No news on GDE speed limit front

Classified said :

The idea is that people should be overtaking on the right, and not on the left.

Use the left hand lane if you’re not overtaking, it makes it easier and safer.

Yeah yeah I get what you’re saying, but I’m asking why? If people need to overtake me by breaking the law (i.e. speeding), then I’d argue that they’ve waived their right to dictate which lane I drive in for their convenience.

chewy14 said :

No Ex-Vectis,
what I am saying is that the people who think that driving slower on these roads, necessarily makes them safer drivers are wrong.
Variation from the mean speed of traffic is a risk factor.
If speed limits are set correctly then this usually isn’t a problem, but that’s a big IF.

Surely you’re implying that the speed limit should be decreased? 😉

luther_bendross said :

For another question/social experiment: If I’m going under the speed limit, why must I keep left? Of course if I’m in a zone >80km/h or there’s a sign telling me to then I will, but in zones <80km/h, there's no legal reason for me to keep left.

Case: The northbound stretch of the Monaro between the speed camera and AMC is an 80km/h zone. I'd estimate I'm overtaken by 90% of drivers along that stretch. If I sit on 80km/h in the right lane, I'm breaking no laws (happy to be corrected) but am abused frequently for doing so.

The idea is that people should be overtaking on the right, and not on the left. By traveling below the prevailing traffic speed in the right hand lane (and not overtaking) you are creating a situation where people will overtake on the left rather than the right, and thus traffic starts weaving across lanes.

Use the left hand lane if you’re not overtaking, it makes it easier and safer.

For another question/social experiment: If I’m going under the speed limit, why must I keep left? Of course if I’m in a zone >80km/h or there’s a sign telling me to then I will, but in zones <80km/h, there's no legal reason for me to keep left.

Case: The northbound stretch of the Monaro between the speed camera and AMC is an 80km/h zone. I'd estimate I'm overtaken by 90% of drivers along that stretch. If I sit on 80km/h in the right lane, I'm breaking no laws (happy to be corrected) but am abused frequently for doing so.

There was a cool experiment done in Europe. Open the road with no posted limits, take away your outliers and everyone else will tell you exactly what the limit should be.

HenryBG said :

And what’s more, the built-up frustration of being caught in unnecessary congestion caused by the point-point cameras will lead to them being less safe and more likely to speed by more km/h than they usually would once out the other side.

And my rates are paying for this crap,

So your rates are paying for these machines which have been referred to earlier as being “revenue raising”? Even blind freddy could see that a speed camera pay’s for itself plus some. What’s the issue with the government “raising revenue”? What do you think payed for that nice new road that cuts out a dozen sets of traffic lights and a half hour of congestion on your morning commute. It wasn’t the tooth fairy.

As for travelling a bit under the limit, why can’t people choose to do it? I’ve got some old cars that are much more comfortable at 70 than they are revving their nuts off at 80, and my truck fully loaded would take half the length of the GDE to get up to 80, assuming I haven’t done a precautionary braking maneuver for speedy gonzales swerving about intimidating other motorists in order to save himself 5 hours per year (no doubt 5 hours he would have spent playing with himself).

Apart from the odd exception like Wentworth Avenue we have some of the best roads around. Sit back and enjoy the drive. If 90 seconds a day is so precious to you then maybe you need to think about living a bit closer to work.

stormboy said :

Your table is very pretty but how on earth can you compare Brindy Rd and Narrabundah Lane with major arterials carrying many thousands of vehicles every day??

I have no problem with 80 or 90 or 100 on the GDE.

I think that’s the point of his table…

OK so the people who feel that safe driving is driving 10 km/h under the limit regardless of conditions. Fine do that, just stay in the left lane and don’t obstruct traffic flow. But driving 10km/h under the limit has nothing to do with being a safe and/or good driver. I see plenty of elderly doing that, because thats probably their personal limit. Which is good to see, and thats the safe speed for them to drive at.

The issue with the GDE is not about saving a few seconds. Its about safety. A lot of people drive to the road conditions. I know I do and one of those conditions is the speed limit, however, if the speed limit is lower than what the road can sustain you are going to get a far larger number of speeding drivers. So it seems reasonable to me by raising the speed limit, you’ll get more drivers doing a consistant similar speed, thus resulting in less crashes. Yep you can argue they’ll still speed regardless of the limit, but surely less would speed.

The stubborn attitude that people are breaking the law so fine them just doesn’t work. If a road has a high incident of speeding, then looking at the speed limit is just as appropriate action as is speed cameras. I, like most people would have no issue with speed cameras on roads where the speed limit is set to match the road conditions in dry clear weather.

Also speeding on main arterial roads to me should be a far lower priority than, speeding in suburban streets, which is far more dangerous and likely to kill someone. We just need common sense applied and this tit for tat argument or those who think speeders are always wrong and book them with those less conservative on the matter won’t achieve anything. At least the OP has put effort into fixing an issue with constructive table of information. He is trying to present some facts.

While I think the GDE should have its speed limits raised there is a stretch of road at Erindale that needs the speed limit dropped before someone gets killed just near the woolies servo. There needs to be a consistent standard applied, because while everyone should pay attention to the limit signs, its not going to happen 100% of the time ever, regardless of what some my think or say, so if the speed limits are more consistently applied, you’ll have a far less likelyhood of speeding IMO.

p1 said :

luther_bendross said :

Do you also throw your torque wrench around and wonder why you’re snapping bolts? Using a GPS to measure speedo accuracy is fallible on so many levels. You’d be better off using a piece of wool on your windscreen and measuring the angle it falls at.

Why all the hate on GPSs? I’m gonna have to get myself a bit of wood for my windscreen!

Not sure why, GPS speed calculation when travelling in a linear instead of rotation manner is very accurate. While they are only accurate to 15m, the difference in accuracy between two points in a short space of time wouldn’t be great. And when you take enough readings, enough times in different conditions, the errors would average out.

No Ex-Vectis,
what I am saying is that the people who think that driving slower on these roads, necessarily makes them safer drivers are wrong.
Variation from the mean speed of traffic is a risk factor.
If speed limits are set correctly then this usually isn’t a problem, but that’s a big IF.

p1 said :

luther_bendross said :

Do you also throw your torque wrench around and wonder why you’re snapping bolts? Using a GPS to measure speedo accuracy is fallible on so many levels. You’d be better off using a piece of wool on your windscreen and measuring the angle it falls at.

Why all the hate on GPSs? I’m gonna have to get myself a bit of wood for my windscreen!

Sorry to do the multi-post thing; but this is a slightly different subject to the speed thing.

A few years ago I worked on some automated test s/w for GPS based system’s and so got a quick ramp up on how they work etc. One of the areas was speed measuring – how the GPS system determines speed.

I won’t bore all with the details, but when travelling on a flat surface (IE. Not going up/down steep hills) and the area doesn’t have hills either side (or tall buildings) the GPS speed reading is very very accurate – normally <1% accurate. Reason is that the positional error is constant over small periods of time and the sample rates for determining speeds are smaller still.

The only time a GPS speed reading is not highly accurate is when it is search/reposition mode (IE. It is getting conflicting satellite readings – signal reflections from tall buildings and/or close hills – or is working with a reduced number of signals – satellite's blocked by buildings, hills, thick cloud etc.) or accelerating/decelerating very quickly.

HenryBG said :

The Traineediplomat said :

Surely driving under the speed LIMIT indicates that I am a good driver,

Nope. It means you’re an inconsiderate driver.

chewy14 said :

The people who say that driving 10km’s under the speed limit is fine are adding to the risk of driving.

These are pretty scarey comments. When you are in charge of a vehicle the person who is ultimately responsible for that vehicle is you. As such, it is you as the driver, who should be fully aware of all that is going on around the vehicle and be constantly assessing dangers and potential dangers. Chewy14, are you saying that you drive half asleep so that a quickly approaching danger takes you by suprise? What if it is a stupid 5 year old, with idiot parents, who’s wandered off and onto a road (its not likely, but most accident’s are caused by things happening that are unlikely)? Bottom line is that a speed limit is just that; a speed limit. Not a maximum, not a required average, but a limit. It is the speed which people, skilled in such matters (or not, in the case of the ACT Roads folk, who seem to use random numbers when deciding speed limits), assess as being the best compromise between the risks and the need to get folk from A to B as quickly as possible. But remember, even if we think they are damned idiots there may be a real and valid reason for setting GDE to 80KPH which is why I will abide by it (and be the slowest person it seems!).

luther_bendross said :

Do you also throw your torque wrench around and wonder why you’re snapping bolts? Using a GPS to measure speedo accuracy is fallible on so many levels. You’d be better off using a piece of wool on your windscreen and measuring the angle it falls at.

Why all the hate on GPSs? I’m gonna have to get myself a bit of wood for my windscreen!

chewy14 said :

Grail said :

I’m dead certain that point to point cameras will not stop the idiots from driving dangerously.

So what are they there for then?

So govco can be seen to be doing something.

Erg0 said :

Cool story, but it doesn’t really relate to whether people like your sample moron will be caught by point-to-point cameras.

That was to #62, not the above post.

luther_bendross said :

You Sir, are a clown. The speed limit is just that: a limit. Not a minimum, not an average, but an upper limit above which you’re (probably and arguably) driving in an unsafe manner. I pay attention to the speed limits, generally flicking the cruise control on 2-5km/h under the limit. As such I get abused, flipped off, tailgated, et al. I then arrive at my destination 2min after said lunatics. I have a job with enough inherent risk and danger that I can justify. What I couldn’t justify is injuring myself or someone else on the way home to my wife through arrogant stupidity.

I have heard of people being booked for slow driving at the officers discretion, did a quick search and this was the first result: http://www.theleader.com.au/news/local/news/general/fined-for-slow-driving/456549.aspx

Cool story, but it doesn’t really relate to whether people like your sample moron will be caught by point-to-point cameras.

How happy am I that I found this being discussed on RA!!

I was on the GDE on Saturday, coming back from Epic to Tuggs after hearing that it had all opened.

Now, I consider myself to be Mr Boredom and a ‘goody two shoes’ on the road. If there is a speed sign that says 60MPH (road works) I’ll stick to it – even if it’s just that some lazy roady has left it there, thats not my place to pick and choose which signs I adhere to.

In my view, speed kills; faster you go the more risk simple as that. However, you obviously cannot have a blanket speed limit of 30KPH on all roads so that risks are reduced to a bare minimum, you have to weigh up the risks/dangers and compromise. Hence the differing limits on differing types of road. So, like everyone else, I want to join the growing exhasperation about GDE being set to 80KPH!!! It just makes no sense whatsoever. How can roads such as Sulwood Drive be of a same speed limit as the GDE???? It makes no sense at all.

I must admit I’ve not read all comments yet (I’m about to) as I just wanted to get this off my chest – Who decided GDE must be limited to 80KPH? Is that person a bloody idiot who is obviously in a job that way above them? Why should we tax payers pay for such shoddy service? The person who set GDE at 80KPH has probably sown a seed for a high accident rate as you will get dick heads, like me, who religiously stick to 80KPH to ensure a clean license and so cause a moving obstruction to those travelling at 100KPH which would probably be the more correct speed. Does make me angry stuff like that.

Grail said :

I’m dead certain that point to point cameras will not stop the idiots from driving dangerously.

So what are they there for then?

Grail said :

As I was driving, a 1-tonne ute with a trailer caught up to me (just over the hill from the War Memorial) and tailgated all the way to the roundabout at ADFA. At this roundabout he tried to overtake me….he couldn’t overtake me on the roundabout.

By your own admission, you are not only driving at close to 10km/h below the speed, but you appear to be gleefully obstructing people who try to pass you.

Typical Canberra driver.

arb said :

HenryBG said :

How about the government eliminates real crime, first, before trying to criminalise even more people with excessive regulation of how we go about our lives?

1. Speeding isn’t a criminal offense
2. Don’t speed, and you won’t get booked… it’s not rocket surgery

Speed cameras are a tax on the stupid. Would you rather they were abolished and other taxes raised for everyone?

Speeding tickets are a gateway to involvement with the criminal justice system.

There’s no connection between speeding and any moral or ethical principles.
This vast – and growing – infrastructure devoted to handing out speeding tickets is simply a symptom of over-regulation by a bloated government intent on revenue-raising to fund its unnecessary and wasteful activities.

As many other have noted the difference in time is negligible, so it seems what it realy comes down to is enlightenment and impatience. It sounds like a lot of people need to learn that cars are not toys and the road is not a playground, you simply get from A to B as safely (not fast as possible) as possible. Just because the limit is 80 or 100 doesn’t entitle you to reach that limit if you are going to run into the back of or even tailgate another driver.

A lot of motorists would say to cyclists that they should be cornered for their safety above all else even if they have right of way over a car, the same applies here, safety should be prioritized over simple impatience. I will say it is a slight annoyance when both lanes are “blocked” (fancy that, other cars on the road) by slower cars, however it is far less annoying and dangerous than cars tailgating. Some have pointed out the dangers of cars going slower than the average speed, however the only reason this causes a danger is because of the cars that will run up behind them.

As long as people keep concentrate and keep a safe distance (rather than constantly trying to do the maximum speed allowed) then they will be fine.

Classified said :

Do you really think the people who are alert for speed cameras and vans are going to be caught by something as simplistic as point to point cameras?

Yes.

Let me relate to you a little story. I was driving out to Costco (not a member, wanted to check it out) from Dickson. Along the way I happened to drive along the road from the War Memorial to the Airport (Fairbairn Avenue). The road is signposted 60km/h all the way to the Monaro Highway, except for a short stretch just after RMC.

As I was driving, a 1-tonne ute with a trailer caught up to me (just over the hill from the War Memorial) and tailgated all the way to the roundabout at ADFA. At this roundabout he tried to overtake me, but between his slow approach speed, the low agility of his truck and the extra weight of the trailer, he couldn’t overtake me on the roundabout. So he continued to tailgate me (all I could see out the back window of my Jazz was the truck’s grille). Then at the traffic lights on the intersection with Majura Road, this driver partially overtook me in order to hurl abuse — his slowing down and abusing me meaning he had to stop for the lights which were now changing.

Some people will not slow down, even with other cars blocking their way. They apparently feel that I am doing them a disservice by sticking to the speed limit.

I’m looking forward to the introduction of point to point cameras, no doubt we’ll see much more advertising from that ambulance-chaser that advertises here. If he can get people off dangerous drunk driving, no doubt he’ll be able to get people off speeding when caught by point to point cameras.

For the record, I’m thoroughly enjoying my new Jazz: I stick the cruise control on at 80km/h entering Glenloch Interchange, and cruise all the way up to Ginninderra drive. Along the way I’ll see quality driving such as people overtaking trucks only to zip in front of the truck with brakes on in order to make the exit onto Ginninnderra Drive.

I’m dead certain that point to point cameras will not stop the idiots from driving dangerously.

HenryBG said :

How about the government eliminates real crime, first, before trying to criminalise even more people with excessive regulation of how we go about our lives?

1. Speeding isn’t a criminal offense
2. Don’t speed, and you won’t get booked… it’s not rocket surgery

Speed cameras are a tax on the stupid. Would you rather they were abolished and other taxes raised for everyone?

creative_canberran said :

2-5km/hr under the speed limit? Would love to know why you do that.

Ummm…
a) I don’t want a speeding ticket
b) Canberra’s not a big place where 2-5km/h is going to make a significant impact
c) I like driving like everyone else on the road is trying to kill me
d) If the limit is a guide to road safety (as yes, that’s the basis of this thread), then 2-5km/h gives me an extra safety margin

creative_canberran said :

I’ve used GPS to calculate the accuracy of my speedo

Do you also throw your torque wrench around and wonder why you’re snapping bolts? Using a GPS to measure speedo accuracy is fallible on so many levels. You’d be better off using a piece of wool on your windscreen and measuring the angle it falls at.

Classified said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

milkman said :

I do what most people do: drive at a speed I like and brake for the speed cameras and vans.

Which is why we need point to point cameras.

Do you really think the people who are alert for speed cameras and vans are going to be caught by something as simplistic as point to point cameras?

And what’s more, the built-up frustration of being caught in unnecessary congestion caused by the point-point cameras will lead to them being less safe and more likely to speed by more km/h than they usually would once out the other side.

And my rates are paying for this crap, while violent thugs are treated to extremely short stints in a 5-star resort on the rare occasions when the sanction against their activities exceeds anything more than a bit of stern word from a wussy judge.

How about the government eliminates real crime, first, before trying to criminalise even more people with excessive regulation of how we go about our lives?

colourful sydney racing identity said :

milkman said :

I do what most people do: drive at a speed I like and brake for the speed cameras and vans.

Which is why we need point to point cameras.

Do you really think the people who are alert for speed cameras and vans are going to be caught by something as simplistic as point to point cameras?

arb said :

I’ve used my GPS to calculate the error in my speedo and the speed check radar/sign things you get in some roadworks areas seem to agree with it (and I’d wager they’re accurate). Furthermore I’ve driven past numerous police and speed cameras using my gps calibrated speeds and have not once had a ticket.

Generally they are good. Although I did have one tell me I was doing 160km/h a couple of months ago… (I might not have been strickly sticking to the limit, but I wasn’t 120km/h over).

Sgt.Bungers said :

Catch up to someone going slower than you, stay back, don’t tailgate, pass when safe. Tailgate or otherwise intimidate the person into speeding up, and you’re the one being inconsiderate.

I agree, with the corollary being that if somebody catches up with you from behind, they are clearly travelling faster than you are and you should do your best to let them pass, as is done in the country by people who are considerate towards each other.

The Traineediplomat said :

Surely driving under the speed LIMIT indicates that I am a good driver,

HenryBG said :

Nope. It means you’re an inconsiderate driver.

I could not disagree with you more. The biggest killer on our roads is over confident drivers. Overconfidence leads to riskier maneuvers, not double checking at intersections, laid back and lazy driving.

This is proven given that learners, arguably the most timid and hence cautions drivers on the road, are statistically the safest group of drivers. No, it’s not because they have a fully licenced driver next to them… when that fully licenced middle aged driver gets behind the wheel themselves, they’re statistically more likely to cause a crash than a learner driver.

P platers on the other hand, the most overconfident drivers on the road are the most likely to cause a crash.

If a person wants to take things reasonably slow and cautiously, you should tip your hat to them as they’re not driving outside their ability. Note that reasonably does not mean 40 km/h on the parkway on a Sunday afternoon. But I’m struggling to think of any situation in Canberra where if a person wanted to travel at 10 km/h under the speed limit in good conditions whilst keeping left, could be called “inconsiderate”.

HenryBG said :

Ergo, the posted speed limits are very clearly not a valid indication of the safe driving speed.

You’re right, but they’re far from being a minimum speed either. Catch up to someone going slower than you, stay back, don’t tailgate, pass when safe. Tailgate or otherwise intimidate the person into speeding up, and you’re the one being inconsiderate.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

milkman said :

I do what most people do: drive at a speed I like and brake for the speed cameras and vans.

Which is why we need point to point cameras.

No, this is why we we need reasonable speed limits that are universally respected by the 87th percentile of drivers rather than blunt force enforcement of a limt developed by a road safety “industry” with a vested interest in lobbying governments for increased restrictions.

JC said :

SGT, in your table you have forget one very important factor which is traffic volumes. Like it or not higher traffic volumes result in lower speed limits.

True, and lower forced lower traffic speeds in peak periods through variable speed limits and strict enforcement has been proven to increase the efficiency of the road and reduce stop start traffic. That’s not what we’re seeing here though. If the usual limit on the GDE was 100 km/h, lowered to 80 km/h in peak hours and enforced with P2P cameras, I wouldn’t be arguing.

It’s well established that a speed limit needs to reflect the maximum safe speed in good weather in free flowing, light traffic conditions. If we were to set speed limits based on traffic speeds are like in peak periods, we’d see speed limits of 60 km/h on Adelaide Ave, 40 or 60 on the Parkway. 40 km/h on the M5 in Sydney.

Recently I contacted Roads ACT asking why the speed limit on Marcus Clarke Street is still 60 km/h, when it’s in Canberra’s CBD and is a high pedestrian activity area. Their response was because it’s a major collector road, the speed limit needed to stay 60 km/h to avoid motorists exceeding it outside of peak hours when there’s less pedestrians about.

If this is the argument for keeping Marcus Clarke’s speed limit high by national and international standards… why doesn’t the same argument come into play with the GDE which has a very low speed limit by national and international standards?

Shadow Boxer said:

“The point to point cameras are going from the Barton highway to Belconnen way mid 2012. What this means is that traffic unconstrained by the cameras (because they missed the first one) will be merging with traffic travelling at 70 or less as people make doubly sure they don’t get a ticket. Kind of makes a mockery of your consistent speed limit argument.”

Where do you get this information that point to point cameras will go on the Barton Highway to Belconnen Way?

p1 said :

On a long straight flat road where you are trying to hold a constant speed, the average GPS will give a very good indication of the accuracy of your speedo.

+1

I’ve used my GPS to calculate the error in my speedo and the speed check radar/sign things you get in some roadworks areas seem to agree with it (and I’d wager they’re accurate). Furthermore I’ve driven past numerous police and speed cameras using my gps calibrated speeds and have not once had a ticket.

gooterz said :

Not everyone has cruise control.

Those that dont spend half the trip looking at their speedo, or speeding.

If this includes you, could you please go and hand back your licence, you should not be driving.

milkman said :

I do what most people do: drive at a speed I like and brake for the speed cameras and vans.

Which is why we need point to point cameras.

@HenryBG – very well said.

Grail said :

The GPS is not an accurate speed measuring device. It’s accurate to about 10m on a good day, so any measurement of speed is based on measurements of location that are up to 10m out of whack. At 90km/h you are doing about 30m/s, which means your GPS could actually be up to 1/3 incorrect.

At any particular point in time, the average GPS gives a reading which in out by between 1m and, say 30m. As you say, 10m is pretty normal, and GPSs conveniently give an estimate of error.

But this error is a point location error. When you are doing 100km/h on the highway, the GPS gives a speed based on the distance between your last known location, your current location, and the time between the two readings.

Again, for any single calculation, the results could vary massively. If both locations were out by 10m, and you had only really travelled 10m, then the GPS might thing you had moved 30m (10m actual plus 10m error at point A plus 10m error at point B) which would give a result 300% of your actual speed.

But this isn’t how GPSs usually work. Most modern GPSs get a position several times a second. They only update the speed reading on the screen every second, having averaged the speed over several position readings. The GPS is not like an old surveyer with a compass and tape. The error is not cumulative. The GPS does not add a 10m error at every reading from Charnwood to Kambah. It does not get to the end of a ten minute drive and be 10km out.

So the average speed on the screen is really very accurate.

What a GPS speed is not, is very responsive. In fact it is giving you a very accurate average speed for the last couple of seconds of driving. So if you are accelerating, or decelerating, it will be pretty useless.

On a long straight flat road where you are trying to hold a constant speed, the average GPS will give a very good indication of the accuracy of your speedo.

/Rant.

The Traineediplomat said :

Surely driving under the speed LIMIT indicates that I am a good driver,

Nope. It means you’re an inconsiderate driver.

Your previous comment where you revealed that you think there is some kind of connection between the posted speed limits and a safe driving speed also tends to support the point that you don’t know what you’re doing.

It’s pretty obvious that a safe driving speed varies considerably depending on the weather, the condition of the road, the amount of congestion, the technical state of the car and the skills of the driver.
As we all know, the posted speed limits do not vary.
Ergo, the posted speed limits are very clearly not a valid indication of the safe driving speed.

The people who say that driving 10km’s under the speed limit is fine are adding to the risk of driving.
There’s plenty of studies that show that deviation from the mean speed of traffic on a road is a big risk factor. Either higher or lower speeds.

ie. someone doing 60km/hr on a stretch where everyone else is doing 90km/hr may be just as dangerous as someone going 120km/hr.

zippyzippy said :

What about the noise for aranda folks, and also the argument that the speed limit changes a few times around there so best to keep it consistent 80?

Anyone Have any thoughts on the above yet?

Also, I have never heard anything about Point to point cameras going on the gde. You just mean that they might occasionally set up mobile cameras there right? I think that’s ok. regardless of if you like the speed limit or not it’s fair to occasionally have mobile speed cameras pop up anywhere – you need some level of enforcement, and you can’t just let one particular section be flaunted because people don’t like the limit.

The point to point cameras are going from the Barton highway to Belconnen way mid 2012. What this means is that traffic unconstrained by the cameras (because they missed the first one) will be merging with traffic travelling at 70 or less as people make doubly sure they don’t get a ticket. Kind of makes a mockery of your consistent speed limit argument.

I don’t think anyone has any sympathy for the Aranda folks, they would be better off campaigning for more trees to dilute the noise.

Your table is very pretty but how on earth can you compare Brindy Rd and Narrabundah Lane with major arterials carrying many thousands of vehicles every day??

I have no problem with 80 or 90 or 100 on the GDE.

zippyzippy said :

What about the noise for aranda folks, and also the argument that the speed limit changes a few times around there so best to keep it consistent 80?

Anyone Have any thoughts on the above yet?

Also, I have never heard anything about Point to point cameras going on the gde. You just mean that they might occasionally set up mobile cameras there right? I think that’s ok. regardless of if you like the speed limit or not it’s fair to occasionally have mobile speed cameras pop up anywhere – you need some level of enforcement, and you can’t just let one particular section be flaunted because people don’t like the limit.

SGT, in your table you have forget one very important factor which is traffic volumes. Like it or not higher traffic volumes result in lower speed limits. Though don’t think in the case volumes are why the road previously known as the GDE is 80km/h and agree with the sentiment that GDE is inconsistent compared with the rest of the main roads in Canberra.

What makes me cynical about this bit of road is the fact they were planning point to point speed camera’s well before the road was finished. Yes I know don’t speed and you don’t get busted (which is exactly what I do), but this road’s speed limit is a joke.

Erg0 said :

Wouldn’t a duel carriageway be a single lane with “One Way” signs pointing in both directions?

Erg0 said :

Wouldn’t a duel carriageway be a single lane with “One Way” signs pointing in both directions?

Never heard of a duel carriageway, but your explanation above would sure the hell create a duel.

Chop71 said :

William Hovell is dual for all but 500m (buggered if they could be bothered digging into the hill 2m for the last little bit.) Typical lazy Canberra road construction.

More like 3-4km, which is about half the road length.

It’s interesting, I passed a 3 car crash on the southbound side of the GDE about a month after it was fully opened (not that long ago really). Ambulances, fire engines, cops in attendance. And that was when the limit was 80 kph, as it still is currently. It was a clear, dry day and it was on a straight strech of the GDE. How they managed it is anyone’s guess! Though, I wonder if it would have been worse if 90 or 100…..?

lobster said :

I figure if you don’t have the skills to drive at the speed limit then you probably shouldn’t have a license.

If you feel the need to drive at 10kmh under the limit for no reason – then you probably aren’t very good at driving. Perhaps you could take some driving lessons or something?

No, if I feel the need to drive at 10km under the speed limit, you’ll have to deal with it. Legally. Surely driving under the speed LIMIT indicates that I am a good driver, not the “pffft I’ll make my own limit for this stretch because I’m a freaking superman driver” concept that you seem to have going on.

That all said I’m quite happy for the Sarge to continue his campaign showing why the limits around town may not be uniformly applied. Once it’s changed whether it’s up, down, sideways etc, then we can shout the sarge a banana daiquiri

Grail said :

The GPS is not an accurate speed measuring device. It’s accurate to about 10m on a good day, so any measurement of speed is based on measurements of location that are up to 10m out of whack. At 90km/h you are doing about 30m/s, which means your GPS could actually be up to 1/3 incorrect.

Oh absolutely.

The ADR as of 2006 requires accuracy to within + or – 10% (only for speeds above 40km/hr).

So at 80, that 8km/h and at 100, 10km/h inaccuracy. If the speedo is conservative, that’s great. But most states do apply penalties for speeding under 10km/h over the limit. In fact I was pinged years back for doing 8km/h over on the Monaro Highway.

So more than the exact figure of 7km/h I arrived at, it was knowing my speedo tends to be conservative that was the key based on repeated testing. Had the GPS indicated the speedo was underestimating speeds, I would have gone and have it checked professionally.

Grail said :

creative_canberran said :

I’ve used GPS to calculate the accuracy of my speedo: -7km/h was the result.

The GPS is not an accurate speed measuring device. It’s accurate to about 10m on a good day, so any measurement of speed is based on measurements of location that are up to 10m out of whack. At 90km/h you are doing about 30m/s, which means your GPS could actually be up to 1/3 incorrect.

A better way to calibrate your speedo is to find one of the 5km marked sections of road (Northbound on Tuggeranong Parkway, from the top of Oakey Hill down to the Cotter Road overpass is one such stretch) and time how long it takes you to travel the 5km when doing a consistent speed.

Travelling 5km at 100km/h should take 180 seconds on the dot. To calibrate, hold a steady speed and start timing when you cross the start line. At the stop line, record your time T in seconds. Your actual speed is S km/h = 5km / Ts x 3600s. Thus if you complete the trip in 170s, your actual speed is 106km/h (which fails the legal standards of reading the speed or within 10% below the actual speed). If you complete the 5km in 190s, your actual speed is 95km/h which explains the tailgaters and bird-flippers.

Of course, you can use your GPS to time the trip, since GPS relies on accurate timekeeping.

Actually, ADR for speedo’s is + or – 10% so doesn’t have to be under by 10%.

Grail said :

But seriously folks, it’s easy enough to stick to the posted speed limit, even if it’s not “right” for this stretch of road. Cruise control is a wonderful tool.

Not everyone has ?t?o?o?l? cruise control.

Those that dont spend half the trip looking at their speedo, or speeding.

I think the gubberment expects people to speed tho, most of the time people do 110 on the south side of the parkway.

I’m also in favour of just calling the whole thing the tuggeranong parkway that would give more weight to having it 100Km/h all along it!

gasman said :

By my calculation, the difference between doing the entire 9km GDE at 80km/h and 90km/h is just 45 seconds. Even less when you include start-up times and traffic delays. To put it another way, the difference is much less time than it took OP to create the table.

The increase is speed increases noise for nearby residents (who were promised an 80km/h limit), decreases fuel efficiency, and is significantly more dangerous to more vulnerable road users (namely cyclists and wildlife).

Simply set your alarm clock 45 seconds earlier and get on with your life.

45 Seconds twice a day 200 Days a year = 5 Hours extra sitting in your car per year!

HenryBG said :

Roads wrongly-signposted like this are the precise reason why most Canberrans treat the posted limits with the contempt they deserve.

No, Canberrans treat the posted limits with contempt because they treat all rules and regulations with equal contempt. Many Canberrans are so fed up with rank & file politics, policy and procedure that the last thing they want to do when heading home for the day is comply to further bureaucracy.

Well, that, and we’re a bunch of self-loathing fat cats who hate everyone equally to ourselves.

But seriously folks, it’s easy enough to stick to the posted speed limit, even if it’s not “right” for this stretch of road. Cruise control is a wonderful tool.

creative_canberran said :

I’ve used GPS to calculate the accuracy of my speedo: -7km/h was the result.

The GPS is not an accurate speed measuring device. It’s accurate to about 10m on a good day, so any measurement of speed is based on measurements of location that are up to 10m out of whack. At 90km/h you are doing about 30m/s, which means your GPS could actually be up to 1/3 incorrect.

A better way to calibrate your speedo is to find one of the 5km marked sections of road (Northbound on Tuggeranong Parkway, from the top of Oakey Hill down to the Cotter Road overpass is one such stretch) and time how long it takes you to travel the 5km when doing a consistent speed.

Travelling 5km at 100km/h should take 180 seconds on the dot. To calibrate, hold a steady speed and start timing when you cross the start line. At the stop line, record your time T in seconds. Your actual speed is S km/h = 5km / Ts x 3600s. Thus if you complete the trip in 170s, your actual speed is 106km/h (which fails the legal standards of reading the speed or within 10% below the actual speed). If you complete the 5km in 190s, your actual speed is 95km/h which explains the tailgaters and bird-flippers.

Of course, you can use your GPS to time the trip, since GPS relies on accurate timekeeping.

By my calculation, the difference between doing the entire 9km GDE at 80km/h and 90km/h is just 45 seconds. Even less when you include start-up times and traffic delays. To put it another way, the difference is much less time than it took OP to create the table.

The increase is speed increases noise for nearby residents (who were promised an 80km/h limit), decreases fuel efficiency, and is significantly more dangerous to more vulnerable road users (namely cyclists and wildlife).

Simply set your alarm clock 45 seconds earlier and get on with your life.

Eyl said :

Also I would like to point out to those who seem to think they can pull out in front of cars doing 80km making other cars slow down very rapidly to 30km-40km or so then sitting on like 70-75km’s you people are the biggest A$$es (most I find pulling out of Forde). Why cant you wait for that one, two or maybe three cars to go past. If i ever do hit one of you people expect to go bankrupt after court.

So they are going to go bankrupt after you run into the back of them? I believe that if you hit them after they have pulled out and you have failed to slow down, you might be the one with some legal issues. Yes, they may be stupid for pulling out, but you still have a requirement to take measures to avoid an accident and slow down for traffic in front of you, leaving a safe distance.

I watched some tool on Hindmarsh Drive this morning who was having trouble understanding what a safe distance was. He found in a hurry when the van in front of him hit the brakes hard to avoid hitting the car in front (no idea why they were braking, just saw the concertina effect) and ploughed into the back of the van. The tailgaters car looked like it had hit a brick wall. The van had a small ding on the rear door and some scratches on the tow bar and rear protection bar.

Erg0 said :

Wouldn’t a duel carriageway be a single lane with “One Way” signs pointing in both directions?

No, they would have jousting sticks or six shooters……..

To add salt to the wound, try adding Pialligo Ave to the above matrix. Scary. Just where is the logic in ACT Roads?

I figure if you don’t have the skills to drive at the speed limit then you probably shouldn’t have a license.

If you feel the need to drive at 10kmh under the limit for no reason – then you probably aren’t very good at driving. Perhaps you could take some driving lessons or something?

What about the noise for aranda folks, and also the argument that the speed limit changes a few times around there so best to keep it consistent 80?

If you keep left unless overtaking, it really won’t matter if some people drive below the speed limit. Sheesh!

HenryBG said :

The idiots who really bug me are the ones who insist on travelling at 70Km/h in these 80Km/h zones, thinking they are sticking to the speed limit.

Given it’s a speed LIMIT, how much under it am I allowed to drive before I annoy you? Just so I know. Would 72 be okay? or still going too slow? do I have to sit at 78-79 for your happiness and so that I don’t ping any of the fixed, mobile or vigilante speed cameras set at 81+!

Remember it’s not a Speed Recommendation or Speed Requirement. It’s a speed limit.

Sure if someone is going 45km/hr in an 80 zone in a bunged up piece of junk then you are going to be held up…..briefly… there are plenty of opportunities to overtake, re-route etc to get to where you so urgently need to be (we must have a lot of Doctors delivering babies in Canberra with all this required speeding).

In other parts of the world, those who know their car doesn’t make the grade (speed wise) will generally shift into the hard shoulder and let you get past.

So is your “Correct Speed Limits for Our Roads” Party going to be registered in time for the 2012 ACT Election? Are you going to widen your appeal and have the “Correct Speed Limits, better deal for cyclists as long as it doesn’t impede motorists, won’t somebody think of the children, crush the cars of multiple drink driving offences Party”…

Vote 1 RiotAct

I do what most people do: drive at a speed I like and brake for the speed cameras and vans.

I don’t mind if some people decide to sit 10km’s under the limit (in the left lane mind you), however I hate it when there are 2 people sitting side by side on the GDE doing 70km or less each, I don’t care about the person in the left lane as they can do whatever speed they like, tho for the person hogging the right hand side sitting at 70km either speed up to the limit and go into the left lane or slow down and go behind the other car already in the left lane so then the half of Canberra waiting can go on their merry way. The extension was supposed to speed things up.

Also I would like to point out to those who seem to think they can pull out in front of cars doing 80km making other cars slow down very rapidly to 30km-40km or so then sitting on like 70-75km’s you people are the biggest A$$es (most I find pulling out of Forde). Why cant you wait for that one, two or maybe three cars to go past. If i ever do hit one of you people expect to go bankrupt after court… 😉

Also people remember a merge lane works a lot like a zipper…..

Eyl ><

luther_bendross said :

I pay attention to the speed limits, generally flicking the cruise control on 2-5km/h under the limit.

2-5km/hr under the speed limit? Would love to know why you do that.

I’ve used GPS to calculate the accuracy of my speedo: -7km/h was the result.

So even driving with the needle on the speed limit, I’m already doing 7 under. In most cars, a difference of over 5km/h is typical. So when you drive at 5 under according to the speedo, you’re easily doing 10-12km/hr slower.

Kind of demonstrates an often overlooked lesson in road safety: know your vehicle.

Thankyou Sarge for taking the time to lobby the issue rather than the majority of the population that scream out f**kers in no particular direction and do whatever speed they feel like, and abuse those who stick to the legal limit left lane or right.

In the table you mention for the GDE : on road cycle lane (yes) and segregated cycle lane or path (yes) . A segregated cycle lane or path would have a physical means of separation, ie barrier or median, so on the GDE it is only ‘on road cycle lanes’,for the majority of its length.

But I would agree the speed limit should be higher but there should also be physical separation of the cycle infrastructure as well.

thatsnotme said :

…Nah, it’s a lot more than 500m that’s not duel – truly duel, anyway…

thatsnotme throwing down the gauntlet!

Growling Ferret said :

The f**kers in the fixed speed vans were parked halfway down the hill after the Aranda turn off today.

No, I’ve never been booked by them, but its a pathetic revenue raising effort without any hint of road safety thrown in.
F**kers.

Oh the van has been sitting regularly on the downhill section of the road since it opened.
But I suppose its worth it because I’m yet to see an accident on this stretch which obviously means the continued speed enforcement is working. Right?

Wouldn’t a duel carriageway be a single lane with “One Way” signs pointing in both directions?

HenryBG said :

Virtually nobody pays any attention to speed limits these days and drives at 5-15Km/h above the limit.

The idiots who really bug me are the ones who insist on travelling at 70Km/h in these 80Km/h zones, thinking they are sticking to the speed limit.

You Sir, are a clown. The speed limit is just that: a limit. Not a minimum, not an average, but an upper limit above which you’re (probably and arguably) driving in an unsafe manner. I pay attention to the speed limits, generally flicking the cruise control on 2-5km/h under the limit. As such I get abused, flipped off, tailgated, et al. I then arrive at my destination 2min after said lunatics. I have a job with enough inherent risk and danger that I can justify. What I couldn’t justify is injuring myself or someone else on the way home to my wife through arrogant stupidity.

HenryBG said :

Virtually nobody pays any attention to speed limits these days and drives at 5-15Km/h above the limit.

And anyone who does so should be fined appropriately.

Chop71 said :

William Hovell is dual for all but 500m (buggered if they could be bothered digging into the hill 2m for the last little bit.) Typical lazy Canberra road construction.

Nah, it’s a lot more than 500m that’s not duel – truly duel, anyway. From the roundabout at Drake Brockman, down to the overtaking lane near Coppins Crossing, the citybound lane is single lane.

And to be honest, it’d probably be better if that section of overtaking lane was switched around so it wasn’t even there for citybound traffic, it causes holdups through idiots deciding to overtake and then failing at merging once it ends, I’m sure it’d be faster if the other lane was given back to the Belco bound lane, so it was actually duel lane all the way.

Sgt.Bungers said :

pajs said :

It’s really not that hard to do 80km/hr on the GDE. Just ignore everyone who thinks the speedlimit should be 90 or 100. Bring on the enforcement, I reckon.

I’ll bite…

Totally reasonable!

Design a near freeway quality road with a 90 km/h speed limit in mind. Open that road with an 80 km/h speed limit, one of the lowest in the developed world for such a road (despite identical and even higher speed limits on lower quality roads in the same jurisdiction).

Enforce said speed limit with as many speed cameras as possible.

Quash questions from protesters with labels of “hoons” and arguments of “if you cant obey speed limit don’t drive”.

Profit.

I’m all for obeying the law. I’m also for the law being sensible and reasonable. I see no adequate reason why the GDE speed limit is 80km/h. Point to point speed cameras on a brand new stretch of road with an unnecessarily and unreasonably low speed limit are clearly about money making, and nothing to do with safety.

Growling Ferret said :

The f**kers in the fixed speed vans were parked halfway down the hill after the Aranda turn off today.

No, I’ve never been booked by them, but its a pathetic revenue raising effort without any hint of road safety thrown in.
F**kers.

Yeh I saw the F#ckers, parked behind the trees on the downhill bit obscured by the slight bend in the road.

F#cking, F#ckers, the road safety arguement is in tatters.
Stupid F#ckers

Growling Ferret said :

The f**kers in the fixed speed vans were parked halfway down the hill after the Aranda turn off today.

Were the cameras fixed to the vans?

I think it is pretty clear to all that the cameras are there to punish people who cannot stick to a arbitrarily assigned (as the good sarge shows) numerical rounded number (why are speed limits not more exact? 37km/h on some roads, 86km on others).

Personally, I haven’t been caught in a couple of years* so count myself pretty lucky. (* – never by a camera though….).

Roads wrongly-signposted like this are the precise reason why most Canberrans treat the posted limits with the contempt they deserve.

Virtually nobody pays any attention to speed limits these days and drives at 5-15Km/h above the limit.

The idiots who really bug me are the ones who insist on travelling at 70Km/h in these 80Km/h zones, thinking they are sticking to the speed limit.

pajs said :

It’s really not that hard to do 80km/hr on the GDE. Just ignore everyone who thinks the speedlimit should be 90 or 100. Bring on the enforcement, I reckon.

I’ll bite…

Totally reasonable!

Design a near freeway quality road with a 90 km/h speed limit in mind. Open that road with an 80 km/h speed limit, one of the lowest in the developed world for such a road (despite identical and even higher speed limits on lower quality roads in the same jurisdiction).

Enforce said speed limit with as many speed cameras as possible.

Quash questions from protesters with labels of “hoons” and arguments of “if you cant obey speed limit don’t drive”.

Profit.

William Hovell is dual for all but 500m (buggered if they could be bothered digging into the hill 2m for the last little bit.) Typical lazy Canberra road construction.

It’s really not that hard to do 80km/hr on the GDE. Just ignore everyone who thinks the speedlimit should be 90 or 100. Bring on the enforcement, I reckon.

shock horror, the law is being enforced…

The f**kers in the fixed speed vans were parked halfway down the hill after the Aranda turn off today.

No, I’ve never been booked by them, but its a pathetic revenue raising effort without any hint of road safety thrown in.
F**kers.