31 January 2008

Canberra's homeless

| Holden Caulfield
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I caught a small snippet of Tony Delroy’s Nightlife program on ABC radio the other night (I think it was Tuesday night). Each night after his quiz he has an issue of the day where he asks punters to call in and ramble on about whatever that night’s issue is. On Tuesday night the discussion topic was homelessness and one guy called in from Canberra. I didn’t catch his name, but he was pretty bitter about our town, and he may have good reason I suppose. I’m not naive enough to deny that Canberra has a homeless problem, but for the most part, it is generally kept pretty quiet. What this guy got me thinking about was, how bad is homelessness in Canberra, and is there more that the more fortunate among us should be doing to help out? For example, in my own pretty comfortable life, I couldn’t even tell you where a homeless shelter is in this city. I think that’s pretty bad.

As a sidenote, I’m sure many will remember the old-ish guy that used to spend a lot of time around Civic, he was usually dressed in a suit and carrying a cardboard box or somesuch. Was sometimes prone to loud verbal discussions, mostly with himself, from his accent I’d say he was of Eastern European descent. You’d often see him in newsagents reading the paper, or whatever. I have’t seen him for quite a few years and I assume he has passed away?

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wow a story from 2008 has been ressurected

Homelessness is for a number of reasons, including:
* Circle of poverty
* Circumstances
* Mental health
* Physical health
* Family breakdown
* Substance abuse (usually from one of the above)
* Violence or abuse in the home
* etc

In my teenage years I have been close to homelessness due to family breakdown and abuse. However, I had also just started university and luckily, I was able to find money and a place to live. Many young and older people do not have these opportunities.

Homeless people are just like me and you. They have had a rough time and had no way to get on their feet.

A great story about homeless people, education and books can be found at ABC: http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2009/08/13/2654649.htm

Deadmandrinking12:06 am 07 Feb 08

@Special G, I have actually known criminals and addicts myself and I’ve been a victim of crime on several occasions, so I hardly think I’m living in a cotton-wool existence when it comes to this. My dad would probably know about this better than most, I’d say – considering he is privy to alot of information the public doesn’t receive.

Your assertion that most of these ‘undesirables’ do crime to get a kick out of it is just plain wrong. It might be the case with a proportion of low-level crimes, i.e. random assault, some theft and some robberies. A proportion of these offenders are usually just the bullies from the schoolyard doing what they do best in the open because they haven’t really grown up like everyone else. That in itself is a gray area too. Bullies usually do what they do because they can’t find any other way to fit into society.

However, I’d say most more serious crimes like armed robbery and burglary would be drug-related. That’s an entirely different issue and requires some serious and committed approaches to get reasonable resolutions. The courts in the ACT are very good at identifying the root causes of alot of crime, but fail to implement any decent solutions. Giving an addict a slap on the wrist and letting him go is hardly going to solve his addiction problem. Prison won’t help much either. Forced rehabilitation, for a start, is a no-brainer. Psychiatric services to help them come to terms with issues they’re trying to flush away with drugs, community service with victims of crime so they can get an understanding of the consequences of their actions, education to help get them back into the work-force. The buck needs to stop at the courts, not postponed while the offender goes to prison for a couple of years or is let back out on the street with no repercussions to stop them doing it again..

@Caf, totally agree with you. The penalties for chop-chop are a lot higher than most illicit substances (because you be messin’ with da TAX OFFICE, foo), so there’d be little point in large-scale supply operations. That, and chop-chop tastes like sh-t. Legalized heroin would mean the government would have control over it’s price (it’s horrendously expensive for what it is on the black market atm) and it’s content, making it safer for addicts and cutting crime out of the equation.

Yeah – they are fully addicted to methodone which is kind of the point.

It means they have to visit a chemist every morning to get their dose, and cannot ever spend a night away from home. It also rots your teeth. town – overseas trips are not possible. These reasons are why the person resisted going on methodone for years, thinking they would give up on their own – which they tried but never gave up for more than a day or two.

Methodone is far from ideal, but at least the person in question has given up stealing from their family and lying constantly, and actually has some money in the bank, has put on some weight and looks less like an acne ridden skeleton.

Addicts are stupid for trying drugs in order to get addicted, but once they are addicted it doesn’t help to keep harping on about that.

Danman, I think it’s you who missed justbands’ point. There’s an incentive to illegally produce/import tobacco and alcohol – avoiding the excise. There wouldn’t be the same incentive with heroin supplied through a heroin trial, so comparing the two is meaningless.

Bit of a difference Danman between home brew/ chop chop and homebake heroin but take your point on board. Like I said theory.

You missed my point.

Tobacco & alcohol are sold via retail outlets (& very heavily taxed). There’s a big, big difference (tax avoidance being the driving force behind black market distribution of tobacco & alcohol).

Supplied heroin=end of black market
Sure – because I mean Tobacco and Alcohol are legalised and certainly there is no fraud in those areas eh ? No one dodging tax excise – illegally producing and selling.

My word not.

Supplied heroin=end of black market. Why would anyone go to the expense and trouble of importing a product that no-one was buying. No street market means no new users means in a generation or two no drug problem. That’s the theory anyway.

“The addict I know well is finally doing well after getting on methodone.”

And now they addicted to metho?

> I’d rather give them methodone or put them on a heroin trial than give them my DVD player and my jewellery box.

An excellent point sepi. I fully supported the idea of the heroin trial. People would say to me “But why should we pay for their smack?”. The answer was of course: “We already do”. It was simply cutting out the middle men.

mmmkay – naturally somebody is holding them down and administering the drugs until they become addicted.

I’d rather give them methodone or put them on a heroin trial than give them my DVD player and my jewellery box.

The addict I know well is finally doing well after getting on methodone.

“but mr evil is clearly so very well informed. do you know the current rates for habits to be kicked? what is ‘most’ here?”

I read it in the Chronicle! 😉

“But most people don’t actually really enjoy the druggie lifestyle, and we should be offering them options to try to give up.”

What, like putting them on Metho, or maybe giving them free heroin?

I meant most addicts want to give up drugs in the sense that most smokers would like to give up. If they could just press a button and be drug-free, they would do it. Unfortunately giving up drugs is really difficult, and requires a few serious stints in a live-in rehab before it can be achieved. Sadly people don’t often get to go to rehab unless they are court ordered to, in which case they are not going in with the right attitude.

But most people don’t actually really enjoy the druggie lifestyle, and we should be offering them options to try to give up.

no, no, ingee – 83.25% are made up on the spot…

but mr evil is clearly so very well informed. do you know the current rates for habits to be kicked? what is ‘most’ here?

The only way most drug addicts give up drugs is by doing a Heath or a River.

Ingeegoodbee10:07 am 06 Feb 08

Interestingly enough Special G, I was reading in a paper last week (possibly SMH but too far back to remember now) that crime stats for NSW over the 2006-06 period indicated a continuing trend downwards for property crime. The analysis/commentary was that this was attributed to a combination of a long term reduction in the easy availability of heroin and the increased strength of the economy which apparently meant a lot more young men were in the workforce rather than drugged up on the dole and climbing through people windows to pinch peoples DVD players – so maybe, given a choice between a job and drugs there’s a measurable trend towards getting a job.

OT, but the other point in the article was that despite a measurable drop in crimes across the board the community felt more insecure and trusted the police less – compared to 5-6 years previously when crime rates where higher and the community felt safer and trusted the police more.

Then again all this was based on statistics, of which approximately 87% are made up on the spot.

Holden Caulfield9:23 am 06 Feb 08

This next post is simly to spam Holden a bit more.

Haha, thank you for your concern.

You can join in too Ingee there’s sace for your tongue as well.

Sepi – where are you getting your information that most drug addicts genuinely wish to give up – sure they want to give up the drugs, get a job and be a contributing member of society – What a crock of shit.

Why bother guys. Is it BigDave as in I have a BigCar but a small dick?

Ingeegoodbee10:15 pm 05 Feb 08

Go on “Big”Dave, lets see you stick your tongue all the way up his arse …

Special G, that is easily the most sensible post on this whole damn thread. It’s very unfortunate that not enough people think this way, or have the balls to stand up and say it. I firmly believe we wouldn’t be seeing half the problems that we are now…

People may like taking drugs, but most genuinely wish to give up at some point. Unfortunately rehabs never have space at the moment when an addict decides to stop, and they are just told to ring every couple of days to see if a space opens up.

We need far more rehab places, and different grades of rehab – lock-up rehab for offenders, and a nicer version for people who choose to try on their own initiative.

This next post is simly to spam Holden a bit more.

DMD your last post says a lot about where a large number of your comments come from. You need to get out in the real world a bit and actually see what happens – its a real eye opener. Most people live in their little cotton wool bubbles that never come into contact with the ‘undesirables’ of society and therefore have the view that it is some how societies fault that the poor little petals commit crimes.

What it comes down to is most of the undesirables like what they do – they like taking drugs (reasons why rehab doesn’t work, they like the adrenaline rush of committing crimes/police chases/bashing people for shits and giggles, and they feel that society owes them.

Then there are people like you who treat them with kid gloves when realistically they need a big stick.

Take ‘life without barriers’ for example – barriers are exactly what they need. Society is about laws and the like otherwise we can go back to living in caves and the biggest and badest of us will come out on top.

There’s no doubt at all that people get stuck for a range of reasons, including becoming homeless. But with repeat offender criminals I think there comes a point where you have to stand up and take some responsibility for yourself. I know people who have managed to do this. The biggest problem the justice system has is that it seems to perpetuate the view that the criminal is the victim, and needs to be protected at all costs. At some point, criminal behaviour needs to be managed. It’s a bit like bringing up children, really. If you don’t give them firm and sensible boundaries they naturally push until they find one, which generally results in a negative outcome for all concerned.

Deadmandrinking3:47 pm 05 Feb 08

I speak to my dad who deals with repeat offenders every day at his work. Whilst he cannot share any individual details for legal reasons, he does assure me that the legal system doesn’t work well for many of this 5%. Broken homes, drug addictions from foolish mistakes made at foolish ages – crime is a grey area when it comes to offenders. Of course there’s always purely selfish d-kheads, but there’s going to be five for every one that turns to crime with a portion of their reasons beyond their control. For this reason, I wouldn’t call them undesirables. I’d call them people that need help.

I especially don’t like the term undesirables being used to describe the homeless. The assertion that the homeless are merely people too lazy to work is tired and just lame. Think about how much it would suck to be homeless. Personally, if I was faced with losing my home and income, I’d turn to friends/family members to help. For those who don’t have any…

In a law enforcement sense, I’d expect it normal that 5% of people consumed 95% of the police’s time.

DMD what do you mean there is no such thing as a group of undesirables – go speak to someone in corrections/courts/police and ask them if they deal with the same repeat offenders all the time.

do they, sepi? do they?? how do you know that, then..?

i concur entirely with dead man, big ego, err dave, is the real undesirable here. are you with him, or ag’in him, sep?

And even the really undesirables do have families who would prefer they didn’t starve/freeze to death.

Yes WMD, but I’m the ICBM version, to your 56 Barrel Howitzer.

Deadmandrinking4:28 pm 04 Feb 08

“Suffice to say, I was just having a stab at WMD cause I had nothing to say that hadn’t already been said by others.”

So that would be ummm….shooting rockets for the sake of explosions?

BigDave, there’s no such thing as a select group of ‘undesirables’ who cause all the problems. Bankruptcy, extreme personal tragedy and mental illness can happen to anyone. The only undesirables I can really see are the ones who kick people who have suffered the above when they’re down.

Holden Caulfield3:22 pm 04 Feb 08

@Mælinar – thank you, I kind of new about email rules etc, but never looked into it. That should work.

Learn to love email rules and filters…

They all come from the same addy Caulfield, pretty easy to send to a subdirectory called ‘RiotACT’ or straight to ‘Deleted Items’ if you are that way inclined.

I feel your pain (having hosted similar threads) Mr Caulfield.

Holden Caulfield2:57 pm 04 Feb 08

Oh man, will someone at RA HQ *please* read my message asking for the email notifications to this thread to be switched off!

😛

I made no reference to BigDave’s comment, which I find quite unreasonable also.

Most will remember my attacks on Trough-Dweller Foskey whilst sponsoring the bible reading homeless guy as somebody who could move into her house – unfortunately he has disappeared in recent times, I do fear for the worse although the bible may have directed him Northward for warmer climes.

Suffice to say, I was just having a stab at WMD cause I had nothing to say that hadn’t already been said by others.

not sure, maelinar, that was an appropriate response – i thought dmd’s comment to big dave entirely reserved (given his reputation).

big dave obviously has a big ego and doesn’t need the rest of us, ’cause some of us just aren’t up to his exacting standards (seems like it wouldn’t matter if there might be some quite pertinent extenuating circumstances for that) so we all better take a long running jump with our derelict friends and leave this big desert island to him and his obnoxious kin…

BigDave, A brief history of why I call DMD WMD – he shoots rockets just for the sake of hearing explosions.

Just like the Iraqi WMD program, you’ll find that there really isn’t any infrastructure when you start looking.

I don’t have any of my own problems DMD, only those caused by other people. A desert island would, perhaps, be perfect in that case. Maybe we should send Canberra’s undesirables there instead. How pleasant and safe Civic would be for us all!!
Why don’t you go and take that long running jump yourself. Preferably near a cliff, you little twat.

Ingeegoodbee8:32 am 04 Feb 08

Agreed … a profound misunderstanding of what constitutes reality and possibly with just a wiff of pretension to new money.

Charming.

Deadmandrinking10:01 pm 03 Feb 08

BigDave, why don’t you go live on an small deserted island where only your problems will matter. The rest of us are living in a society known as Australia.

The homeless can go take one long running jump as far as I’m concerned. They’re obnoxious, they’re a waste of my hard earned tax dollars and they stink of piss.

Deadmandrinking7:28 pm 03 Feb 08

Saw it too Sands, it was awesome. Why is good graffiti still a crime?

Headbone, I suggest you take a good long look at your own life and try to work out how many times merely being who you are and being given what you have has kept you from losing your accommodation. I assume you’ve been housed for at least 15 years by your parents or guardians, I assume your address has allowed you to claim benefits in between jobs, I assume you don’t suffer from any mental illness that severely affects how you function in society.

Who gives a shit about the homeless? Most of them are homeless by choice – drug, criminal, or otherwise. FFS.

Whilst I question the 900 a night figure there are definitely quite a few rough sleepers, some of whom choose not to avail themselves of the refuges because that would inveigle them into a case management system which would try and shift them out of their current way of life. They make a choice not to have someone else telling them how to live their lives. Pretty much all the local crisis accommodation services are run by charities in Canberra – St V de P, Anglicare etc

There are others who are less obvious – the couch surfers and family squatters who are living with friends and relations, under sufferance most of the time. When you consider that a good number of those that are homeless under these circumstances are kids with one or other of their parents then we really do need to see some action from housing providers otherwise the implication for those kids with respect to moving out of the poverty trap is dire.

Many of those now homeless have additional problems – escaping domestic violence, mental health diagnoses and substance abuse issues for example. Services in those areas are also desperately needed.

There but for the grace of whatever deity you may believe in, go we all – it doesnt take much to rock one’s world. The rough sleepers are just the tip of a much bigger iceberg!

As for Rudd spending a night in his car – I heard it was a VW Kombi! That is just one huge beatup!

They have a choice whether they work, whether they take drugs, whether they gamble etc etc.

no, nemo, many people who have debilitating gambling or drug addictions do not have a choice in this, rather it is a neurological condition manifesting itself through these actions – actions which many others of us do have achoice to participate in or not.

like i say, go wander round the psych ward at any large hospital and look at those in there and ask yourself if you still think they can – at this moment – ‘participate in society’ in the way you and i [and even maelinar ;)] do…

btw, if i was a keewee i’da said “choice bro, eh…” while raising my chin slightly.

Yep I agree. Saw a poor kid on the telly the other day who dropped out and was all depressed because he couldn’t get a job. He was encouraging kids to stay in school. But he was still a kid himself! Like I’ve said before, I was 21 before I took myself off to do the adult entry test for uni. It opened up so many opportunities.

A bit OT but I saw some graffiti a while ago near babars in civic that said “Stay in school or you’ll be scrubbing shit like this off walls” (or something like that).

Also a lot of people make a poor choice (to take drugs or move out of home) at 14 or 15, and are then stuck with the ramifications for the rest of their lives.

I really think more and better options for rehab, as well as a lock-up rehab option would help a lot.

There are lots of things over which people have no choice. You can’t choose your parents for instance. It’s silly to suggest that everybody can ‘choose’ what happens to them.

Astro, i think the choice is about how they participate in society.
They have a choice whether they work, whether they take drugs, whether they gamble etc etc.

If you choose to participate in society your chance of becoming homeless is greatly reduced.

POST PHOTOS…………………! 🙂

Gungahlin Al5:17 pm 01 Feb 08

Now why have I always assumed otherwise VY?
Be careful – a property portofolio, all of the above, AND photos! You’re going to cause some of the boys some sleepless nights…

I’m a chick and I’m hot, and yes I like other chicks. So… who wants to see some photos?

Typsy McStaggers3:37 pm 01 Feb 08

I just wanted to be the 100th comment. thkubye

Deadmandrinking3:28 pm 01 Feb 08

Pussy. See ya.

I’m not into suffering fools. Goodbye.

Deadmandrinking3:21 pm 01 Feb 08

Maybe I’m not ‘in’, but I fail to see an issue with VY liking chicks.

WMD, VYBerlinaV8 has been going on about hot chicks for much longer than you have been around. Get some time up and you will get to learn the inside joke, until then, shut the f-ck up.

My reaction to seeing “choice. you’re too lucky to have one; don’t belittle those with none.” was to think “Astrojax is a kiwi?”

Deadmandrinking2:54 pm 01 Feb 08

Btw, Maelinar, just so you know. Some girls do like other girls and not just in porn.

Actually, I’ll submit that one for tagline status.

Choice. you’re too lucky to have one; don’t belittle those with none. Comment by astrojax — February, 2008

anyone who has posted above asserting that homelessness is a choice should go out and find us someone who has wilingingly made that choice and actually has alternative choices, then come back and tell us about it. otherwise, go and hang out by the soup kitchen van in civic or up by ainslie village for a couple of hours and chat to some of the poor bods who avail themselves of this service, or go chat to the police or the psych workers who deal with these people day to day.

choice. you’re too lucky to have one; don’t belittle those with none.

Gungahlin Al2:31 pm 01 Feb 08

PS: Mael, don’t ask him about his “position” in that sort of scenario – we’ll get altogether too much info…

Gungahlin Al2:30 pm 01 Feb 08

VY there’s a difference between being a woman and being an old woman… 🙂

So VYBerlinaV8, how does this affect your position on both chicks being hot ?

Ill be whatever you want if the dosh is good…

I am a woman.

la mente torbida12:37 pm 01 Feb 08

@Ralph
ROTFLMAO

I hear a rumour that Jey is not a bloke as well.

Kittykat & Nemo. Riot doesnt capture any information about the gender of our readership or registered users so we honestly cant say who’s saying what.

However if you feel the veiws represented do not reflect your sex feel free to get all the girls you know to join in shout down the guys.

“And I rather spend money on this than Al Grassby wank feel good statues.”

This, specifically, is why I have a problem with spending public money on things that noone but special interest groups really want.

There are all sorts of people who become homeless, for a variety of reasons. I know professionals who earn 6 figures a year that spend so rampantly that missing a couple of monthly pays would send ’em onto the street.

That said, I think the solution needs to be more directive, ie ‘we will help you, but you need to do what we say’. This will include training on basic living skills, money management, and one on one assistance in getting through processes for securing accomodation, employment, etc, as well as counselling, to help people work through their issues.

For people who have mental issues and substance problems, I think we need to take a much more proactive approach in helping them. People will genuine medical issues (and I don’t include drug abusers in this category) should be looked after by government funded facilities and programs. We are a wealthy country, and need to make room for this. The drug abusers can be directed toward an appropriate program. The Salvos do some great stuff, maybe we could send some public money their way to help.

What I am dead against, however, is allowing people to drift in and out of facilities and programs, without any concerted effort to help them really get on their feet properly.

Get rid of the welfare state, and let the churches re-assume the role of providing assistance to the needy.

They were always effective at sorting people into the poor and the undeserving poor.

Drunkards and other vagrants can be left to starve to death.

Holden Caulfield10:25 am 01 Feb 08

@wishuwell, thank you, but please don’t feel as though you’re under any obligation to to tell your story. If you’re comfortable in doing so it will most likely help me and others gain a better understanding of what leads a person to homelessness. And also to get a better definition of what being homeless can actually entail.

From the brief feedback I heard on the radio show the other night it was apparent that many homeless people lead otherwise “normal” lives, so there is a lot for people like me to learn, as one who has been fortunate enough to be shielded from such issues.

The only real contact with homelessness came when I was at high school and in the St VdP society. We went to Ozanam House in Melbourne to help out for a day and I remember serving dinner to a guy and he asked where we were from. He then replied, “oh you’re in year 11, I’ll probably be marking your VCE exams next year.” And that kind of spun me out as, like many others, until then I had always assumed homeless meant really living on the extreme edge of society rather than sometimes being able to seamlessly blend in to other aspects of a “normal” life.

Nemo – it would appear my advice to you regarding female hairdressers earlier was inappropriate – I was under the impression you were a male.

My most humble of apologies.

As far as advice on laptops during storms go, what has been said already is reasonable advice. Even if there was a powercut, your battery would take over. It is possible for a surge to come through, but most usually this is handled by your battery pack, and not your laptop.

In the first instance, that little black box between the powercord and the battery pack would fry.

In the second instance your battery would fail.

In the third instance, your laptop would fry.

Essentially you have triple redundancy – as far as wifi goes there’s inbuilt earthing in the telecom cables, and some powerpoints have an earthing facility inbuilt into them (you’ll know if you have one as you have to plug your telephone line into one end, and plug your modem into the adjacent outlet), and are fairly resilient – I’m aware of people making landline calls when their house is completely underwater.

@Holden Caulfield, not ducking just time problems. The causes I may revisit at a later post(may someone could start a thread on the causes) but the help received was from an Perth CES officer(did say it was a few years ago) who bent the rules considerably set up accounts for me dodged around background and ID issues, I had no way to prove who I was and then if that wasn’t enough gave me a room clothes and food.

Wow, even i’m not as much an asshole as you Grundy.. while there are possibly people that do deliberately “drop off” so to speak, i’m sure there are people for who bad things have happened.

It’s a shame 🙁

There’s one guy who is camped out in the bushes out the back of the legislative assembly over from the short stay carpark. He patrols the car park every night and checks the change tray’s for some extra cash.

I’m surprised none of the tightarses from legislative have gone over and told him to move.

Deadmandrinking1:00 am 01 Feb 08

I hate seeing people picking butts off the ground and smoking them. On a number of occasions, I’ve stepped in and given them a fresh smoke or two. It’s the least I can do.

I often give change too. I sometimes find that part difficult. There’s a few I’ve given to regularly, including one bloke in belco who claimed he needed it for his meds. I saw him in the Labor club one night, buying drinks and heading back to the poker machine. It’s always a toss-up. Professional panhandling (i.e. panhandling for cash to spend on luxuries instead of basic needs) can be a lucrative business if you take morality and dignity out of the equation. Whilst I have no doubt the pro panhandlers have problems of their own, I don’t have that much money myself and I would rather see the money that I do give away helping the really downtrodden survive. Not that this stops me giving change of course.

The problem is huge and it’s only going to get more huge. Within the next five years, we will be in the grip of a recession. There are already middle-class and working-class people in Sydney with debts running to the million dollar mark. The waiting period for and the availability of public housing needs to be improved drastically. I agree with Nemo in that it should be short term to help people find their feet.

Kittycat, although the basic side of me envies the rent you pay, I would recommend finding someplace on the market to rent if you can afford it. It’s hard, I know. I’ve just run the gauntlet of finding a new place at a price I can afford and I’ve only just managed to get myself set up for a couple of months. But at least you have the luxury of stable accommodation while you’re looking.

Needy? Define needy? What the *#@* re ou talking about? Im loving my Tocomwal in O’connor!! Which i intend to buy very soon….

Nemo said:
Do you reckon it’s best to turn the laptop off when there’s a storm? I’ve got wireless internet and I’m running off battery at the moment. Does that mean it’s OK?
Yes. You’re worried about lightning travelling down copper lines (phone/power) during a storm. No wires to the laptop, no reason to turn it off – but your modem is still at risk, as it’s plugged into the phone and power lines.

kittycat said:
No…i dont [pay market rates]! That would be about $300+ more p/w than what i pay right now…Why would i pay market rent? Canberra rents are overated anyway.
Kittycat, I suspect there are people more needy than you who could make use of your accommodation. If you think Canberra rents are over-rated, you are move than welcome to move interstate.

Just feels like a boys club…

hanknks
Thanks Nemo! Hope the boys dont mind!!!

I would rather be in Kiera Knightly than a govie.

How is it a boys club?

No…i dont! That would be about $300+ more p/w than what i pay right now…Why would i pay market rent? Canberra rents are overated anyway. When did that happen?

They can move in to your house ant on the farm.

KittyCat – Im a girl, i totally agree regarding the boys club.

ABS stats for 2001 indicate around 1200 ‘homeless’ in the ACT (including primary, secondary and tertiary homeless).

I didnt realise the homless completed the census? especially when some have mental conditons etc

Just out of curiosity, do you pay market rent kittycat?

Its not rough to force people out, happens in private rental all the time, properties get sold, owners move in etc etc. Most people deal with it.

There is an expectation from public tenants that once they move in, they wont be moving out.

Public Housing should be short term and for those who really need it, once back on your feet move along and let someone else in.

Tax payers shouldnt have to foot the bill for new govt houses. there are plenty already out there.

If people want secure tenure, improve their skills/ education, get a better job, save money and buy their own place.

Love the riotact!! Seems like a bit of a boys club though….. As a Govie tenant, im amazed by the situation in my street with 1 or 2 tenants living in 3/4 bedroom houses!! For many years, mind you.

It’s there primarily for people in need, but it is a bit rough to force people to move out of their home once their life situation starts to pick up (not to mention a serious disincentive to improving their own lot!).

I don’t think (genuine) market rent housing would be “Government funded”, any more than private rental properties are “investor funded”. If anything, the market renters would be subsidising the increase in capital worth of the public housing stock pool.

But is ACT housing a rental agency, or there for people in need?

If you are paying market rent (and have done so for a period of time) you shouldnt be entitled to a Govt house.

At what point is someone to take responsibility for supporting themselves and move out of Govt funded housing.

Nemo: Or, the relevant authority could be directed to keep a certain level of stock of houses for people in need, over and above those occupied by people now paying market rents. And the market rents need to be regularly reviewed to ensure that they are, in fact, market rents.

A guy pitcured in the CT article on homeless shelters and lack of space/funding last week had come up to Canberra from the south coast to sell a coin collection. He has been on the DSP since only a few months after his wife left him – about 6y from memory. Hmmm I thought it was a homeless shelter not somewhere for people from elsewhere to stay when they can’t afford a motel!?

Old Mr Cardboard is still around? He used to shuffle past the CES in the Melbourne Building (now some fake irish pub), fighting with his imaginary friend, carrying his cardboard home.

There was also Mr Cigarette Butts, a youngish messy fellow who variously carried a sleeping bag, or wore it, or a large brightly decorated blanket. He would find cigarette butts on the ground and smoke them.

there were various others, too. Our prime minister was homeless for a short time, when the family was evicted from their home.

Homelessness is not a simple, easy thing. Many people suffer from various mental problems and take to the streets, others end up there. When we start to hate them for it, we might as well call ourselves Americans and be done with it. Let’s try to look after them instead. The Salvos run a shelter, with beds and showers and food. They can come and go as they need to, it’s their choice, those who prefer to keep moving.

popgoescanberra9:23 pm 31 Jan 08

Saw the guy you are talking about buying something or other at Supabarn on Tuesday night about 8pm.

Sad to think there are such numbers of homeless people in such a rich town. It’s weird.

Convert the homeless in to Soylent Green. Followed by the druggies in Garema Place.

No sympathy. Own fault.

Why would anyone ‘choose’ to live in a bus shelter and beg for money on the streets. I don’t think it is as simple as laziness myself.

Hey Hevs, I know you used to have to an address to receive dole cheques, but surely they do it electronically now. I wouldn’t have a clue, but sending bits of paper in the mail seems like dark ages stuff. Surely they still don’t do it that way, do they?

BTW, there’s a huge storm out Lake George way. Do you reckon it’s best to turn the laptop off when there’s a storm? I’ve got wireless internet and I’m running off battery at the moment. Does that mean it’s OK?

That’s OK Grundy, I’m alright, it’s just that I have to spend most of my time apologising to people. It’s like taking nasty pills. 🙂 I even apologised to Troy once, sincerely!

I have seen family members endure chemo, I hope you’re coping ok? It really knocks the life out of everyone I’ve seen go through it!

Sorry Grundy, part of this chemo thing is that you just go overboard with the empathy thing. Like, I feel sorry for just about everybody. Troy Williams excepted, of course. No, hang on, I even feel sorry for Troy, ‘cos he’s a lib, poor bloke.

I agree with Grundy to a point. There are plenty of jobs around, some people choose not to help themselves.

Perhaps changes need to be made to Govt Housing to make it a temporary help while you get yourself on your feet, rather than life/long term tenure. Remove the people who dont actually need to be in Govt housing and there would be plenty of room for the homeless.

Haves – They dont need to post a cheque to an address, a bank account is sufficient.

Remember Wednesday is soylent green day

Holden Caulfield5:41 pm 31 Jan 08

If wishuwell feels okay in doing so, I’d like to learn more about the circumstances that led to you being homeless and how you managed to get back on track.

How would you actually get a dole cheque if you have no fixed address? They don’t just post them to a box you know. It’s a cycle. Once you’re in it it’s bloody hard to get out of.
I’d recommend Grundy should go and help out in a soup kitchen and see what it’s like. Maybe get a few stories from people and see just how easy it is to slip off the radar.

Can’t we just shoot them, like they do in Rio?

No problem Fluges. Nice to meet you. 🙂

Oh, and I’m on chemotherapy myself, that’s how I know what hopelessness feels like. And why I can’t spell despise and disgust.

By the way Grundy, ‘Fluges’ is not an online identity that I’m hiding behind. I’ve always been known as ‘Fluges’, all my life. A lot of people who read RA would know who I am – ‘Fluges’, ex-director of the Gypsy Bar. They’ve never known me as anything else. And, sorry, but people who show no compassion for those worse off than themselves, no matter how they got themselves in that situation, digust me. Full stop.

(And if Jessica Wright is reading, I wholeheartedly support liquifying our homeless into industrial lubricants, support queer divorce, and support Jacqui Burke as our current Police Minister)

Up until we start getting the early frosts, Mt Ainslie, Red Hill, and Black Mountain (not far from shops, few cars) are a fairly easy place to find long-term homeless.
For the highly visible ones, just look for the sheets of plastic strung up between trees, some of them go for the more camoflagued option.

But once the frosts kick in they either start finding better accomodation or suffer hypothermia, pneumonia or any other form of cold-related illness.

Canberra’s homeless problem is even more hidden, because if you’re homeless, this is a crap place to live – plenty of other places are warmer.
I discovered this by spending four years recently in Brisbane, where the problem is much worse.

la mente torbida4:19 pm 31 Jan 08

@wishuwell
some give a helping hand without expectation…except the hope it will be passed along..it sounds like that is the case with you

Some people just have addictive personalities though. Otherwise no-one would smoke cigarettes unless by choice…

Ingeegoodbee4:10 pm 31 Jan 08

I’d say the majority of junkies are just self medicating for some bigger issue.

Holden Caulfield4:09 pm 31 Jan 08

@ la mente torbida

Thanks for those stats. Pretty sobering really.

I get what grundy is saying, it’s just that in a few years time he’ll probably be able to word it better.

I’m pretty sure there percentage of people who actively choose to live on the streets would be pretty low, if not zero.

As for those who choose to live on welfare, and are in public housing, for example, then yeah, that percentage may be a bit higher.

Dumb typo. I meant to say you should be able to afford the essentials and pay the rent.

Sometimes the smallest thing can be the catalyst that leads to homelessness, and having been homeless a number of years ago it is something I’ll never forget. Nor will I forget the help and kindness recieved from a particular person who put me back on track, didn’t have to but did anyway. I say give back when at all possible.

but you have a choice before you can get addicted to something 🙂

la mente torbida4:03 pm 31 Jan 08

ABS stats for 2001 indicate around 1200 ‘homeless’ in the ACT (including primary, secondary and tertiary homeless).

Of these, around 6% (~70 people) are ‘primary’ homeless…not in shelter or temporary accommodation of any kind.

Unfortunately, there is no further breakdown of the figures except by age and gender so am unable to find facts to slap grundy down (‘though his attitude offends me greatly).

I have only witnessed two homeless people that appear so by choice…both very well organised and living out of cars.

The remaining homeless I have encountered in Canberra (maybe another 15 – 20) all appear to be suffering from mental health or drug issues.

Grundy has a point, just not really worded correctly. In theory, as long as you spend your dole payments wisely (ie not alcohol, gambling, smokes or drugs), you should be able to the essentians and pay the rent.

I don’t think they choose to be homeless, people have addictions and people are just not good with money. Its a result of addiction more than a choice.

Yeah, it’s frustrating to watch people who wont help themselves. I really like that line from the child sponsor ad “they wanted a hand up, not a hand out”. Actually, I don’t know what the ad is for, but it’s a great line!

Sands, thank you for the comment. It is what I should have clarified in my first post.
I have nothing against those let down by society and admire those who give their time to support them.

I just can’t tolerate those who chose a lifestyle or chose not to do something about their situation when the opportunity is there to get off the streets and have a better life.

Grundy might have been referring to drug addicts or people who gamble away their money. As sad as it is that this happens, there are public services to help people out of such ruts. We’re an incredibly lucky country and have access to a lot of help. But the rest – yeah, they’re let down by society.

Tis cool. Everyone has a right to an opinion – however because things often aren’t black and white it’s the generalisations and lumping people into ‘categories’ that people will attack.

I’d say you voiced your opinion as things being black OR white. So you presented both sides of the extreme. People will often then try and point out the grey area in the middle.

If you have experiences of people choosing to be on the streets then that could also help support an opinion you’ve formed : )

Many of the homeless ‘hangout’ in the bushes on the corner of Northborne and City Circle (about 100m up the highway on the AFP side). I encountered a small plastic tent city on a run when i got lost.

Ingeegoodbee3:31 pm 31 Jan 08

With the exception of the odd “recreational” homeless teenager who experiments with sleeping rough over the summer holidays as an alternative to living with the rules set by Mum and Dad – I’d say the majority of homless types could probably be classed as suffering from some form of mental illness … honestly, who would, given an alternative, choose to live rough?

Ingeegoodbee3:27 pm 31 Jan 08

Yep, and his first name is Reg!

haha in advance if your real name is grundy.

Typsy, I think I should be saying that I have no sympathy for those that COULD be in a better situation but are too lazy to do anything about it.

I am not informed at all about how many of the 900+ in that shelter would be classed as ‘lazy’ but for everyone else there, they definitely deserve help.

Howdy, good points and I will take the comments on board. As you saw, I have likely had a fortunate life and I have had it easy compared to others.

Fluges, I love RiotACT. If your opinion differs to someone else, you are instantly sent to the slaughter. Thank you for understanding that since I consider some people to be in a situation that could be prevented or resolved, that means I have no compassion or empathy for the rest of humanity.
(Did I mention that I despise animals like you that hide behind online identities and make unnecessary personal attacks because someone had a different opinion to you?)

Grundy’s got it right – homelessness in Canberra is a choice – why would you choose to be homeless in Canberra when you coud hitchhike up to QLD and be homeless somewhere with warmer weather.

I remember that old guy, yeah haven’t seen him around for a while.

There used to be this really fat old lady, and she would always be with her 2 adult sons. They used to hang around the Canberra Centre alot and sleep at the Watson bus shelter in front of the channel TEN studios. I remember seeing them again on the Gold Coast a couple of months later. That was totally bizarro, they must head north for the summer.

I thought I might share these lyrics from the Lazy Boy song “Underwear Goes Inside The Pants”:

There are homeless people everywhere.
This homeless guy asked me for money the other day.
I was about to give it to him and then I thought he was going to use it on drugs or alcohol.
And then I thought, that’s what I’m going to use it on.
Why am I judging this poor bastard.
People love to judge homeless guys. Like if you give them money they’re just going to waste it.
Well, he lives in a box, what do you want him to do? Save it up and buy a wall unit?
Take a little run to the store for a throw rug and a CD rack? He’s homeless.
I walked behind this guy the other day.
A homeless guy asked him for money.
He looks right at the homeless guy and says why don’t you go get a job you bum.
People always say that to homeless guys like it is so easy.
This homeless guy was wearing his underwear outside his pants.
Outside his pants. I’m guessing his resume isn’t all up to date.
I’m predicting some problems during the interview process.
I’m pretty sure even McDonalds has a “underwear goes inside the pants” policy.
Not that they enforce it really strictly, but technically I’m sure it is on the books.

Sorry – ‘to some than others’

Point scoring over the homeless Nah not impressed. Do we need to go back to the days of Lang Hancock when he was asked how we could help the poor. His reply was “by not becoming one of them”

Grundy – Money comes easier to others. Some people are more employable than others, some have more fortunate upbringinings and education. Some people have experienced past trauma, some have lived in a protected bubble their whole life.

People are not identical, some are high earning management material and others have personalities that see them in a losing fight with their employer after a week.

If they are your wedding pics grundy then money appears to have come easily accessible to you at a young age. Hopefully as you get older you will realise that the world is a very different place of cause and affect for a wide variety of people and if you wish to pass such harsh judgment maybe you should stop and find out why they are on the streets first.
(Or if you don’t want to have a chat with a homeless person I’m sure there is plenty of reading material on the subject available…)

And then maybe you could even give them some of your spare cash to buy a meal instead of constantly indulging yourself and your opinions of those worse off than you : )

Typsy McStaggers2:06 pm 31 Jan 08

So Grundy, of the presumed 900 homeless people in Canberra, in your ‘informed’ opinion, how many fit into your excluded category of “mental or other disabilities”? And please define “other disabilities”, would this mean physical? Does this include substance addiction?

Where is the shelter? Is it that place in Barton?

To answer your question, I would consider the estimate by the Canberra Shelter of 900 homeless people in Canberra at any one time fairly reliable, on account they are the people on the front line.

Yes, I said nine hundred at any one time.

gun street girl1:29 pm 31 Jan 08

Pretty big exception to the rule, there…

Grundy, animals like you disgust me. I hope one day you have to experience chemotherapy and see how that effects your brain chemicals. I would like to see you suffer depression and all it’s psychosomatic side effects, all completely beyond your control. Then I hope you lie in a gutter somewhere so the Grundy’s of this world can give you a kicking as they pass by. I cannot describe how much I dispise people like you, who have no empathy or compassion for their fellow human beings. I hope all your loved ones die slow and horrible deaths just so we can laugh at your grief. What a pig you are.

Did you all click reply before reading…
“(With the exception of mental or other disabilities that prevent you from living that normal life)”

?

Yes grundy, homeless veterans and other citizens are there purely by choice, and are nobody elses problem but their own.
Once they die from tuberculosis, pneumonia, or other preventable infections they have chosen to expose themselves to and not get treated, we should liquify them and turn them into an industrial lubricant, to be made available from our Government shopfronts.

😀

Glad you learned something. 🙂

Homelessness is a choice as far as I care.
Its obvious that being an irate wanker is a choice as well

Good to see we have really compassionate (read ignorant) people in our readership.

perhaps you best go work for a soup kitchen or something for a while – find out the real reasons for homelessness – not your assumed reasons.

Regardless – these people need help – not always a hand out – more often a hand up – not a dimwitted attitude such as your….

If you are not part of the solution then you’re part of the problem.

I agree with grundy to a point. But I recall a segment on Sunrise (that’s another thread altogether) where a reporter would interview the homeless. Their stories were quite unique. Temporary homelessness is a sad fact. Some people get kicked out of their home (yes, adults too) and can’t afford to rent AND pay their exes mortgage. It happens. Don’t forget how fucked up our ‘justice’ system is.

^^
Wow. What an informed comment.

What should we do to help out?

Nothing.

Homelessness is a choice as far as I care.
In this country, everyone has the opportunity to become educated, get a job, rent a house, get health care etc etc…

Those who CHOOSE to be homeless do so because they are too lazy to do what everyone else does and get a job and live a normal working life.
(With the exception of mental or other disabilities that prevent you from living that normal life)

It is ridiculous to consider any form of sympathy when these people have the same opportunity to get the dole, get a job and pay their own way just as the rest of us have to.

These lazy bums probably have a higher income begging for money than our health care and child care workers anyway…

If it’s the one I’m thinking of, he’s still around Holden. Hangs around the TAB near the casino. But I haven’t seen him for a few weeks.

West_Kambah_4eva12:54 pm 31 Jan 08

The casino is open late, hence no real need for a homeless shelter.

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