21 May 2008

Social group for childfree people

| qwerky
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I am 47 years old, married, and I have no children (that I know of!). I’m not against children at all (I married ‘late’, and it just hasn’t happened for us), but I feel that society is certainly more accepting of couples if they DO have children. Most of my friends are either single, or married with children and not generally available to do things socially without a huge kerfuffle about child caring arrangements.

As I’m currently not working (between contracts, not unemployable!), I seem to be caught in this no-person’s land between the retirees, and the ‘young mum’s with bubs’, which is quite alienating during the day when the rest of the world seems to be working as all of my friends are.

For some time now I’ve thought about starting a social group, which could include walks, dinners out, coffee or concerts, for people who do not have children. And as I don’t have current access to a work bulletin board, I thought I’d start here to see what interest there is in such a venture.

If you’re interested, please get in touch. Also please let me know if you have any ideas about how to promote such a venture.

Thanks, I hope to hear from you soon, Virginia.

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Hi
I am trying to start up a childfree women’s support group in Canberra.
I’ve set it up on meetup and it’s got the title “Childless by circumstance in Canberra’
Please join it if you are still interested in meeting with other childfree women.
Thanks
Sarah

someoneincanb8:53 pm 23 May 08

Just a bit curious – what happens to members of the “club” if they happen to conceive (either deliberately or accidentally)? Do they get the boot?

fabforty said :

Personally, Virginia, I say WOO-HOO. Here was I thinking I am the only one struggling with a dwindling social life because I have friends who are all married with kids.

I also think that trying to do this on-line via Yahoo or whatever is probably not the way. On another thread on this site, a few of us have been trying to form a group for a trivia night. Are you interested ?

If so, perhaps we can just propose a time and place and throw the invitation open to all Riot ACTers and friends.

fabforty, yes I’m interested in a trivia night. My social life is not so much dwindling as stagnant. Although I have some very good friends who I’ve known for a long time (also childfree!), I think it’d be fun to meet some new people in a new environment, and I’m sure they’d think so too!

Could you please email me at ACTgadabouts at gmail dot com so we can make contact away from this thread, thanks, Virginia

It’s interesting how, in discussions like these, some people become very aggressive at the idea that some people just don’t want kids, and some don’t enjoy having them around.

Agreed, Ant. Kids can be ferking annoying – I might feel differently at some stage in the future, but I can’t see myself having any (and hey, I mightn’t ever get the chance to make that choice).

I-filed said :

Oh dear, NSOH.

you’re picking a fight on the basis of a harmless joke? Sounds as though your social club isn’t going to be much fun!

GBFT (try and work THAT one out!) *hmmmm…wonders who is trying to pick the fight* Do I have to put a great big fat LOL or wink or whatever the latest silly expression is to indicate that I’m also having a joke? And why would a female with ‘NSOH’ say ‘none that I know of’ when asked if I have children? (as I said straight off in my original post). So PTIYPASI.

purrycat said :

Sounds like a wonderful idea to me. I’m a housewife with no children by choice, still fairly new to Canberra, and unfashionably introverted so that combination can be pretty alienating.

I’ve noticed how being childless is often seen as being a bit selfish, especially by friends and family with children. My own brother didn’t seem to care one way or the other years ago, but now that he has children I’ve been on the receiving end of the odd lecture on “doing your bit” etc. What’s weirder is that being not only childless, but also a housewife seems to make people feel they deserve an explanation for our choices. I don’t recall anybody being especially nosy about my life when I was able to reply that I worked at xyz company and did xyz job. Suddenly it’s as if I’m a danger to feminists everywhere and better come up with a good explanation quick! lol

Anyway, I agree that a yahoo or google group or something like that would be handy. Those things usually have a calendar to make it easy to organise dates. Or as far as websites go wordpress.com has easy free web-based blogs. Twitter’s an option as well for quickly organising something.

Thanks Purrycat. I’m in the process of setting something up on WordPress.com, but not necessarily to do with this fledgling group. I’ll also have a look at Twitter.

I can understand how you’d feel alienated. At the risk of ‘exposing’ myself here to a few people who seem to delight in making snide comments (why isn’t there the facility to send private messages?)[Ed. (Jazz), mostly cause its a pain in the arse to do, and also because we cant trust people to be civil to each other in public. Imagine what it would be like with private messaging enabled. Maybe sometime down the track we might do it], I find it alienating not currently working. The world seems to be full of people having business meetings, or young mothers and their ‘bubs’, or retirees. I don’t seem to quite fit!

My email is ACTgadabouts at gmail dot com if you’d like to get in touch.

cheers
Virginia

Oh dear, NSOH.

you’re picking a fight on the basis of a harmless joke? Sounds as though your social club isn’t going to be much fun!

I-filed said :

“Virginia (giggle).”

Qwerky, you could call it the Virginia Club after Virginia Hausseger! :]

Why? If I was as arrogant as to want to call it after someone, why wouldn’t I call it the Virginia Club after myself? *although methinks I shouldn’t be foolish enough to be lured into these sorts of verbal scraps*

“Virginia (giggle).”

Qwerky, you could call it the Virginia Club after Virginia Hausseger! :]

NoAddedMSG, I am surprised that you read into my suggestions that I am biased towards having children personally. I was actually trying to convince people that we ought to study the consequences of having children for all of us, not just bicker over the degree to which a desire had by a self is selfish.

I don’t like the relativist position either, which has been restated by peterh, who is content to say, in effect, ‘What does it matter? Everyone’s choices on reproduction are all right and of no consequence to anyone but themselves.’ In fact these choices are of immense consequence to all of us, and the heat in the ‘reproduce or not’ discussions is evidence of that. I hope it isn’t too obvious to point out the possible consequences of the ending or continuation of the species, the disruption or furthering of local, national and global economies, and a spectrum of individual suffering or pleasure for reasons of private losses or benefits; or to suggest the incalculable numbers and qualities of possible events that will flow from the myriad harmful or beneficial actions of individuals who are yet to be born! I just would like people to acknowledge that reproductive choices are important and interesting because of their consequences.

I don’t see much hope of arguing convincingly that human beings have no instinctual need to reproduce, because we share so much of our nature anatomically and genetically with the animal world, and because the fact that animals of all kinds take great pains to reproduce seems to support strongly the idea of there being an instinct, or automatic will, to reproduce.

Granting this, I agree that a lot hangs on whether you ascribe to instinctual needs a value comparable to a self-evident good. I can see some sense in arguing that we have an instinctive need to reproduce; that to satisfy instinctive needs is a self-evident good; therefore that denying the need to reproduce for any reason cannot be good.

My own view is that having a child isn’t rationally justifiable no matter how much one would like to have one, regardless of whether one’s desires to reproduce are a matter of instinct, romance or religion; because there is a deep asymmetry in the degree to which life is pleasurable on one hand, and painful on the other. It cannot be good to bring into existence a creature that is bound to suffer as much or more than it will enjoy in its life – and that will die in full consciousness of what is happening to it. To me that consideration is so fundamental that it overrides even the strong counterargument that we do ourselves unnecessary suffering to deny our own reproductive instincts. For there are inevitably other interests in avoiding suffering than one’s own – not least, should you reproduce, your child’s. And if you are not trying, as a general rule in life, to reduce unnecessary suffering, what is it you are doing?

someoneincanb said :

qwerty – interesting you start out with “society is more accepting of couples of they have children” but then explain why YOU are not accepting of friends who do have children…”not generally available to do things socially without a huge kerfuffle … “.

I have children but I have just as many friends who do not as do. If you actually enjoy someone’s company it shouldn’t matter if they do or do not have kids.

I am accepting of people who have children, and have many friends who do. If I excluded people who had children from being my friends, I’d be very lonely indeed! However, my comment about the ‘kerfuffle’ of childcare arrangements was a flippant, throwaway remark and is certainly not representative of how I feel about people who have children. I was speaking only of my own experience in organising outings and the challenges I’ve encountered at times.

If I knew how to write another post without responding to one person’s in particular, I would do so. I can’t find any facility to contact anyone privately? I don’t find this message board system to be very user friendly and I am a novice here, so bear with me as I try to respond generally to everyone. [Ed. (Jazz) try the big blue “post an item” button on the top of the page. or the big orange “posting instructions” if you get lost. If in doubt you can always contact us as well by clicking on the contact link at the top]

Thank you to everyone who contributed their views to my discussion, particularly those who provided helpful advice about how to go about setting up a social group of this nature. But I want to be clear that I did not make my previous post with the view of insulting people who have children, or questioning their right to do so. I’m bemused at the strong opinions my post has spawned! (excuse the pun).

All I want to do is to moot the idea of starting a SOCIAL group for people, singles or couples, who don’t have children, for whatever reason. I’m not interested in having heated debates on the subject, I can’t think of anything more boring. I am aware that, perhaps I didn’t choose the most appropriate bulletin board to post this message on, but I’m not aware of any other general Canberra bulletin boards? If someone can tell me of one or two, I’d be interested to know about them.

If you would like to contact me and find out more about my ideas for such a group and provide more of your own, my email address is ACTgadabouts at gmail dot com. I’ve set up this address specifically for this purpose, and it could also be the working name of such a group. I hope to hear from you soon! regards Virginia

I have many friends that don’t have kids, and others that do. I really don’t care what they do, I chose to have kids and I love all 3 of them. That is my choice. If you don’t have kids, no worries. it is your choice.

Occasionally I don’t attend events that have been organised, but that can be down to whether I am sick, my wife is sick, the kids are sick, I have double booked an event, etc. I don’t use the kids as an excuse, some times either my wife or I will go on our own – it doesn’t feel weird, we just don’t want to let the other people down. I won’t be drawn into complaining about the members of society that don’t want to have kids – more oxygen for mine.

needlenose’s I just think it is unadulterated bullshit for anyone to suggest that having children is an unselfish act. Regardless of the fact that it does have social utility, deciding to have kids is one of the most purely selfish things anyone can decide to do.

amen to that.

It’s interesting how, in discussions like these, some people become very aggressive at the idea that some people just don’t want kids, and some don’t enjoy having them around.

and as always, as soon as someone becomes aggressive and starts hurling insults, they’ve lost the argument.

Clueless70 (post #28), your bias is showing…. were you trying to hide it? Only it reads like you were trying to put up the appearance of a balanced consideration of the issue, but it was a token effort because you really don’t believe in one of the choices you are evaluating. You start from the presumption that on some instinctive, deep-down level, absolutely everyone wants to have children (“personal suffering due to the quashing of instinctual needs” as you put it). I don’t think this is correct, I think there are a number of people who just don’t want kids, and the consequences of guilt tripping them into having children are pretty big, they end up with a life situation they simply don’t want. What impact would that have on a child growing up?

Jonathon Reynolds1:03 am 22 May 08

Virginia,

Perhaps set up a group in facebook? Very much along the lines of what Fiona suggested in comment #2 except more focused and more likely to get noticed.

The added benefit is that (for the most part) facebook has “real” people that you can judge by their friend networks as against “lurkers” which seem to frequent the Yahoo, MSN groups.

Deadmandrinking said :

Virginia – the pub.

What pub?

If only Canberra had more local pubs (like Sydney and Melbourne)… having a local is great, but there aren’t many in Canberra.

You are a very sad person Ant, very sad indeed. Perhaps if you got out and mingled in the read world more often (i.e. outside the internet) you would see how everyone else exists.

The way kids behave? What, like kids do?

Jesus there are some pathetic people in this world. Next you’ll be saying kids scare you. Remember that post where you said a doctor fixed up your thumb but you couldn’t remember which one. I reckon its the one stuck up your date

I enjoy spending time with my friends who have kids, but unless it involves sharing a bottle of red and watching TV at theirs, it’s much harder to organise, and less flexible when you do. But that’s fine – if I want to see a concert in a couple of months’ time, I can ring those guys and book for all of us and they have plenty of time to organise it. Then if I want to see a movie the same afternoon, I call a different set of friends. And never underestimate the true value of being single, which is that you can almost always get a ticket to pretty much anything at the very last minute, whereas getting two or more can be impossible. And I wasn’t planning on chatting during the show anyway.

Anyway, I should apologise for dragging this thread way OT when all I wanted to do was commiserate with the OP on the insensitivity of her friends & family. I agree with Maelinar – if your family and so-called friends think you’re selfish for not having children, then you’re better off not spending time with them. I’ve found most people with kids are way more sensitive than that – perhaps you should just be looking for nicer people, not necessarily child-free ones.

No, someoneincanb, it shouldn’t. But when poeple have kids, they change. And often, they find a different path from those who don’t have kids. You can be all ideological about it, or just recognise the experience of many people.

and yeah, most of us would prefer to socialise in spaces without children behaving in the ways they behave. And their parents endlessly telling us how wonderful their kids are.

someoneincanb9:17 pm 21 May 08

qwerty – interesting you start out with “society is more accepting of couples of they have children” but then explain why YOU are not accepting of friends who do have children…”not generally available to do things socially without a huge kerfuffle … “.

I have children but I have just as many friends who do not as do. If you actually enjoy someone’s company it shouldn’t matter if they do or do not have kids.

Woody Mann-Caruso, what are you actually saying? Logical your statement may be, but it is also trivial.

I don’t see how anyone interested in the matter could be satisfied with this: ‘Having children or not is equally selfish, because they are decisions made by selves based on what they want for themselves.’ Yet it seems to be all you are saying.

Whether to have children or not is a massive ethical problem, rivalling that of whether to commit suicide or not. I think ethical problems are best settled by analysing the real consequences of real human actions. It would be better to move immediately on from the trivial statement that decisions made by selves must always be selfish, to consider the consequences of having children, versus consequences of not having children, for everyone.

The only consequence of having children that you mention is that this will boost low birth rates. But many undesirable consequences flow in turn from high birth rates. Some of these are overcrowding, resource shortages and increased individual suffering, since the store of suffering in individual human existence is much larger than that of pleasure. There are beneficial consequences too, such as the pleasure of fulfilling instinctual needs; not just sexual intercourse, I mean, but also the need to love and teach the young.

Some consequences of not having children are, personal suffering due to the quashing of instinctual needs, stresses on social networks resulting from proportional increases in the numbers of aged and infirm, and the possible absolute ending of an embodied form of existence overwhelmingly marked by greater suffering than pleasure. As with the consequences of having kids, for barrenness there are also short term (ie, lifelong) benefits such as relatively higher income and the fulfilment of intellectual and aesthetic needs.

To me it is the analysis and discussion of the real consequences of the choice to reproduce or not that hold interest, not making statements that are so trivial, they cannot help being true.

CanberraResident6:16 pm 21 May 08

M, yes.

It’d be good if there was some way of contacting the Original Poster, too. There’s definitely interest in this, and I bet a few of us would like to help get this off the ground. come on, Qwerky, gi’s yer email address.

Personally, Virginia, I say WOO-HOO. Here was I thinking I am the only one struggling with a dwindling social life because I have friends who are all married with kids.

I also think that trying to do this on-line via Yahoo or whatever is probably not the way. On another thread on this site, a few of us have been trying to form a group for a trivia night. Are you interested ?

If so, perhaps we can just propose a time and place and throw the invitation open to all Riot ACTers and friends.

Deadmandrinking4:29 pm 21 May 08

Virginia – the pub.

WMC, my original post was simply saying that it’s hypocritical of people with children to accuse those without of “selfishness”. That’s true irrespective of whether there was indeed a selfish decision not to have children, and it does, to me, suggest a level of defensiveness on the part of the critic about the choices he has made himself.

Though I must say I know very few people who made an actual decision not to have children – as in the case of the OP, who you will remember was the subject of the criticism under discussion – it just hasn’t happened. It’s not selfishness, its just how the chips fell.

@CR – most people do agree with my posts when they take the time to read and comprehend them.

For the conversation – if your friends/relatives are that shallow that they need to transfer their own insecurities onto you, perhaps its your circle of friends that is deficient. As for relatives, taking them aside and having a very blunt conversation has less ramifications than doing the same to an unrelated colleague.

Woody Mann-Caruso3:29 pm 21 May 08

I was simply making a point that it’s not logically consistent to say that not having kids has nothing to do with selfishness, but that having kids is everything to do with selfishness. Either the decision to have kids is mired in selfishness, in which case it’s a selfish decision whatever you decide, or it isn’t. The result is irrelevant – the choice is what matters.

My view is that people have kids *and* don’t have kids for entirely selfish reasons – unplanned pregancies and undesired infertility aside, as you rightly point out. Don’t have kids? You’re selfish – as is somebody who decided to have them. You both made a decision based on the criteria of what’s best for you.

If somebody says “you don’t have kids, you selfish bastard”, then claiming “I’m not selfish, you are” isn’t logically sound (especially if you’re making appeals to utility, in which case boosting the country’s current low birth rate will win every time). “Yes, and so are you – we just have understandably different views about what’s best for us at the moment”, on the other hand, is entirely logical.

CanberraResident3:03 pm 21 May 08

for once I agree with Mael, get out and about and meet people in person. Stuff the online social groups. Garbage. Computers have this habit of thieving you of your time …

PS – WMC, isn’t the font supposed to be different?

The thing being, as I thought I had made clear, that not everyone without kids has made a choice, or even had the opportunity to make a choice. Unlike everyone who has had a kid, with the possible exception of rape victims.

And I’m not denying that where a decision is made not to have kids, that may be a selfish decision. I’m not arguing, and never have, that childless people are less selfish than those who have kids. I’m just saying that it’s rubbish to suggest that having children is not a selfish act. Add “also” to that sentence if it helps you get my point.

And as I also indicated, had you read the post instead of just cribbing from it, that I don’t grudge those benefits to parents. I just resent the suggestion that not having kids is selfish, when I have never met any parent, or anyone else who ever met a parent, who didn’t really want kids but decided that they ought to have them anyway, for the good of the country. Doesn’t mean I’m not glad you had them, doesn’t even mean I mind subsidising them. Just don’t try to suggest to me you didn’t really want kids, but only had them because you care so much about the rest of us.

If anyone on this board had kids they didn’t really want, solely because they thought the country needed them, by all means speak up.

hairy nosed wombat2:44 pm 21 May 08

There are a number of groups that do social activities, etc for retirees and other empty nesters. They may be 20 years or so older that you, but it is always an idea.

needlenose,

i think I love you 😉

“But I wanna know for suuuure
Come on, hold me tight …
… I love you”

… and then you come in again with the riff, right, Thumper?

Canberra is the hidden haven of oblique hobby groups run by overzealous middle-age somethings. Not only will you be doing something that you like, you get to meet people who are into the same strange s4it as you are.

Online connection forums are a haven for internet pests.

Woody Mann-Caruso1:20 pm 21 May 08

My theory is that those people who suggest it’s selfish not to breed are trying to distract us from how much their lifestyle choices cost the rest of us.

Pfui – it’s pure transference. You’re probably uncomfortably conscious that you’ve made choice which is entirely about your own lifestyle preference, which my kids and I will have to pay for – pretty much every government service you ever receive and will receive – all funded by our taxes, and the taxes children will pay. Let alone those of us who work late because all the singles called in sick because they were out getting p.ssed, and those of us who wanted to take leave in October but missed out because you can afford to go overseas and that’s more important than me spending time with my kids, which I can do anytime, can’t I?

My theory is that those people who suggest it’s selfish to breed are trying to distract us from how much their lifestyle choices cost the rest of us, and will cost the next generation of taxpayers.

I’m not anti-anti-kid; in other circumstances I might not have had one or two of my own. I agree I’d be severely undermining social & economic benefit long-term in propagating the species and failing to ensure a sound base for our taxpaying, service-providing workforce into the future. I just think it is unadulterated bullshit for anyone to suggest that having children is a selfish act. Regardless of the fact that not having them has no social utility, deciding not to have kids is one of the most purely selfish things anyone can decide to do.

purrycat said :

I’ve noticed how being childless is often seen as being a bit selfish, especially by friends and family with children.

Pfui – it’s pure transference. He’s probably uncomfortably conscious that he’s made choice which is entirely about his own lifestyle preference, which you and I now have to pay for – baby bonus, medicare, public education, family tax benefit, subsidised child care, parental leave, all funded by our taxes. Let alone those of us who work late because somebody’s needed to stay til 8pm and your brother has to pick his kids up by 5pm, and those of us who wanted to take leave in October but missed out because your brother gets preference as it’s school holidays.

My theory is that those people who suggest it’s selfish not to breed are trying to distract us from how much their lifestyle choices cost the rest of us.

I’m not anti-kid; in other circumstances I might not have objected to one or two of my own, and I agree there is a social & economic benefit long-term in propagating the species (though personally I’d rather see it occur through overseas adoptions). I just think it is unadulterated bullshit for anyone to suggest that having children is an unselfish act. Regardless of the fact that it does have social utility, deciding to have kids is one of the most purely selfish things anyone can decide to do.

Good luck with that Virginia. Social isolation can be very demoralising – in fact, it can trigger depression. I’d join your group but am just about to re-enter the workforce after writing a thesis.

purrycat said :

I’ve noticed how being childless is often seen as being a bit selfish, especially by friends and family with children. My own brother didn’t seem to care one way or the other years ago, but now that he has children I’ve been on the receiving end of the odd lecture on “doing your bit” etc.

How ironic, seeing as the world is vastly overpopulated! I would define “doing your bit” as resisting the biological urge to propagate the species, not having more kids!

Virginia (giggle).

neanderthalsis11:30 am 21 May 08

Under the new regime, singles and childless couples are not permitted. You will be interned, injected, inspected, detected, infected,neglected and selected for re-education and forced to copulate furiously until you become a Working Family.

But serioulsy folks… Good idea. As a childless couple you do fell like social pariahs at times when everyone around you has kidlets.

purrycat said :

I’ve noticed how being childless is often seen as being a bit selfish, especially by friends and family with children.

Misery loves company.

Those web-based ideas of yours are worth investigating. I hope the OP wants to run with this. Our Yahoo group doesn’t get a huge amount of traffic, sadly, which is why I’m more pro other options. It’s a great site for discussing things and grumbling, and it’s run by the people who run the ChildFree Zone website. If a Canberra area social group was set up, I am sure they’d host a link to it. No Kidding seems to only have a chapter in Brisbane, and I notice they’re not linked on the official No Kidding website in US/Canada.

Woody Mann-Caruso11:14 am 21 May 08

Weird – as a new parent in my early 30s I feel almost the opposite. It seems the world is full of childless singles and couples who can go to a bar, the coast or even overseas at the drop of a hat. Over time, the invitations dwindle as people get sick of hearing you say “well, he has to sleep from 12 til 2, and have dinner at 5, and be in bed at 7, so…” and they just roll their eyes.

No matter – I have a new best friend. He’s an Xbox Media Centre hooked to the net with Linksys router running DD-WRT. He understands I can’t go to the pub, and is happy to sit around and watch Battlestar Galactica over a pint at home.

Sounds like a wonderful idea to me. I’m a housewife with no children by choice, still fairly new to Canberra, and unfashionably introverted so that combination can be pretty alienating.

I’ve noticed how being childless is often seen as being a bit selfish, especially by friends and family with children. My own brother didn’t seem to care one way or the other years ago, but now that he has children I’ve been on the receiving end of the odd lecture on “doing your bit” etc. What’s weirder is that being not only childless, but also a housewife seems to make people feel they deserve an explanation for our choices. I don’t recall anybody being especially nosy about my life when I was able to reply that I worked at xyz company and did xyz job. Suddenly it’s as if I’m a danger to feminists everywhere and better come up with a good explanation quick! lol

Anyway, I agree that a yahoo or google group or something like that would be handy. Those things usually have a calendar to make it easy to organise dates. Or as far as websites go wordpress.com has easy free web-based blogs. Twitter’s an option as well for quickly organising something.

OT, but I’m pretty sure most search engines have been ignoring meta tags since spammers found out about them and made them useless.

That’s a great idea, Fiona! Easier than starting a website. There’s already an australian-based childfree group on yahoo (childfree zone) but the members are spread pretty thin, most are in sydney (as always). thinking on that though, it’s hard to get such a group findable on web searches etc. aren’t there any freebie website services that are template-based?

This kind of group would need some on-going publicity.

Maybe you should start a yahoo group for it, then there’s an easy way to have a mesage board etc, post about events?

I hear you. Everyone I know over the years paired off and had kids, and their lives totally changed. I know that these types of childfree/childless clubs have been started up all over the world. There’s a big net-based mob called “No Kidding” but I don’t think they’ve started up in Canberra yet.

You’d probably need a website of some sort so people could find you (and meta-tag the bloody thing, I’m astonished at all the businesses which evidently pay the bucks for a big fancy website, and it’s not meta-tagged so even a search under their exact name doesn’t find it!). Some way of finding that the group exists, and a way of making contact.

I’ve noticed in the local papers there’s a thing in the personals for “friends” and that’s exactly what it is, people looking for friends, and I have noticed a few in the 40s and childfree category, sadly looking for new friends as their old ones have split off down the (working) Family track.

I reckon you’d have considerable and on-going interest from many people in your venture.

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