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What’s the Government hiding on Light Rail? Toot!

By 14 February 2013 31

The Liberals Alistair Coe is asking why the Government won’t answer basic questions about the Capital Metro light rail plan:

The information on light rail the Liberals sought answers to were:

– the timeline for the decision making and construction progress;
– the expected cost to taxpayers of pre-construction and construction;
– the predicted patronage, running costs and staffing once operational;
– the population within reasonable walking distance of a light rail stop;
– plans for park and ride facilities;
– the financial models for funding the project; and
– what feedback was received from Infrastructure Australia as a result of the 2008-federally funded proposal.

“I’m disappointed that the Government is not passing on information about how they intend to honour their huge financial commitment,” Mr Coe said today.

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31 Responses to What’s the Government hiding on Light Rail? Toot!
#1
Chop714:25 pm, 14 Feb 13

Not hard to answer cos there are no answers.
I hope Mr Coe doesn’t push too hard or he will force them into a spending spree.

#2
Roundhead894:56 pm, 14 Feb 13

Alistair didn’t ask the obvious question – “How much will residents south of the Lake have to pay in extra rates and charges just to keep Gungahlin and Belconnen voting Labor and The Greens back into power?”

#3
LSWCHP6:31 pm, 14 Feb 13

A bit of toot stored on a light rail somewhere? Sportsmen all over the country must be paying attention.

#4
dungfungus6:55 pm, 14 Feb 13

In BRW 14th November 2013 in an article titled “Engineers sharpen pencils over ACT light rail”, an executive from a reputable rail consultancy firm said (among other things) “the funding of the proposed ACT Light Rail by a PPP would be unlikely as revenue streams to fund the financing would not be strong enough”.
He added that “the PPP on the Gold Coast rapid transit was borderline and it’s probably carrying double the patronage a Canberra system could”.
In laymans’ terms that means the Canberra proposal, so far, is economically unviable.
The mindset that has evolved in the ACT Government is that the heavy, electrified and expensive infrastructure reliant Euro trams must be used however these are only viable in areas of high density population. Canberra has the exact opposite.
The way forward for Canberra is to examine the benefits and economies of ultra light rail (ULR).
Principal advantages are that ULR track costs are much less than conventional track costs and excavation and relocation of services is greatly eliminated, the railcars are cheaper to operate, more fuel flexible, more carbon neutral than buses and the railcars do not require overhead electric lines.
URL networks are totally compatible with shared zones and small railcars are able to cater more efficiently to smaller passenger patronage which would bring tourists and not just commuters into the economic equation.
The cost savings are so great that most of the ACT could be networked at the same time instead of only the current plan to connect the City with Gunghalin. This would immediately triple the potential patronage.
I could go on but I fear the common sense of a URL network proposal presented to the ACT government will only steel their determination to push on with the most expensive and inefficient deal they are offered.

#5
dungfungus3:41 pm, 04 May 13
#6
gooterz6:28 pm, 04 May 13

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

#7
bigred8:40 pm, 04 May 13

If I had the spare $$$ I would be buying every unit I could in the Pines complex to make the supernormal profits that will accrue when the Dickson station opens.

#8
Jethro10:12 pm, 04 May 13

dungfungus said :

In BRW 14th November 2013 in an article titled “Engineers sharpen pencils over ACT light rail”, an executive from a reputable rail consultancy firm said (among other things) “the funding of the proposed ACT Light Rail by a PPP would be unlikely as revenue streams to fund the financing would not be strong enough”.

What else does your crystal ball see?

(Actually, I agree with the sentiment of your post. Light rail in Canberra does not make financial sense.)

#9
HiddenDragon10:41 pm, 04 May 13

Roundhead89 said :

Alistair didn’t ask the obvious question – “How much will residents south of the Lake have to pay in extra rates and charges just to keep Gungahlin and Belconnen voting Labor and The Greens back into power?”

With interest rates being so low (and no chance that they will ever go back up again), and with government debt being something that we never ever really have to worry about, because it will all sort itself out over “the cycle”, I think they should get busy straight away on the southside rail, with branches to Weston and Queanbeyan. Think big, people!

The serious answer to your question is “quite a lot”, and that this will start looking very worrying when the ACT Budget is also dealing with the costs of Gonski, NDIS etc. etc. and with revenue which is sluggish, at best.

#10
gooterz11:02 pm, 04 May 13

bigred said :

If I had the spare $$$ I would be buying every unit I could in the Pines complex to make the supernormal profits that will accrue when the Dickson station opens.

Pay inflated price then risk have them not building it?

It’d be great if these great decisions where mapped out in 10, 20, 30 year plans.

#11
dungfungus12:05 am, 05 May 13

Jethro said :

dungfungus said :

In BRW 14th November 2013 in an article titled “Engineers sharpen pencils over ACT light rail”, an executive from a reputable rail consultancy firm said (among other things) “the funding of the proposed ACT Light Rail by a PPP would be unlikely as revenue streams to fund the financing would not be strong enough”.

What else does your crystal ball see?

(Actually, I agree with the sentiment of your post. Light rail in Canberra does not make financial sense.)

Appears you are referring to my mistake inputting the article date as 2013 when I meant 2012. The article is still factual.
My “crystal ball” sees the ” Euro Tram / Gold Coast Light Rail” model that Simon Corbell is in love with being totally inappropriate and unviable for the proposed City to Gungahlin tramway. Unfortunately that is what he has committed the Territory to and it will bankrupt us if he “calls it in”.
It will cost Labor the next election and The Green will be left sitting like a shag on a rock without his renewable energy powered trams.

#12
Innovation6:55 am, 05 May 13

gooterz said :

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

Agree that the Gungahlin to Dickson section will be very underutilised until more services and office space are built in Gungahlin. If there had been more buses out there to cope with peak demand, with priority and possibly even a dedicated lane along Northbourne, I doubt the Government would have felt forced to promise light rail at the last election. Even if they believe that they can break even, I expect the Government is relying on patronage between Dickson and Civic to achieve this.

As for park and rides between Belco, Woden and the City, why can’t these be built now to encourage use of existing intertown services? Why only one stop on each route? There should be park and ride facilities at most major intersections to encourage people to park their cars as soon as they are near a direct route to their destination. As soon as public transport is faster and cheaper than the cost of driving per km, and simpler, many will instinctively pull over, park and ride.

If there is only one stop on each route, why have one near Woden? Something closer to Cotter Road would pick up a lot of Weston Creek and Molonglo traffic and encourage other Southsiders to park outside the Parl Triangle.

#13
Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd8:05 am, 05 May 13

gooterz said :

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

Source to any of this?

#14
Pork Hunt11:37 am, 05 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

Source to any of this?

Dude, it’s his personal opinion. How the McPhuck is he going have a source?

#15
gooterz11:43 am, 05 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

Source to any of this?

Logic

#16
bundah1:39 pm, 05 May 13

So the construction costs are estimated to be are around $500m and a further $112m for indirect costs.If we factor in potential budget blowouts i’d reckon we could end up nudging the billion mark.

Ah a mere drop in the ocean,Labor has money to burn!

#17
Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd2:04 pm, 05 May 13

Pork Hunt said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

Source to any of this?

Dude, it’s his personal opinion. How the McPhuck is he going have a source?

His first paragraph is the only part that states his opinion, everything else is being passed off as fact.

#18
Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd2:06 pm, 05 May 13

gooterz said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

Source to any of this?

Logic

Can’t really have logic without facts to back it up.

#19
gooterz4:41 pm, 05 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Can’t really have logic without facts to back it up.

And what would it be? logic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference
Inference is the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.

Facts are that many jobs are in civic.
There are many jobs in Woden. and In the triangle that is in the middle of Woden and civic.
People are more likely to go to work in the morning and come home in the evening (This is because its cheaper to pay people during the day than the night, which comes from the fact that people like to sleep. )

This would indicate that a large amount of traffic goes into civic and Woden in morning hours and leaves at night time hours.
Which means the trains go into civic full with people, and leave empty.

Being empty wastes money.

However if it was pre-woden to post civic. There is people going both directions, due to the number of work places in woden and civic.

No doubt that if the government does waste this money on Gungahlin they’d start shifting out government departments to Gungahlin just so someone uses the empty trips back to Gungahlin of a morning and the empty trips back towards civic at night.

#20
fromthecapital7:14 pm, 05 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Still think that the first network should be civic to Woden.

Gungahlin only has one use.. and will only be useful for 4 hours a day!

As bugger all people work in Gungahlin, no one will be on the trains from civic to Gungahlin in the morning (Half wasted) and at night bugger all will goto civic on their way home.

In Woden and civic many people go in each direction of a morning and increasing to Tuggeranong and Belconnen is then much easier.

Idea network would be to have a park and ride between Civic and Belconnen (close to civic) and a park and ride between Woden and Tuggeranong (close to Woden). Build a network between them have a stop somewhere in the middle of Civic and Woden, and release that to developers for some $$$$ to fund the network.

Source to any of this?

Logic

Can’t really have logic without facts to back it up.

Would you refute some of those things that were inferred?

#21
Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd8:06 pm, 05 May 13

gooterz said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Can’t really have logic without facts to back it up.

And what would it be? logic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference
Inference is the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.

Facts are that many jobs are in civic.
There are many jobs in Woden. and In the triangle that is in the middle of Woden and civic.
People are more likely to go to work in the morning and come home in the evening (This is because its cheaper to pay people during the day than the night, which comes from the fact that people like to sleep. )

This would indicate that a large amount of traffic goes into civic and Woden in morning hours and leaves at night time hours.
Which means the trains go into civic full with people, and leave empty.

Being empty wastes money.

However if it was pre-woden to post civic. There is people going both directions, due to the number of work places in woden and civic.

No doubt that if the government does waste this money on Gungahlin they’d start shifting out government departments to Gungahlin just so someone uses the empty trips back to Gungahlin of a morning and the empty trips back towards civic at night.

For something to be know to be true, you need facts. So source, please?

#22
Pork Hunt9:11 pm, 05 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Can’t really have logic without facts to back it up.

And what would it be? logic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference
Inference is the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.

Facts are that many jobs are in civic.
There are many jobs in Woden. and In the triangle that is in the middle of Woden and civic.
People are more likely to go to work in the morning and come home in the evening (This is because its cheaper to pay people during the day than the night, which comes from the fact that people like to sleep. )

This would indicate that a large amount of traffic goes into civic and Woden in morning hours and leaves at night time hours.
Which means the trains go into civic full with people, and leave empty.

Being empty wastes money.

However if it was pre-woden to post civic. There is people going both directions, due to the number of work places in woden and civic.

No doubt that if the government does waste this money on Gungahlin they’d start shifting out government departments to Gungahlin just so someone uses the empty trips back to Gungahlin of a morning and the empty trips back towards civic at night.

For something to be know to be true, you need facts. So source, please?

Faaaaaarrrrkkkk! It’s not like they have a website for their opinions. Perhaps they have stated anecdotal evidence from someone in a pub on Friday night and were so smashed they can’t provide a source. What does it matter? It’s their opinion with or without scientific evidence
Do you have any pets? Does your dog grab a bone like you do and never let go?

#23
gooterz9:23 pm, 05 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

For something to be know to be true, you need facts. So source, please?

Can’t I be my own source(pretty please), I’ve been in Canberra well over 20 years.

When I first moved here there was NO Tuggeranong.

Perhaps you could pose an alternate hypothesis?

If I must I hence forth submit this as my sole evidence that I could be bothered to submit to a troll on the internet

http://www.action.act.gov.au/routes/xpresso/757_gungahlin

#24
Bosworth9:52 am, 06 May 13

dungfungus said :

The questions have been answered.
http://www.actlightrail.info/2013/05/alistair-coes-capital-metro-questions.html

Simon Corbell said: “Further work will be undertaken in the Capital Metro Light Rail Integration Study to identify other suitable locations within the corridor for park and ride, bike and rike, and kiss and ride facilities.”

wtf?

#25
Erg010:12 am, 06 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

For something to be know to be true, you need facts. So source, please?

Christ, this is a news and opinion website not a university thesis. If you disagree then go ahead and state your case.

#26
bundah10:29 am, 06 May 13

Pork Hunt said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gooterz said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Can’t really have logic without facts to back it up.

And what would it be? logic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference
Inference is the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.

Facts are that many jobs are in civic.
There are many jobs in Woden. and In the triangle that is in the middle of Woden and civic.
People are more likely to go to work in the morning and come home in the evening (This is because its cheaper to pay people during the day than the night, which comes from the fact that people like to sleep. )

This would indicate that a large amount of traffic goes into civic and Woden in morning hours and leaves at night time hours.
Which means the trains go into civic full with people, and leave empty.

Being empty wastes money.

However if it was pre-woden to post civic. There is people going both directions, due to the number of work places in woden and civic.

No doubt that if the government does waste this money on Gungahlin they’d start shifting out government departments to Gungahlin just so someone uses the empty trips back to Gungahlin of a morning and the empty trips back towards civic at night.

For something to be know to be true, you need facts. So source, please?

Faaaaaarrrrkkkk! It’s not like they have a website for their opinions. Perhaps they have stated anecdotal evidence from someone in a pub on Friday night and were so smashed they can’t provide a source. What does it matter? It’s their opinion with or without scientific evidence
Do you have any pets? Does your dog grab a bone like you do and never let go?

That’s the problem there just isn’t enough of that apple-source to go around porker :)

#27
HiddenDragon11:35 am, 06 May 13

The recent death of Margaret Thatcher reminded us of the famous moment when she used a well-worn rhetorical device in an interview with George Negus, demanding to know who, where and when had told him that they thought Thatcher was stubborn – just another version of the old “name one starving African” retort.

Threads such as this (if they don’t descend into a “suck it up, princess”/”first world problems” slanging match) show that the same rhetorical device is quite popular with those whose mission is to repel any criticisms or questioning of flawlessly objective, balanced, non-partisan, evidence-based decisions and policies (i.e. decisions and policies which conform with their interests and world view) of our local government.

#28
triffid1:42 pm, 06 May 13

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Source to any of this?

Look on the back of your Learner’s Permit, or the back of your Electoral Roll enrollment confirmation. Have you got either of those sorted yet? It might be there along with your entitlement to display the depth of your wisdom.

Why I am never here anymore . . . 13 year olds who ‘know’ everything (yet also know nothing).

#29
Bosworth1:47 pm, 06 May 13

Bosworth said :

dungfungus said :

The questions have been answered.
http://www.actlightrail.info/2013/05/alistair-coes-capital-metro-questions.html

Simon Corbell said: “Further work will be undertaken in the Capital Metro Light Rail Integration Study to identify other suitable locations within the corridor for park and ride, bike and rike, and kiss and ride facilities.”

wtf?

What is a “Kiss And Ride Facility”?

#30
davo1012:07 pm, 06 May 13

What’s the Government hiding on Light Rail?

Don’t know…maybe some maths might help.

So it’s going to cost $611 million to build (LOL), which is about $44 million a year when amortised over 30 years. It’s claimed that the inbound passenger numbers will be 7500 by 2031, so let’s be generous and say 20 000 pax on a work day and 250 work days a year, so that’s about 5 million passenger trips per year. That makes the capital cost about $9 per trip, we then have to add on the running cost to this but at the moment they are “unknown”, so your guess is as good as mine.

In comparison the cab fare from Gungahlin to Civic is $30 according to the Canberra Cab website, and assuming that it’s not unreasonable to stick 3 passengers in each cab, that’d be $10 a trip. I’d be guessing the ACT government could get a bulk discount if they were ordering 2500 cabs……

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