12 August 2008

Petrol swiz?

| GuyIAm
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As per usual, now that petrol prices are going down, in Kaleen, CALTEX Kaleen we are not able to buy cheaper petrol, because as usual ALL I mean ALL of the standard ULP pumps are out of order.

Amazing isn’t it ALL standard ULP pumps even though they may be on the same pump unit as the Vortex or Vortex Plus.

Also I can guarantee that between now and tomorrow that no fuel tanked will arrive in the night and that no technician will come to rectify the problem, just some dude will pop around the pumps and remove the labels and reactivate the pumps at the console.

This event will happen after a phone call to tell the operator to do it – this phone call will arrive very soon prior to any action from any authority happening.

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hell, why not ship the lot to thredbo?

would keep down the tourists.

bd84 said :

If all the polar bears are going to drown, I’ll offer to house one and I can ride him to work. Anyone who gets in my way, I’ll be teaching my bear to attack.

You need two – one to ride to work and the other to eat burglars while you’re out.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:20 am 13 Aug 08

It’s not an issue of viscosity, with ethanol it’s about energy density (how many joules of energy are contained in a given volume of fuel at standard temperature and pressure). Thus when ethanol burns it releases slightly less energy to the engine. On some cars the result will be unnoticeable, on others you may notice a difference.

The higher octane fuels are a bit different in that because of the chemical composition they are more resistant to pre-detonation, and so higher compression and more aggressive spark timing can be used (typically for higher performance engines). Many newer cars have knock sensors, and are able to advance spark timing for better performance (and perhaps slightly better economy) if they sense higher octane fuel through lower rates of engine knocking. Commercially I believe higher octane fuels tend to have more in the way of fuel system detergents also, so your engine internals are cleaner (less carbon and other residues).

The best thing to do is try it out. The fuels work differently on different cars. For example, my Holden V8 runs measurably better (and gets better economy) on premium 98 octance, whereas my 4 cyl runabout doesn’t seem to notice the difference, so gets fed regular 91 octane ULP.

I would mind harnessing up a few bears for the trip to work…. and parking becomes free, because I can’t see the inspector puting a ticket on him.

If all the polar bears are going to drown, I’ll offer to house one and I can ride him to work. Anyone who gets in my way, I’ll be teaching my bear to attack.

Felix the Cat7:52 pm 12 Aug 08

Pesty said :

chaton said :

I find it annoying how the stations put up in big flashy writing the price of the ethanol petrol (the cheapest), get you in there and then there is only one pump for this type of petrol, so you end up spending 5 c more per litre anyway…

Actually I heard on a motoring programme that although the ethonol blend fuel costs less per litre, it has a lower viscosity and so you use more, hence the savings are cancelled out. I have also heard that the vortex stuff works the oposite way as it has a higher viscosity, to the point that it works out cheaper? Anyone else heard this or maybe proven / disproven the theories?

I have heard the same as well (regarding Ethanol) and indeed experienced a fuel economy decrease in my car (Ford Laser).

NRMA has some more info about it along with comments from other motorists – http://www.mynrmacommunity.com/motoring/2008/03/11/ethanol-in-petrol/

It could be a genuine fault too. Most modern multiproduct bowsers have one large pump per type of fuel. If that goes tits up then you loose every hose providing that product. Considering Caltex Kaleen is an indipendant it might be a bit harder for them to get someone in to fix it compared to a company run site.

The easy way to tell if it is a central pump type system is to listen to the bowser. If it is the type where all you hear is the fuel flowing and the numbers ticking over then it is a central pump. If you can hear the pump then each bowser has it’s own pump.

I drove past this morning, a petrol tanker was parked there. I assume delivering more fuel.

The sentence is clearly talking about polar bear fur not polar bears.

If as it turns out, you are all being funny…no that can’t be it.

I don’t think I can bear it any more….

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy4:00 pm 12 Aug 08

It should be very clear…

didn’t you know this… its bare (bear) fact!

Facinating. If polar bears are transparent, that explains why I didn’t see the hoards of bears that inhabit the region…

That’s because they are white and therefore camoflagued

No they aren’t.

“Polar bear fur consists of a layer of dense underfur and an outer layer of guard hairs, which appear white to tan but are actually transparent.”

I was riding in the snow for an hour on Sunday. On the federal highway…

Didn’t see any polar bears though.

Aurelius said :

p1 said :

Screw the polar bears, I just want it to be safer for me when I am riding my motorbike.

Polar bears are a hazard when you’re riding a motorbike???

It’s a bear faced lie

p1 said :

Screw the polar bears, I just want it to be safer for me when I am riding my motorbike.

Polar bears are a hazard when you’re riding a motorbike???

glasscentralcanberra said :

Hmmm, well at Giralang yesterday the Premium and Unleaded were both on the same price….so what the hell does does that mean?

The end of the world…. There the signs you need to be careful of!!!
LOL Jks

glasscentralcanberra said :

Hmmm, well at Giralang yesterday the Premium and Unleaded were both on the same price….so what the hell does does that mean?

That means the petrol station is gouging and should be shot.

…or something like that.

glasscentralcanberra2:14 pm 12 Aug 08

Hmmm, well at Giralang yesterday the Premium and Unleaded were both on the same price….so what the hell does does that mean?

vg said :

Er but yes, but believe what you want

Note I used the word “negligible” – temperature does affect the density of liquids, but for practical purposes unless you are talking about 100 deg C + difference in temperature, the difference is pretty minimal. Even if you have a 20 deg difference between night and day temps of the fuel tanks, you are still below 2% difference in densities. So, yup, I am sticking with believing in what I originally wrote.

Screw the polar bears, I just want it to be safer for me when I am riding my motorbike.

🙂

Er but yes, but believe what you want

Not sure that this sentence means exactly, but I suspect that the temp of the undergound fuel tanks that the fuel is being pumped from would only vary a degree or so between midday mid-summer and mid night, mid winter, so the whole arguement is a little pointless.

And the government should up fuel tax to the point that people stop buying it.

NoAddedMSG said :

vg said :

If you genuinely want to save money around these parts buy your petrol late on a Tues/Wed evening when it nice and cold. Something to do with the exapnding/contracting volume of petrol according to heat and you have the cheaper prices as well.

Er, sorry, but no. This only really applies to gasses under low pressure, the effect of temperature on liquids is negligible.

Er but yes, but believe what you want

Oh and its not viscosity but energy value you need to worry about

My gripe with ULP vs PULP pricing is that before oil prices started their huge uprise the difference between the two was about 5c a litre. Now all other things being equal and the volume of PULP being refined and Super no longer being refined, I would of expected the differential to stay about the same or even decrease over time.

Yet its increased.

Its not like the refineries can claim that the input costs for PULP have increased more than ULP – its the same oil (or TAPIS crude) So either the refineries are totally incompetent and they can’t make more of something without it being more expensive to do so (and for the economists – the opportunity cost of not making a cheaper product are what?) or there is a bit of gouging going on.

As for Pesty above – assuming that your car/driving means you get greater fuel economy from PULP then using ULP or ULP ethanol blend, then yes cost per 100km traveled may well make PULP cheaper to run. There are more factors than just what you fill up with though.

chaton said :

I find it annoying how the stations put up in big flashy writing the price of the ethanol petrol (the cheapest), get you in there and then there is only one pump for this type of petrol, so you end up spending 5 c more per litre anyway…

Actually I heard on a motoring programme that although the ethonol blend fuel costs less per litre, it has a lower viscosity and so you use more, hence the savings are cancelled out. I have also heard that the vortex stuff works the oposite way as it has a higher viscosity, to the point that it works out cheaper? Anyone else heard this or maybe proven / disproven the theories?

caf said :

Madman: The excise is 38.1 c/L, so at current retail prices that’s significantly less than 39% (as the graph you linked to shows, in fact).

For those interested in the temperature issue, for gasoline a rule of thumb is that the density goes down by about 0.5% for every 5 degree rise in temperature. So not much.

Sorry I was only guessing from late data.

Kaleen this and Kaleen that? If you never stray out of your home suburb – as it sounds from your whine – what on earth do you need a car for?

Madman: The excise is 38.1 c/L, so at current retail prices that’s significantly less than 39% (as the graph you linked to shows, in fact).

For those interested in the temperature issue, for gasoline a rule of thumb is that the density goes down by about 0.5% for every 5 degree rise in temperature. So not much.

Mælinar – *spoiler alert* I’ve seen S04E13 said :

An insider might ask about the refinery margins (which are omitted from the caltex pdf document), but that would be explainable by a much more complex graph.

Wow!!! If you’re going into that then… yeh- wow!
But if you were going into that breadown you’d need to go into the retail breakdown, the transport breakdown, then the tax breakdown. that’s way too much to comprehend.

But within the refinery margins you could have such things as:
distribution
product
state fee’s
feedstock
operational charges
retailing

You could go further and breakdown the product fees to each fuel component but that’d be way to silly for this sort of conversation!

Mælinar - *spoiler alert* I've seen S04E1310:54 am 12 Aug 08

That just means ULP is going the way of PULP mechanism. Same argument stands but the situation is much more dire.

I heard a rumour that in the middle east and in russia they are pumping more saltwater than fuel, and have been for a long time.

And yes, I believe the Liberal Government had a major hand in covering up the true situation.

why is my previous comment being moderated?

maelinar wrote: natural price cycle

what’s ‘natural’ about it?? – it is a conspired cycle; seems to be no reason why there is a ‘cycle’ for petrol, while other processed and manufactured goods – beer, milk, bread, yoghurt, meat – are consistently priced across the week.

can’t see it changing, just wanted to rant.

as for ‘out of order’ signs on pumps, would it make a difference to anyone’s psyche to have ‘out of use’ signs instead?

Mælinar - *spoiler alert* I've seen S04E1310:50 am 12 Aug 08

tapis… that was it.

An insider might ask about the refinery margins (which are omitted from the caltex pdf document), but that would be explainable by a much more complex graph.

I’ve said too much.

Mælinar – *spoiler alert* I’ve seen S04E13 said :

@Sammy – you will probably now note that service stations do not advertise premium ULP prices on their billboards – so they don’t bait advertise.

You’re a bit mixed up with this comment – they’re advertising ULP and shutting down the ULP pumps. Advertising the ULP price but not supplying it. – Thats what I gather from Sammy’s comments

Mælinar – *spoiler alert* I’ve seen S04E13 said :

Irrespective of this point is the global price index (or at least the ‘somewhere in Singapore fuel index, the name of which I can’t remember offhand’), which also influences price spikes but I’ll not talk about.

Tapis, which it doesn’t always influence price spikes, but does index it occasionly.

http://www.caltex.com.au/assets/pricing_plain/pump_price.pdf

This link gives you a rough idea about the whole price breakdown and shows the price of fuel going up and all of the margins staying relitevely the same.

=-)

Mælinar - *spoiler alert* I've seen S04E1310:40 am 12 Aug 08

Oh, yeah and what noaddedmsg said about petrol is correct.

Temperature, ambience and gaia in general heavily affect the refining process, at the point where they are breaking the hydrocarbon chains into fuel grade material, and certainly not when it is in an insulated tank underground where the temperature remains reasonably constant, even if your surroundings are whiter than a dentists teeth.

Mælinar - *spoiler alert* I've seen S04E1310:37 am 12 Aug 08

@Sammy – you will probably now note that service stations do not advertise premium ULP prices on their billboards – so they don’t bait advertise.

Most of the posters are nearly on the right track, nearly.

PULP is heavily influenced by the natural price cycle, the one that has the tues/wed cheap spot, and the friday/sat/sun expensive bit. Irrespective of this point is the global price index (or at least the ‘somewhere in Singapore fuel index, the name of which I can’t remember offhand’), which also influences price spikes but I’ll not talk about.

While fuel is trucked out from the refineries regularly, it doesn’t always arrive on a tues/wed – infact I’d hazard a guess that the refineries give their truckies a midweek weekend break on… lemme guess… tuesday and wednesday ? (not necessarily so, but functions as a nice conspiracy theory).

Fuel companies that are on a weekly cycle of refuelling then, will purchase fuel that arrives on a Saturday (in the middle of the peak), but cannot afford to sell it during the trough on tues/wed because it is retailing for less than they purchased it for.

Notwithstanding they could simply sell it at the price they want to sell it for, but then the ACCC would be on their backs – while their argument is as Thumper implied, toothless (because they will simply prove that they were selling it for what they paid for it), does anybody seriously think that companies want a Government organisation scrutinising them ?

So they choose to not sell it, its easier. The ACCC will get requested (and has probably already provided the report), why this is happening, and the toothless tiger will appear perplexed that companies are not selling their wares to willing (if not captive) customers, but indeed be powerless to act. They cannot force a company to sell you something at less than what they paid for it, no matter which way you want to string the sentence.

If the ACCC were to act in this instance, all they would be doing is generating more work for the ACCC as detailed above, and more complexly they would most probably end up encompassing individual retail outlets instead of the major company lines (try to drive to another service station for PULP on tues/wed and you are simply wasting your existing tank of petrol).

Actually I believe it still goes:

Refined Petrol 40%
Excise Tax 39%
Retail and Freight Margins 11%
GST 10%

vg said :

If you genuinely want to save money around these parts buy your petrol late on a Tues/Wed evening when it nice and cold. Something to do with the exapnding/contracting volume of petrol according to heat and you have the cheaper prices as well.

Er, sorry, but no. This only really applies to gasses under low pressure, the effect of temperature on liquids is negligible.

Sammy said :

Actually, it is illegal to advertise a product for sale if you are not able to provide a reasonable supply of it. It’s called bait advertising.

And I guess it’s even worse if you do have a supply of it, but you’re withholding it.

Simple – leave one ULP pump open – you’re still supplying what’s advertised- I’m sure this person as the said station above didn’t check every single pump and every single pump on the other side. My station does it usually but there are always one or two open.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

The trouble is that servos make very little on petrol (in the order of a couple of cents per litre), and make high margin on goods sold in store.

I have heard that they usually profit $0.03-$0.06 per litre.
Fill your tank up with 60 litres at $1.50 per litre and they will only profit $1.80 at the lower profit and $3.60 at the 6cents a litre profit. The rest goes to taxes, government charges/road fees and the wholesale product.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:18 am 12 Aug 08

The trouble is that servos make very little on petrol (in the order of a couple of cents per litre), and make high margin on goods sold in store.

I used to work in a servo years ago, and what surprised me was the amount of extra goods and services people would buy (drinks, chips, chocolates, car washes, oil, fuel system cleaner, smokes, etc), when blind freddy could see that these items were priced significantly higher than elsewhere.

I suspect the ‘out of order’ on fuel pumps is more to do with making people come back on Thursdays (pay day for many) when they have more money and are more willing to buy extra goods and services. When I worked the servo, petrol profit didn’t vary much (even though price did), because the price we were charged by the distributor varied so often. Servos pretty much have to follow the distributor – if they weren’t also involved in pumps being ‘out of order’, I’d be a bit surprised.

Actually, it is illegal to advertise a product for sale if you are not able to provide a reasonable supply of it. It’s called bait advertising.

And I guess it’s even worse if you do have a supply of it, but you’re withholding it.

That’s what I want a source for Madman, either way.

Plus it just seems like such a beat up. I approach things in life with a very sceptical mindset. When it comes to RiotACT posts attacking a SPECIFIC business entity, I ramp that sceptical mindset up to its fullest.

Considering that stations turn off pumps for many reasons including controlling traffic and smoothing flow, low tanks, line of site issues, etc. Considering that stations make money from the product in the store. Considering the potential loss of good will. Considering that its usually not that far to the next station.

It just seems hard to believe. It would have to be a pretty decent margin on the Vortex blend.

I myself don’t know how this works to benefit the petrol station.

You’re paying for something thats more expensive, which they have to pay for at the more expensive rate then usual ULP to supply it….

Therefore the same amount of money is being exchanged.

In theory

ULP Standard
Station buys 10L at $10
Station sells 10L at $15 profiting $5

ULP Premium
Station buys 10L at $20
Station sells 10L at $25 profiting $5

That’s how I see it – they’re buying something more expensive and selling it at the margin to consumers.

I’m not too fussed with this as I only fill with premium.

If you genuinely want to save money around these parts buy your petrol late on a Tues/Wed evening when it nice and cold. Something to do with the exapnding/contracting volume of petrol according to heat and you have the cheaper prices as well. Throw in a 4c off voucher and Bob’s your uncle.

If what you want isn’t available in Kaleen its a 5 min drive to Dickson or Gungahlin. Vote with your feet

johnboy said :

jakez said :

Also, how does this grand conspiracy work for the benefit of Kaleen Caltex?

Sorry for the multiple posts.

Because the petrol they keep selling is more expensive.

They really should be required to sell the vortex for the price of the advertised ULP or it’s misleading advertising for mine.

If they have a ULP price up then I’ll agree (if it is as the op suggests). I’m off to find someone who works at a petrol station.

That is of course predicated on the idea that there is a greater margin on Vortex. Does anyone have a source to back this up? Greater cost to us doesn’t necessarily mean greater profit for them don’t forget.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy9:27 am 12 Aug 08

Go to another servo, there are lots of them in Canberra.

I generally fill up on Tuesday or Wednesday evenings, and my gripe is that the Premium98 pump is sometimes out of order (if I have the V8 for a fill).

I find it annoying how the stations put up in big flashy writing the price of the ethanol petrol (the cheapest), get you in there and then there is only one pump for this type of petrol, so you end up spending 5 c more per litre anyway…

jakez said :

Also, how does this grand conspiracy work for the benefit of Kaleen Caltex?

Sorry for the multiple posts.

Because the petrol they keep selling is more expensive.

They really should be required to sell the vortex for the price of the advertised ULP or it’s misleading advertising for mine.

Can anyone pinpoint when this ‘out of order’ phenomenon/rort began? It seems to be quite recent, ie, last 5-10 years.

Also, how does this grand conspiracy work for the benefit of Kaleen Caltex?

Sorry for the multiple posts.

Thumper, I thought the ACCC was a paper tiger?

If refusing to sell ULP is a crime then shame on this country. You have no right to their property so suck it up and go to a different petrol station and watch the market place work.

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