Now if only we could recover some facts from the ’80s about the number of dual-income families, the number of kids riding bikes to school instead of being driven by this week’s parent in the urban combat vehicle, and perhaps even a few copies of bus routes, ticket prices compared to family incomes, the proportion of houses with air conditioning, and the level of reporting of child sex offences in the news.

That would be some interesting reading.

I think that it’s a long bow to blame people promoting light rail for all the ills and failings of the ACT Government’s Bus – sorry: Transport Plan.

The majority of Mees’ comments and indeed the CT article are about the transport plan itself.

With regard to the light rail comment, what Mees also overlooks is that a big chunk of the Canberra population has lost trust in ACTION management and in the ACT Government to not rip the rug out from under bus services.

A dedicated traffic-free solution like light rail is widely viewed as ‘locked in’ and therefore difficult for any government to screw up. Therefore, worthy of our trust and support.

There is also the realisation of Canberra locals that the trees down Northbourne Ave – our highest priority public transport route – are largely untouchable (as a whole – not individually) and it would be far easier to get two light rail tracks down the middle with reduced tree removal than would be required to fit two bus lanes.

and I thought it was the cyclists fault

Gungahlin Al said :

There is also the realisation of Canberra locals that the trees down Northbourne Ave – our highest priority public transport route – are largely untouchable (as a whole – not individually) and it would be far easier to get two light rail tracks down the middle with reduced tree removal than would be required to fit two bus lanes.

Personally, I’d put the tram line on an overhead viaduct. No need to tear down trees, no need for ground-level crossings where trams and cars can have arguments (which only the tram can win), no temptation for kids to go sticking pebbles on the tracks.

This would open up new opportunities for buildings along Northbourne avenue to have two “ground level” entrances: one on ground level, one on tram level. Twice as many coffee shops (the giggling you hear in the background is from the folks who have recently visited Amsterdam), and more opportunities to make money renting out floor space to tram related services such as bike lockers.

Still, the distraction of light rail means we aren’t paying as much attention as we should to the busses and why they aren’t as effective today as they were back in the good old days (i.e.: the ’70s and ’80s).

Much better to wait to read the actual submission, than to comment about it through the media filter. Of the CT.

Interestingly the Government put forward a proposal for a grandiose dedicated bus expressway from Civic to Belconnen a couple of years back. From memory the cost was estimated at over $100 million. Common sense said that the better solution was a dedicated bus lane city-bound, which would be far more cost-effective and eradicate the majority of conjestion issues for buses using Barry Drive. Surprisingly this was the option chosen, was implemented promptly and it has worked very well.

My point? Convert the outer lanes of Northbourne Avenue to dedicated bus lanes – heck even just the city bound lane during peak hours would make a huge improvement. IMO Gunghalin does not “need’ light rail, it simply needs increased bus access to the city and more efficient routes. Some will argue that light rail is superior for many reasons, but dedicated bus lanes have the potential to provide a similar result to the Belconnen/Civic bus lane, and could be implemented almost immediately.

I’m not suggesting rail is the wrong solution, but it is a long-term project that will never be green-lighted until there is sufficient financial and political impetus. (i.e: complete gridlock for hours a day)

Keijidosha said :

Interestingly the Government put forward a proposal for a grandiose dedicated bus expressway from Civic to Belconnen a couple of years back. From memory the cost was estimated at over $100 million. Common sense said that the better solution was a dedicated bus lane city-bound, which would be far more cost-effective and eradicate the majority of conjestion issues for buses using Barry Drive. Surprisingly this was the option chosen, was implemented promptly and it has worked very well.

My point? Convert the outer lanes of Northbourne Avenue to dedicated bus lanes – heck even just the city bound lane during peak hours would make a huge improvement. IMO Gunghalin does not “need’ light rail, it simply needs increased bus access to the city and more efficient routes. Some will argue that light rail is superior for many reasons, but dedicated bus lanes have the potential to provide a similar result to the Belconnen/Civic bus lane, and could be implemented almost immediately.

I’m not suggesting rail is the wrong solution, but it is a long-term project that will never be green-lighted until there is sufficient financial and political impetus. (i.e: complete gridlock for hours a day)

That would great the buses could sit in the queue of cars that would form back to the G, seriously closing a lane of N’thbourne to cars is just insane.

All the worlds succesful public transport systems have one thing in common, they go underground and out of the traffic.

Anyone know where or when I can get a copy of this paper? I’d really like to read through it.

I’d suggest it is the government’s complete lack of commitment to public transport, rather than attention given to light rail that is what has held Canberra back.

A comprehensive and frequent bus system integrated with light rail would no doubt be the best outcome for public transport, but that’s certainly not to say you can’t provide a good level of service without light rail.

arescarti42 said :

Anyone know where or when I can get a copy of this paper? I’d really like to read through it.

I’d suggest it is the government’s complete lack of commitment to public transport, rather than attention given to light rail that is what has held Canberra back.

A comprehensive and frequent bus system integrated with light rail would no doubt be the best outcome for public transport, but that’s certainly not to say you can’t provide a good level of service without light rail.

http://www.communityengagement.act.gov.au/engagements/tams/current/building_a_better_bus_service

I’d suggest it should be read in conjunction with:
http://www.communityengagement.act.gov.au/engagements/deccew/current/act_planning_strategy

Someone pointed to the Bogota Rapid Bus Transit system in a different thread, and it certainly seems to be a system that might suit Canberra. The light rail enthusiasts get platforms and sliding doors, and bus enthusiasts will still be able to look into the back seats of cars.

Grail said :

Personally, I’d put the tram line on an overhead viaduct.

Yes! A monorail will solve all our transport problems and be a great tourist attraction.

How did Dr Mees come to that conclusion?

Build the light rail and see how Canberra goes then. It certainly isn’t going to hold it back. It will definately add character and encourage more public transport use.

Normally I agree with Paul Mees, but I think his criticism of light rail advocates is misplaced. The bus system is beyond its capacity, and still cant satisfy its mandate. At other times it operates with very low patronage. There needs to be a modal change with lightrail as the backbone of a public transport system and buses feeding commuters into light rail nodes, park and rides etc.

Otherwise, he is right. Canberra is being locked into a car dependent future. The govts grand 2031 plan still has car use at over 70% – this in its high density city of the future. Think about that one folks.

The government has two problems with the ACTION system – a short term and a long term problem.

Short term it is struggling to satisfy peak demand – Gungahlin is a prime example with full buses not stopping and delaying commuters, coupled with a local service with such infrequent services that it is not reliable. We support the ACT Governments efforts to improve ACTION.

Long term, the problem is that even if the government reaches its aspirational 16% trips taken on public transport figure (a doubling of the present figure) this means that the ACTION fleet and driver workforce would need to be doubled. This is not a sensible solution, especially as the government are leading Canberra down a high density future along ‘transport corridors’. International and local experience has shown that this will not occur with a bus only rapid system, it needs to be light rail. Otherwise Canberra will experience all the disadvantages of a high density city, and none of the advantages.

This ALP Government has serious credibility issues with transport planning. I would refer you all to the 2004 Sustainable Transport Plan – it recognised the advantages of light rail and said buses could deliver them all. The government then slashed and burnt the bus fleet and service frequency and despite several good attempts (Rapid Expresses etc) the bad taste from that still lingers.

The only realistic solution is a light rail high speed backbone, with integrated more frequent local bus services. This leverages the advantages of both transport modes. ACT Light Rail has always advocated for this. Paul Mees may not be aware of that, he certainly has never spoken to me.

My other response is that if it wasnt for light rail advocates lobbying for better public transport, you would not be seeing any improvements or even discussion of improvements. Governments only react when pressure is applied. Do you think Gungahlin is now getting better ACTION service because the govt just felt like it ? No – the GCC have advocated strongly for those extra services.

Or perhaps we should just leave transport planning to visionaries like John Hargreaves again.

Lastly, light rail isnt an ‘obsession’ its simply the most logical and cost effective way to introduce mass transit public transport to Canberra (and hopefully Queanbeyan).

Postalgeek said :

Someone pointed to the Bogota Rapid Bus Transit system in a different thread, and it certainly seems to be a system that might suit Canberra. The light rail enthusiasts get platforms and sliding doors, and bus enthusiasts will still be able to look into the back seats of cars.

Guess what – the Blue Rapid has an average speed 15kph HIGHER than the Bogota system (40k vs 25k). We don’t need BRTs or light rail lines here – there’s not enough traffic and the roads are too good.

Not only are Canberra buses among the fastest in the world: the ticketing is world-class, we have google maps integration, our interchanges are super-well maintained and so many buses are new.

Compare this to Sydney, where most buses struggle to average over 10km/h, are not air-conditioned and get stuck in traffic all the time. We are very very lucky.

The only problem with Canberra buses is service frequency – 30mins is not OK; 15mins is the absolute minimum for a usable route

Grail said :

Now if only we could recover some facts from the ’80s about the number of dual-income families, the number of kids riding bikes to school instead of being driven by this week’s parent in the urban combat vehicle, and perhaps even a few copies of bus routes, ticket prices compared to family incomes, the proportion of houses with air conditioning, and the level of reporting of child sex offences in the news.

That would be some interesting reading.

Exacty, “look Canberra had a good bus system in the 80′s” doesn’t prove anything because the devil lies in the details.

The benefits of density for public transport and the benefits of light rail are easy to prove.

With density, it is straightforward that more residences per meter of the route means shorter transport times and greater convenience, plus higher utilisation rates, which means routes can operate at higher frequency and be even more convenient.

As for light rail, a bus can carry something like 50 passengers and has one/two doors whereas a tram can carry 300 passengers with 12 doors. A tram can carry six times the number of people per trip and load/unload them much faster.

Light rail, the great whale a certain clique in Canberra shall hobble on their peg leg towards no matter the cost or practicality.

I want to point out that the Sydney Light Rail system is close to $5 per return ticket. That compared to around $2-2.50 for ACTION buses. Given the level of infrastructure investment needed to build a larger network with a smaller population, I don’t see Canberra’s rail being cheaper.

So honest question for all rioters… who’s going to pay that?

Light rail is the way to go. It will also do wonders for nightlife and buisnesses here in Canberra.

If the light rail is automated perhaps it can run all through Fri and Sat night. 15 minutes walk to the light rail line from suburbia – hop on and end up in Civic or Manuka.. Pump heaps of money into the local economy (late night shopping or getting drunk) and jump onto the rail at 3am back home. Canberra needs this!

I wonder if the US Bus conspiracy has anything to do with this “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal”. The ACT government seems so biased towards dirty busses.

You know, I have always been against light rail as an expensive folly, however, the inability of this government to organise or run a good public transport system has slowly turned me around.

Let’s have light rail, at least they can’t stuff it up once its in.

aussieboy said :

Guess what – the Blue Rapid has an average speed 15kph HIGHER than the Bogota system (40k vs 25k). We don’t need BRTs or light rail lines here – there’s not enough traffic and the roads are too good.

There’s not enough traffic? Will there be enough traffic in 20 years? Is this when we should build a BRT, when residents in developing areas such as Gungahlin have already fallen into a love affair with their cars, and will be near impossible to pry them of it? And should we build a BRT when more traffic exists on our roads, and inconvenience as as many people as possible? *sigh*

aussieboy said :

Not only are Canberra buses among the fastest in the world: the ticketing is world-class, we have google maps integration, our interchanges are super-well maintained and so many buses are new.

Compare this to Sydney, where most buses struggle to average over 10km/h, are not air-conditioned and get stuck in traffic all the time. We are very very lucky.

They are the fastest due to the low density nature of Canberra. Nowhere else springs to mind where buses operate at 85km/h between major town centres. And don’t get me started on the ticketing system…..

The Google Maps intergration is pitiful at best, whereas Perth and Adelaide bus operations seem to have mastered it, displaying each route, and bus stop (including next departing bus service at each stop) as a layer on Google Maps. I’m hoping for that to be rolled out for ACTION services too.

Sydney Buses, Sydney’s largest bus company has 74.9% of it’s fleet air-conditioned, as opposed to ACTIONs 66% of the fleet air-conditioned.

We don’t even have to look as far as Bogota to see an effective busway system. Brisbane has proven that Busways, if implemented correctly, can work. Well built Busway stations (grade seperated, lifts, and a large park and ride facility), seperated by areas of high speed running completely grade ssperated from all roads can be very effective in transporting large numbers of people to a particular destination. This works well in Brisbane with it’s centrally located CBD, but may be more of a challenge here in the ACT with it’s various, and very dispersed employment centres.

RedDogInCan said :

Yes! A monorail will solve all our transport problems and be a great tourist attraction.

Is there a chance the track could bend?

creative_canberran said :

I want to point out that the Sydney Light Rail system is close to $5 per return ticket. That compared to around $2-2.50 for ACTION buses. Given the level of infrastructure investment needed to build a larger network with a smaller population, I don’t see Canberra’s rail being cheaper.

To be fair the Sydney Light Rail system is run by Metro Transport Sydney, which is a private enterprise operating for a profit. ACTION is part of the ACT government and is run as a service to the community, which is why tickets are so cheap. If ACTION were run privately for profit then tickets would probably be $8+ like Deane’s charges, and most of the low patronage suburban routes probably wouldn’t run at all.

Whether it is building new roads or funding buses/light rail, the government still has to fund transport.

RedDogInCan said :

Grail said :

Personally, I’d put the tram line on an overhead viaduct.

Yes! A monorail will solve all our transport problems and be a great tourist attraction.

Monorail!
http://youtu.be/jF_yLodI1CQ

Keijidosha said :

My point? Convert the outer lanes of Northbourne Avenue to dedicated bus lanes -

Been saying that for years!!!!

And wasn’t Dr Paul Mees a guest spokeperson for ACTLight Rail?

http://www.actlightrail.info/p/articles.html

Wonder what happened to sour the relationship?

Ryan said :

RedDogInCan said :

Yes! A monorail will solve all our transport problems and be a great tourist attraction.

Is there a chance the track could bend?

Not on your life, my Internet friend.

There’s nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail! …

I swear it’s Canberra’s only choice. It could even be solar powered.

Pandy said :

Keijidosha said :

My point? Convert the outer lanes of Northbourne Avenue to dedicated bus lanes -

Been saying that for years!!!!

And wasn’t Dr Paul Mees a guest spokeperson for ACTLight Rail?

http://www.actlightrail.info/p/articles.html

Wonder what happened to sour the relationship?

and you are still wrong…….closing a lane odf northbourne would be traffic chaos and achieve nothing while all the cross traffic lights still operate

Even the “higher density will get more people on buses and solve the traffic problems” people are wrong. Exhibit a the traffic chaos that currently occurs in Dickson, guess what, all those new residents bought cars.

A couple of problems regarding light rail is the cost (many hundreds of millions of $ to build, then there is the ongoing costs such as maintenance and wages of drivers/other staff) and the time required to build it (not a ten minute job).

There is also the (lack of) flexibility of light rail. Buses (one “s”, people…) drive on roads that are used also by cars, motorbikes, cyclists etc.whereas a rail line can only be used by a train.

A couple of problems regarding light rail is the cost (many hundreds of millions of $ to build,

This is the mob that has a spare $430 million for some sort of galactic HQ in the centre of civic.

I get a laugh out of the doomsday theorists claiming that the chaos will reign supreme if a lane of Northbourne was dedicated to buses. Consider that all other arterial roads into Civic (with the exception of a 3km stretch of Commonwealth Ave) are dual lane and the world hasn’t ended.

The conundrum for Gunghalin residents who complain about traffic congestion is that they won’t give up their car because the buses are too slow, yet they’ll fight to protect a lane of Northbourne that could be used to increase the speed of the buses.

Harking back to the ’70′s and ’80′s to prove that buses worked in Canberra is akin to flat earth thinking.

The fact is, people want fast reliable transport. Buses stuck in traffic aren’t efficient nor are buses that only running every 30 or 60 mins. Buses that have suburban runs that double your commute time compared to the time it takes to drive are never going to be an option in this day and age. Who cares if people used buses 30 years ago? People thought horse and cart was pretty effective 100 years ago – perhaps we should go back to using that mode of transport?

Nothing is going to help if we continue to clog up the roads with cars and buses. Its simple really – get commuters off the roads and into efficient single corridor transport networks. If you count all those starting to live in the satellite areas around Canberra there will be 1 million people soon enough. Fast, reliable rail transport is a minimum requirement to move people safely and efficiently in and out of Canberra. Why aren’t satellite towns around Canberra being included in this planning? Yass is one of the fastest growing areas in Australia and they’re still bickering over the Murrumbateman bypass. It’s well and truely time to start looking for genuine alternatives!

creative_canberran said :

Light rail, the great whale a certain clique in Canberra shall hobble on their peg leg towards no matter the cost or practicality.

I want to point out that the Sydney Light Rail system is close to $5 per return ticket. That compared to around $2-2.50 for ACTION buses. Given the level of infrastructure investment needed to build a larger network with a smaller population, I don’t see Canberra’s rail being cheaper.

So honest question for all rioters… who’s going to pay that?

Actually i’d pay $5 a day if it meant getting to work in 30 minutes and not paying for car parking.
The issue for me with buses is not frequency, butn travel times themselves. bus lanes make marginal improvement on time, but the busesn still ahve to stop at all the lights and all the bus stops.

Any lightrail/dedicated busway system between the towncentres should skip all that and make transport between the town centres a much faster proposition.