"History will be kind to us, because we will write it"
At his press conference this lunchtime Simon Corbell was keen to stress that all the options are being considered.
But consider these two points:
2. The media release has these paragraphs:
“These cost estimates by URS Australia Pty Ltd, show that Bus Rapid Transit is estimated to cost between $300m-$360 million while light rail transit would require an investment of between $700m-$860 million. These are initial estimates and require further detailed investigation,” Mr Corbell said.
“Initial transport modelling suggests that if it was in place now, the BRT proposal would cut delays in peak travel times between Civic and Gungahlin from 16 minutes, as they currently stand, to approximately eight minutes, while the light rail option would see the delay reduced to less than 6 minutes,” he said.
Anyone want to spend an extra $400 million for a 2 minute reduction in travel time?
There’s a pretty glossy for the transport fetishists which includes this fetching concept drawing:
The Greens were loitering nearby so we expect to hear from them soon:
UPDATE 18/04/12 13:55: The Greens have chimed in:
The ACT Greens have welcomed the positive conclusions of an ACT government study on transit options for the Civic-Gungahlin corridor, but reminded the Government about its history of repeated rhetoric and inaction on the issue.
“We are hopeful once again that this study is the first step of an active, committed pathway to light rail or bus rapid transit for Canberra’s growing population,” Greens transport spokesperson, Amanda Bresnan MLA, said today.
“But a Minister standing on Northbourne Avenue talking about light rail has a certain déjà vu from previous election years. Today’s announcements are issues we know already because they have been assessed and announced before.
“The ACT Government has made numerous announcements about the findings of public transport studies and engaged in positive rhetoric about the opportunities, only to then take the projects nowhere.
Particular fun can be had with their timeline:
Timewarp Timeline
1994: study found light rail was feasible for Canberra. (Canberra Light Rail Implementation Study)
2001: Minister Stanhope: “We will conduct a feasibility study into light rail and conduct public consultation on the findings.”
2002: Minister Corbell: “this government is interested in exploring issues around light rail”
2003: Minister Corbell: “This government is not afraid to put light rail back on the agenda. This government is not afraid to consider light rail as a potential transport mode for this city.”
2004: Consultant’s study ‘Canberra Public Transport Futures Feasibility Study’ tests and assesses the introduction of light rail or bus rapid transit on the Gungahlin to Civic routes, the benefits, and the costs. Finds it is economically feasible and beneficial.
2005: Consultant’s study on Northbourne Avenue recommends light rail on the median strip corridor; identifies millions of dollars of benefits to building rapid transit on the Northern corridor (SMEC Northbourne Avenue report).
2008: Minister Stanhope: “I am extremely pleased to be able to announce that the ACT government is moving ahead with its exploration of light rail …”
2008: Consultant’s study finds millions of dollars of benefits to light rail, and that light rail would maximise transport efficiency and accessibility and minimize environmental and social impacts of transport in Canberra (Price Waterhouse Coopers Light Rail Study)
2011: Simon Corbell: “we have put light rail firmly back on the agenda as an option along the Northbourne Avenue corridor”
2012: Most recent study repeats the benefits of rapid transit and light rail. Government again talks about implementation, consultation.
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damien haas said :
You say you attended the press conference as the Chairman of ACT LightRail and listened to the conference in its entirety. You were also stunned when Simon Corbell announced the 300 million for BRT and 870 million for Light Rail and couldn’t understand why the journos at the conference didn’t question him on this. If you were present as Chair of ACT LightRail and were so stunned, why didn’t you question him?
I have read some of the report. My understanding is that the study and consultation process isn’t complete. There is also the opportunity to provide written feedback to raise any concerns and a survey form. There are also community consultation sessions planned in Dickson, Gungahlin and Civic where all interested parties (including you as Chairman of ACT Light Rail) can provide further feedback and raise any concerns you may have. The final report is anticipated to be released in June 2012.
Also, I can’t see what is wrong with turning the rego office in Dickson into a community precinct with a bus station/shopping mall. I’m a regular bus user and it sounds pretty good to me. Northbourne Avenue is one of the busiest traffic corridors in Canberra with thousands of people travelling down there every day. Look at what they did with the Belco bus interchange.
Given it cost the ACT govt $80 million + to build two tiny ponds at North Weston (assuming project ever gets finished – after two years it still looks like a barren hole in the ground with no construction workers to be seen), $800m for 12km of light rail is probably a conservative estimate by ACT project delivery standards.
I’d rather the money be spent on improved bus services than light rail simply because it’d be harder for the ACT govt to stuff up than an infrastructure project – and stuff it up they most certainly will.
ka1042 said :
Time and place, time and place. I’m not hijacking a Ministers press conference.
Also, i’m not a journo. i listened, then waited for my turn to be interviewed.
I’d love the entire transcript of what Corbell said to be released. Questions asked dont equal questions answered. He talked for 10-15 minutes. He will be lucky to get perhaps 30 seconds of what he actually said on the electronic media.
ka1042 said :
Thanks for that, let me shake the magic 8 ball and see what the reports final outcome will be.
Ben_Dover said :
Monorail is more of a North Haverbrook thing…
That timeline is hilarious. If only it took that long to start wars.
We should start celebrating 10th anniversaries: 10th anniversary of the Corbell Light Rail Exploration. Make it a public holiday. Send flowers. Or a Light Rail Dreams Memorial Plaque along Anzac Parade. Canberra does memorials well.
We could even set up an online bet for which is built first/last:
1. New Sydney Airport.
2. Rail to Melbourne Airport
3. Light rail on George Street Sydney
4. Light rail in Canberra.
6. Sydney Northwest railway line
7. Third Canberra Hospital
8. NBN
9. Canberra Ikea
10. More frequent buses to Weston Creek
FioBla said :
2nd Sydney airport was ready to be built in 1991. I still think my car will fly or I’ll have my personal jetpack by the time it’s ready to go.
damien haas said :
Damien Haas Chair of ACT Light Rail Organisation is very critical of the ACT government’s City to Gungahlin Transit Corridor report.
I’m interested in who this organisation is as I haven’t heard of them before so I looked on the internet. The website is very vague and light on detail. It says: “ACT Light Rail are (stet) the peak light rail lobby group in the Australian Capital Territory. We are an important organisation in Canberra with members from Community Councils, all political parties, environmental groups and members of the general public.”
Despite these claims they do not name any of their members. Is this organisation a registered legitimate lobby organisation in the ACT? If so, do they have any commercial or political connections which may cause conflict? Who are they and how are they funded?
ACT Light Rail website: “We believe that light rail offers the best form of mass transit for the ACT, and will serve as the backbone of an integrated public transport system incorporating bus’s, park and rides, bicycles and active transport.”
Apart from the really really bad spelling and grammar, does this organisation have any clout and legitimate studies to back up their claim that light rail offers the best form of mass transit in the ACT?
ACT Light Rail website: “The ACT Light Rail committee meet regularly to discuss public transport matters of interest and determine our lobbying activities. We hold public meetings on a regular basis.
If your organisation supports light rail in the Capital region, please email dchaas67 at gmail.com.au”.
Despite 2004 govt costings at $200m, abc news keeps reporting $800m ridiculous figure verbatim. I have never been so frustrated. How about doing a little background, fellas?
thebadtouch said :
yes.
if the ACT Govt (aka fancy local council) used some simple logic, they would see that their existing measures (such as more expensive car parking) to encourage more use of public transport have failed.
therefore why spend a stupid amount of money on another form of public transport that won’t be used?
3Km extension to the Adelaide light rail network 3 years ago cost 100 million dollars.
You do the math.
Everything I post is under my own name. Its my right to be critical of any policy or action i dont agree with. Some people whine anonymously on the internet, other people seek like minded individuals and take action.
If youre going to misquote selectively, at least cut and paste properly and dont insert random words.
If you would like to attend a meeting, contact me and I will add you to the mailing list.
Its a self funded organisation. Members pay for all costs out of their own pocket. We havent received a cracker from any government body or political party. I am not a member of any political party. To my knowledge there are no commercial conflicts. We are advocating for improved public transport – its pretty hard to winkle a conspiracy out of that, but you go right ahead and keep digging.
Anything else ?
Meanwhile, we have now slowed the trip from West Belconnen to City along William Hovell Dr. by 25 seconds with the sly reduction of the speed limit to 80km/h just the other day. I mean, where is the consistency!!
“$400 million for a 2 minute reduction in travel time?”. The increase in travel from West Belco by 25 seconds cost them about $85,000. Whether it gets quicker or slower it seems to just eat up more of our money.
Pandy said :
With far more capital works than would be required anywhere in Canberra
Pandy said :
The Perth to Mandurah railway line cost 1.66 billion by the time it was finished 5 years ago, (approx 1.86 billion today adjusting for inflation). That is a 70 kilometre railway line, including 10 new stations, 15 new bridges, new rolling stock, new railcar storage, electrical infrastructure… the list goes on.
How have we arrived at an estimate of nearly half that cost, for well under a quarter of the distance… for light rail.
damien haas said :
You present yourself as Chair of the peak light rail lobby group in the ACT. I have never heard of your group and your reply to my first question was so juvenile and didn’t answer my questions properly. I thought I would look at your website. The website was so vague. I was interested and asked legitimate questions – Who is this peak light rail lobby group that you represent? Who are its members who you claim come from Community Councils, all political parties, environmental groups and the general public and, Does your organisation have any clout?
And yes, everyone has the right to question government policy. I support better transport options in Canberra particularly along Northbourne Avenue, one of the most congested roads in Canberra. As a Canberran I am also interested in Canberra’s development. The Canberra Liberals offer no alternative and the Greens just think money grows on trees. Everyone complains that the government doesn’t consult. Well they are consulting, asking for community feedback before they release the final report in a couple of months time. I don’t know of any other ACT local government that has consulted they way this government has. Your post just sounded like one big whinge.
Why not do the obvious!!
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9461/magicbusway.png
400 Times cheaper. Likely save everyone 5 minutes.
First step is to remove the bike lakes!
What they don’t tell you is that with the busway / trainway down the middle the time to actually get down northbourne for everyone else will increase!
Also for 800 Million.. isnt it cheaper just to put in a subway?
Mind you for a billion you could probably just cut into the middle of Northbourne put in 2 tracks and roof over the top. No effect on traffic once its done and future proof!
Those strips were always intended for trams but of course Canberra was never considered metropolitan or important enough to fund, plan and build properly for the future. Now we have self-government we have buckleys of ever getting proper infrastructure in this city – regardless of which brand of local politics gets in. The press conference smells of selling the cheap and nasty solution.
Is does sound rather expensive given the whole network cost for light rail a couple of years back was $2 Billion. So a figure at $500 million would be around the mark for Gungahlin to Civic. Interestingly the Gold coast light rail stage 1 of 13km will cost over $1 Billion dollars! and many are not so supportive of it either. http://www.stoplightrail.com/
There’s nothing wrong with Bus Rapid transit DH, in the end it will come down to cost benefit analysis for all modes of Transport.
My favourite part about the artist impression is how there’s a single car waiting at the intersection on Northbourne. The artist either isn’t very good at drawing lines of cars, or his brief was to make the bus system look super effective.
Canberra would needed depots, workshops, and lots of intersections works. Not so much in Adelaide.
Oh and transformers.
Of course a green field project like this would cost more than a mere extension.
ka1042 said :
Sgt.Bungers said :
8 years ago they managed to build the 1400km Alice Springs to Darwin railway for a mere $1.2bn.
It seems like railways are priced in the same way as hot chips from the takeaway shop.
ka1042 said :
Settle down man, it’s cool that you are an ALP staffer. No-one is that peturbed.
ka1042 said :
Damien is a well established as the ACT light rail guru. His website has been around for a while and he always puts in his two bob on light rail discussions here at the Riot Act. I can’t vouch for how serious or influential his organisation is, but Damien himself is legit.
damien haas said :
The concept report (linked below) says that vehicles and depots would cost 20% which is $140 to $174 million.
To put things in perspective: for that price you could buy 87 trams of 100 passenger capacity. At 20m in length, placed end to end, these trams would extend for 1.7km. That is over a tenth of the way to gunners. For the entire cost of the project, you could make a continuous line of trams stretching almost 9km – three quarters of the way to the G. (The report says that a 100 person tram costs $2m).
They say they’re going to run services every 10 minutes. The trip takes about 30 minutes, so they only need about 8-10 trams maximum, not EIGHTY SEVEN.
So that leaves about $150m to build a depot – a shed for 10 trams.
The concept report: http://transport.act.gov.au/studies_projects/City%20to%20Gungahlin%20Concept%20report.pdf
Martlark said :
The plan isn’t to paint a lane each way, it is to dig up the median strip down the centre of Northbourne and build more lanes there to make up for the bus lane on the outside. And they’re also building dedicated bike lanes on both sides which bumps the cost up.
The report is very heavy on repositioning roads for some reason that completely eludes me. Most of the way to Gungahlin there is either a wide median strip, or a wide nature strip on the side of the road that would be perfect for trams.
Money money money
The Govt will make the money back in the first few months of operations – another breakdown lane for running RBT’s (and RTA inspections) would be a cash earning exercise. The political party gifts from all the unions on this one would be a bonus, plus speed cameras.
2am road worker’s to keep the lower-income residents awake between stabbings, and bashing’s should work well.
The good news – seems that cancer causing gas from motorways is fine, as fact add more!
Only down side is cars would need to be taken off the road after RBT operations, resulting in more law changes that generate incomes for those people we all love (the lawyers). This kind law change thing only needs to be done in the city because having fire dangers from empty cars on the side of a bush capital road way isn’t an act of arson should it – if by magic – catch fire, or have its glass windows just pop out into the grass (better blame a smoker to be safe).
ka1042 said :
The report, on a skim thru reading, does not say how many trams are needed but please correct me if I am wrong. Also correct me where in the report it says the preferred 220 passenger trams cost? From everything I have been able to find on the web on equivalent 220 passenger trams recently bought in Australia, they used to cost at least $5 million a piece, with inflation I bet they now cost more.
Interesting to note that the the preferred option for either BRT or LRT is Kerbside.
If it were note for the bicycle fraternity, the width of the median strip would not be reduced.
And yes the report does say:
BRT is a cost-effective option, whilst LRT generates the best overall outcome for Canberra.
ka1042 said :
So, this was your first time on RA then….? DH is a regular contributor here. Plus according to his posts, i’m guessing he’s a member of the Belconnen community council.
Hey… maybe he’s on the BCC to push his covert train agenda there too??? I love a good conspiracy theory!! Or maybe I could just take my tin foil hat off and calm down a bit….. Hahahaha!
Pandy said :
You can work out the number of trams needed from other information they give – the trip time (about 30 minutes) and the frequency of trams (every 10 minutes). They could scrape by with six trams. Eight trams would be reliable. And ten trams would mean they have backups in case of breakdowns.
I didn’t see where it said the preference was for 200 person trams. Even then ten 200 person trams would only cost $30 million more than ten 100 person trams.
That doesn’t explain why this project is hundreds of millions of dollars more expensive than previous government proposals.
Bramina said :
The govco are just predicting a cost blowout up front. That way they don’t need to explain it later.