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Why not cover teeth?

By 2 May 2012 65

The Greens are asking some sensible questions as to why teeth are excluded from publicly funded healthcare, and trying to get support for a fix up here in Canberra.

“It doesn’t make much sense that teeth should be excluded from the rest of the human body when it comes to healthcare,” Greens Health spokesperson, Amanda Bresnan MLA, said.

“Low income earners are the hardest hit by the high cost of dental care, and this leads to major health problems.

“44% of respondents to the last ACT General Health Survey reported to have delayed using a dentist because they couldn’t afford it. This results in an unnecessary burden on the health system. 7-10% of GP visits are due untreated dental problems.

“If we do not start improving our preventative health measures, like regular dental check-ups, the cost of our health system will continue to skyrocket.

“Today the ACT is being presented with an opportunity to be the first jurisdiction to vote in favour of the Commonwealth Government funding Denticare.

“I’m calling on the other parties to listen to the community and support Denticare. The Assembly should make it clear to the Federal Government that this is a health priority for the people of Canberra,” Ms Bresnan said.

(Cue a bunch of vindictive arseholes huffing and puffing that they worked hard for their dental care and anyone who didn’t work as hard, or get as lucky, should live in pain and die young. Oh and let’s not forget the moral pygmies shouting “I’m allright jack, screw the rest of you”.)

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65 Responses to Why not cover teeth?
#31
Jim Jones4:23 pm, 02 May 12

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

Oooh. Looks like the jury’s decision is in:

Vindictive asshole with a strong dash of moral pygmy and a big side serve of internet tough-guy!

#32
Jim Jones4:31 pm, 02 May 12

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

I was a top SAS gunman and superfighting all-star for 20 straight years. I won all the medals offered by the Australian Armed Forces and then they made a special one just for me because of outstanding awesomeness and even once I beat a whole huge gang of terrorists just with a pocket-knife.

I’ve also got numerous degrees in the field of rocket-surgery and once I flew a megarocket to the outer rings of Saturn and collected samples that conclusively proved that aliens exist and are totally kick-ass but the government hushed it up because they knew that everyone would freak out and also on the way home I totally blew up an asteroid that was heading for Earth and would have killed everyone but they never told anyone because I didn’t want all the attention.

I’ve also done male modelling but had to quit because seeing pictures of me would have turned lots of hot girls boyfriends gay and I already get hassled enough by hot girls who want to kiss me and I’m too busy being on the cutting edge of ninja training and hanging out secretly with celebrities.

I don’t brush my teeth. I don’t need to. Having to brush teeth is a type of weakness to me. I laugh at people who have to brush their teeth – they need to be tougher and harder and then they stand a small chance of defeating their bodily weaknesses live I have.

#33
HenryBG4:42 pm, 02 May 12

Jim Jones said :

HenryBG said :

Thumper said :

I’ve helped on Greens’ stalls collecting petition signatures supporting this initiative and can say that almost everyone I spoke with signed up. It has almost universal support.

I’m at a loss to see how anyone could be against this proposal.

The public being overwhelmingly against junkies doesn’t stop junkies from doing what they do.

A bit like the pokies: the public is overwhelmingly against them, but the pollies for some reason refuse to do anything about them.

If the public is overwhelmingly against them, why won’t it just stop putting money into the evil things?

#34
HenryBG4:44 pm, 02 May 12

Alderney said :

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring …..

So at what age did you grow up and get a real job?

#35
Diggety5:27 pm, 02 May 12

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

#36
poetix5:50 pm, 02 May 12

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

Which is a tad ironic if they were raised on Coke (I have seen toddlers having this poured into baby bottles) and crappy food and already had dental problems as a child. Hardly their fault for having the wrong parents.

#37
HenryBG5:53 pm, 02 May 12

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

That’s not an evidence-based response.

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

There is no reason to separate dental care from other forms of healthcare.

#38
Jim Jones5:55 pm, 02 May 12

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

So we should axe medicare and let everyone fend for themselves then?

After all, poor people are only poor because of lack of personal responsibility. And rich people are only rich because of their awesome personal responsibility skills!!!

#39
bigfeet6:34 pm, 02 May 12

I read an article recently which quoted the American Dentists Association (or like) which noted that there seems, over the last 30 years, to be a general increase dental disease in more affluent countries.

One of the things that they put it down to was the use of bottled or filtered water, which is defeating the fluroidated water supply. Mind you, this was just one of the reasons given.

It got me thinking, I grew up in a non-flouridated city yet Mum made all us kids take a flouride supplement tablet every morning.

Neither me nor any of my siblings (all in our 40′s) have any fillings at all.

Back on topic – My opinion is that two general preventative visits (check ups and clean) should be free twice a year and everything else should be subsidised or fully covered (subject to a means test) under Medicare or a similar scheme.

#40
matt312216:52 pm, 02 May 12

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

I have good teeth and look after them well also but what the heck is ‘breading’? I also have a few years of muay thai training. You seen quite confident in your ability but being quite a few years younger that you, I dare say I have the advantage and it is you that will require the dental work my friend. Perhaps we might be evenly matched who knows – I certainly won’t back down from you.

I really wonder if you learnt your ‘kickboxing’ in a boxfit class though, because if you had some proficiency in it you would realize that violence doesn’t solve first world problems and you would naturally avoid fighting. It sounds like you love to throw your weight around.

So tough guy, sure I over-reacted with the dick**** thing but some people eat really healthy and look after their teeth – but still have a lot of dental problems. Some of those people may have low paying jobs and cannot afford dental work. It was really heartless of you to say what you did – that is why I reacted strongly. I will gladly pay tax to subsidize dental work for people who cannot afford it.

#41
LSWCHP7:09 pm, 02 May 12

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

I used to work with an ex private school rugby boy. Dunno if he was a martial artist, but he was certainly a complete tosser, just as you appear to be.

Threatening to kick peoples teeth in on an anonymous website is patently absurd and just makes you look dim, despite your splendid teeth. Around here, you can claim, as I do, to have super powers such as the ability to see peoples farts floating in the air. Unfortunately for you, your claims to martial or other capabilities are no more credible than mine. ;-)

Anyway, back to the OP…I reckon it’s a great idea. I have friends who are medical specialists, and they both tell me that the contribution of bad teeth to general ill health is huge. I’ve always wondered why dental care isn’t included under Medicare. Was it the influence of the dental lobby at the time that Medicare was introduced? Whatever the case, it makes as much sense as excluding any other random part of the body. Perhaps we should also exclude all the embarrassing bits like penises, anuses, colons etc…:-)

#42
Diggety7:18 pm, 02 May 12

HenryBG said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

That’s not an evidence-based response.

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

There is no reason to separate dental care from other forms of healthcare.

‘British Smile’ didn’t enter the urban dictionary for no reason, Henry:

. British Smile

any smile exhibiting bad teeth, characterized by poor orthodontia, caries, and other dental maladies stereotypically associated with the British, but actually observed in all peoples globally.

#43
Diggety7:20 pm, 02 May 12

Jim Jones said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

So we should axe medicare and let everyone fend for themselves then?

After all, poor people are only poor because of lack of personal responsibility. And rich people are only rich because of their awesome personal responsibility skills!!!

Reductio ad absurdum

#44
Tetranitrate7:28 pm, 02 May 12

HenryBG said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

That’s not an evidence-based response.

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

There is no reason to separate dental care from other forms of healthcare.

Absolutely – the Americans pay, as a proportion of GDP and in PPP adjusted $ about twice as much as the rest of the OECD (give or take, depending on which measure, which year – but it’s basically 2x) – they essentially pay twice, and have worse outcomes (eg: infant mortality) to boot.
(http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3746,en_2649_33929_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html)

Of course plenty of the reactionary morons they have over there are A-okay with that – they don’t really care that they’re being ripped off as long as there is someone worse off to them to sneer at.
You can see the same mentality with some of the posters here.

#45
toriness8:06 pm, 02 May 12

“moral pygmies” – love it. going to try and use that in a few sentences tomorrow!

#46
nazasaurus8:20 pm, 02 May 12

They need to up the number of dentistry placements at uni and/or increase numbers of overseas trained dentists to allow more competition and lowering of fees. I am sorry but how can 10-15 minutes of a dentist’s time for a non-complex check up and clean cost me $150. There could also be bulk billed dental hygienists who can do cleaning and instruct people on proper dental/gum hygiene avoiding unecessary visits to the dentist. Alternatively, why doesnt the government subsidise or lower hecs or provide scholarships to students who in return agree to work as a salaried dentist in a public health sector for x number of years. No dentist would be otherwise compelled to work in the public system when they have a licence to print money in private.

#47
260410:12 pm, 02 May 12

An annual checkup and clean costs about $200 at my local (rip-off) dentist. It beggars belief that 44% of Canberrans can’t set aside less than four bucks a week to look after their own teeth.

Also, the government socialising or subsidising anything is a sure-fire way to increase how much it costs. Anyone for a $700 set-top box?

#48
260410:50 pm, 02 May 12

HenryBG said :

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

#49
johnboy11:00 pm, 02 May 12

2604 said :

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

Erm, have you seen what the US taxpayer pays for their rooted system????

#50
Tetranitrate1:24 am, 03 May 12

2604 said :

HenryBG said :

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

You’re the one who needs your head examined.
See my prior post, of particular note:
http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3746,en_2649_33929_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html
As a percentage of GDP, total health spending in the US in 2009 was 17.4%
The ‘socialist’ UK with a comprehensive single payer system? 9.8%
When it’s put in PPP $ it’s actually more than double the OECD average.

#51
HenryBG6:29 am, 03 May 12

2604 said :

Also, the government socialising or subsidising anything is a sure-fire way to increase how much it costs.

Yeah, except for healthcare – as the american system *proves* with its doubled costs as compared with the socialised British system.

#52
HenryBG6:31 am, 03 May 12

2604 said :

HenryBG said :

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

er, but here in the real world, universal socialised medicine is half the price of the american approach.

You *do* realise that, don’t you?

The scary thing is that misinformed idiots like 2604 actually have the vote, and they use it to keep the Liberal Party in the running.

#53
Thumper8:35 am, 03 May 12

toriness said :

“moral pygmies” – love it. going to try and use that in a few sentences tomorrow!

I think Keating first used that term.

Or at least, something very similiar.

#54
chewy149:21 am, 03 May 12

Actually looking at that data presented by Tetranite I don’t think you can come to any conclusion about the different health systems.
The USA is obviously disfunctional but when you look at the % cost of GDP spent on healtcare compared to the % cost that comes from public expenditure, there is no link between them for the countries presented. It’s too simplistic a measure.
You would obviously also need to look at health outcomes to see the effectiveness of each country’s program.

#55
Jim Jones9:45 am, 03 May 12

Diggety said :

Jim Jones said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

So we should axe medicare and let everyone fend for themselves then?

After all, poor people are only poor because of lack of personal responsibility. And rich people are only rich because of their awesome personal responsibility skills!!!

Reductio ad absurdum

Lol. Given that the original ‘argument’ consisted of ‘herp derp personal responsibility’ I don’t think that swinging around logical fallacies is gonna help much.

#56
VYBerlinaV8_is_back10:35 am, 03 May 12

I though Reductio Ad Absurdum was something they taught at Hogwarts.

#57
Tetranitrate10:43 am, 03 May 12

chewy14 said :

Actually looking at that data presented by Tetranite I don’t think you can come to any conclusion about the different health systems.
The USA is obviously disfunctional but when you look at the % cost of GDP spent on healtcare compared to the % cost that comes from public expenditure, there is no link between them for the countries presented. It’s too simplistic a measure.
You would obviously also need to look at health outcomes to see the effectiveness of each country’s program.

Oh absolutely – the mere % of GDP spent on healthcare or $ per capita spent doesn’t tell you much at all and every country is different.

It’s just that the USA sticks out like a broken thumb, and countries like the UK with comprehensive single payer systems which according to people like 2604 should have massive cost blowouts because of their ‘inherent inefficiency’ do just fine.

#58
pink little birdie11:41 am, 03 May 12

Health systems like the UK also increase the purchasing power of the Health budget cos of the whole buying in bulk concept and adds to the negotating power of the purchasers.

#59
HenryBG5:06 pm, 03 May 12

pink little birdie said :

Health systems like the UK also increase the purchasing power of the Health budget cos of the whole buying in bulk concept and adds to the negotating power of the purchasers.

Yeah, that and the health budgets aren’t being siphoned off to pay for shareholder profits and advertising.

I’ve seen an attempted privatisation to yank health firms at work, and it was a massive, costly disaster with very poor health outcomes.

To those whose ideology encourages them to persist in scepticism like Chewy14′s, please keep your mind open a bit longer and try reading this:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2012/03/what_is_the_cause_of_excess_he.php

He summarises:

To summarize, the US spends more on healthcare compared to other industrialized nations because

– We deliver it inefficiently
– Without universality problems present when critical and in the ER
– Fee-for-service incentives in the form of excessive reimbursement for procedures and hospitals ramp up costs by encouraging doctors to overuse expensive tests and perform more procedures
– Direct-to-consumer advertising (we are one of two countries that allow advertisement of prescription drugs) and medicare part D encourage overuse of pharmaceuticals while tying providers hands when it comes to bargaining for lower drug prices
– Defensive medicine
– Poor management of end-of-life decisions and excessive and futile overuse of resources at the end of life
Absence of a universal electronic medical record (or record format) to prevent redundancy and waste.

#60
26049:41 pm, 03 May 12

HenryBG said :

The scary thing is that misinformed idiots like 2604 actually have the vote, and they use it to keep the Liberal Party in the running.

“Misinformed idiots” think that the overall cost of a health care system viewed in isolation of health outcomes and patient demographics is a reliable indicator of that health care system’s quality.

They also think that something which works in the UK will work everywhere, and that somehow socialised medicine can magically avoid all of the waste and unnecessary endemic in other government-provided services.

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