4 January 2009

Voucher shelf-life?

| Skidd Marx
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Last Christmas I received two “Premium” Dendy movie tickets which are apparently worth $35 a pop. Due to a combination of laziness and personal disdain for just about every movie which came out in 2008, I held off going, wanting to save these tickets for a truly worthy flick.

So I was a trifle annoyed when I finally went to use them only to be told that they had expired a few days earlier and were therefore about as useful as nipples on a grown man.

When I politely queried the validity of these expiry dates I was told by the pimple-faced Dendy nerd that they are in place because “tickets increase in price over time” and that “12 months is ample time to see a movie”. This may be so but I can’t help but feel a little ripped off that my mum forked over $70 in return for absolutely sweet F.A. In my opinion it is tantamount to theft.

Anyway, I was just wondering what people think about the convenient use of expiry dates by businesses. I’m assuming they’re legal but it seems to me that they are just another profit-swelling trick that vendors have in their arsenal.

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Madman, I think we both agree that vouchers generally suck and that expiry dates also suck. I think we just disagree on what should be done about it. I’ll try and find that case you mentioned and have a read. From what you’ve written re your penalties I’d guess it was either a statutory matter with regard to what circumstances banks can charge penalties, or a combination of customer service/make this man go away. Like I said I’ll try and find that case though.

Vy, your leverage is your ability to walk away from the transaction. That is the only leverage that any person has. Like I said, you CAN bargain, you just can’t bargain successfully. There is a difference between the two. Am I meant to weep because you can’t make Target do what you want them to do?

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy9:01 am 07 Jan 09

You CAN bargain the terms of the agreement, they just won’t budge. There are myriad examples of contracts that are set in stone. The company has made an offer, you can either accept it or not accept it. That is your choice and it is a real choice. They don’t owe you anything else.

In order to bargain, you need to have some form of leverage. Buying a voucher from a business does not constitute leverage (unless the value is really, really large).

Jakez – i am in agreeance with you. I probably should have stated that though I am for law and regulation, I don’t always say it’s morally right. Same with agreements, its not always fair but you have to deal with it.

I think some of the major stores need to set a precedence and higher the expiry dates. 12 months may seem like a long time, but for people that a lower disadvantaged and in areas where extensive travel is required, then it can be hard especially if your stock is seasonable like the movies, it always changes and you may not like what is in season.
For example, my partners brother lives in Ulladulla and got given a computer game for last Christmas, which was purchased from the nearest PC store 1.15hrs away. Living in a family with no transport this was of hassle to change as he had received two copies and had a 14 day change of mind policy. I was able to take him on boxing day, but when we got there the store wasn’t open for the day. The next chance he got was 16 days later when an uncle came to visit and offered a trip to the originating store. The store dishonored the change. Don’t take this story as what would happen with a gift expiry date but the concept that sometimes the given time frames need to be bent. I know my grandma only goes to the shops once a year to buy presents for everyone for every occasion – I could only imagine what would happen to a gift card if ever she received one.

Oh and I’m glad you see the point that there is the need to void a voucher and redeem as cash in the instance that you do not agree with the terms.

On the point of my refund, it was a refund that I was protected by under the Trade Practices Act as I purchased chicken from the store which had already expired the day prior. The store I took it back to said that it was change of mind and they don’t honour that for food items. So I called their regional head office who tried to tell me the same thing, I told them that I was claiming it under faulty product under TPA – even though I should have checked before purchasing; it shouldn’t have been available for purchase. They decided to send me a gift voucher – no money order or any other safe distant transfer of money. Plus I did not at all accept a voucher and was told that’s the best they could do for me. I suppose in the future don’t call head offices at 4:55pm!

To explain the re-claiming of my fees back briefly I explained that the fees where known as penalties and for penalties to be charged the bank needs to be at loss up to the cost of the penalty which was $85. I wrote and asked for proof that they were in proportion to the losses suffered. I also stated that I had no opportunity to negotiate the terms of my account and would have no case in ability to change the terms imposing the penalties. Referred to a case set in 1983 with Allstates Leasing which set a legal principle to penalties.
Stated that even though the fees were disclosed to me upfront it had nothing to do with whether is was considered a penalty as disclosure did not excuse unlawful conduct. I also stated that the penalties that were noted as defaults would not be sustained as a breach with penalty as the bank agreement imposed an obligation towards me with a non-compliance fee which was unrelated to damages caused which in turn is unenforceable.
Even though the fees were in accordance with the terms of my account, it is the substance of matter and not the form of the contractual terms where the terms require a payment related to non-compliance which is un-proportional and unrelated to the loss suffered.
I got a letter back stating my fees had been re-paid and that they were sorry.

If you go to a private car park which $2 parking with a 1 hour time limit, they can’t give you a parking ticket as they do not have statutory rights to issue fines. They could only impose what loss was suffered – ei another $2 for the later hour.

“Peanuts or lollies!” sez a boy upstairs.

Skidd Marx said :

had Rob Schneider been a little more active in ’08 then it may be a different story

I missed that.

Good thing you’re not going to Dendy. Less peanut gallery, the better.

H1NG0 said :

What the hell? They gave you a voucher as a refund? That can’t be right. I though by law that stores have to refund in the same say that it was purchsed.

I forgot about this point. Madman, in that instance I agree with you that you are entitled to a proper refund and not a voucher.

Were you legally entitled to a refund though? Some stores give refunds beyond what the law requires, in that instance a voucher is fair enough. I’d try for cash first personally but basically in the end they are doing you a favour (and good customer service) if it’s not a legally required refund.

If you were entitled to a legally required refund and accepted a voucher well then I guess all I can say is shame on you and I hope you have learned your lesson about the evils of vouchers.

Madman said :

Well the thing is there you can actually claim back your bank fees because they don’t let you bargain… I myself have recieved my penalty fees back because they would not let me bargain the fee’s. I wrote to them said pretty much what I’ve written here and that the cost of me being penalised is far from what they have lost. Obviously you didn’t study that part to be able to bargain back your fees/penalties….

Well I’m sorry but it simply goes against the fundamental principles of contract law. I’m not sure what specific fees you are talking about but I very much doubt you were refunded because you couldn’t bargain.

You can’t ‘successfully’ bargain in a store for an ipod usually, nor can you for a can of soft drink. It doesn’t make the contract invalid.

Prove me wrong, give me this magical piece of law that you have found. I’m actually really bloody interested to see it.

However fundamentally I am not interested in what is the law but what is right (this is why I only brought ‘the law’ in as a response to your claims). If what you say is correct, I think that is extremely immoral.

Also the last time I went for a bank loan I disagreed with a clause, crossed it out and initialled it, they took it to their bank manager and they agreed to my change and initialled it also…

This is entirely consistent with my point. You were lucky enough to successfully bargain. That’s great. I’m pleased you were able to. In a recent contract negotiation I couldn’t successfully bargain, it was take it or leave it. That does NOT make the contract invalid. If somebody makes an offer, you make a counteroffer, they don’t accept the counter offer and re present the original offer, and you then accept the original offer, THAT IS A BINDING CONTRACT. It doesn’t matter whether you could negotiate the terms or not, all that matters is at the end of the day whether you accept it or not.

Why do you think that it is totally fair when the biggest country of them all, the US doesn’t think its fair and don’t impose use by dates? You obviously have a problem!

Argumentum ad populum, the idea that because the ‘biggest’ country does it it must be right. That is a logical fallacy mate, not a real argument. Also, I doubt all of the population thinks that it is right, some people in the US still believe in freedom.

I think it is a fair situation because I allow people to enter into mutually consenting voluntarily entered into agreements. Under your system, they can’t do that. People who buy a voucher with an expiry date (and that expiry date is there in my example, I don’t believe in fraud), know what they are getting into. They accept the terms and they buy it.

Madman said :

Just looking at the gift card I received:

“Terms of use:
1. By using this Card, you agree to the full terms and conditions.
2. This Card may be used at participating stores.
3. This card expires 12 months from date of purchase. Our record of your expiry date is final.
4. Not reloadable or redeemable for cash.
6. For full terms and conditions and a list of participating stores visit (URL)”

That hardly seems fair that, especially when 1, if you don’t agree to the terms you can’t get your money back but you can’t use the card…
2, You aren’t given the terms and conditions.
3, You may not have voluntarily entered into the agreement and someone has entered into it on your behalf as a gift.

I think 1 and 2 are fair points and I believe that under the law you would be entitled to void the voucher. If you weren’t, I would agree that you should be able to. This has nothing to do with the expiry date.

Point 3 I do not agree with. If you aren’t the person who bought the voucher you have nothing to say on this matter. It was not your money and it is not your place to interfere in the decisions of others. They aren’t entering into an agreement on your behalf as a gift, they are entering into it themselves to purchase as a gift for you. They accept the terms and conditions and that is the gift they are giving to you. If you don’t like it, your beef is with the gift giver for giving you a crappy gift, not the company.

I know you weren’t happy with the money going to the state but what about a national charity that does good work or something like that? I hardly think that the business should be advantaged by their own unfair rules.

It’s not about where the money goes it’s about two people being able to contract without the initiation of force. No matter where that money goes, I consider it stealing from the business. They never put a gun to anyones head, you are putting a gun to theres and saying ‘give that money to x’.

I don’t think violence is fair.

What the hell? They gave you a voucher as a refund? That can’t be right. I though by law that stores have to refund in the same say that it was purchsed.

Oh yeh, funny thing is – Woolworths gave me this card in leiu of a refund… That’s hardly fair either cause I gave them cash and they gave me a card with terms and conditions I don’t agree too… If I had that $20 in my pocket ot bank I could save it for over 20years earn interest and do what I want with it!

Just looking at the gift card I received:

“Terms of use:
1. By using this Card, you agree to the full terms and conditions.
2. This Card may be used at participating stores.
3. This card expires 12 months from date of purchase. Our record of your expiry date is final.
4. Not reloadable or redeemable for cash.
6. For full terms and conditions and a list of participating stores visit (URL)”

That hardly seems fair that, especially when 1, if you don’t agree to the terms you can’t get your money back but you can’t use the card…
2, You aren’t given the terms and conditions.
3, You may not have voluntarily entered into the agreement and someone has entered into it on your behalf as a gift.

Thats why I believe its unfair trade as if you don’t agree its just trash and free money to them.

I know you weren’t happy with the money going to the state but what about a national charity that does good work or something like that? I hardly think that the business should be advantaged by their own unfair rules.

jakez said :

Incidentally, apparently all bank loans are void because they certainly won’t bargain the terms.

GET EM WHILE THERE HOT EVERYBODY! THERE’S FREE MONEY TO BE HAD…

Well the thing is there you can actually claim back your bank fees because they don’t let you bargain… I myself have recieved my penalty fees back because they would not let me bargain the fee’s. I wrote to them said pretty much what I’ve written here and that the cost of me being penalised is far from what they have lost. Obviously you didn’t study that part to be able to bargain back your fees/penalties….

Also the last time I went for a bank loan I disagreed with a clause, crossed it out and initialled it, they took it to their bank manager and they agreed to my change and initialled it also…

Why do you think that it is totally fair when the biggest country of them all, the US doesn’t think its fair and don’t impose use by dates? You obviously have a problem!

HAHA good point H1NG0

Don’t worry, there are plenty of people out there who view loans and credit cards as exactly that, free money.

Incidentally, apparently all bank loans are void because they certainly won’t bargain the terms.

GET EM WHILE THERE HOT EVERYBODY! THERE’S FREE MONEY TO BE HAD…

Your analysis of what is a legitimate contract and what constitutes a voluntarily entered agreement is compleley ridiculous.

Of course it isn’t voluntary anymore because you have entered into the agreement. If it were voluntary after a contract was formed, contracts would be meaningless.

You CAN bargain the terms of the agreement, they just won’t budge. There are myriad examples of contracts that are set in stone. The company has made an offer, you can either accept it or not accept it. That is your choice and it is a real choice. They don’t owe you anything else.

Having a fixed offer and not modifying it is not unconscionable conduct madman, far from it. You are either seriously deluded about contract law or are taking a gamble that I haven’t studied contract law.

Actually upon reading it again I see where you have misinterpreted what I was saying so to save another salvo I’ll clarify. I’m using voluntary as in something voluntarily entered into. It is the definition of voluntary as opposed to forced and not an agreement upon which the fulfillment of the terms are voluntary.

As we were talking about what is a contract, I thought this was a given.

Madman said :

It’s not a voluntary agreement…. A voluntary agreement would not have money nor would they have to honour the services. it is an “Agreement”; give x money get x money of goods at later date. It’s only the companies putting the use by dates on them to make some quick cash and not have to deliver after the certain date.
I would rather the money go to improving hospitals, roads, education then some business getting the money for nothing…. Obviously Jakez doesn’t care about the community!

It is absolutely a voluntary transaction madman. You are conflating the word voluntary with the concept of ‘volunteering’ as in to do something without pay.

It is a voluntary agreement because you are not forced into the agreement. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and making you buy them. You voluntarily exchange $30 for a $30 voucher that lasts 12 months. If you do this you are clearly a voucher buying idiot but you did so voluntarily. I think buying a voucher is ridiculous but I don’t think anyone has been stolen from.

I assure you I love the community passionately madman, I just don’t think the Government is an efficient being. I certainly don’t think this is a legitimate form of revenue raising.

Mr Evil said :

You wouldn’t happen to work for Dendy, would you, Sallyjones?????

Nah. I know some people who work there but I’m not nessecerally a fan. However I think they do a lot more than say, Hoyts would, and to say that no film in Dendy was worthwhile in the last year is just sheer ignorance, especially considering he uhh… hasn’t seen them?

It’s a weird logic.

grundy said :

So, when’s the release date? 😀

It’s the direct sequal of High School Musical 4 so you’ll have to wait maybe October or something??

I have a friend who bought JBHifi gift cards for his two young nephews who are very in to games. He was really keen on having them buy music (as it is his passion and he wants to share it) so he wrote on the voucher “MUSIC ONLY”.

He knows that it wouldn’t stick as it’s not a valid term nor condition, but he felt that at the very least, the kids would get guilty, dirty looks….

Gift Certificates aren’t inherantly a bad thing. On one hand it shows that you have a vague, passing idea of what the receiver may want, and shows you’re considerate enough not to get them the same thing or something they may end up not liking. The drawback is that sometimes, people will take the value of the cert as an indication of how much the gift bearer thinks they’re worth.

Not that you should ever be friends with people who value you based primarily due to money.

God I hope this post doesn’t suck.

So somebody entering into a voluntary agreement with a company equals stealing, however the Government magically being entitled to that money isn’t stealing?

Quite frankly I hope the Government NEVER gets their hands on it, that way it will be used to fund things of use.

It’s not a voluntary agreement…. A voluntary agreement would not have money nor would they have to honour the services. it is an “Agreement”; give x money get x money of goods at later date. It’s only the companies putting the use by dates on them to make some quick cash and not have to deliver after the certain date.
I would rather the money go to improving hospitals, roads, education then some business getting the money for nothing…. Obviously Jakez doesn’t care about the community!

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I love this site – half the world doesn’t eat three meals a day and we’re bitching and moaning because we didn’t remember to redeem a voucher that cost bugger all for a luxury service we don’t need.

On the rare occasion I give a present, if it has to be a voucher I use the type of voucher that can be redeemed ANYWHERE. You haven’t lived until you see the disappointment on a 7 year old boy’s face turn to joy when they realise that the birthday card you gave them has a twenty in it.

YES! THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT! I’m so sick of vouchers. Cash is king.

neanderthalsis said :

Mrs Neanderthalsis was given a Hoyts voucher with a one month life. So we have until the end of Jan to find a movie worth seeing; a difficult task given the proliferation of teenie/tweenie/kiddie films on for the school holidays and Australia is the only “grown up” film… Might have to wait until Valkrie is released and lower myself to watch a film starring Tom Cruise…

It’s a hard knock life.

neanderthalsis10:24 am 06 Jan 09

Mrs Neanderthalsis was given a Hoyts voucher with a one month life. So we have until the end of Jan to find a movie worth seeing; a difficult task given the proliferation of teenie/tweenie/kiddie films on for the school holidays and Australia is the only “grown up” film… Might have to wait until Valkrie is released and lower myself to watch a film starring Tom Cruise…

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:16 am 06 Jan 09

I love this site – half the world doesn’t eat three meals a day and we’re bitching and moaning because we didn’t remember to redeem a voucher that cost bugger all for a luxury service we don’t need.

On the rare occasion I give a present, if it has to be a voucher I use the type of voucher that can be redeemed ANYWHERE. You haven’t lived until you see the disappointment on a 7 year old boy’s face turn to joy when they realise that the birthday card you gave them has a twenty in it.

Roadrage77 said :

I’m assuming you’ve already considered forgery as an option? Failing that I would explore physical intimidation of a Dendy employee. Nothing greivous, just a few firm slaps to the face and/or a kick to the groin can do wonders.

I’ve always wanted to have a reason to hurt a customer. Self defence seems adequate.

Madman said :

It is a more better idea then the retailer getting the money as the unclaimed gift goes to the government and is used accordingly to fund things of use. Because ultimately the retailer hasn’t lost any money from it… Australia should adopt a model like this, as it’s fairer…

ASIC’s need to get their act together on this issue.

So somebody entering into a voluntary agreement with a company equals stealing, however the Government magically being entitled to that money isn’t stealing?

Quite frankly I hope the Government NEVER gets their hands on it, that way it will be used to fund things of use.

Even if Woody Caruso thinks Skidd’s issue is invalid, hasn’t this thread been a festival of goodwill for Dendy? *clap* *clap* to them

Mr Evil said :

I’m sorry, but the RiotACT “Shoulder-To-Cry-On” offer expired on January 1st, 2008!

*chuckle*

Now that is just plain evil, Mr Evil!

sepi said :

It is hard for staff to keep track of what is a valid voucher, and what is a home-made jobbie, if you have to honour any ancient voucher someone presents from 5 years ago.

You’ll note that gift vouchers are very rare these days and they are now referred to as gift cards which are validated over their company database.

Seeing a movie within a year is quite an achievable task.

It is hard for staff to keep track of what is a valid voucher, and what is a home-made jobbie, if you have to honour any ancient voucher someone presents from 5 years ago.

Skidd Marx said :

Screw you guys.

All I ever wanted was a shoulder to cry on.

I’m sorry, but the RiotACT “Shoulder-To-Cry-On” offer expired on January 1st, 2008!

Sallyjones said :

There were plenty of excellent films in ’08, just obviously not for the computer-using neo-bogans who post retarded corporate rage ‘stories’ like this one that the riotact and similar sites can be often synonymous with. Maybe this year they’ll finally release ROBOT DEATH BOOBS 2 X: TURBO CAR EDITION SEX MUTANT

You wouldn’t happen to work for Dendy, would you, Sallyjones?????

Actually it’s interesting to see that in most American States the unclaimed gift card monies go to the states, 60% to the states and 40% to the retailer in costs.
Other states such as California have a no expiration on gift cards law. And other states have the act of if a gift card is not claimed within 3 years the money goes to the state however the gift card is not expired; the consumer then comes in 4 years later and uses the card and the retailer has to claim their money back… Oh and all American State laws have a minimum expiry time of between 3 to 5 years.
Also Walmart has deployed state wide in the US that there will be no expiry on any of their vouchers

It is a more better idea then the retailer getting the money as the unclaimed gift goes to the government and is used accordingly to fund things of use. Because ultimately the retailer hasn’t lost any money from it… Australia should adopt a model like this, as it’s fairer…

It seems that America are doing it right for the people and sticking it up ya’s that are all like “ohhh you had 12 months shut up winger!”

Also it’s isn’t really obvious to why companies have expiry dates on gift cards; as it would hardly seems worth the bad PR….
They’ve already got your money; it’s sitting in their bank account earning interest.
The cost of keeping track of the card in their corporate database is negligible.
It annoys consumers;
The amount of money at stake is generally small.

ASIC’s need to get their act together on this issue.

If you don’t use them within the given time frame you only have yourself to blame. We’ve all done it, and when I do it I kick myself, not the greedy capitalist pig dogs who made an offer that I readily accepted.

Vouchers only exist because people seem to think they are a good idea/can’t bare the thought of giving cash as a present. Quite frankly I think they almost deserve to be burned.

As an aside, EB vouchers don’t have an expiry date (I recently discovered after having neglectfully not redeemed one that I received about 14 months ago. Most pleasing.

Sallyjones said :

ROBOT DEATH BOOBS 2 X: TURBO CAR EDITION SEX MUTANT

PS:

This should DEFINITELY go to the Pool Room.

Sallyjones said :

ROBOT DEATH BOOBS 2 X: TURBO CAR EDITION SEX MUTANT

Need to stop laughing out load at work… >.>

So, when’s the release date? 😀

Luxury. When I was a lad, we had to send in a form, hold onto another, send it in 16 months later, provide a copy of the receipt, prove that I was the owner of said receipt, send in 50 points of proof that I was indeed who I claimed to be, answer several questions to prove I was an Australian citizen, and dance the Makarena while skulling a VB. And if you told the kids of that today, they wouldn’t believe you.

cold vb? you were lucky.

Sallyjones said :

Maybe this year they’ll finally release ROBOT DEATH BOOBS 2 X: TURBO CAR EDITION SEX MUTANT

Here’s hoping.

When you go to buy a house – you get terms you agree to…
If every bank offered you a full price home loan with 12 months to pay and if you don’t you get it re-possessed but you don’t have the option to negotiate and you lose all that money and the house and there was no options, then thats unconscionable.

Would you say tough luck you had 12 months stop whinging… It’s the same principle. Especially if the place as you say “have been no good movies in at least 12 months”.

What if Dendy offered one movie over the 12 months in which had bad reviews… Would you not so call “whine”?
You could also make the agreement quite controversial by saying you are a third party within the terms as the agreement should have been transfered to yourself when gifted and that the other party would have to re-negotiate the terms to make it “contractual”. You can’t legally transfer terms without agreement of all three parties! I can’t just go buy a car under loan and not pay the loan back and say “oh I transferred the terms to trevar” and think it’s all sweet…

There were plenty of excellent films in ’08, just obviously not for the computer-using neo-bogans who post retarded corporate rage ‘stories’ like this one that the riotact and similar sites can be often synonymous with. Maybe this year they’ll finally release ROBOT DEATH BOOBS 2 X: TURBO CAR EDITION SEX MUTANT

I’m agreeing that there have been no good movies, however, I don’t think there is a clause in the voucher’s terms and conditions that says “If there are no good movies within the 12 monht period, then this voucher is valid for another 12 months”. I know, it sucks.

Its like having a problem with your car since you bought it but you take it in to get repaired after the warranty expires and say “it was like it when I bought it so its warranty”. Sorry buddy, thats not how life goes.

Sorry your mums money got wasted. I have a similar situation. I don’t shop at Sanity but I seem to always get a voucher for Christmas and I usually have to make an impulse buy just before the voucher expires. Better luck next time.

H1ngo,

Did you mean to contradict yourself?
“If you can’t find a movie to see in 12 months, …its your fault”
“there have been no good movies in at least 12 months”

Maybe Skidd was hoping to wait and see something schmaltzy like Marley and me or Yes Man, rather than something decent like “Slumdog Millionaire” or “Wall-E”?

Oh and yes, you are right, there have been no good movies in at least 12 months, that I can agree with.

I saw a similar complaint from some bogan on ACA complaining that she didn’t use her Westfield voucher within 12 months because it was a 20 minute drive to the closest Westfield. The stupidity of these people is almost too much to comprehend.

12 Months – Need I say more? YOU HAD 12 MONTHS! If you can’t find a movie to see in 12 months, then its not the fault of the “pimp faced nerd”, its your fault for being a stupid stupid douche. You don’t happen to also get overcharged for pizzas do you?

trevar said :

12 months is plenty of time, and it’s not fair to expect more. Businesses are subject to the fluctuations of markets, and set their prices accordingly. We haven’t had any huge changes to the operational costs of cinemas in recent years, but that doesn’t mean we won’t, and a businessperson shouldn’t be obliged to honour a ticket sold in one era during a different era.

Besides, a voucher is an agreement. I buy a product or service now, and I get it later, according to the conditions set at the time of purchase. If you’re not happy with the conditions, don’t buy it or negotiate before buying. But don’t start wining and carrying on after you have (or your mum has) agreed to the conditions and failed to meet them.

If you bought a voucher for a movie in 1978 and brought it back to the same cinema in 2008 you would be getting something of a very different value from what you paid for, so why would a businessperson make such an offer? They offer vouchers valid for twelve months. If your mum wants you to go see a movie, and you agree to do so in thirteen months’ time, she can just give you the cash. If she really wants you to see one sooner, she should know that that’s why God gave her a handbag; to beat you with until you do as you’re told you lazy little boy.

Trev your partly wrong in your context… If businesses don’t want to obligate to give a service for which is pre-paid, they shouldn’t offer the service in the first place. They need to legally prove that they are out of pocket by letting you see a film for which is pre-paid on a voucher… And with interest made from money held before service and the film showing even if they weren’t honouring the voucher, there is no reason… Even if operating costs went up, they have still benefited from having your service before patronage.

Also I have to point out my fact on the bargaining of the voucher, I bet if you went to Dendy and asked for a voucher that has 5 years expiry, they would say no, forcing you into a fixed terms of agreement because you need the service. The fact is that it is a business rule fixed to that business, cause as I said before I use vouchers for car washes that I bought in 2004. The prices have changed but they still honour the vouchers because they have received the money in advance for the SAME SERVICE…
It would be different if Dendy turned into a Restaurant and scrapped their movies, because i’m not able to get the same service as I have pre-purchased.

Yes, and as a movie going patron, I would much rather not be exposed to Skidd Marx’s dumps of revenge just because some pedantic and over-zealous bottom-holic manager with delusions of grandeur was too tight to honour a negligibly late voucher!

It’s just un-Australian to be that mean!! That man would definitely have been on the wrong side of the Eureka Stockade if you ask me ….

I kinda agree that expiry dates on vouchers are well annoying…. I recieved a gift card for Myer in July last year. Now Myer gift card expire 2 years after date of issue.. The date of issue on my Myer gift card says 02/07. Eg Feb 2007, When it was actually purchased on the 22nd July 2008.

Myer refused to reissue a new card with the correct expiry date, so instead of me having 2years to shop til I drop.. I currently only have a month left to spend it.

(I will also point out this was a work bonus, and I was with my boss when she purchased said gift card)

Who cares if you bought the ticket in 1978? They let you sit in a seat and watch a movie … once! Big deal!!

Every time I go most of the cinema is empty as.

Also, I think being flexible by 1 month is not unreasonable in a cinema case.
As I just stated, the cost to the cinema is $0.01, because they’re showing the film anyway, but what if someone wanted to see a film that comes out next month.
Jan 01 is a big date for new releases, and if someone bought a voucher in December for a Xmas present, then they can’t save it for the upcoming January release in 13 months. (And we’re talking 13 months, not 30 years, Trevar.)

Sometimes rules need to be flexible if it doesn’t really hurt/cost the business.

I bet the Dendy had at least two empty seats during that session, probably more, so they probably wouldn’t have lost out by having to turn away 2 cash-paying patrons if they had have bent the rules, and allowed Skidd Marx in…..and would have had an appreciative (and future) patron.

I hope the expense they saved by wear and tear of those seats negates the bad press by word of mouth.

And another thought:
how would you know which movies were good if you’ve never seen them? And even if you did know which ones weren’t worth seeing by your superhuman powers, how would you know the difference between a good one and a bad one if you never go to see bad ones?

nice one trevar.

12 months is plenty of time, and it’s not fair to expect more. Businesses are subject to the fluctuations of markets, and set their prices accordingly. We haven’t had any huge changes to the operational costs of cinemas in recent years, but that doesn’t mean we won’t, and a businessperson shouldn’t be obliged to honour a ticket sold in one era during a different era.

Besides, a voucher is an agreement. I buy a product or service now, and I get it later, according to the conditions set at the time of purchase. If you’re not happy with the conditions, don’t buy it or negotiate before buying. But don’t start wining and carrying on after you have (or your mum has) agreed to the conditions and failed to meet them.

If you bought a voucher for a movie in 1978 and brought it back to the same cinema in 2008 you would be getting something of a very different value from what you paid for, so why would a businessperson make such an offer? They offer vouchers valid for twelve months. If your mum wants you to go see a movie, and you agree to do so in thirteen months’ time, she can just give you the cash. If she really wants you to see one sooner, she should know that that’s why God gave her a handbag; to beat you with until you do as you’re told you lazy little boy.

I feel that vouchers also shouldn’t have an expiry date. The business has had to pay goods and service tax on the gift certificate, but no goods or services were provided, therefore no actual real transaction has been made, therefore you’re entitled to what you purchased…

Also above there was the argument of the prices going up… Prices also go down, therefore they would make money off it also – especially if we’re heading for a recession there will defiantly be a price drop.
Also what about the interest from your money being held? Even if the price went up, the business that held your money is being advantaged for the past and also piling interest into their account!

My work had bought a lot of car wash vouchers from the old Tamills car wash in Braddon in 2004. 5 Years later they are now Waves Car Wash and still honour our vouchers. That’s fair business.

random said :

The argument I heard is that it’s to simplify accounting etc. — if there’s no expiry date, the voucher has to be kept on the books forever as a liability. (Not sure how true that is, but it seems reasonable.)

It’s not a liability because you’ve already received the monies. It’s not protecting any of their interests by having these terms imposed.

I think it’s pretty sick of business taking advantage – and I would also write to the manager.
Before you go to consumer affairs you have to show that you’ve tried to resolve the issue in the first place… For example a copy of a signed dated letter to the manager giving write of reply within 14 days.

I would state to the manager and later to consumer affairs that:
1 – The difference between the bargaining powers between Dendy and yourself as an individual consumer. Point out that they are aware that they didn’t offer any opportunity to negotiate the terms and conditions of the sale, and in any case you would not have the ability to change the terms of the expiry date in the terms. Therefore it would be unconscionable for Dendy to enforce the terms upon you.
2 – Point out that by enforcing the terms upon you with no bargaining power and impose the terms that they could be engaging in unconscionable conduct within the meaning of 51AB of the Trade Practices ACT 1974(Cth) particularly because of the lack of bargaining powers relative to you and the fact that the terms imposing these conditions are not reasonably necessary for the protection of their legitimate interests.

Also you could request that your $70 be refunded to you on the conditions that the transaction was done unconscionably by Dendy and you didn’t receive any service which was paid for.

That sucks, The Brad!

just got my $100 cashback for my AV software. only took 12-months. just in time for the subscription renewal… @ $100!

“buy laptop, send in form, get money”.

Luxury. When I was a lad, we had to send in a form, hold onto another, send it in 16 months later, provide a copy of the receipt, prove that I was the owner of said receipt, send in 50 points of proof that I was indeed who I claimed to be, answer several questions to prove I was an Australian citizen, and dance the Makarena while skulling a VB. And if you told the kids of that today, they wouldn’t believe you.

> Did you have to be organised and wait 16 months?

No, this was just “buy laptop, send in form, get money”.

Justbands,

Did you have to be organised and wait 16 months?
You made it sound easy, so maybe I’m just too disorganised to file a voucher, and find it again 16 months later, similar to using a movie ticket within the 12 month period. If I had a 16 month diary, the task may have been easier (or if I used my diary regularly, I would have found it on the last page for Dec 31, which is where I stored it.)

> Anyone ever successfully used cashback?

Once…it was no hassle at all. Got our son a laptop, sent off the form, got our cashback….easy!

What random said @35 is right – nipples on a grown man are, indeed, useful. Who wants a nippleless man FFS? Hmmmm?

Anyone ever successfully used cashback? It’s a rip-off in disguise IMHO. You need to send in voucher A to register, then hold onto Voucher B for x months (where x was about 16 months in my case) When x months expire, you have about 14 days to then send in Voucher B for your cashback redemption.
I stored Voucher B somewhere very safe, and then forgot where it was x months later, until (x months + 2 months), when I then found it and kicked myself repeatedly. Missed out on about $1000.
I suspect this is how the Cashback company makes their money.

And then there are all the mobile phone companies who simply delete any unused phone credit you buy on pre-purchase.

. . . and keep the interest.

Businesses seem to cope with accounting for other non-current liabilities – why is this one so difficult?

What random said @9 is right – if there’s no expiry date, the value of all outstanding vouchers ever issued counts as a liability on the company’s books – it effectively represents dead money that they can’t do anything with other than stick it in the bank.

I must take extreme exception to this article. Nipples on a grown man are, indeed, useful.

Woody Mann-Caruso9:16 am 05 Jan 09

I’m getting a 404 error on lecture.com

rofl

So much for hoping that 2009 would be the year that ’some a$$hole’ didn’t hurt my feelings.

Stop acting like a twit, then expecting sympathy for acting lke a twit, then expecting more sympathy when people call you out for being a twit, and maybe your dreams will come true.

I don’t think the vouchers should expire – after all the vendor has the benefit of holding the cash well in advance of the consumption of goods. If they won’t honour the voucher, you should be able to cash it out, possibly less an admin fee.

I really don’t understand the reasoning used by people who give gift vouchers. It seems to be that thay think it isn’t nice to give cash but don’t have a clue about what the recipient would like, so they give something less useful while making sure that they needn’t bother thinking about what a good present would be.

So my principled position on this whole issue is present = yes, cash = yes, voucher = no.

oh, and if what blub said (@ #2) Don’t, anyone, for the love of God – buy gift certs from Dendy! 1 month expiry is true poop! Sometimes months go by without so much as a semi-decent movie!!! …and you’d just be encouraging them…

for “Consumer Affairs” = Office of Regulatory Services

A letter to them, cc’d to Dendy would probably do the trick…

LOL Granny @#28

Hey Skidd Marx – I’d go see the manager and ask, or maybe speak to someone from consumer affairs… stuff everyone’s “get over it” comments, see what you can do to see a movie dammit! Especially given the comfy seats and “table-service” provided by those tix… The worst they dude can say is “no”!… Also try CT’s Consumer Voice column if Consumer Affairs proves to be useless… most businesses would be happy to keep your custom (I would presume)…

… if anyone wanted a “pathetic whiner’ free 2009, why the fark would they come back to RA!?! (known hot-spot of whiners of all persuasions)

*sigh*

I’m getting a 404 error on lecture.com … fortunately there is always my mum!!

On that note I think we should kill this thread. Seriously.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

So much for hoping that 2009 was going to be ‘pathetic whiner’ free.

You knew there was a date on the vouchers. Did you think it was a decoration, or perhaps a suggestion? Stop blaming the world for your incompetence.

So much for hoping that 2009 would be the year that ‘some a$$hole’ didn’t hurt my feelings.

Thanks Woodymann, I love feeling like $hit.

If I wanted a lecture I’d go to lecture.com.

Some people whinge about anything. How much did you earn in that year?

Come on it has a shelf life get over it.

Screw you guys.

All I ever wanted was a shoulder to cry on.

Woody Mann-Caruso10:04 pm 04 Jan 09

So much for hoping that 2009 was going to be ‘pathetic whiner’ free.

You knew there was a date on the vouchers. Did you think it was a decoration, or perhaps a suggestion? Stop blaming the world for your incompetence.

Lazy!

You had 12 months to use them. Ample time to go see one of the (half)decent movies out last year!

If you really didn’t want to see any movies last year, then you should have given the tickets away before they expired. 😛 Let someone else make use of them.

Get over it – you had a year.

barking toad6:41 pm 04 Jan 09

Look on the bright side.

You might have used them to watch Baz’s tosh, “Australia”.

Then you’d be chasing vouchers for razor blades.

I also struggled to pick a movie worth spending my Dendy Premium vouchers on – took about 9 months before I decided nothing good was coming out and to just see something before they expired, which ended up being better than I expected.

12 months is long enough – stick it to the fridge with the expiry date showing so you don’t forget.

Tough. 12 months is AMPLE time. Move on.

I can understand the vouchers which are for something ie movie ticket, facial, etc expiring as the price originally paid may not match the price at a later date, but why do vouchers for a pure monetary value also expire? It is your loss if you take forever to use them as their value declines.

In saying this, I would like to give a wrap to the Chairman and Yip which honoured a gift voucher I recieved which was one month out of date. No questions asked by them.

Clown Killer6:21 pm 04 Jan 09

By my understanding, if you write someone a cheque it’s only valid for twelve months too. I think if you cant get off your butt in a year then fair enough. That said, I would have thought that any business working in what is supposed to be a tighter economic climate might be trying just that little but harder not to disenfranchise potential customers.

Like BerraBoy says, it’s a scam.
I used to work for a company that gave out Sanity vouchers as rewards for meritorious conduct. But they were hardly ever redeemed. Who wins? Sanity.
To argue the ‘you can’t pay last year’s prices’ is to forget the fact the vendor (Dendy in this case) already has the money.

I’m with swaggie.

At the extreme you can’t expect to pay todays prices for something and then choose how long till you want it or want to use it.

ie: a car, a boat, gold, mmmmmmm….beer.

The principle is the same.

The old saying, use it or lose it.

Swaggie said :

12 months to get off your arse and go see a Movie seems reasonable enough, sell the tix if you don’t feel any movies being shown are worthy of your patronage.

You’re missing the point Swaggie. I should be able to take as long as I want to see a movie since I’ve paid for it. I can’t see how its any skin off their collective nose (had Rob Schneider been a little more active in ’08 then it may be a different story).

How is it fair that they get $70 in their pocket in exchange for… nothing? My gripe isn’t with Dendy per se but the notion of an expiry date on gift certificates in general. From now on I’m not gonna buy them on principle. Not only that, but next time I’m out Civic way on my way home from the Blue Elephant I’m stopping by to take a dump at Dendy and just quietly, there’s next to no chance it’ll be inside the bowl. I don’t hold grudges though.

That’s very sad, missing the “use by” date by a few days. There are still many places that have vouchers with no (apparent) expiry date though, so vouchers are not always bad. (I’ve had several Borders vouchers for 2-3 years partly due to the high value, also music and clothing store vouchers, one I used 5 years after receiving it.) I think it’s best not to dwell on it too much and just take it as a lesson learnt. (Or, take your mum to a movie at Hoyts or Greater Union!?)

And random, the accounting argument is not technically true.

12 months to get off your arse and go see a Movie seems reasonable enough, sell the tix if you don’t feel any movies being shown are worthy of your patronage.

The argument I heard is that it’s to simplify accounting etc. — if there’s no expiry date, the voucher has to be kept on the books forever as a liability. (Not sure how true that is, but it seems reasonable.)

I’m assuming you’ve already considered forgery as an option? Failing that I would explore physical intimidation of a Dendy employee. Nothing greivous, just a few firm slaps to the face and/or a kick to the groin can do wonders.

My mum gave me a voucher for my birthday – $60 for pampering at some beauty place, which is also a lot to her as she is now retired.

Can I just say that for a disorganised person a voucher is not a gift, it’s a cruel and horrible punishment fraught with disaster and devastated relationships.

I once couldn’t face a friend for four years after I lost a voucher she gifted to me for my fortieth birthday.

Now I will have to listen to the disappointment of my mother – or lie and spend $60 myself on something I can’t really afford and don’t really want. However all attempts to dissemble will be futile. I will be helpless in the iron grip of her questing probes for truth. Then comes the lecture ….

*groan*

This is the mechanism by which I suffer:

1. I get vouchers.
2. I put them somewhere safe.
3. They are then lost forever where they expire quietly and decay whilst wreaking maximum havoc with my most intimate relationships.

Do not ever give me a voucher for any thing any time any way, anyone! Take me out instead for that pampering or that movie. Surprise me! Spare me ….

Ask to see the manager; the ‘pimply faced Dendy nerd’ is just following the party line, but you could always try to negotiate a win/win with the manager. Perhaps explain your plight, acknowledge the fault is yours and offer to pay an additional $20.00 to use your tickets? Some managers may agree to a negotiated outcome or, in the face of your polite and reasonable request, may even let you use the out-of-date vouchers (and maybe they won’t, but you can only try).

As I think I’ve said before vouchers, gift certificates etc. are gold in the retail industry as many just equate to 100% profit for the retailer when people such as Skidd for various reasons fail to use the voucher on time.

My wife used to run a bookshop and loved selling gift certificates. They were hardly ever redeemed. That said Skidd, I’d have asked to see the Manager. If there were only a few days out of date I’d have pushed the issue with him/her. In fact, if this had happened 6 weeks ago I could have helped you. My next door neighbor’s brother’s significant other (its not as convoluted as it sounds) was the Manager at Dendy until then.

Sorry I should clarify that I received the tickets for Xmas ’07 with a 12 month validity period. I just feel guilty for having wasted my mums chrissy present as $70 is a lot of money to her. Now I’m gonna have to lie and say that I loved every minute of Baz’s “epic”.

Legality I guess would rest on the expiry date being in the terms and conditions, and that they were available. I have always thought that they are something of a rip-off. And the “costs increase” argument sounds good at first glance, but then you remember that they have had the benefit of possessing your money for the last year without paying you any interest.

Shelf life this year was one month – I know a few people who only have the next couple of weeks to use the tickets – and they were just bought last month as xmas gifts.

Can we then assume that this mean Dendy’s likely to increase their ticket prices soon?

Voucher expiry dates are a tried-and-true source of profit that companies have been using for decades – because most people end up not using their vouchers before it’s too late, the company makes almost 100% profit from the voucher. I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s not exactly a new phenomenon.

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