIED BEFORE BUT UNVIABLE.

#28
EvanJames10:01 am, 16 Feb 12

screaming banshee said :

And dont for one minute think we wont be landed with midnight arrivals of international freight.

There’s already a surprising number of flights coming in to Canberra after midnight. They route them in over NSW so as not to spook the ACT horses, but with higher volumes of flights coming in, (and taking off) naturally they’ll have spread them around more. Wind direction plays a part, too. The airport is being so very careful to ensure that flight noise affects as few ACT areas as possible, so people don’t get worried about it.

What the airport has planned though, will see a lot more noise, and it will affect a lot more people. All through the night and early hours.

Look at Sydney. They have two runways sticking out into the ocean. How then does plane noise affect so many people? Think about it.

#29
EvanJames10:11 am, 16 Feb 12

dungfungus said :

drfelonious said :

I’ll be brutally honest – what’s in it for Canberra?

I think Canberra would only get behind it IF we got a high speed rail link to Sydney (not mere promises of same).

Also wouldn’t hurt if we could get some direct cheap flights to overseas destinations or increase the number of domestic connections.

Answer to your first question is NOTHING.
Answer to your second question is ALL VFT STUDIES SO FAR SHOW IT IS ECONOMICALLY UNVIABLE.
Answer to your third question is HAS BEEN TRIED BEFORE BUT UNVIABLE.

The benefits would all accrue to Snow, as usual. Like the roadworks around the airport that weren’t budgetted-for, and weren’t needed until Snow built a CBD out there. People have short memories.

And yes, scoping for a VFT keep finding that it’s stunningly expensive, and the benefits don’t justify the expenditure. Just because the private owners of Canberra Airport want one, to help them make more money, doesn’t cut-it as justification to spend billions of taxpayers’ money.

As for all the jobs, jobs are always quoted as the great benefit, like a cargo cult, but the actual numbers in reality tend to be pretty unimpressive.

And when the airport first got to be all international and special, we did have direct flights, from memory there was Fiji and possibly even NZ. Fell in a heap, not enough demand, not surprisingly, and people are accustomed to factoring in a domestic connection. As Deye said further up, it depends on the fare and the route you’re after. I often fly to the US via Brisbane… fares and timings are often more attractive, plus I can avoid those flying death-trap super jumbos for a bit longer.

#30
Grail10:32 am, 16 Feb 12

EvanJames said :

Look at Sydney. They have two runways sticking out into the ocean. How then does plane noise affect so many people? Think about it.

Sydney has two airports. One is smack bang in the middle of Bankstown. There are no flight paths there which can avoid urban areas.

Sponsors
RiotACT Proudly Supports
Advertisement
Copyright © 2014 Riot ACT Holdings Pty Ltd. All rights reserved.