19 April 2016

Chic Henry and the tram to nowhere?

| Mike Jeffreys
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light rail artist impression

I’ve had a couple of long conversations with Summernats’ Chic Henry, who is tossing up whether to run in the 2016 ACT election.

He told me that the Liberals want him to stand but one of the reasons he hasn’t yet committed is his age. If he were fifteen years younger he’d have no hesitation, but as it is he’s unsure.

He will make a decision by September or October to leave himself time to do what’s needed, including grass roots pre-election work like knocking on doors.

Chic has quite a lot to say about the light rail plan and the possible closure of EPIC:

“There is more value in promoting the very notion of electric cars, trucks and buses in Canberra to support the clean future.

It was moving along for a while and stalled and as usual, unless people of some consequence drive it, it dies. The late Chris Peters had that vision.

A tram to the airport is wasted effort. There is not likely to be enough housing to support it and as for increased tourist visits, the sun may rise in the west before that time.

Canberra airport has great value as a freight hub especially if a VFT is to ever come to us. On another subject, the MAGLEV Consortium had the best plan, as it was to go towards the Snowy Mountains as a route to Melbourne. Good value in that.

If the proposed light rail for Canberra is to be built, the Community deserves to be shown the extent of the network, especially the proposed corridors. Without doubt, we can expect that Civic will be the hub from which all lines will radiate, with connections to Woden and the Valley, Belconnen and Gungahlin of course.

Consideration must be given to the Parliamentary Triangle, Russell, the Airport, Fyshwick and maybe even Queanbeyan.

These corridors and the supporting bus networks must be presented if we are to believe that the Canberra Community could realistically catch the light rail instead of using their cars.

Such corridors will naturally include bridges, overpasses and possible a tunnel somewhere as well as the resumption of specific real estate.

For example, a line through or close by to the Triangle going towards the Tuggeranong Valley will face two major obstacles, the first being our precious lake and the second, the hill on which Parliament House is built.

Let’s consider the bridge, the cost, the land and the public outcry. Right now we are hearing that the cost of Stage 1 is $800 mil or thereabouts.

Guaranteed it will go north of that and it’s on relatively flat ground.

Imagine what the next stage/s will cost.

We are hearing that EPIC may close and the land dedicated to housing. It is without doubt, valuable real estate but where will EPIC be then located?

What might be the cost of such relocation plus the cost of a suitable patch of ground?

Seriously, it is inconceivable that Canberra does not have a showground, especially one as amazingly multi-purpose as EPIC.

We are led to believe that we, as a community, have above average intelligence.

It is immensely important to visualise the future for town planners, so why not give us the big planning picture with reasonable costing and a time frame.

Just maybe, we might get it. Sadly though, we must suffer the political games that parties play.

The late Martin Luther King once said, ‘I have a dream’.

Chic Henry, proud Canberra resident, says ‘I have a fear. A fear that Capital Metro Stage 1 may be the tram to nowhere as the only stage ever built’”.

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The electric driverless car of course will be the hackable electric driverless car that can be controlled by anyone anywhere in the world, as shown this week in California.

MarkE said :

The Canberra Trams proposal is a 18th century solution to a 21st century problem. This Canberra tram project will be obsolete before it is complete.

There are new technologies that we know are on the cusp of being commercialised that the ACT Government is ignoring. We have driverless cars technology almost ready for market. There have been major advances in battery technology and almost everyone has a smart phone. Put the three of them together and people can use a smart phone application to summons an electric driverless car to take them to their destination quickly, cheaply, safely and without parking or drink driving problems. Once this fleet is large enough there will be little incentive for anyone to own a car.

Mum won’t need to spend hours a day driving around town as a taxi service when there is a fleet of driverless cars doing it. There will be a reduction on traffic volumes as half mum’s trips are with a car empty of children. There won’t be Canberra’s constant fleet of empty busses. There will probably be a case for a fleet of articulated busses to run the major trunk roots between town centres but not much more.

The electric driverless cars could even act as storage for the electricity grid at night to smooth out the irregular power production of renewables like solar and wind.

Our Labour/Green ACT Government is so ideologically driven and economically illiterate that they won’t even head their own reports on how marginal this trams project is against current technology let alone emerging technology.

Regards,

Mark Ellis

🙂
Phone: 0412 252588
President
ACT Liberal Democrats

None of that will be necessary as we will build a super fast and cheap wireless NBN and we will all work from home…

…oh that one has gone to Neverland?

Now I read about how we would soon be able to apply fairy dust so we can all fly to work…

MarkE said :

The Canberra Trams proposal is a 18th century solution to a 21st century problem. This Canberra tram project will be obsolete before it is complete.

There are new technologies that we know are on the cusp of being commercialised that the ACT Government is ignoring. We have driverless cars technology almost ready for market. There have been major advances in battery technology and almost everyone has a smart phone. Put the three of them together and people can use a smart phone application to summons an electric driverless car to take them to their destination quickly, cheaply, safely and without parking or drink driving problems. Once this fleet is large enough there will be little incentive for anyone to own a car.

Mum won’t need to spend hours a day driving around town as a taxi service when there is a fleet of driverless cars doing it. There will be a reduction on traffic volumes as half mum’s trips are with a car empty of children. There won’t be Canberra’s constant fleet of empty busses. There will probably be a case for a fleet of articulated busses to run the major trunk roots between town centres but not much more.

The electric driverless cars could even act as storage for the electricity grid at night to smooth out the irregular power production of renewables like solar and wind.

Our Labour/Green ACT Government is so ideologically driven and economically illiterate that they won’t even head their own reports on how marginal this trams project is against current technology let alone emerging technology.

Regards,

Mark Ellis

🙂
Phone: 0412 252588
President
ACT Liberal Democrats

There is obviously an election coming up !

Queus right : Tram lovers, those who think the Tram as mystical transforational powers to make Canberra “grow up”, those who hate cars/car parking spaces & roads, those who can afford the avg.10%pa increase in Annual Rates forever to help pay for the tram, those who believe ACT Gov’t pro tram spin, those who think the population of Canberra is near that of the Gold Coast, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide so we actually need & can afford the tram, those who seriously believe that the tram project will “create” 3,500 jobs, etc. Did I miss anyone ????

The Canberra Trams proposal is a 18th century solution to a 21st century problem. This Canberra tram project will be obsolete before it is complete.

There are new technologies that we know are on the cusp of being commercialised that the ACT Government is ignoring. We have driverless cars technology almost ready for market. There have been major advances in battery technology and almost everyone has a smart phone. Put the three of them together and people can use a smart phone application to summons an electric driverless car to take them to their destination quickly, cheaply, safely and without parking or drink driving problems. Once this fleet is large enough there will be little incentive for anyone to own a car.

Mum won’t need to spend hours a day driving around town as a taxi service when there is a fleet of driverless cars doing it. There will be a reduction on traffic volumes as half mum’s trips are with a car empty of children. There won’t be Canberra’s constant fleet of empty busses. There will probably be a case for a fleet of articulated busses to run the major trunk roots between town centres but not much more.

The electric driverless cars could even act as storage for the electricity grid at night to smooth out the irregular power production of renewables like solar and wind.

Our Labour/Green ACT Government is so ideologically driven and economically illiterate that they won’t even head their own reports on how marginal this trams project is against current technology let alone emerging technology.

Regards,

Mark Ellis 🙂
Phone: 0412 252588
President
ACT Liberal Democrats

Most commenters seem to have missed the very first point that Chic made: there is more value in the future for electric cars, trucks, etc. He didn’t mention that those vehicles will soon be driverless, which will lead to a massive increase in the number of shared vehicles, driverless taxis, etc. They will: be much smaller; be more efficient; be less accident-prone; require no parking space and, above all, provide a door-to-door and overall much faster commute (unlike light rail).

But, really, why are we still talking about commuting to work and back home again? We should have a first-class NBN and work from home wherever that is possible, which would include just about everyone who works now behind a desk.

I can also recommend moving and living closer to where you work, so that you can walk (as I did and do) or ride, or drive if you prefer. And if you drive, it’s the number of car-kilometers that matter, not simply the number of cars on the road. Reduce the car-kilometers.

wildturkeycanoe said :

rommeldog56 said :

OpenYourMind said :

Is everyone feeling a little more confident that this project won’t go over budget after seeing the $11,000 cardboard tram just unveiled?

Yeah.

I wish they could use some of the $11K and instead cut the blasted grass near me once in a while – I thought thats what my Annual Rates, which are increasing by 10% average pa for the next 20 years – is supposed to be paying for ! Not cardboard trams. The incompetence of this ACT Labor/Greens Government, their poor fiscal priority setting and their arrogance, is astounding.

OMG!!! I hadn’t heard of this ridiculous spending mistake until I read this post. Seriously, $11K for a cardboard children’s toy that got used for what, 4 weeks? I’ve always been a Laborvoter but this just made me jump ship. The sooner we get the “Order of Jedi Knights” into power, the sooner our tax money will be properly spent on the community rather than on the fat pigs currently in office. Totally disgusted!

“…I’ve always been a Nobel Peace Laureate but…” 😀

signed Disgusted of Warramanga

wildturkeycanoe7:15 am 08 Mar 15

rommeldog56 said :

OpenYourMind said :

Is everyone feeling a little more confident that this project won’t go over budget after seeing the $11,000 cardboard tram just unveiled?

Yeah.

I wish they could use some of the $11K and instead cut the blasted grass near me once in a while – I thought thats what my Annual Rates, which are increasing by 10% average pa for the next 20 years – is supposed to be paying for ! Not cardboard trams. The incompetence of this ACT Labor/Greens Government, their poor fiscal priority setting and their arrogance, is astounding.

OMG!!! I hadn’t heard of this ridiculous spending mistake until I read this post. Seriously, $11K for a cardboard children’s toy that got used for what, 4 weeks? I’ve always been a Laborvoter but this just made me jump ship. The sooner we get the “Order of Jedi Knights” into power, the sooner our tax money will be properly spent on the community rather than on the fat pigs currently in office. Totally disgusted!

OpenYourMind said :

Is everyone feeling a little more confident that this project won’t go over budget after seeing the $11,000 cardboard tram just unveiled?

Yeah. I wish they could use some of the $11K and instead cut the blasted grass near me once in a while – I thought thats what my Annual Rates, which are increasing by 10% average pa for the next 20 years – is supposed to be paying for ! Not cardboard trams. The incompetence of this ACT Labor/Greens Government, their poor fiscal priority setting and their arrogance, is astounding.

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

dlenihan said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

It’s great to see so many new tram sceptics on this thread.
Alas, all to late I fear.

Aww, come on, don’t give up. Surely you are going to lead a march on the Assembly, have Alistair Coe address the throng, placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning?

I am disappointed.

“…. placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning…..”
No, I leave that sort of behaviour to the loony-left and their mates in the militant trade unions.

Ah, I see. That whole ‘Burn the witch’ thing didn’t happen then? You have to own the good and the bad if you’re going to play the man not the ball.

Please try and be accurate.
There were two signs erected behind Tony Abbott after he started a speech outside Parliament house before he won the election and became PM.
One said “ditch the witch” the other said “Bob Browns (sic) witch”. There was no “burn the witch” sign.

My apologies, I wasn’t there. Did you enjoy the event?

No, I had another engagement which was trying to buy a Clementine Ford “F— Abbott” T-shirt, which I saw being promoted in The Age.

OpenYourMind said :

Is everyone feeling a little more confident that this project won’t go over budget after seeing the $11,000 cardboard tram just unveiled?

Another box ticked in Corbell’s plan for a totally renewable and sustainable Canberra.
Trams for Capital Metro will be constructed out of cardboard and re-cycled.

HiddenDragon said :

watto23 said :

HiddenDragon said :

No reflection on Chic Henry, but by next October, there’ll be plenty of Canberrans ready to vote for the proverbial drover’s dog if he, she or it promised to stop the trams.

Why didn’t they vote against them at the previous election then. The Labor party took this policy to an election.

Could it possibly be the case that some of the people who didn’t vote against it did so because they didn’t really think that such epic idiocy could get beyond the “planning” and “feasibility stage” – a bit like the people who swallowed the “don’t you worry about that” reassurances on the rates/stamp duty tradeoff….

Having come back to this thread after a couple of days absence, I am fascinated to learn that we apparently don’t have, and never have had, dedicated bus lanes anywhere in the ACT, and that planning is a shambles, and that we have weird, windy roads that go nowhere etc. etc. If only we had some outfit to co-ordinate such matters…..like, oh, I don’t know, maybe a National Capital Development Commission (but that would be inconsistent with the wondrous flowering of democracy, which we all love very dearly).

While it may be true that we don’t have any dedicated bus lanes we should give credit to Simon Corbell for trying to build one from Belconnen Town Centre to Canberra City about 10 years ago.
He was howled down by every self-interest group in Canberra.
With the vision of hindsight, we should have let him proceed with it.
He is now exacting his revenge.

OpenYourMind7:14 am 06 Mar 15

Is everyone feeling a little more confident that this project won’t go over budget after seeing the $11,000 cardboard tram just unveiled?

ACT Labor/Greens have been re programing traffic lights the last 2/3 years to make it seem there is more road congestion in Canberra.

William Hovell Dr and Coulter Dr traffic lights were reprogrammed a few months back and now cars are backed all the way Higgins on William Hovell Dr in the Mornings.

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

Those three road projects you nominated were actually needed.
A light rail anywhere in Canberra isn’t needed.

Says who?

That is the nub of the problem. People spend enormous amounts of money buying, housing, parking and running cars then when they sit in traffic jams burning up fossil fuels, working on their personal obessity and listening to yell back radio, they scream at their politicians:

“We NEED more roads!”

Just the traffic lights in sync would be good. It’s a rare thing to make a few sets of lights in Canberra usually you are stopping at every set of lights just as you approach the intersection.

puggy said :

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The whole tram thing has absolutely nothing to do with solving a perceived transport problem. It’s about justifying high density redevelopment of the (lower) Flemington and Northbourne corridor. When the last apartment in the last development is sold, they’ll say “Oops, no money. Bus lanes it is then.”

That would involve a higher level of thinking than we currently have.

There is no magic man behind the curtain, there is no gold mine in Gungahlin, nor is there the certainty that this trolly bus project will ever expand.

Sorry.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The whole tram thing has absolutely nothing to do with solving a perceived transport problem. It’s about justifying high density redevelopment of the (lower) Flemington and Northbourne corridor. When the last apartment in the last development is sold, they’ll say “Oops, no money. Bus lanes it is then.”

HiddenDragon6:55 pm 05 Mar 15

watto23 said :

HiddenDragon said :

No reflection on Chic Henry, but by next October, there’ll be plenty of Canberrans ready to vote for the proverbial drover’s dog if he, she or it promised to stop the trams.

Why didn’t they vote against them at the previous election then. The Labor party took this policy to an election.

Could it possibly be the case that some of the people who didn’t vote against it did so because they didn’t really think that such epic idiocy could get beyond the “planning” and “feasibility stage” – a bit like the people who swallowed the “don’t you worry about that” reassurances on the rates/stamp duty tradeoff….

Having come back to this thread after a couple of days absence, I am fascinated to learn that we apparently don’t have, and never have had, dedicated bus lanes anywhere in the ACT, and that planning is a shambles, and that we have weird, windy roads that go nowhere etc. etc. If only we had some outfit to co-ordinate such matters…..like, oh, I don’t know, maybe a National Capital Development Commission (but that would be inconsistent with the wondrous flowering of democracy, which we all love very dearly).

KentFitch said :

The strange thing about the light-rail proposal is that it doesn’t begin to address the actual problems, such as rubaiyat’s son trying to get from Spence to the Airport.

Or my elderly relative who shouldn’t be driving, but won’t give up her independence, or the people at the Enlighten Night Noodle Markets trying get home on Sunday, or my neighbour’s nephew out on the turps and wondering how to get home, or my partially disabled friend, a single mother trying to juggle getting kids to school, child-care, a part time job and a TAFE course; people like you and me: http://www.projectcomputing.com/resources/cacs/index.html#motivation

Sure, private cars are expensive and wasteful, and current public transport is expensive and inconvenient: people want door-to-door 24×7 on demand mobility. But as Skyring noted, self-driving cars really are just around the corner. Nissan’s CEO recommitted last week to delivering a fully self-driving model by 2020 and most auto-makers are now competing to bring the to market.

A shared fleet of autonomous cars can provide very cheap, effective, universal and egalitarian transport for Canberra, reusing our current road infrastructure much more efficiently. Here’s a simulation you can run yourself: http://www.projectcomputing.com/resources/cacs/index.html
Check out the references for the state of the technology.

I’m not a light-rail hater, but the business case is transparently flawed: http://www.projectcomputing.com/resources/cacs/faq.html#lrbc
We’d be luck to see a benefit-to-cost ratio of 0.4 – it makes no sense for Canberra. Economics is about priorities. You may have seen David Murray talking about the advantages of spending on early-intervention on eating disorders this week: an economic benefit-to-cost ratio of 5: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4189924.htm Will our government claim it has no extra money to spend on health and education whilst squandering public assets and future rates on a white elephant?

Sadly, our politicians seem to lack the rigour to consider the real problems, the courage to seek solutions not emerging from a forgotten ideology or dictated to them by carpet-baggers, and the vision and administrative skills to develop and implement a coherent plan, but if I’m wrong and such a politician does exist, please make yourself known so that I can vote for you!

Well said KentFitch – a well reasoned and supported article.

So, why this ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t is bulldozing the Light Rail through is dumbfounding – and more probably, totally incompetent. They have clearly lost touch with reality.

Re voting in 2016 : I don’t think that its about who or what party u vote for anymore. To me, its more like NOT voting for Labor/Greens and so send a clear message to any alternative ACT Government/Independent that dfecisions such as this (and others they have made) are unacceptable – and any new ACT Gov’t will also be thrown out if they also make stupid decisions and dont get their fiscal priorities even vaguely right.

If the current ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t isn’t thrown out at the 2016 election, all we are going to get is yet more of the same I’m afraid – for a long, long time too.

I have to agree whole heartedly with Chic. There has been scant planning around the deployment of public transport across the ACT. The Gungahlin tram has to be fed by buses or cars for residents to access the station, the trip to Civic will take considerably longer than a drive and not have the convenience or flexibility of private transport.
The freight hub has been my dream for nearly a decade, but I’ve seen little movement around making it a reality apart from the Majura Parkway (an excellent investment). There are many better investments in infrastructure that would give the ACT a real return on investment and a stake in the future of as a regional centre for for freight and passenger movement.

The strange thing about the light-rail proposal is that it doesn’t begin to address the actual problems, such as rubaiyat’s son trying to get from Spence to the Airport.

Or my elderly relative who shouldn’t be driving, but won’t give up her independence, or the people at the Enlighten Night Noodle Markets trying get home on Sunday, or my neighbour’s nephew out on the turps and wondering how to get home, or my partially disabled friend, a single mother trying to juggle getting kids to school, child-care, a part time job and a TAFE course; people like you and me: http://www.projectcomputing.com/resources/cacs/index.html#motivation

Sure, private cars are expensive and wasteful, and current public transport is expensive and inconvenient: people want door-to-door 24×7 on demand mobility. But as Skyring noted, self-driving cars really are just around the corner. Nissan’s CEO recommitted last week to delivering a fully self-driving model by 2020 and most auto-makers are now competing to bring the to market.

A shared fleet of autonomous cars can provide very cheap, effective, universal and egalitarian transport for Canberra, reusing our current road infrastructure much more efficiently. Here’s a simulation you can run yourself: http://www.projectcomputing.com/resources/cacs/index.html
Check out the references for the state of the technology.

I’m not a light-rail hater, but the business case is transparently flawed: http://www.projectcomputing.com/resources/cacs/faq.html#lrbc
We’d be luck to see a benefit-to-cost ratio of 0.4 – it makes no sense for Canberra. Economics is about priorities. You may have seen David Murray talking about the advantages of spending on early-intervention on eating disorders this week: an economic benefit-to-cost ratio of 5: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4189924.htm Will our government claim it has no extra money to spend on health and education whilst squandering public assets and future rates on a white elephant?

Sadly, our politicians seem to lack the rigour to consider the real problems, the courage to seek solutions not emerging from a forgotten ideology or dictated to them by carpet-baggers, and the vision and administrative skills to develop and implement a coherent plan, but if I’m wrong and such a politician does exist, please make yourself known so that I can vote for you!

dungfungus said :

You are again confusing public transport (trams) with private transport Cars).
Trams and metros for the masses were established in European cities 100 years ago because cars were only available to the very wealthy. Accordingly, the high density apartments that were built along the cities main thoroughfares did not have any accommodation for cars. Have you ever noticed how few cars there are parked in the streets of Paris?

That’s because they are all circling the Arc de Triomphe, trying to escape.

And when they park, they really park. Those bumpers aren’t there to look pretty and get polished up, no, they are there for touch parking.

The preferred motor vehicle transport for Parisians is the Vespa. Paris has seven times as many people in the City itself, but fewer cars.

And, um, no trams.

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

dlenihan said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

It’s great to see so many new tram sceptics on this thread.
Alas, all to late I fear.

Aww, come on, don’t give up. Surely you are going to lead a march on the Assembly, have Alistair Coe address the throng, placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning?

I am disappointed.

“…. placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning…..”
No, I leave that sort of behaviour to the loony-left and their mates in the militant trade unions.

Ah, I see. That whole ‘Burn the witch’ thing didn’t happen then? You have to own the good and the bad if you’re going to play the man not the ball.

Please try and be accurate.
There were two signs erected behind Tony Abbott after he started a speech outside Parliament house before he won the election and became PM.
One said “ditch the witch” the other said “Bob Browns (sic) witch”. There was no “burn the witch” sign.

My apologies, I wasn’t there. Did you enjoy the event?

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

dlenihan said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

It’s great to see so many new tram sceptics on this thread.
Alas, all to late I fear.

Aww, come on, don’t give up. Surely you are going to lead a march on the Assembly, have Alistair Coe address the throng, placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning?

I am disappointed.

“…. placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning…..”
No, I leave that sort of behaviour to the loony-left and their mates in the militant trade unions.

Ah, I see. That whole ‘Burn the witch’ thing didn’t happen then? You have to own the good and the bad if you’re going to play the man not the ball.

Please try and be accurate.
There were two signs erected behind Tony Abbott after he started a speech outside Parliament house before he won the election and became PM.
One said “ditch the witch” the other said “Bob Browns (sic) witch”. There was no “burn the witch” sign.

rubaiyat said :

rommeldog56 said :

And in the meantime, the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t will have locked Territiory ratepayers & voters into a 25+ year Public Private Partnership for an inflexible route that carries a 100 year old transport concept, called a Tram. Very logical & visionary. Thats great, just great.

Isn’t the car a “100 year old transport concept”?

I meant to say a “100 year old mass transport concept like the tram”. Just left out the word “mass”.

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

Even if it were true, there is a bit of difference between the Federal Government spending that sort of money on a National icon, and a city council spending it on a single stage of a transport network (which at best, will only supplement the existing bus network).

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

dlenihan said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

It’s great to see so many new tram sceptics on this thread.
Alas, all to late I fear.

Aww, come on, don’t give up. Surely you are going to lead a march on the Assembly, have Alistair Coe address the throng, placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning?

I am disappointed.

“…. placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning…..”
No, I leave that sort of behaviour to the loony-left and their mates in the militant trade unions.

Ah, I see. That whole ‘Burn the witch’ thing didn’t happen then? You have to own the good and the bad if you’re going to play the man not the ball.

rommeldog56 said :

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

I don’t know which planet you have been living on but it is certainly not Canberra.
Canberra is the easiest place in the world to travel by car – this is the dividend of designing a city where the private car is the principal method of transport.
Sure, there are short periods of congestion but no gridlock.
I don’t know where you got the idea that car ownership is falling either..

I don’t know what planet YOU are living on but I’m on the one that’s suffering from the profligate burning of fossil fuels.

Canberra has a measly 380,000 people yet it can take a ridiculous amount of time crossing it because everything is so far apart. To compound that the traffic in and around Northbourne Ave in peak hours is getting up to the congestion of much larger cities.

Distance isn’t that important when the roads are good and the traffic sparse. As a night cabbie, I’d whip around the city after hours – at legal speeds – and find it a pleasure. Civic to Dickson in four minutes was a regular trip, and there’s little in Canberra that’s more than fifteen minutes away.

During the day, when there’s traffic on the road, it’s different, of course.

Which is where new driving technologies will come into play. Electric cars are a given, of course. Traffic will no longer generate localised fumes and noise.

Self-driving cars are perfect for Canberra’s long avenues. Parking won’t be a problem, because they can be sent off alone to dedicated parking areas rather than clutter up the city.

Ride sharing and other apps will also help reduce traffic.

All this will take time, but we’re seeing new developments every week. Tesla is quickly becoming a legendary name in the world of electric cars, Google’s autonomous driving machines are legal in some cities, and apps such as Uber and Lyft are appearing with every refresh.

Taken together, these will reduce traffic volume, increase speed and bring Canberra back to being a drivable city.

At all times, not just the hours either side of midnight.

And in the meantime, the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t will have locked Territiory ratepayers & voters into a 25+ year Public Private Partnership for an inflexible route that carries a 100 year old transport concept, called a Tram. Very logical & visionary. Thats great, just great.

It’s a tram line to Perdition.

rubaiyat said :

rommeldog56 said :

And in the meantime, the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t will have locked Territiory ratepayers & voters into a 25+ year Public Private Partnership for an inflexible route that carries a 100 year old transport concept, called a Tram. Very logical & visionary. Thats great, just great.

Isn’t the car a “100 year old transport concept”?

You are again confusing public transport (trams) with private transport Cars).
Trams and metros for the masses were established in European cities 100 years ago because cars were only available to the very wealthy. Accordingly, the high density apartments that were built along the cities main thoroughfares did not have any accommodation for cars. Have you ever noticed how few cars there are parked in the streets of Paris?
Canberra was designed and built for people to use private cars.

Skyring said :

dungfungus said :

Getting to and from the airport from anywhere has been a chronic problem.
Until the Majura express-way is finished your son will have to allow more time for travel just as everyone else does.
I believe there are over 10,000 people commuting to and from the airport precinct every day. A lot of people from the east of Canberra also use the roads around the airport to get to and from the other areas in Canberra.
Maybe the tram service should be from Gunghalin to the airport where there is a mass transport problem.

The airport’s been a hassle for three reasons.
First, there’s the regular airport traffic. As a cabbie, there’s a lot of regular work to and from the city and the Parliamentary zone, particularly when Parliament is sitting. Plus the airport workers.
Second, there’s two conflicting streams of traffic: to and from Gungahlin, to and from Queanbeyan. The Fyshwick traffic slots in there as well. The Gungahlin traffic up Majura Road steadily increased over the years because the alternatives were packed.
Third, the growing amount of offices and shops at the airport.

The old roundabouts used to be a nightmare. I’d often have a passenger in the cab, sweating on their flight, and there would be nothing I could do to go any faster. No alternate routes – we just had to crawl through the traffic.

The situation has improved over the years, but of course with each improvement comes more traffic. The Majura Parkway should be a major improvement in that it will allow east-west and north-south traffic streams to flow smoothly without having to regualrly give way to each other.

The airport is one destination that cries out for a better bus service. Instead, cabs and private cars are encouraged – because each time they park or use the cabyard, a fee is paid to the airport.

Ironically, the precinct is primarily an airport but the airline passenger traffic is in decline.
Having said that, one must admire the commercial acumen of the Snow family in crystallising the commercial and retail potential of the airport’s open spaces. The new hotel will undoubtedly be a success and be a welcome assist for regional tourism.
It is only a matter of time before the residential area (old RAAF residences) are developed into quality apartments and such a development would compliment a modern version of light rail to connect with the Labor government’s version of a tram service using 100 year old technology.
There is scope for the airport to become Canberra integrated transport hub to include rail, buses and road/air freight.
Ratepayers would do well to outsource the governance of the ACT to the Snow family.

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

dlenihan said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

It’s great to see so many new tram sceptics on this thread.
Alas, all to late I fear.

Aww, come on, don’t give up. Surely you are going to lead a march on the Assembly, have Alistair Coe address the throng, placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning?

I am disappointed.

“…. placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning…..”
No, I leave that sort of behaviour to the loony-left and their mates in the militant trade unions.

rommeldog56 said :

And in the meantime, the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t will have locked Territiory ratepayers & voters into a 25+ year Public Private Partnership for an inflexible route that carries a 100 year old transport concept, called a Tram. Very logical & visionary. Thats great, just great.

Isn’t the car a “100 year old transport concept”?

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

I don’t know which planet you have been living on but it is certainly not Canberra.
Canberra is the easiest place in the world to travel by car – this is the dividend of designing a city where the private car is the principal method of transport.
Sure, there are short periods of congestion but no gridlock.
I don’t know where you got the idea that car ownership is falling either..

I don’t know what planet YOU are living on but I’m on the one that’s suffering from the profligate burning of fossil fuels.

Canberra has a measly 380,000 people yet it can take a ridiculous amount of time crossing it because everything is so far apart. To compound that the traffic in and around Northbourne Ave in peak hours is getting up to the congestion of much larger cities.

Distance isn’t that important when the roads are good and the traffic sparse. As a night cabbie, I’d whip around the city after hours – at legal speeds – and find it a pleasure. Civic to Dickson in four minutes was a regular trip, and there’s little in Canberra that’s more than fifteen minutes away.

During the day, when there’s traffic on the road, it’s different, of course.

Which is where new driving technologies will come into play. Electric cars are a given, of course. Traffic will no longer generate localised fumes and noise.

Self-driving cars are perfect for Canberra’s long avenues. Parking won’t be a problem, because they can be sent off alone to dedicated parking areas rather than clutter up the city.

Ride sharing and other apps will also help reduce traffic.

All this will take time, but we’re seeing new developments every week. Tesla is quickly becoming a legendary name in the world of electric cars, Google’s autonomous driving machines are legal in some cities, and apps such as Uber and Lyft are appearing with every refresh.

Taken together, these will reduce traffic volume, increase speed and bring Canberra back to being a drivable city.

At all times, not just the hours either side of midnight.

And in the meantime, the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t will have locked Territiory ratepayers & voters into a 25+ year Public Private Partnership for an inflexible route that carries a 100 year old transport concept, called a Tram. Very logical & visionary. Thats great, just great.

watto23 said :

HiddenDragon said :

No reflection on Chic Henry, but by next October, there’ll be plenty of Canberrans ready to vote for the proverbial drover’s dog if he, she or it promised to stop the trams.

Why didn’t they vote against them at the previous election then. The Labor party took this policy to an election.

True. But without the detail that is now known. A lesson for voters/ratepayers : “the devil is in the detail”. ACT voters and ratepayers have got what they voted for and so deserve.

dungfungus said :

dlenihan said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

It’s great to see so many new tram sceptics on this thread.
Alas, all to late I fear.

Aww, come on, don’t give up. Surely you are going to lead a march on the Assembly, have Alistair Coe address the throng, placards, banners insulting MLAs, effigies burning?

I am disappointed.

dungfungus said :

Getting to and from the airport from anywhere has been a chronic problem.
Until the Majura express-way is finished your son will have to allow more time for travel just as everyone else does.
I believe there are over 10,000 people commuting to and from the airport precinct every day. A lot of people from the east of Canberra also use the roads around the airport to get to and from the other areas in Canberra.
Maybe the tram service should be from Gunghalin to the airport where there is a mass transport problem.

The airport’s been a hassle for three reasons.
First, there’s the regular airport traffic. As a cabbie, there’s a lot of regular work to and from the city and the Parliamentary zone, particularly when Parliament is sitting. Plus the airport workers.
Second, there’s two conflicting streams of traffic: to and from Gungahlin, to and from Queanbeyan. The Fyshwick traffic slots in there as well. The Gungahlin traffic up Majura Road steadily increased over the years because the alternatives were packed.
Third, the growing amount of offices and shops at the airport.

The old roundabouts used to be a nightmare. I’d often have a passenger in the cab, sweating on their flight, and there would be nothing I could do to go any faster. No alternate routes – we just had to crawl through the traffic.

The situation has improved over the years, but of course with each improvement comes more traffic. The Majura Parkway should be a major improvement in that it will allow east-west and north-south traffic streams to flow smoothly without having to regualrly give way to each other.

The airport is one destination that cries out for a better bus service. Instead, cabs and private cars are encouraged – because each time they park or use the cabyard, a fee is paid to the airport.

dlenihan said :

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

Like the proposed 7.5km busway from Civic to Belconnen that was going to cost $120 million in 2006?

In knee jerk reactionary 2014 “White Elephant” dollars that would be well over a Trillion bucks!

If only it was a freeway! Like the Majura Parkway. No probs!

dlenihan said :

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

dungfungus said :

Getting to and from the airport from anywhere has been a chronic problem.
Until the Majura express-way is finished your son will have to allow more time for travel just as everyone else does.
I believe there are over 10,000 people commuting to and from the airport precinct every day. A lot of people from the east of Canberra also use the roads around the airport to get to and from the other areas in Canberra.
Maybe the tram service should be from Gunghalin to the airport where there is a mass transport problem.

Just had lunch with my son, and confirmed: Yes! He is living on that other planet!

He says in the mornings the traffic starts backing up as he comes out of Spence. By the time he gets near Civic on Parkes Way it is at a standstill. The roadworks next to the Convention Centre have only added to the problems.

Maybe we demolish Black Mountain all the way back to Spence and make it a 12 lane freeway. That seems to have worked a treat in America! Whiled away many a happy 2 – 3 hours trying to get across the George Washington Bridge with my brother-in-law.

Hey, didn’t the Government just finish spending a fortune on the Tuggeranong Freeway/Parkes Way intersection?

How did that work out? Are we bankrupt yet? Is everyone who never drives that side threatening to secede from the ACT?

dlenihan said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

It’s great to see so many new tram sceptics on this thread.
Alas, all to late I fear.

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

I don’t know which planet you have been living on but it is certainly not Canberra.
Canberra is the easiest place in the world to travel by car – this is the dividend of designing a city where the private car is the principal method of transport.
Sure, there are short periods of congestion but no gridlock.
I don’t know where you got the idea that car ownership is falling either..

I don’t know what planet YOU are living on but I’m on the one that’s suffering from the profligate burning of fossil fuels.

Canberra has a measly 380,000 people yet it can take a ridiculous amount of time crossing it because everything is so far apart. To compound that the traffic in and around Northbourne Ave in peak hours is getting up to the congestion of much larger cities.

My son has so much trouble getting from Spence to the Airport and back everyday he has seriously contemplated breaking his lease.

Just imagine if you live in Banks!

None of this is going to get any better, fast. The bus service is progressively getting worse which is why their ridership is down. Not unexpected in a town where enormous amounts of money get blown on roads, roads and more roads. All of which goes unquestioned by those living in the past, and addicted to their cars.

Getting to and from the airport from anywhere has been a chronic problem.
Until the Majura express-way is finished your son will have to allow more time for travel just as everyone else does.
I believe there are over 10,000 people commuting to and from the airport precinct every day. A lot of people from the east of Canberra also use the roads around the airport to get to and from the other areas in Canberra.
Maybe the tram service should be from Gunghalin to the airport where there is a mass transport problem.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

That’s what annoys me so much. It will most likely cost 1 billion in the end to replicate a service the busses already provide.

Imagine if this money was used to upgrade the entire bus net ACT-wide, more bus lanes. dedicated flyovers, etc. rather than a tram which seems to be more about the upgrade of Northborne Ave by stealth than a realistic transport option or the city.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back2:21 pm 04 Mar 15

rubaiyat said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Despite all the debate I still haven’t heard any arguments as to why we shouldn’t be taking a step back and examing the actual problem.

Surely what needs to be considered is who has to go where, and how to get them there. I’d be in favour of a major investment into dedicated busways linking the city, gungers, woden and tuggers and then running the service using existing or new buses for a while. Then, when we really understand the demand and usage patterns, start upgrading these inter-town links to rail (light or otherwise).

This ‘build it and they will come’ crap is just ludicrous. A change of this magnitude needs to be analysed, designed and deployed in stages, or it just ends up being an underutilised waste of money.

This has been raised and yes planning a network with dedicated transport corridors would be an obvious first step.

So obvious Planning has ignored it.

When and if we get the bus ways, which should be designed to be upgraded to rail, the buses should be run at high speed. Faster than regular traffic. One it moves more people quicker with less drivers and buses, second it would encourage people to switch to public transport.

Everything comes down to whatever is decided, it obviously isn’t decided by public transport users, for public transport users.

Agree with all this.

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

I don’t know which planet you have been living on but it is certainly not Canberra.
Canberra is the easiest place in the world to travel by car – this is the dividend of designing a city where the private car is the principal method of transport.
Sure, there are short periods of congestion but no gridlock.
I don’t know where you got the idea that car ownership is falling either..

I don’t know what planet YOU are living on but I’m on the one that’s suffering from the profligate burning of fossil fuels.

Canberra has a measly 380,000 people yet it can take a ridiculous amount of time crossing it because everything is so far apart. To compound that the traffic in and around Northbourne Ave in peak hours is getting up to the congestion of much larger cities.

Distance isn’t that important when the roads are good and the traffic sparse. As a night cabbie, I’d whip around the city after hours – at legal speeds – and find it a pleasure. Civic to Dickson in four minutes was a regular trip, and there’s little in Canberra that’s more than fifteen minutes away.

During the day, when there’s traffic on the road, it’s different, of course.

Which is where new driving technologies will come into play. Electric cars are a given, of course. Traffic will no longer generate localised fumes and noise.

Self-driving cars are perfect for Canberra’s long avenues. Parking won’t be a problem, because they can be sent off alone to dedicated parking areas rather than clutter up the city.

Ride sharing and other apps will also help reduce traffic.

All this will take time, but we’re seeing new developments every week. Tesla is quickly becoming a legendary name in the world of electric cars, Google’s autonomous driving machines are legal in some cities, and apps such as Uber and Lyft are appearing with every refresh.

Taken together, these will reduce traffic volume, increase speed and bring Canberra back to being a drivable city.

At all times, not just the hours either side of midnight.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Despite all the debate I still haven’t heard any arguments as to why we shouldn’t be taking a step back and examing the actual problem.

Surely what needs to be considered is who has to go where, and how to get them there. I’d be in favour of a major investment into dedicated busways linking the city, gungers, woden and tuggers and then running the service using existing or new buses for a while. Then, when we really understand the demand and usage patterns, start upgrading these inter-town links to rail (light or otherwise).

This ‘build it and they will come’ crap is just ludicrous. A change of this magnitude needs to be analysed, designed and deployed in stages, or it just ends up being an underutilised waste of money.

This has been raised and yes planning a network with dedicated transport corridors would be an obvious first step.

So obvious Planning has ignored it.

When and if we get the bus ways, which should be designed to be upgraded to rail, the buses should be run at high speed. Faster than regular traffic. One it moves more people quicker with less drivers and buses, second it would encourage people to switch to public transport.

Everything comes down to whatever is decided, it obviously isn’t decided by public transport users, for public transport users.

rubaiyat said :

It is the result of badly designed suburban sprawl and badly laid out roads not just the lack of public transport.

It really struck me when I first came to Canberra, who decided where the roads run and why do they never go anywhere directly?

Was it all doodling on the map?

By someone who liked spending all day in the car?

“Was it all doodling on the map?”
+1

It is the result of badly designed suburban sprawl and badly laid out roads not just the lack of public transport.

It really struck me when I first came to Canberra, who decided where the roads run and why do they never go anywhere directly?

Was it all doodling on the map?

By someone who liked spending all day in the car?

VYBerlinaV8_is_back12:32 pm 04 Mar 15

rubaiyat said :

My son has so much trouble getting from Spence to the Airport and back everyday he has seriously contemplated breaking his lease.

This is a good example if why we need to step back and think about the actual problem. Neither light rail, nor blaming roads and cars, will fix this.

dungfungus said :

I don’t know where you got the idea that car ownership is falling either. Travel by Action buses has certainly declined but I don’t think more people are commuting by bycicle.

https://chartingtransport.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/census-implied-car-occupancy1.jpg

and

https://chartingtransport.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/car-ownership-v-occupancy.jpg

Our widely differing views are due to our widely differing experiences.

Possibly yours may be more “The way it used to be”.

dungfungus said :

I don’t know which planet you have been living on but it is certainly not Canberra.
Canberra is the easiest place in the world to travel by car – this is the dividend of designing a city where the private car is the principal method of transport.
Sure, there are short periods of congestion but no gridlock.
I don’t know where you got the idea that car ownership is falling either..

I don’t know what planet YOU are living on but I’m on the one that’s suffering from the profligate burning of fossil fuels.

Canberra has a measly 380,000 people yet it can take a ridiculous amount of time crossing it because everything is so far apart. To compound that the traffic in and around Northbourne Ave in peak hours is getting up to the congestion of much larger cities.

My son has so much trouble getting from Spence to the Airport and back everyday he has seriously contemplated breaking his lease.

Just imagine if you live in Banks!

None of this is going to get any better, fast. The bus service is progressively getting worse which is why their ridership is down. Not unexpected in a town where enormous amounts of money get blown on roads, roads and more roads. All of which goes unquestioned by those living in the past, and addicted to their cars.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Despite all the debate I still haven’t heard any arguments as to why we shouldn’t be taking a step back and examing the actual problem.

Surely what needs to be considered is who has to go where, and how to get them there. I’d be in favour of a major investment into dedicated busways linking the city, gungers, woden and tuggers and then running the service using existing or new buses for a while. Then, when we really understand the demand and usage patterns, start upgrading these inter-town links to rail (light or otherwise).

This ‘build it and they will come’ crap is just ludicrous. A change of this magnitude needs to be analysed, designed and deployed in stages, or it just ends up being an underutilised waste of money.

When the masses don’t share the leader’s enthusiasm, the leader commissions a survey that convinces him that he is right: http://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/1503/support-for-light-rail/
Note that only 1300 Gungahlin residents completed the survey.

rubaiyat said :

Skyring said :

Trams and light rail don’t fit well with Canberra. There’s never going to be the harmony and acceptance we see in older, more densely-populated cities. And why should we even bother, when we’re shortly going to see electric cars, self-driving cars, ride-sharing systems make personal transport much more efficient than the current model?

You forgot the flying car.

You simply can not build enough roads for people driving individually to widely located destinations.

The bigger it gets, the more people, the more cross connections, the more complex and congested. It breaks down and you get the problems Canberra has now got. Which are not going to go away.

It is ludicrous that Canberrans, in such a small city, spend such inordinate amounts of time trying to get somewhere else. It is also costly in time wasted, fuel and infrastructure.

Lonsdale Street shows where we are all headed. No more 3-4 car households, smaller family units living in apartments and enjoying the city lifestyle within walking distance.

Car ownership is down. That is why the car industry is in such trouble. The clear trend in Australia and many countries now is only one car, or no car, and to get around a smaller area using public transport.

The days of cheap, plentiful energy with no consequences, are over.

You are not going to go back to the “Good Ole Days” of Federal waste and Canberra a fraction of its present population. What happens when we are half a million people with the same inappropriately dated town plan and infrastructure?

I don’t know which planet you have been living on but it is certainly not Canberra.
Canberra is the easiest place in the world to travel by car – this is the dividend of designing a city where the private car is the principal method of transport.
Sure, there are short periods of congestion but no gridlock.
I don’t know where you got the idea that car ownership is falling either. Travel by Action buses has certainly declined but I don’t think more people are commuting by bycicle.
And petrol hasn’t been cheaper for years due to the abundance of the stuff.
Unfortunately the morally vain people who run Canberra want to change all that. They are due for an early retirement.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back11:07 am 04 Mar 15

Despite all the debate I still haven’t heard any arguments as to why we shouldn’t be taking a step back and examing the actual problem.

Surely what needs to be considered is who has to go where, and how to get them there. I’d be in favour of a major investment into dedicated busways linking the city, gungers, woden and tuggers and then running the service using existing or new buses for a while. Then, when we really understand the demand and usage patterns, start upgrading these inter-town links to rail (light or otherwise).

This ‘build it and they will come’ crap is just ludicrous. A change of this magnitude needs to be analysed, designed and deployed in stages, or it just ends up being an underutilised waste of money.

dungfungus said :

Well said.

…and I absolutely refuse to pay for the white elephant that is YOUR stretch of road.

I’m never going to use it.

Skyring said :

Trams and light rail don’t fit well with Canberra. There’s never going to be the harmony and acceptance we see in older, more densely-populated cities. And why should we even bother, when we’re shortly going to see electric cars, self-driving cars, ride-sharing systems make personal transport much more efficient than the current model?

You forgot the flying car.

You simply can not build enough roads for people driving individually to widely located destinations.

The bigger it gets, the more people, the more cross connections, the more complex and congested. It breaks down and you get the problems Canberra has now got. Which are not going to go away.

It is ludicrous that Canberrans, in such a small city, spend such inordinate amounts of time trying to get somewhere else. It is also costly in time wasted, fuel and infrastructure.

Lonsdale Street shows where we are all headed. No more 3-4 car households, smaller family units living in apartments and enjoying the city lifestyle within walking distance.

Car ownership is down. That is why the car industry is in such trouble. The clear trend in Australia and many countries now is only one car, or no car, and to get around a smaller area using public transport.

The days of cheap, plentiful energy with no consequences, are over.

You are not going to go back to the “Good Ole Days” of Federal waste and Canberra a fraction of its present population. What happens when we are half a million people with the same inappropriately dated town plan and infrastructure?

HiddenDragon said :

No reflection on Chic Henry, but by next October, there’ll be plenty of Canberrans ready to vote for the proverbial drover’s dog if he, she or it promised to stop the trams.

Why didn’t they vote against them at the previous election then. The Labor party took this policy to an election.

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

There has been little or no forward thinking in Canberra’s planning since Burley Griffin was undermined by the bureaucrats and there was no thought to future transport other than cars, cars and more cars. Now is the time to do some real planning. Canberra is starting to grow up as it reaches critical mass as the de facto capital of southern New South Wales, without a workable transport plan it is going to get in serious trouble.

Transport is the key to the next leap forward, along with planning for higher development, and the elimination of stamp duty and social services assets tests, so householders can let go of their suburban homes without being punished.

Just quietly, but forward thinking and good planning has served us very well up until the late Eighties, when suburban density in new suburbs such as Isaacs was increased without corresponding improvements in transport. Self-government came in and long-term plans were sacrificed for short-term rewards. The decentralised model was thrown out, development centralised in Civic, and we now have the transport problems caused by that choice.

To my mind, it’s not a matter of trying to be another Sydney or Melbourne and aiming for a million or two people. Why is this seen as a desirable aim? What are all these people supposed to do? Ride trams all day so as to fill up the seats?

Trams make a lot of sense in cities whose cores were designed and constructed before car ownership became widespread. San Francisco. Melbourne. Vienna, Amsterdam. Gothenburg. Or underground systems such as Paris, London, and Tokyo. Or both, such as Barcelona. There’s little room for cars and a high enough population to make public transport efficient. Gothenburg is the only one of the above cities where I bother to consult a timetable; everywhere else, there’s no point because another tram or metro will be along in a few minutes.

Canberra was never one of those cities. From its earliest days, the “Garden City” ideal ensured that it was going to be low-density. Look at the older suburbs such as Reid or Barton – they have wide streets, quarter-acre blocks, generous nature strips, plentiful parkland, and small houses. Every house had a garage and plenty of parking, on and off street, well before these sort of suburbs became commonplace in (say) Sydney or Melbourne, where terrace houses were the norm for decades.

Trams and light rail don’t fit well with Canberra. There’s never going to be the harmony and acceptance we see in older, more densely-populated cities. And why should we even bother, when we’re shortly going to see electric cars, self-driving cars, ride-sharing systems make personal transport much more efficient than the current model?

Spending a billion dollars on trams is folly. The passenger levels needed to make that expenditure worthwhile are never going to eventuate. Not unless draconian anti-car measures are taken and if they become too onerous, any opposition promising to scrap them will romp home at the next election.

Which is pretty much what I see happening next year. Voters in Belconnen, Tuggeranong and Woden don’t want to pay higher rates for a white elephant that’s of no use to them.

Well said.

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

For something more contemporary and hillier, look to San Francisco.

Graz I don’t know about. San Francisco public transport, I’m very familiar with. I have a current Clipper card.

The trams there don’t negotiate any gradients. They run along Market Street and the waterfront past the Ferry Building to Fishermans Wharf. Flat all the way. They use historic streetcars from across the USA and the world. Even a couple of Melbourne trams in the fleet. http://advance.org/articles/second-melbourne-tram-joins-san-franciscos-historic-streetcar-fleet/

Those iconic cablecars climbing halfway to the stars don’t run under their own steam. The wheels aren’t powered. They are cablecars, pulled up those steep hills by cables running under the street surface.

If you are trying to tell me that trams climb up steep San Francisco hills, you are plain wrong.

Thought you’d pick up the furphy of the cable cars.

The trams have to get up the length of Market Street and around the the higher parts at the back of Castro. They do need to go through a tunnel to get to Stonestown, but it is all far from level.

I never claimed they climbed the steep hills but they certainly negotiate a hilly San Francisco. Canberra isn’t a scratch on that.

And I see you side stepped the original up and down Sydney network. Graz I don’t expect you to know, nor the countless other examples in Europe apparently.

rubaiyat said :

There has been little or no forward thinking in Canberra’s planning since Burley Griffin was undermined by the bureaucrats and there was no thought to future transport other than cars, cars and more cars. Now is the time to do some real planning. Canberra is starting to grow up as it reaches critical mass as the de facto capital of southern New South Wales, without a workable transport plan it is going to get in serious trouble.

Transport is the key to the next leap forward, along with planning for higher development, and the elimination of stamp duty and social services assets tests, so householders can let go of their suburban homes without being punished.

Just quietly, but forward thinking and good planning has served us very well up until the late Eighties, when suburban density in new suburbs such as Isaacs was increased without corresponding improvements in transport. Self-government came in and long-term plans were sacrificed for short-term rewards. The decentralised model was thrown out, development centralised in Civic, and we now have the transport problems caused by that choice.

To my mind, it’s not a matter of trying to be another Sydney or Melbourne and aiming for a million or two people. Why is this seen as a desirable aim? What are all these people supposed to do? Ride trams all day so as to fill up the seats?

Trams make a lot of sense in cities whose cores were designed and constructed before car ownership became widespread. San Francisco. Melbourne. Vienna, Amsterdam. Gothenburg. Or underground systems such as Paris, London, and Tokyo. Or both, such as Barcelona. There’s little room for cars and a high enough population to make public transport efficient. Gothenburg is the only one of the above cities where I bother to consult a timetable; everywhere else, there’s no point because another tram or metro will be along in a few minutes.

Canberra was never one of those cities. From its earliest days, the “Garden City” ideal ensured that it was going to be low-density. Look at the older suburbs such as Reid or Barton – they have wide streets, quarter-acre blocks, generous nature strips, plentiful parkland, and small houses. Every house had a garage and plenty of parking, on and off street, well before these sort of suburbs became commonplace in (say) Sydney or Melbourne, where terrace houses were the norm for decades.

Trams and light rail don’t fit well with Canberra. There’s never going to be the harmony and acceptance we see in older, more densely-populated cities. And why should we even bother, when we’re shortly going to see electric cars, self-driving cars, ride-sharing systems make personal transport much more efficient than the current model?

Spending a billion dollars on trams is folly. The passenger levels needed to make that expenditure worthwhile are never going to eventuate. Not unless draconian anti-car measures are taken and if they become too onerous, any opposition promising to scrap them will romp home at the next election.

Which is pretty much what I see happening next year. Voters in Belconnen, Tuggeranong and Woden don’t want to pay higher rates for a white elephant that’s of no use to them.

rubaiyat said :

Skyring said :

Mountainous nations in Europe run steep railways, for sure, but not with steel wheels on steel rails. They use racks and cogs.

Carrying a tram line between the spans of the Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges would be expensive, and the line would have to be level. Ascending the slope along either avenue in the direction of Capital Hill would be more than is possible for light rail. Unless we go for the racks and cogs, and then we’re talking double the price.

We really are the Can’t Do It Nation!

My Mum’s home town is Graz, where Arnie comes from, and the 80 year trams there have no trouble running out through the meadows and up the hill to Maria Trost without the supposed “zahnzug” you are talking about.

Also go have a look around Newtown and Marrickville in Sydney. You can still see where the old trams negotiated not only steep gradients but also tight curves at the same time. For something more contemporary and hillier, look to San Francisco.

I could design you a simple and elegant triangulated tubular steel support structure fitting between the twin laneways on the bridges that you could swing in place with a couple of cranes.

The objections are just that, along the lines of “bumble bees can not fly” and women have less teeth than men. “Facts” for those who Never, Ever, check.

It was “impossible” or “too expensive” to have dug out the Russell interchange and overpass, or span the mighty Molonglo with the Majura Parkway!

But that’s different! It is for the endless freeways that Never, Ever, have to pay for themselves. Or face public scrutiny but simply slash through the countryside, wiping out all in their path, or crossing it.

“I could design you a simple and elegant triangulated tubular steel support structure fitting between the twin laneways on the bridges that you could swing in place with a couple of cranes.”
The NCA won’t allow that.
The inside lanes of the bridges were strengthened during construction to cater for large earthmoving plant (scrapers) to travel from one side of the future lake to the other when further work on approaches etc. had to be carried out.
A rare bit of forward planning.
Accordingly, a tram track across the bridges on the exiting carriageway is totally feasible.
The wires that have to go with it are not.

rubaiyat said :

For something more contemporary and hillier, look to San Francisco.

Graz I don’t know about. San Francisco public transport, I’m very familiar with. I have a current Clipper card.

The trams there don’t negotiate any gradients. They run along Market Street and the waterfront past the Ferry Building to Fishermans Wharf. Flat all the way. They use historic streetcars from across the USA and the world. Even a couple of Melbourne trams in the fleet. http://advance.org/articles/second-melbourne-tram-joins-san-franciscos-historic-streetcar-fleet/

Those iconic cablecars climbing halfway to the stars don’t run under their own steam. The wheels aren’t powered. They are cablecars, pulled up those steep hills by cables running under the street surface.

If you are trying to tell me that trams climb up steep San Francisco hills, you are plain wrong.

OpenYourMind said :

Then on top of it all we’ve got the impending massive changes that electric cars, self driving cars, telecommuting etc. will bring about.

One of the stated aims of the NBN is to make it easier for telecommuting. Personally I think people will use additional bandwidth for piracy purposes, but Julia Gillard didn’t mention that aspect, so we’ll go with the telecommuting.

I’ll throw ride-sharing and Uber into the mix. I think we can arrange car travel a lot more cleanly and efficiently. Especially if we have self-driving electric hire cars, which we will in a few years.

There’s a lot of room for improvement, and filling that room will remove any need for expensive, inflexible infrastructure such as light rail.

rubaiyat said :

So without calculating the massive cost of all the roads (because no-one seems to have bothered recording them) just the cars are costing each and every Canberran, man woman and child, $44,038 in capital costs, PLUS the running costs.

Most Canberrans own cars. And once you’ve sunk the capital expense into owning one, there’s no point in letting it sit idle. Might as well throw money away.

If we had a public transport system that could handle everyone’s normal transport needs – work, school, shopping, childcare, visiting friends etc. – then we could lose some of the cars.

But we don’t. We have a city that is spread out, designed for large-scale car ownership and use. The tram isn’t going to help with much beyond getting between Gungahlin, Dickson and Civic. Any destinations outside that corridor need a car. Or a well-planned bus system, which is what we don’t have at the moment.

OpenYourMind said :

You’re missing the point. The car thing aint gonna change. I ride a bicycle, but I accept that Canberra is still a car city by its citizens choice and the very nature of our city. Road spending won’t change.

The light rail will be an expense over and above what we spend on roads – we’ll still spend on roads, that won’t change. Light rail will be of limited benefit to a very small subset of our rate payers. Light rail has a poor business case particularly compared to buses. Light rail can only follow a small patch of land. Light rail will more than likely cost a lot more than the original projection. Our city is in financial strife with the reduction in public servants (i.e. ratepayers), reduction in Govt spending, decentralisation of some government and the Mr Fluffy crisis. Our rates are already increasing at a much higher rate than wage growth.

The current light rail proposal takes people from Gunghalin to the City. People crazy enough to decide light rail is the best choice will still probably need to drive to the station (due to Canberra being spread out), then catch a tram to the city, then catch a bus etc. to whatever their final destination is if it’s not the city.

Then on top of it all we’ve got the impending massive changes that electric cars, self driving cars, telecommuting etc. will bring about.

Light rail is just a bad, bad idea.

We are not totally at odds. I do not believe the Gunghalin line makes sense at all. It is not backed up any visible existing or planned development.

But I do believe Light Rail of some description is inevitable because the roads and cars are not viable in the long term.

I propose the service follows the people and not the politicians.

The first leg of a TRAM network, not light rail, should be from Watson/Dickson down to Civic through Lonsdale Street, reinforcing the inner city development that is already there and steadily growing north.

The tram should be a frequent service, frequent stop curbside service to let people forget about cars and circulate along the restaurants, shops and apartments along the corridor. This spine should then grow out progressively through Civic, running though Garema Place, to the inner south and the Parliamentary Triangle, connecting tourist destinations with Kingston/Manuka/Narrabundah. The network should grow organically as development grows the population en-route.

Utimately links to the satellite centres can be put in place, as they are ready, using higher speed Light Rail connections with fewer stops because of the larger distances to be covered.

By that point Canberrans should have grown accustomed to trams and so long as they get or will foreseeable get the benefits, they will support them.

All outer areas will be covered by short hall buses into the regional centres.

Planning and the setting aside corridors and space for the connections should be done now, but building the network should be organic, to meet demand. A bit ahead of the development, with denser infill just behind.

There has been little or no forward thinking in Canberra’s planning since Burley Griffin was undermined by the bureaucrats and there was no thought to future transport other than cars, cars and more cars. Now is the time to do some real planning. Canberra is starting to grow up as it reaches critical mass as the de facto capital of southern New South Wales, without a workable transport plan it is going to get in serious trouble.

Transport is the key to the next leap forward, along with planning for higher development, and the elimination of stamp duty and social services assets tests, so householders can let go of their suburban homes without being punished.

Postal said :

Chic Henry if you’re reading this, PLEASE run for the election. Anyone else reading this please also run for the election. We desperately need more diversity on the ballot paper as Labor is taking their position for granted and the rot has set in.

Your not wrong re the rot. I think Gallagher took a convenient get out of jail free card befoe that rot really set in.

And now the ACT Gov’t has announced that a noted supporter of the Light Rail has been appointed as Chair of the ACT Heritage Council which will rule over the heritage value of building in the vacinity of the Light Rail (like they did recently on Northborne Avenue). Of course, the ACT Gov’t says that his support of Light Rail had nothing to do with his appointment ! Yeah. Right.

How much more contemptuous of ACT voters/ratepayers can this ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t get !

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Skyring said :

Chic Henry makes some good points about crossing the lake and traversing hills to extend the network. Another bridge over the lake would be expensive and would be necessary as rail vehicles have difficulty operating on gradients steeper than 1 in 30.

It is hard to think of a feasible route from Civic to Belconnen or Woden which does not involve either gradients steeper than this or extensive engineering, such as tunnels.

Making up non-existent obstacles is always a good way of handling a debate.

There is nowhere an impassable gradient anywhere in Canberra. If Austria and Switzerland can cope surely we can.

Light rail can very easily cross the lake between the spans of both the Commonwealth and King George bridges.

Mountainous nations in Europe run steep railways, for sure, but not with steel wheels on steel rails. They use racks and cogs.

Carrying a tram line between the spans of the Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges would be expensive, and the line would have to be level. Ascending the slope along either avenue in the direction of Capital Hill would be more than is possible for light rail. Unless we go for the racks and cogs, and then we’re talking double the price.

A tram will easily conquer Commonwealth Bridge from both directions as long as it has power supplied by a catenary.
The NCA has already said there are not to be any overhead wires on the bridges so that leaves several (expensive) options that probably won’t deliver the grunt required.
It won’t happen anyway so let’s not stress about it.
Interestingly, the NCA sees wires and stanchions as ugly so why can’t the rest of you see it too?.

Chic Henry if you’re reading this, PLEASE run for the election. Anyone else reading this please also run for the election. We desperately need more diversity on the ballot paper as Labor is taking their position for granted and the rot has set in.

OpenYourMind6:15 pm 03 Mar 15

rubaiyat said :

Here’s a quick calculation for all you financial wizards out there:

Vehicles registered in ACT in 2014 was 279,352 with an average capital cost of say $30,000.

That’s a capital investment of $8.4 billion dollars mostly either sitting in your driveway or the $30,000 garage to house it (add another $8.4 billion) before it even starts burning fuel, costing registration, insurance and maintenance. You can add a considerable health bill on top of that now.

Virtually all of that money is going overseas.

So what is clear this isn’t a “need” it is an irrational obsession, reinforced by an extreme never ending marketing campaign by everyone who can make a buck out of getting your lard arse in the drivers seat and then selling you diets, drugs and cures to get the lard off. A funeral service when they all fail, or you total the car or someone, with the car.

You’re missing the point. The car thing aint gonna change. I ride a bicycle, but I accept that Canberra is still a car city by its citizens choice and the very nature of our city. Road spending won’t change.

The light rail will be an expense over and above what we spend on roads – we’ll still spend on roads, that won’t change. Light rail will be of limited benefit to a very small subset of our rate payers. Light rail has a poor business case particularly compared to buses. Light rail can only follow a small patch of land. Light rail will more than likely cost a lot more than the original projection. Our city is in financial strife with the reduction in public servants (i.e. ratepayers), reduction in Govt spending, decentralisation of some government and the Mr Fluffy crisis. Our rates are already increasing at a much higher rate than wage growth.

The current light rail proposal takes people from Gunghalin to the City. People crazy enough to decide light rail is the best choice will still probably need to drive to the station (due to Canberra being spread out), then catch a tram to the city, then catch a bus etc. to whatever their final destination is if it’s not the city.

Then on top of it all we’ve got the impending massive changes that electric cars, self driving cars, telecommuting etc. will bring about.

Light rail is just a bad, bad idea.

Skyring said :

If we had buses running along the route, completely packed and struggling to cope, then light rail might be an answer.

But I invite all to check to largely empty state of buses traveling down Northbourne.

If we had cars running along the route, completely packed and struggling to cope*, then roads might be an answer.

But I invite all to check to largely empty cars traveling down Northbourne at the same time.

The express buses are actually standing room in peak hour.

* Just the driver. Crawling along, swearing at their Yell Back Radio for more money, who cares how much, to be spent on roads.

Skyring said :

Mountainous nations in Europe run steep railways, for sure, but not with steel wheels on steel rails. They use racks and cogs.

Carrying a tram line between the spans of the Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges would be expensive, and the line would have to be level. Ascending the slope along either avenue in the direction of Capital Hill would be more than is possible for light rail. Unless we go for the racks and cogs, and then we’re talking double the price.

We really are the Can’t Do It Nation!

My Mum’s home town is Graz, where Arnie comes from, and the 80 year trams there have no trouble running out through the meadows and up the hill to Maria Trost without the supposed “zahnzug” you are talking about.

Also go have a look around Newtown and Marrickville in Sydney. You can still see where the old trams negotiated not only steep gradients but also tight curves at the same time. For something more contemporary and hillier, look to San Francisco.

I could design you a simple and elegant triangulated tubular steel support structure fitting between the twin laneways on the bridges that you could swing in place with a couple of cranes.

The objections are just that, along the lines of “bumble bees can not fly” and women have less teeth than men. “Facts” for those who Never, Ever, check.

It was “impossible” or “too expensive” to have dug out the Russell interchange and overpass, or span the mighty Molonglo with the Majura Parkway!

But that’s different! It is for the endless freeways that Never, Ever, have to pay for themselves. Or face public scrutiny but simply slash through the countryside, wiping out all in their path, or crossing it.

I always enjoy looking at the artists impression of how these things look so bloody nice. How could you not have one or two about the place. It makes us look so cosmopolitan, or something.
I did like the recent artists impression where the canopy of trees completely covered the tracks . Made the thing look so ‘dinky’, you know, dainty and nice.
(As they can’t draw trams all day long, do you think they may work for real estate developers.)

rubaiyat said :

Skyring said :

Chic Henry makes some good points about crossing the lake and traversing hills to extend the network. Another bridge over the lake would be expensive and would be necessary as rail vehicles have difficulty operating on gradients steeper than 1 in 30.

It is hard to think of a feasible route from Civic to Belconnen or Woden which does not involve either gradients steeper than this or extensive engineering, such as tunnels.

Making up non-existent obstacles is always a good way of handling a debate.

There is nowhere an impassable gradient anywhere in Canberra. If Austria and Switzerland can cope surely we can.

Light rail can very easily cross the lake between the spans of both the Commonwealth and King George bridges.

Mountainous nations in Europe run steep railways, for sure, but not with steel wheels on steel rails. They use racks and cogs.

Carrying a tram line between the spans of the Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges would be expensive, and the line would have to be level. Ascending the slope along either avenue in the direction of Capital Hill would be more than is possible for light rail. Unless we go for the racks and cogs, and then we’re talking double the price.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that buses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

If we had buses running along the route, completely packed and struggling to cope, then light rail might be an answer.

But I invite all to check to largely empty state of buses traveling down Northbourne.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

dungfungus said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

In the ACT, common sense is a distant third to visionary and vibrancy.

It has to be like Copenhagen. Or Switzerland. Or somewhere in Europe.

More likely “Gay Paris”.

rubaiyat said :

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

This would be the Parliament House started by Fraser in 1978 in his second term.

As a Liberal apparently.

The point, as others have grasped, is that both sides supported the project and the decade it took to complete was five years Liberal, five Labor.

This project is supported by one side only, doesn’t have the support of the people behind it, and if we’re talking Gungahlin Drive Extension as an example of local projects, will never be completed.

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

The capital cost of a car is a lot less than $30,000 (average). I have only paid more than $30,000 for a new car once in my life.
Cars have never been cheaper and this is why bus travel is diminishing. Cars are also very fuel efficient and a lot cleaner running than they were 20 years ago. Then there is the convenience factor.
Buses are ideal for mass transit and they are more flexible than trams.
Anyhow, you can’t compare private expenditure on cars to that of government expenditure on public transport.

All I can say is look around you in Canberra that $30,00 would be the average, irregardless of what you choose.

Cars are cheaper but operating them is not. It is that simple “ink jet printer” thinking that is distorting rational decisions.

How much does that 2 or 3 car garage that seems to be an essential part of e3very house, now, cost? That is not getting cheaper. Neither are the roads and infrastructure needed to make cars possible.

Buses are dirty, noisy and have short lives. Can’t put a figure on how frequently ACTION has to replace theirs but it is a lot less than 10 years even for the average car. They also do a massive amount of damage to the roads. I personally tripped over a massive bitumen wave they pushed up in Civic opposite the Assembly building.

Buses also require a lot of drivers which the ACT is short of and is the cause why ACTION buses sometimes don’t even show up.

Yes we can compare private expenditure on cars to government expenditure on public transport, because besides the irrational personal choices, the government is blowing a lot on keeping those cars on the road.

Just because you don’t know and don’t pay attention to road costs doesn’t mean it isn’t transport costs. And unlike public transport the government doesn’t charge for the roads.

Lets see what people’s choices would be if they had to pay a “pedestrian rego” and then get to travel free everywhere for whatever it costs them in shoes and socks.

Can you stop making stuff up, that is not even aimed at your use of the word “irregardless”.

FWIW, some of the buses were a 1988 delivery…

VYBerlinaV8_is_back3:09 pm 03 Mar 15

dungfungus said :

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

In the ACT, common sense is a distant third to visionary and vibrancy.

It has to be like Copenhagen. Or Switzerland. Or somewhere in Europe.

dungfungus said :

The capital cost of a car is a lot less than $30,000 (average). I have only paid more than $30,000 for a new car once in my life.
Cars have never been cheaper and this is why bus travel is diminishing. Cars are also very fuel efficient and a lot cleaner running than they were 20 years ago. Then there is the convenience factor.
Buses are ideal for mass transit and they are more flexible than trams.
Anyhow, you can’t compare private expenditure on cars to that of government expenditure on public transport.

All I can say is look around you in Canberra that $30,00 would be the average, irregardless of what you choose.

Cars are cheaper but operating them is not. It is that simple “ink jet printer” thinking that is distorting rational decisions.

How much does that 2 or 3 car garage that seems to be an essential part of e3very house, now, cost? That is not getting cheaper. Neither are the roads and infrastructure needed to make cars possible.

Buses are dirty, noisy and have short lives. Can’t put a figure on how frequently ACTION has to replace theirs but it is a lot less than 10 years even for the average car. They also do a massive amount of damage to the roads. I personally tripped over a massive bitumen wave they pushed up in Civic opposite the Assembly building.

Buses also require a lot of drivers which the ACT is short of and is the cause why ACTION buses sometimes don’t even show up.

Yes we can compare private expenditure on cars to government expenditure on public transport, because besides the irrational personal choices, the government is blowing a lot on keeping those cars on the road.

Just because you don’t know and don’t pay attention to road costs doesn’t mean it isn’t transport costs. And unlike public transport the government doesn’t charge for the roads.

Lets see what people’s choices would be if they had to pay a “pedestrian rego” and then get to travel free everywhere for whatever it costs them in shoes and socks.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

switch said :

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

In the ACT, common sense is a distant third to visionary and vibrancy.

rubaiyat said :

Here’s a quick calculation for all you financial wizards out there:

Vehicles registered in ACT in 2014 was 279,352 with an average capital cost of say $30,000.

That’s a capital investment of $8.4 billion dollars mostly either sitting in your driveway or the $30,000 garage to house it (add another $8.4 billion) before it even starts burning fuel, costing registration, insurance and maintenance. You can add a considerable health bill on top of that now.

Virtually all of that money is going overseas.

So what is clear this isn’t a “need” it is an irrational obsession, reinforced by an extreme never ending marketing campaign by everyone who can make a buck out of getting your lard arse in the drivers seat and then selling you diets, drugs and cures to get the lard off. A funeral service when they all fail, or you total the car or someone, with the car.

The capital cost of a car is a lot less than $30,000 (average). I have only paid more than $30,000 for a new car once in my life.
Cars have never been cheaper and this is why bus travel is diminishing. Cars are also very fuel efficient and a lot cleaner running than they were 20 years ago. Then there is the convenience factor.
Buses are ideal for mass transit and they are more flexible than trams.
Anyhow, you can’t compare private expenditure on cars to that of government expenditure on public transport.

rubaiyat said :

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

It isn’t public transport per se, it is the fact that busses could do what the tram is offering for about half the price. A report that came out last year shows that, along with common sense.

aussie2 said :

We already own ACTION yet subsidise it to the tune of $140m pa. TAMS sent me the network map and there are eight routes on it including Gungahlin. That Gungahlin route is expected to cost $1Billion capital, not including ongoing maintenance. Including the other seven, there are 153km of Light rail. Divide that by 12km, and you get 13 “packets” of tracks times $1Billion. Divide that by approx. 250 000 taxpayers that will contribute to the cost of the network, and run that over the life of the project-30years, equates to around $65K or $2200 increase in taxes pa. Then you have to add the maintenance costs. There was no mention of this kind of money at the 2012 Election, and THEY don’t want any sort of referendum.Keep in mind, we own ACTION but SOMEONE has to payback the contractor for his investment-GUESS WHO?

Let’s simply compare this to my quick calculation of the $16.8 billion tied up in cars just in the ACT, and that is without any of the running costs or the massively greater cost of the roads which are totally subsidised by the government you do not have to pay a toll anywhere in the ACT or surrounds.

Given the calculated 68¢ per km running cost from Gungahlin to the city will cost you $17.32 return plus at least $10 parking.

For the mathematically challenged that is at least $27.32 to go to work and back. Add the extra kilometres from where you actually live and it is closer to $35.

So without calculating the massive cost of all the roads (because no-one seems to have bothered recording them) just the cars are costing each and every Canberran, man woman and child, $44,038 in capital costs, PLUS the running costs.

Cars have a far shorter life compared with trams and the light rail infrastructure, so need to be replaced at least every 10 years if not sooner according to abs. They also require far more maintenance and take up a large part of the area of our cities. A disproportionate area of all commercial and residential buildings is taken up with car access and parking, plus the mechanical engineering to rid the building of the car fumes.

Practically all the cars and fuel have to be imported, soon to be all. So this is all money flowing out of Australia. To pay for all of that we are forced to export vast amounts of coal and minerals.

Of course you could look at the overall problem of getting people from A to B rationally, but that isn’t going to happen on any side of this debate.

$27 million didn’t even pay for that one intersection at Russell.

Given the rates we pay the ACT government can certainly do some public transport for our money.

Public transport that isn’t a total financial loss like the roads.

Why do people struggle with simple comparisons?

Is it the maths? Having to add up anything bigger than the cost of a bus fare?

OK, there are a few points I need to make.

dungfungus:
Fraser was a moderate Liberal and is still a moderate Liberal but left the party because it became too conservative in his eyes. That does not mean he has left-wing political beliefs.

rubaiyat:
When you refer to each vehicle on a road costing the taxpayer $30-50,000, I’m assuming that you’re saying that the taxpayer will need to spend that much to buy their car and not that the government will need to spend that much in tax revenue for each vehicle that uses the road. If that’s correct, you’re doubling up the capital costs as the ATO cents per km rate also includes the cost of buying the car. If not, can you please explain how the government has to spend $30-50,000 for each car that uses a road after it has been constructed.

rubaiyat:
The tram, after factoring in the return on capital and running costs, will cost $70-100m p.a. Around 7% of Canberrans might live within walking distance, so scaling it up to cover all of Canberra would provide a replacement public transport system for only $1000-1428m p.a. compared to Action’s cost to the taxpayer of $140m p.a. Even if the construction was magically paid for and we only had to worry about the running costs of $23m p.a., when scaled up to cover the whole city it would still cost more than double what the busses are costing us. There have to be better uses for the money. How about a new hospital, a new convention centre, the transformative city to the lake project or even something boring like building up some financial reserves for the ACT after the big and growing deficits of this Labor/Greens government so that we have funds available to meet unexpected contingencies.

rigseismic6710:56 am 03 Mar 15

Yes but if the cost of vehicle registration combined in the ACT is approx $27 million the government can certainly do some road works for our money.

Here’s a quick calculation for all you financial wizards out there:

Vehicles registered in ACT in 2014 was 279,352 with an average capital cost of say $30,000.

That’s a capital investment of $8.4 billion dollars mostly either sitting in your driveway or the $30,000 garage to house it (add another $8.4 billion) before it even starts burning fuel, costing registration, insurance and maintenance. You can add a considerable health bill on top of that now.

Virtually all of that money is going overseas.

So what is clear this isn’t a “need” it is an irrational obsession, reinforced by an extreme never ending marketing campaign by everyone who can make a buck out of getting your lard arse in the drivers seat and then selling you diets, drugs and cures to get the lard off. A funeral service when they all fail, or you total the car or someone, with the car.

Don’t forget all the other double standards: like Light Rail only really gets used during peak hours, UNLIKE roads!

…and public transport isn’t full in off peak, UNLIKE all the one occupant cars you see clogging up the roads and filling up the delightful car parks.

Worse, Light Rail does a really poor job of killing people, unlike cars which if they don’t run you over slowly kill their occupants with lack of exercise, and everyone with their pollution.

dungfungus said :

Skyring said :

dungfungus said :

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

I think building commenced under the Fraser government (Fraser was then a Liberal, now a lefty) and of course it was a unanimous decision by all parties and stakeholders to go ahead. Even journalists were provided with a meditation room.
The final cost was $1.4 billion dollars.

It was a bipartisan thing.

Which this tram thing isn’t. Public opinion seems to be firmly against it. Can’t think of anyone in Tuggeranong keen to see their rates go up to pay for this thing.

It’s too late to complain about Labor’s rates increasing as that was voted on in the 2012 election.
Labor and the media repudiated the suggestion by the Liberals that our rates would triple.
Just two years later it is clear that the Liberals were correct.
I know it sounds corny but we really do have the government we deserve.

YOUR rates tripled? I’d get a lawsuit out for discrimination!

dungfungus said :

Those three road projects you nominated were actually needed.
A light rail anywhere in Canberra isn’t needed.

Says who?

That is the nub of the problem. People spend enormous amounts of money buying, housing, parking and running cars then when they sit in traffic jams burning up fossil fuels, working on their personal obessity and listening to yell back radio, they scream at their politicians:

“We NEED more roads!”

Notice how cleverly I demonstrated those “missing millions” 😀

As an add on how do the people of Tuggeranong feel about the cost of roads in the Majura Valley, Gughalin, Molonglo, Russell, Cotter or anywhere that isn’t at the end of their driveway?

Or the people in Gunghalin for roadworks in Tuggeranong?

rubaiyat said :

aussie2 said :

We already own ACTION yet subsidise it to the tune of $140m pa. TAMS sent me the network map and there are eight routes on it including Gungahlin. That Gungahlin route is expected to cost $1Billion capital, not including ongoing maintenance. Including the other seven, there are 153km of Light rail. Divide that by 12km, and you get 13 “packets” of tracks times $1Billion. Divide that by approx. 250 000 taxpayers that will contribute to the cost of the network, and run that over the life of the project-30years, equates to around $65K or $2200 increase in taxes pa. Then you have to add the maintenance costs. There was no mention of this kind of money at the 2012 Election, and THEY don’t want any sort of referendum.Keep in mind, we own ACTION but SOMEONE has to payback the contractor for his investment-GUESS WHO?

How much do you think the roads cost?

The Majura Parkway is only 11.5 kms and is costing $288 and will lose money from day one, as has every road in the ACT. We do not have tollways.

Further to operate vehicles on it will cost the taxpayers $30-50,000 for each vehicle. Personal operating costs are on top of that but according to the taxation department around 68¢ km so will cost each driver $7.82 to drive from one end to the other.

The tiny 1.7km Cotter Road duplication is costing $18 million and taken years.

The Kings Avenue overpass at Russell cost $30 million and took 2 years.

Obviously all these wildly expensive projects to mainly move people from and to work in the morning and evening peak hours has driven the ACT to the brink of bankruptcy and will mean we will have to sell our children and grandchildren into slavery.

Thankfully the ‘fiscally responsible’ Liberals are standing ready to throw out any government that suggests they will build ANY roads or car parks in the ACT. Especially as they will all need to be built overhead, will need new bridges and tunnels to traverse our extreme geography, and will cause unsightly signage and traffic lights along their routes.

Those three road projects you nominated were actually needed.
A light rail anywhere in Canberra isn’t needed.

Skyring said :

dungfungus said :

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

I think building commenced under the Fraser government (Fraser was then a Liberal, now a lefty) and of course it was a unanimous decision by all parties and stakeholders to go ahead. Even journalists were provided with a meditation room.
The final cost was $1.4 billion dollars.

It was a bipartisan thing.

Which this tram thing isn’t. Public opinion seems to be firmly against it. Can’t think of anyone in Tuggeranong keen to see their rates go up to pay for this thing.

It’s too late to complain about Labor’s rates increasing as that was voted on in the 2012 election.
Labor and the media repudiated the suggestion by the Liberals that our rates would triple.
Just two years later it is clear that the Liberals were correct.
I know it sounds corny but we really do have the government we deserve.

aussie2 said :

We already own ACTION yet subsidise it to the tune of $140m pa. TAMS sent me the network map and there are eight routes on it including Gungahlin. That Gungahlin route is expected to cost $1Billion capital, not including ongoing maintenance. Including the other seven, there are 153km of Light rail. Divide that by 12km, and you get 13 “packets” of tracks times $1Billion. Divide that by approx. 250 000 taxpayers that will contribute to the cost of the network, and run that over the life of the project-30years, equates to around $65K or $2200 increase in taxes pa. Then you have to add the maintenance costs. There was no mention of this kind of money at the 2012 Election, and THEY don’t want any sort of referendum.Keep in mind, we own ACTION but SOMEONE has to payback the contractor for his investment-GUESS WHO?

How much do you think the roads cost?

The Majura Parkway is only 11.5 kms and is costing $288 and will lose money from day one, as has every road in the ACT. We do not have tollways.

Further to operate vehicles on it will cost the taxpayers $30-50,000 for each vehicle. Personal operating costs are on top of that but according to the taxation department around 68¢ km so will cost each driver $7.82 to drive from one end to the other.

The tiny 1.7km Cotter Road duplication is costing $18 million and taken years.

The Kings Avenue overpass at Russell cost $30 million and took 2 years.

Obviously all these wildly expensive projects to mainly move people from and to work in the morning and evening peak hours has driven the ACT to the brink of bankruptcy and will mean we will have to sell our children and grandchildren into slavery.

Thankfully the ‘fiscally responsible’ Liberals are standing ready to throw out any government that suggests they will build ANY roads or car parks in the ACT. Especially as they will all need to be built overhead, will need new bridges and tunnels to traverse our extreme geography, and will cause unsightly signage and traffic lights along their routes.

dungfungus said :

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

I think building commenced under the Fraser government (Fraser was then a Liberal, now a lefty) and of course it was a unanimous decision by all parties and stakeholders to go ahead. Even journalists were provided with a meditation room.
The final cost was $1.4 billion dollars.

It was a bipartisan thing.

Which this tram thing isn’t. Public opinion seems to be firmly against it. Can’t think of anyone in Tuggeranong keen to see their rates go up to pay for this thing.

Skyring said :

Chic Henry makes some good points about crossing the lake and traversing hills to extend the network. Another bridge over the lake would be expensive and would be necessary as rail vehicles have difficulty operating on gradients steeper than 1 in 30.

It is hard to think of a feasible route from Civic to Belconnen or Woden which does not involve either gradients steeper than this or extensive engineering, such as tunnels.

Making up non-existent obstacles is always a good way of handling a debate.

There is nowhere an impassable gradient anywhere in Canberra. If Austria and Switzerland can cope surely we can.

Light rail can very easily cross the lake between the spans of both the Commonwealth and King George bridges.

So, unless you have found it ‘necessary’ to build a nuclear reactor inside a volcano, you’ll have to look elsewhere for concocted cost blow outs.

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

This would be the Parliament House started by Fraser in 1978 in his second term.

As a Liberal apparently.

Typically for the Liberals it was neither on budget or on time, except in the fantasy world inhabited by Liberal Party supporters, the one where flogging off the family furniture at the pawn brokers is good household budget management.

Skyring said :

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

I think building commenced under the Fraser government (Fraser was then a Liberal, now a lefty) and of course it was a unanimous decision by all parties and stakeholders to go ahead. Even journalists were provided with a meditation room.
The final cost was $1.4 billion dollars.

There probably won’t be a next stage. I can see it extending to Russell and maybe to Manuka and Kingston. That is as far as it will go. To make the tram viable they need a high density corridor, which is what they are creating. It may work in that sense, but its not a solution for all of Canberra.

which is it, watto? no next stage; or extensions east, and south across the lake?

and why do you imagine there needs to be a single, one-size-fits-all solution for canberra?

Both houses of federal government, have seen the future in the NBN.
Working from home and home run businesses and IP are going to make the money.
Traveling to work because that is where the work is at is heavily declining.

I’m not sure about light rail but I’m sure many folk are hoping that Labours inability to deliver anything on time pushes this light rail wet dream out the window at the next election.

rubaiyat said :

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change…

This would be the Parliament House opened in 1988 by the government led by Bob Hawke, midway through his second term?

As a Liberal, apparently.

aussie2 said :

We already own ACTION yet subsidise it to the tune of $140m pa. TAMS sent me the network map and there are eight routes on it including Gungahlin. That Gungahlin route is expected to cost $1Billion capital, not including ongoing maintenance. Including the other seven, there are 153km of Light rail. Divide that by 12km, and you get 13 “packets” of tracks times $1Billion. Divide that by approx. 250 000 taxpayers that will contribute to the cost of the network, and run that over the life of the project-30years, equates to around $65K or $2200 increase in taxes pa. Then you have to add the maintenance costs. There was no mention of this kind of money at the 2012 Election, and THEY don’t want any sort of referendum.Keep in mind, we own ACTION but SOMEONE has to payback the contractor for his investment-GUESS WHO?

But something visionary and vibrant is priceless.

Chic Henry makes some good points about crossing the lake and traversing hills to extend the network. Another bridge over the lake would be expensive and would be necessary as rail vehicles have difficulty operating on gradients steeper than 1 in 30.

It is hard to think of a feasible route from Civic to Belconnen or Woden which does not involve either gradients steeper than this or extensive engineering, such as tunnels.

aussie2 said :

We already own ACTION yet subsidise it to the tune of $140m pa. TAMS sent me the network map and there are eight routes on it including Gungahlin. That Gungahlin route is expected to cost $1Billion capital, not including ongoing maintenance. Including the other seven, there are 153km of Light rail. Divide that by 12km, and you get 13 “packets” of tracks times $1Billion. Divide that by approx. 250 000 taxpayers that will contribute to the cost of the network, and run that over the life of the project-30years, equates to around $65K or $2200 increase in taxes pa. Then you have to add the maintenance costs. There was no mention of this kind of money at the 2012 Election, and THEY don’t want any sort of referendum.Keep in mind, we own ACTION but SOMEONE has to payback the contractor for his investment-GUESS WHO?

Watch out aussie2, if you keep on talking logic and common sense, you will get attacked by the “ACT Labor Government can do no wrong” brigade here on RA !

We already own ACTION yet subsidise it to the tune of $140m pa. TAMS sent me the network map and there are eight routes on it including Gungahlin. That Gungahlin route is expected to cost $1Billion capital, not including ongoing maintenance. Including the other seven, there are 153km of Light rail. Divide that by 12km, and you get 13 “packets” of tracks times $1Billion. Divide that by approx. 250 000 taxpayers that will contribute to the cost of the network, and run that over the life of the project-30years, equates to around $65K or $2200 increase in taxes pa. Then you have to add the maintenance costs. There was no mention of this kind of money at the 2012 Election, and THEY don’t want any sort of referendum.Keep in mind, we own ACTION but SOMEONE has to payback the contractor for his investment-GUESS WHO?

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

It’s not fear the Liberals are spreading; it’s fact.
And the Liberals have commissioned and presented credible research to back up their assessment that the light rail is a non-goer.

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change, or massively expensive detention camps, or Bruce Stadium (the one they “lost” the files for).

The Liberals do have a history of ‘Sensible’ opposition to most things, like the National Botanical Gardens, the Sydney Harbour Bridge, the Sydney Opera House, Medibank, even the Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme. Lets not mention the NBN, National Parks, anything environmental or intellectual, the ABC, the Commonwealth Bank etc etc.

Things they never need costing for are National Party pork barelling, endless freeways, military toys, privatisation of public monopolies into private monopolies, tax cuts for mates and NBN Mark II aka the Telstra Chokehold Mark II.

I suppose that you oppose personal jet-packs then?

HiddenDragon5:39 pm 02 Mar 15

No reflection on Chic Henry, but by next October, there’ll be plenty of Canberrans ready to vote for the proverbial drover’s dog if he, she or it promised to stop the trams.

Oh, and every single Free Trade Agreement they have stitched up, that has directly gifted hundreds of billions overseas.

dungfungus said :

It’s not fear the Liberals are spreading; it’s fact.
And the Liberals have commissioned and presented credible research to back up their assessment that the light rail is a non-goer.

Didn’t stop the Liberals building a billion dollar Parliament House on the Hill back when a billion wasn’t loose change, or massively expensive detention camps, or Bruce Stadium (the one they “lost” the files for).

The Liberals do have a history of ‘Sensible’ opposition to most things, like the National Botanical Gardens, the Sydney Harbour Bridge, the Sydney Opera House, Medibank, even the Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme. Lets not mention the NBN, National Parks, anything environmental or intellectual, the ABC, the Commonwealth Bank etc etc.

Things they never need costing for are National Party pork barelling, endless freeways, military toys, privatisation of public monopolies into private monopolies, tax cuts for mates and NBN Mark II aka the Telstra Chokehold Mark II.

watto23 said :

There probably won’t be a next stage. I can see it extending to Russell and maybe to Manuka and Kingston. That is as far as it will go. To make the tram viable they need a high density corridor, which is what they are creating. It may work in that sense, but its not a solution for all of Canberra.

That said the thing that annoys me most about right wing politics is the use of fear. Those who worry too much and fear everything too much will never also do anything that has potential to be great because they fear the downsides too much.

The liberals in the ACT have let us down, because the best argument they can come up with is to spread fear about the cost. It is a genuine concern, but the use of fear rather than coming up with an alternative solution or use facts to reason against doesn’t seem to be a skill political parties have any more. Far easier to scare people into voting against something, than it is to present well laid out facts and research.

As for Chic Henry, if he really wants to help the liberals it would be better to run a right wing independent. If he runs as a liberal, he’ll just be winning a seat that another liberal candidate would win anyway.

Your first paragraph was really all that was needed.
How can the Canberra Liberals have “let us down” when they have been out of power for about 12 years?
They have never proposed a light rail because it just isn’t viable, mainly because it isn’t needed in the first place.
It’s not fear the Liberals are spreading; it’s fact.
And the Liberals have commissioned and presented credible research to back up their assessment that the light rail is a non-goer.
As far as an “alternative solution” (to a non-problem), what should the Liberals have proposed, personal jet-packs for every resident?

There probably won’t be a next stage. I can see it extending to Russell and maybe to Manuka and Kingston. That is as far as it will go. To make the tram viable they need a high density corridor, which is what they are creating. It may work in that sense, but its not a solution for all of Canberra.

That said the thing that annoys me most about right wing politics is the use of fear. Those who worry too much and fear everything too much will never also do anything that has potential to be great because they fear the downsides too much. The liberals in the ACT have let us down, because the best argument they can come up with is to spread fear about the cost. It is a genuine concern, but the use of fear rather than coming up with an alternative solution or use facts to reason against doesn’t seem to be a skill political parties have any more. Far easier to scare people into voting against something, than it is to present well laid out facts and research.

As for Chic Henry, if he really wants to help the liberals it would be better to run a right wing independent. If he runs as a liberal, he’ll just be winning a seat that another liberal candidate would win anyway.

An insight into “value capture” and how it can be used for “value dedication” in urban transport.
http://www.fiscalexcellence.org/blog/valuecapture.html
Our government is taking an enormous risk not only with the light rail but now establishing of their own worker’s compensation business.
Doesn’t take long for the memories of millions of dollars invested and lost in Rhodium Asset Solutions and Transact to be forgotten. And there is the ongoing problem of not being able to manage the public servants retirement fund.
Why waste your time, Chic?

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