31 October 2008

One isolated incident and the camera rent seekers come out.

| johnboy
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Little surprises me when it comes to the ability of certain RiotACT commenters to take a discussion self-indulgently off the rails.

But I was intrigued yesterday when the burned out buses on Akuna Street degenerated into the great global debate on public surveilance camera networks.

(Oddly London is cited as the great example of a brilliant network of public cameras and yet the city is far less safe than it was before the network was built).

So imagine my surprise to see the cry taken up by police on the ABC that if only we had more cameras (never mind getting the ones they have to work reliably) they could have caught the crims (but only after the buses went up at which point they’d be bailed before receiving a suspended sentence no doubt).

    “Detective Superintendent Michael Chew says extra cameras could have helped.

    “If there had have been cameras here hopefully it would have picked up the alleged offenders,” he said.”

In the Canberra Times Simon Corbell is managing to simultaneously claim that Civic is safe and yet he’s going to roll out a wider network of ineffectual cameras.

Presumably to, like London, make the city less than the safety nirvana we currently enjoy?

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i thought we had plenty of cameras in civic…its just that they werent switched on….
😉

johnboy said :

Also remember they were a reaction to an IRA bombing campaign, not street crime.

Correct JB, and they were even then camera’s were only part of the so called ‘ring of steel’. Try driving a van any where near Canary Wharf these days. Security stops you every time and gives both you and the car the electronic bomb sniffer treatment.

Anyone watch the bill last night. They seem to identify most of the crim’s with CCTV from street cam, pub cam and shop cam. The quality of the pictures don’t even need CSI photo shop.

ChrisinTurner said :

I am waiting to see the evidence proving that London is less safe than before the cameras.

Well how about the dramatic increase in Knife related crime over the last couple of years in London.

God, filtering through all this when I just some genuine public opinion on the topic… I didn’t click this link for a batman skit.

ChrisinTurner5:53 pm 01 Nov 08

I am waiting to see the evidence proving that London is less safe than before the cameras.

hence why CSI is classified as “science fiction” 😉

Reality check: CSI is not the real world. There is no machine that goes bing.

That and labs usually have better lighting then the ones in that show.

Jim Jones said :

p1 said :

I want a copy of the software that turns a bunch of pixels from a zoomed in low-res image into a crystal clear pic of the killer…

Photoshop.

Photoshop:CSI Edition. It uses entangled matter & antimatter to draw pixels from other dimensions, and sometimes from other TV shows. For some reason, The Bill still uses the old Photoshop:RealWorld Edition, which means blurry cctv footage only tells them that something blurry happened.

Reality check: CSI is not the real world. There is no machine that goes bing.

imhotep said :

Even non-low-lifes (like me!) refrain from certain activities (in places like lifts) if I see a camera.

That’s just it, non-low-lifes do feel self conscious about the cameras and will refrain from doing even some normal things.

Low lifes on the other hand don’t give a rats.

I’m saying that very few things are that useful in isolation.

I doubt the cameras made things worse, although I’ve seen it argued they’ve added to alienation, I am saying they haven’t added much to safety.

Also remember they were a reaction to an IRA bombing campaign, not street crime.

“…roll out a wider network of ineffectual cameras….Presumably to, like London, make the city less than the safety nirvana we currently enjoy?”

Are you (Johnboy) saying that extra cameras in London made the city LESS safe?

It would be hard to quantify, but common sense tells you that the average low-life may hesitate to do what low-lifes do if he can see a camera looking at him.

Even non-low-lifes (like me!) refrain from certain activities (in places like lifts) if I see a camera.

I cannot see how extra cameras could make a situation worse.

GottaLoveCanberra4:54 pm 31 Oct 08

Yay for knee jerk reactions to appease the masses.

p1 said :

I want a copy of the software that turns a bunch of pixels from a zoomed in low-res image into a crystal clear pic of the killer…

Photoshop.

I think some of us having been watching a bit too much CSI.

I want a copy of the software that turns a bunch of pixels from a zoomed in low-res image into a crystal clear pic of the killer…

This week on CSI Charnwood …

Agent Dazza: “%^&ing hell, not another @#9(ing stabbing. Better get this &$(#ing bloodstained Woodie can down to Krystal and Shano at the lab.”

I think some of us having been watching a bit too much CSI.

Has anyone here ever had the footage from a surveillance camera actually lead to an arrest and/or conviction?

astrojax said :

if batman is so smart, why does he wear his undies on the outside?

*chuckle*

[Shame pulls a gun out of his hat and points it at Batman, but Batman kicks it out of his hand.]
Shame: (frightened) No, Batman! I’m sorry! I’d never…never think to…
Batman: (playfully) Boo!
Shame: (hysterical, grabs Batman by the leg) No, Batman! No!
Batman: (annoyed, pushes Shame away) Oh, for shame, Shame, Shame, Shame! You’re no outlaw, you’re a sham, Shame! Don’t you ever grab my tights or pull on my leg again!

if batman is so smart, why does he wear his undies on the outside?

patrols of emus would be more effective and more australian. that, or highly trained yowies.

I think it’s time for random attack guinea pigs…

And some SWAT Penguins for when things turn bad.

I’m still waiting to hear that this is all a beat up and it was actually one of the tour group sneaking a durrie in the bus that caused the conflagration.

When this comes out, do we take all the presents back and drum them out of town?

peterh: Nah, I think this is more a job for Omni Consumer Products.

He’s still caretaker Police Minister until a new CM is elected and picks a new cabinet, isn’t he? Anyway, all he was doing was recounting decisions that had already been made, not announcing anything new.

(Though I suspect the direct answer to “Why is Simon Corbell commenting on this” is “because the CT asked him for comment”).

p1 said :

I’m thinking combine a few of these plans into one. If we get the pan-able zoom-able cameras, mounted on fully automatic guns, monitored real-time by a genocidal batman, who can identify criminal actions and unilaterally decide to operate the remote guns, then the video can be shown on Granny’s funniest crime videos show.

Neat huh? And eliminates the need for courts altogether. As Jim Jones said, After all, if you’re not doing anything wrong, you couldn’t possibly have anything to fear.

bring in skynet. then we will see law abiding citizenry. now what was the name of the company that designed it?

ah, yes. Cyberdyne. have a look at: http://www.cyberdyne.jp/English/ scary new robot suit.

Why is Simon Corbell commenting on this. He’s not the minister for anything at the moment.

Jim. The snot goes in the evidence bag for court. The cause of the crime is my body that makes it. The crime is the picking. You should know that.

I have more faith in the guinea pigs than the judiciary actually!

*chortle snort*

And to me … what you did … you are a hero.

Just as Mr Incredible couldn’t help being Mr Incredible, I think you will find it hard to squash down who you really are forever PBO.

I think it is an ideal time, with government more accountable now, to make our views heard as a community on what we really want from our justice system. It’s amazing how many times we can type our views into a box on a web forum, yet never get around to composing the same views in the editor of our email client when we could be expressing them to our elected officials.

Perhaps the community councils could look at making a lobby page available on the website where people can go to express these sorts of concerns instead of feeling so isolated and powerless.

So the root cause of crime is … snot?

You can spend as much money as you like on cameras and GPS chips as you like, but you are ignoring the underlying causes of the problems.

You can go to the expense of putting a CCTV in every toilet in Canberra. Sure you will catch me picking my nose. You can punish and humiliate me for it, but I’m still going to have snot. I’m still going to get an intense satisfaction from fishing it out with my finger. I’ll just have to do it in the laundry.

You’re a genius, p1!

Jim Jones said :

Actually, now that I’ve had a chance to think about it, cameras and guns are probably still not enough, and while genocide is a great idea, Dexi (as Karadzic says: “Nothing says clean like ethnically-clean!”) what we REALLY need is Batman.

Tried the superhero bit, got arrested and charged with public indecency, assault and fleeing the scene of a crime. The two “crimminals” “assisted police” with “enquiries” then had the gall to say that i had inflicted “psychological injuries” on them. At the hearing i was dealt another blow with Terrance Higgins on the bench and he said that although The two were doing wrong, one had to take into account their upbringing (Charnwood, no xmas, 10 “dads, brother called brayden or braydon and a sister called taneesha, drug habit, dog was run over or ran away because of it’s shit upbringing, vegimite is no longer an australian brand, etc etc etc) where as my vigilanteism is a dispicable crime and i was taking work away from police who were underutilised. And further the notion the “community” should decide punishment for crimminals was an affront to the court.

I’m thinking combine a few of these plans into one. If we get the pan-able zoom-able cameras, mounted on fully automatic guns, monitored real-time by a genocidal batman, who can identify criminal actions and unilaterally decide to operate the remote guns, then the video can be shown on Granny’s funniest crime videos show.

Neat huh? And eliminates the need for courts altogether. As Jim Jones said, After all, if you’re not doing anything wrong, you couldn’t possibly have anything to fear.

p1 said :

Not to mention the crims always keep coming back in the sequels.

That is because of the light non-custodial sentencing they get in the ACT.

That is because we don’t gun them and their families down. No sequel.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy11:05 am 31 Oct 08

Cameras might capture some images, but they do nothing to physically interfere with criminal actions. More examples of visible human policing please.

Better still, run a competition with lots of prize money for Australia’s funniest crime videos ….

*tee hee*

Not to mention the crims always keep coming back in the sequels.

That is because of the light non-custodial sentencing they get in the ACT.

Primal said :

Surely we should just wait for one of the idiot friends of the idiot perps to post some shaky phone camera footage on YouTube? It’s cheaper and it’s more likely to work properly!

That would support the use of existing technology intelligently. Where’s the huge costs and media releases in that.

Surely we should just wait for one of the idiot friends of the idiot perps to post some shaky phone camera footage on YouTube? It’s cheaper and it’s more likely to work properly!

Super heroes make too much mess. Haven’t you seen that Documentary The Incredibles or the mess Gothem City ends up in. They would only end up costing us tax payers more money. Not to mention the crims always keep coming back in the sequels. Batman is over rated as a crime fighter.

Actually, now that I’ve had a chance to think about it, cameras and guns are probably still not enough, and while genocide is a great idea, Dexi (as Karadzic says: “Nothing says clean like ethnically-clean!”) what we REALLY need is Batman.

amarooresident10:23 am 31 Oct 08

To be fair to Superintendent Chew, he was responding ato a question from a journo rather than advocating for cameras unprompted. But why would you put cameras where the incident occurred anyway? Other than the holy grail there is nothing there.

p1 said :

Pppfffttt! My fully automatic will make me much safer then your semi…

Safer in a mofo pool of blood beeyatch.

Guns are not enough Jim. To be effective we have to embrace the tried and tested policy of genocide. Its in the use of guns, in a focused way, to remove target groups, that solves political problems. Cameras help to identify, but until the political will is there to, track them down and remove them their family and any accomplices permanently, then the crime will continue unabated.

Gps chip’s would speed the whole track and eliminate process. If we have to invest so heavily in the technology, we will need a permanent solution, to not deter but stop crime and give us a return on our investment.

Semi-automatics would make everyone especially safe.

Pppfffttt! My fully automatic will make me much safer then your semi…

Call me a criminal genius, but I would torch the bus while wearing something to obscure my face, you know, like good old fashioned bank robbers did…

Passive cameras are an after-the-fact deterrant, for people who dislike watching their own actions used against them as evidence.

Active cameras, as in where the cameras are monitored by a human who can only interfere in the situation with a voice announcement, are really labour intensive.
(One person can only watch and interpret so many screens at once, and can only react to one incident at a time).

Both of these setups need cameras of sufficient definition to be able to identify or distinguish offenders and offenses as they take place, and either a) have sufficient points of view to develop a good depth of field and depth of vision for your targetted area, or b) have high-quality zoom capabilities (and perceptive monitoring staff) to approach the quality of information you get from (a).

Neither of these are cheap options to install or maintain, active camera security is more labour intensive and easier to abuse, passive security systems cost far more to install & maintain to get similar coverage.

But none of it does much good if either the cameras don’t work, or the footage goes missing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clea_Rose

“Having us all microchipped with GPS would probably help our enforcement services too.”

After all, if you’re not doing anything wrong, you couldn’t possibly have anything to fear.

all cctv camera footage I’ve seen are dark and grainy, making identification more of a guestimate!

More visible policing = less crime

I don’t mind the cameras, I think they have their uses. Nothing discourages anti-social behaviour like a few real, live, breathing cops walking about though.

You have evidence to backup the “London isn’t as safe now” claim?

Having us all microchipped with GPS would probably help our enforcement services too.

What could go wrong?

Seriously, being caught on camera does not equate to automatic capture of the perpetrators.

Cameras are useless, everyone needs to be given guns, it’s clearly the only way to make us safe. Semi-automatics would make everyone especially safe.

This is another example of our out of touch police commanders and politicians. If we wanted extra cameras we’d have asked for them. What we do want is extra cops patrolling.

I know this is contrary to what the bean counters would suggest – but common sense dictates that the more visible the police presence the less crime is committed. And when it is committed the chance of being caught is much higher if police are available to deal with the isssue then and there – not in a few hours when they have worked through their job list.

Back to the beginning, if the relevant authorities had moved the cars that were illegally parked in the bus zone (in front of the YHA), forcing the buses to park next to Glebe Park, none of this would have happened.
Was that enough apostrophies ?

Don’t you mean burned out buses?
Your href target doesn’t even use the word camera anywhere in that thread.

Handy hint for the punters:
Police rarely say no to new gadgets or authority.

Didn’t cameras used to be called beat cops?

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