3 August 2005

When is a high speed pursuit not a high speed pursuit?

| johnboy
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Following on from our story on 21 year old Clea who is currently in a very bad way in Canberra Hospital after being hit by a stolen car in the small hours of Saturday morning the Canberra Times has a detailed article on the incident and what exactly it was the police were doing.

Luke Bicevskis told the ABC that the cars had been travelling at 80-100km/h when they had gone through the bus interchange and Jeremy Pavlovic said the police car had been very close behind the Commodore.

“They [the Commodore] just zoomed through there with absolute carelessness because they were in a hurry to get out because the AFP car was that close,” he said.

Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree that the miscreants in the stolen car should be held accountable to the full extent of the law. However if the authority figures had chosen a different course of action the kids would be up for a minor car theft charge and a 21 year old woman would be getting on with her life this morning. Some quality time in the room of mirrors would at least be in order one would think.

But the institutional dishonesty of the police still claiming there was no high speed pursuit (a statement I suspect is clinging to a very subtle interpretation of what constitutes a “high speed pursuit”) is what concerns me the most. Police complain about a hostile media, but when can we trust them for anything but the good news?

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I’ll give Mr Pavlova one thing, he has not tried to hide behind a nom de plume with his statements.

There seems to be no problem here, well, the example above is an anomoly. However, blog or no blog, it’s not hard to use some structure as opposed to what is written above.

As well, if you are writing like the above then it’s more likely that people will not read it.

Thus your message is totally mute.

I read something (don’t ask me to cite, ’cause I honestly can’t remember where) about blogging influencing the written language; primarily because paragraphs, sentance structure, correct spelling, punctuation and capitalisation all are an “unnatural” way to write online.

I would say more because people might consider what they have written if they go back and edit it. I’m sure we can agree that’s just not done on any given blog 😉

I just can’t read it.

Don’t they teach kids about paragraphs and grammatical structures these days?

And we’re closing down schools…..

*Sigh*

Are the people who can’t write in paragraphs really all lunatic ranters, or is it just that I find their stuff so hard to read that I assume that it’s lunacy to stop my brain hurting?

Anyone conversant in jibberish?

Well everyone this is the official Jeremy Pavlovic, After long interviews with federal police in brisbane to figure the situation of event that happened i would say the cars was travelling at high speeds, in the case im standing still and a car goes through a pedestrian crossing at 80klm its seems fast from where standing, but what i seen ill never forget, i have not one thing against police, for crying out loud i had my australian federal police application for employment in at the time and the only reason for being there was to see the lifestyle of canberra to come join the federal police, as much as it seems im trying to make a personal verbal attack on the federal police im not, the media ask what i had seen so i just told them what i seen, tho they didnt go into details of what happened like in some cases it didnt seem like it was for Clea, more a good way to take a shot at the federal police, but then again its the media for them there is no story like a bad story and a government to blame it on, personaly i didnt want any of this to happen Clea Rose is very close to my age and that hits home to the point you dont feel safe, she was probably out having a good night, and in an instant her life can be finished by a folish teenager thinking there cool driving a stolen car, its hard for me now to cross streets and its hard for me to be in even a taxi with a driver that want to drive fast, i keep picturing someone steping out, and its crazy but the sounds of a bad situation stay with you forever, i still remember the sounds of the car hitting her and the sirens and her breathing and crying, the breathing was like last breaths and the crying was so painful to see, a month or 2 ago i spoke to her father on the phone in was a interesting but painful phone call, he told me that the accident had effected another girl that was at the seen next to Clea so bad and that the girl was worken with a charatie fund for people that suffer from brain injuries caused by car accidents the mission called “Walk For a Rose” Walking or Jogging From Brisbane to Canberra he ask me if id like to be in it i said id love to cause it seem who ever the other girl was at the scene was from Brisbane aswell, I guess out of all of it ill take my steps in life carefully and watch wen i cross the street and ill never speed cause u never know what could happen in seconds, I send all my best prayers to the family and i think the police did the right thing cause they got the people that did it. Rip Clea Rose

Candy Priano1:56 pm 27 Aug 05

Please check out this story written by a former peace officer: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/All-pumped-up/2004/11/12/1100227581212.html†

I believe some of his comments mirror what happens in too many chases. As a victim of a pursuit who buried her innocent daughter, I don’t believe this officer’s story represents all in law enforcement, but I have read enough deadly pursuit stories where I know exactly what the police department’s PR people are going to say. There are other ways to catch these people w/o putting the innocent in harm’s way. Also, please check out http://www.kristieslaw.org. Thank you.

A friend of mine who used to work at a school in nearby the AWM knows of one of these little pricks.

Apparently he has a record as long as your arm, and some, and is a nasty, hopeless basket case who’s only redeeming feature is that one day he’ll die.

Maybe next time he gets he in front of the old beak he’ll actually be given a punishment that befits the crime.

And yet one somehow sadly doubts it.

I can’t count the amount of times I’ve been on a bender in civic and not bothered looking before I cross that particular bit of real estate. I’ll take a moment next time though…

That being said, fault lies with the driver/s of the stolen vehicle and no one else.

There’s something to be said for checking for traffic before crossing the road!

Candy, I applaud your researchinto American pursuit policies but how about you look at something a little closer to home.

It took me about 1/2 a minute to find this review of QLD policy.

http://www.cmc.qld.gov.au/library/CMCWEBSITE/PolicePursuits.pdf

G

Well, it seems there’s not much enthusiasm.

Thats life.

cheers

Candy Priano7:57 am 07 Aug 05

If it’s okay, I will link this blog to the kristieslaw.org Web site.

Top 10 Reasons why high-speed chases will continue unabated in California and worldwide and more & more innocent victims will be killed and injured.
Revised May 18, 2005

“Absolutely, the person who chooses to flee from the police is to blame. It is his/her primary responsibility to stop for the police. These are serious criminals who should be put in prison. BUT, knowing that some people will flee, the police have the responsibility to act in a way that protects us — the public,” Geoffrey Alpert, a nationally recognized expert on police violence and pursuit driving.

Credit for the following Top 10 Reasons goes to many individuals,
mostly officers, experts, and innocent victims of pursuit.

10.
Myth #1: People run because there’s a dead body in every trunk.
I’m not saying the police have NEVER found a dead body in the trunk of a car, but I must ask: When was the last time you read or heard a news story where an innocent person was killed in a pursuit and the UNKNOWN person being chased had a dead body in the trunk?

9.
Myth #2: If officers don’t chase, then everyone will flee.
Law enforcement officials repeat this myth over and over again. One could mistakenly conclude that a mandatory reduction in police pursuits via restrictive pursuit policies — allowing chases for only violent felons — renders police officers completely powerless. These three studies say otherwise:
Review of Orlando (Fla.) PD’s Restrictive Pursuit Policy
Results from the LAPD Review
A Department of Justice Study

8.
Myth #3: Officers have absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of pursuits that result in the death of an innocent person.
Sarah Boland’s Death
Officer Joshua Lancaster’s Death
Kristie Priano’s Death
Sarah Phillips’ Death

7.
Myth #4: Pursuit crashes are just “car accidents.”
Crimes committed with cars are extremely common. Innocent victims and their families are often victimized again when the media, the public, and the courts call these crimes “car accidents.” Accidents are not premeditated. Pursuits occur when a person decides to flee and an officer decides to chase. People who flee are self-absorbed; they are not thinking about the safety of others. So the burden to protect innocent victims, by necessity, falls on the police. 

6.
Myth #5: If officers don’t chase, “someone else” might get killed.
Or, innocent people killed in pursuits are collateral damage. Their deaths are necessary to protect the greater majority.
This myth is so hard to comprehend, but easy to understand. For many years the media has almost exclusively used law enforcement officials as their primary source when covering deadly chases that involve innocent victims. With the number of innocent victims of pursuit increasing daily, the public is beginning to question if the cost of these chases outweighs the benefit.

Obviously, killing the innocent does not save lives.

5.
Myth #6: Not that many innocent people get killed in pursuits.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reports year after year that more innocent bystanders are killed in police chases than officers. The NHTSA report for pursuit fatalities in the United States discloses that 370 people were killed in 2001. Occupants in a police vehicle totaled 4. Occupants of other vehicle (innocent bystanders) not involved in the pursuit and pedestrians totaled 143. Occupants in chased vehicle (note, this includes passengers, some of which are children) totaled 223.  
  And please note: These crashes occur one at a time, so the full brunt of the deaths and injuries is only felt by the loved ones left behind who bury the dead and take care of the permanently injured.

4.
Myth #7: People think it will never happen to them.
About a month before Kristie was killed as I was changing channels on my TV, I saw a high-speed chase end in a horrific crash. I turned off the TV and said out loud to myself, “Someone COULD get killed doing that,” never realizing at the time that people DO get killed doing that. Not until my Kristie was killed did I truly understand that high-speed police chases kill innocent people.

3.
Myth #8: If police pursuit practices were broken,
our elected legislators would fix the problem.
Law and Order Republican Senator Sam Aanestad, author of Kristie’s Law, is ONE legislator who has never waivered in his stand on public safety first. He put his own political ambitions aside in order to introduce legislation that will save lives. Read how Senator Aanestad’s political career has been threatened in this news article in the L.A. Times.
The following commentary is by Jim Phillips, president of PursuitWatch.org: “California Law Enforcement is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the state. Additionally, the endorsement of political candidates by Law Enforcement is a very important element in any campaign. California Law Enforcement would like to frame the whole immunity issue into the simplistic logic of ‘If the bad guys had not run, none of this would have happened.’ PERIOD. While this is certainly true, it ignores the complexity of pursuits and prevents any rational approach to making them safer and less costly. The scandalous position of California Law Enforcement is that they are powerless to do anything to prevent pursuit deaths and injuries and that is exactly what they do — nothing.”

2.
Fact: Most innocent victims of pursuit are poor.
However, since more and more middle class citizens are being killed in these deadly chases, we are seeing that THIS ISSUE is becoming a more PUBLIC ISSUE.

… and the number one reason why high-speed chases continue unabated:

1.
Fact: The right person has not been killed yet.

If you don’t believe #1 & #2, then read about this deadly chase in Stockton!

Copyright 2005 KristiesLaw.org

And I’ll take it since I am only earning a “labourers” wage!

I’d throw in $50 towards ORL’s detox costs and another $50 for English lessons.

Posters vary, something in the order of 30 active at any given time i’d say. People register at a ferocious rate (a couple every day) but never seem to go any further, possibly out of fear.

webstat reported just shy of 800 unique visitors yesterday of which just over 300 had visited the site the day before. Make of it what you will.

Fund raising on the net is a chancy thing but if a legit appeal is organised we will be more than happy to give it publicity.

As for the lost data? All I know for sure is that it isn’t where it’s meant to be. If I had destroyed it then my story would be much the same as the one we’re hearing.

its a bit hard to tell thumper. We’ve now got 418 registered users however a few of those have doubled up trying to get their user id’s to work (although it could be so they can argue with themselves). How many active posters? well that would depend on the topic.

JB,

How many people post here?

Why doesn’t RA hold its own telethon sort of thing and see if we can’t raise a grand or so for Clea?

Maybe we could get 2CC on board.

I’ll start with $20

JB – The CCTV imagery would have had to exist in the first place for it now to be missing.

El – my source indicated that she saw a white car speed through the interchange, hit Clea and keep going. Its apparently a bit of blur after that but the police pursuit if we can call it that was some seconds later, possibly up to a minute (which to my mind seems far too long to be accurate).

The point is, that several people saw the incident and none can be relied upon to say exactly how far behind the police were, nor if the police were in any position to stop what occurred.

Bulldog, I’m talking the big brother kind of immobiliser where the coppers call in they want to stop “YAK-453”, and the sattelite shuts down the engine kind of thing.

I think you got the idea though.

grammar. I suck.

Apologies for my poor gramaar befor I get flamed, I posted before editing.

Oh yeah, and it’s Friday. I just don’t give a f*ck.

I don’t think we’re such a tough bunch…. Mael, you crack me up.

Anyway, back to topic; Immobilisers would potentially solve a repeat of this tragedy. The Federal Gov’t currently subsidises certain immobilers which are good quality, not your stathfield/JB crap.

I suggest all posters who feel strongly about this go an see an auto elec about having one installed. They cost as little as $149 and in the light of this tragedy is the responsible thing to do.

If youwant to blame someone, blame everyone who is irresponsible enough to elt their cars be stolen by a pack of kids, who are NOT criminal masterminds, merely stains on the fair underwear that is this city.

PSNo I don’t work for an immobiliser manufacturer of auto elec.

on topic people, please.

Oh come on LG, his ridin and ritin are fin.

I’m just a little raw after my superblogging regarding the superschool and the fact that the only thing it will produce is idiots like ‘above’.

ORL, I’m gonna talk to you again. Thankyou for making the effort to type in some semblance of english. Please remember that we aren’t American yet.

I am intolerant ORL, if you can’t handle that, there’s a problem, but not at my end. There are certain things that get up my goat, the education level of children at the moment is probably my biggest worry.

That’s right, I’m worried about you.

I’m worried that you will never get a job that pays anything decently outside ‘labourer’ or ‘contractor’ because you can’t read or write properly, you can’t put a vocal sentence together, and you act like it’s all my fault.

Here’s a smack in the face, it’s not my fault.

If you can’t handle a little suggestion, forget telling the posters here on RiotACT to get a life, try for one yourself.

You are so quick to judge me on my suggestion that you might want to slow down and think a little that you have forgotten that I was the very first person to post a suggestion on this topic.

I said that I believe that the time has come for us to be looking at putting immobilisers into vehicles so this kind of thing can’t happen.

Is that anti police ? anti criminal ? no.

It was a suggestion that if implemented would have a young lady on the street today.

If that’s still too hard for you, get fucked.

I’m not responsible for your upkeep.

Hear hear!

And this is my personal, not professional opinion

There is that much amateur conspiracy theorism going on about this subject that it stuns me that people of inferred intelligence continue to post.

Suffice to say that the Police involved would not be sharing cartwheels and ‘high fives’ at what has been a tragic consequence of this situation. This isn’t helped by those supposedly ‘in the know’ sharing their knowledge with everyone else in the ACT with the exception of the people actually investigating the matter. If you have factual knowledge to share then for goodness’ sake do it with the people who count, the investigators. Their contact details are well known and to think that factual information you share with them will be lost or deleted quite frankly smacks of watching too many episodes of the X-Files.

I have seen, heard and read so much on this incident that is factually incorrect it is stunning, meanwhile those that wax and wane about how the actions of certain parties are wrong choose not to share their knowledge with those that count, rather simply believing what a friend’s friend’s friend told them.

Please people, a bit of level-headed thinking and sharing your factual knowledge with those that you should, and if you’re not happy with the Police then call the Ombudsman, will help paint a far clearer picture of what went on, rather than the amateur detective work and hearsay that people are using at the moment

Don’t let Apostrophe Man get hold of this.

Now you’ve mastered “you” and “are”, would I be pushing the friendship to ask you to say “people” instead of “ppl”?

And the apostrophe (note the spelling of “apostrophe”) v exclamation mark issue was sorted out several posts back. Please try to keep up darling.

El
Yes there was more than one witness.
Clea was out partying with two other friends that were with her at that tragic moment, that narrowly escaped getting hit by the stolen car and by the cops.

I guess I have a bias opinion of what happend because I know a bit more about it than most of you.
I have to say I have never come to this site until the other day and I think it is full of intolerant ppl.
Ppl who don’t have a problem with accusing others of being this or being that without even considering the argument they are thrying to convey.
No one here, except for a few, were here to discuss the topic, maybe ask some questions and find out more information.

They were here to diss anyone that didn’t have their view. I was happy to voice my opinion that I knew wouldn’t be welcomed with open bloody arms, but I never had the intention of abusing ppl and degrading them because they had a different opinion. I may not agree with a lot of ppl’s comments on here but I would never start calling them names because they didn’t use correct grammer or have a different opinion to theirs.
I really think that it was rude to be told that I should love the cops in case they have to save my “sorry arse” oneday.

Or from TOOL: “ORL I think it is apparent that you would like to know what you are talking about but don’t”.
Oh really, who are you to say that Tool? Well I think it is apparent that you would like to know what you are talking but don’t.

Or asked if “I have ever Detoxed”?
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Well if is supposed to mean that I must be crazy and out of my mind then I guess I could ask you the same question Gingermick.
You probably are some Fat public servant who has been in the same job for 10yrs has no life or sex life, watches the same TV wishes for the same things and doesn’t do shit about it…… I would never had said this to anyone but I will stand up.
So have you ever detoxed Gingermick?

And the fact that someone could come on here and think that it is appropriate to start correcting everyone’s (well just me) grammer its just insensitive.

I didn’t know the internet and forums like this were restricted to Professor’s of Literature now???!!!

I feel I was willing to discuss the topic with ppl and answer their questions and offer questions but other ppl had a different agenda.

By the way maelinar, I beleive that this is an aphostropy ‘ and this is actually called an exclamation mark !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So before you go judging everyone else and their academic abilites you should make sure that you are up to par!

Anyway, I believe a forum is to voice what you believe in and feel passionate about and feel as though you can do that without being ridiculed or told you are wrong.
No one is wrong here, unless of course you are ridiculling someone for no reason.

I wonder if this is how you ppl act in your work place, with your family and friends? Shoot them down if they are wrong (or you beleive they are).

“Shoot first ask questions later”
Maybe you really are all cops, tough crowd I guess.

So I hope next time some of you are on DISCUSSION FORUMS (keyword> Discussion) that you actually do just that and not make ppl feel like shit because they have a different opinion
or
write in txt msg short hand.

I hope in the future I don’t hear about two ppl (maelinar and LG) going crazy and murdering someone cos they couldn’t handle r and u anymore!

“For fucks sake I’ve been as patient as I can be. PLEASE type “are” and “you”. It is only two extra letters for Christ’s sake.”

Maybe they should open up their own forum if this was the issue that they felt strongly about?????

Give it time people….

Reports are so widely conflicting that no-one seems to know whats going on.

And if was in civic at that time I wouldn’t have a clue what was going on, mainly due to the influence of copious aounts of Roman nectar….

I’d like to see Hargreaves show so balls and come out in the media and say that he will definitely get to the facts of the matter.

Jazz, I would be referring to the CCTV imagery which isn’t where it should be on the hard drive.

I think you’ll find that the list of avaliable witnesses at the time of the incident will dramatically reduce as you exclude those under the influence of alcohol or other substances at the time.

It appears that the reliable stories of ‘witnesses’ have been varying dependant on influence of said items as well.

I’m taking it with a grain of salt at the moment.

Out of interest, what did the people you spoke to say they saw Jazz?

what the hell is this missing evidence you keep referring to?

El, if there WAS a high speed pursuit then so be it, as everyone agrees they were chasing bad and highly dangerous boys.

But since then the conflicting statements and missing evidence indicate either insitutional incompetence, or massive dishonesty. (and the unsettling possibility of both)

That’s the story that’s getting me riled.

Perhaps Police Media could put out a statement explaining which of their statements they stand by, on which ones they were misinformed, and what caused those errors. They could go on to explain why a hugely expensive CCTV system has no fault checking or redundancy, because that beggars belief.

Until then they may as well give up and go home because there isn’t much credibility left.

ORL has also said “I know exactly what happened!!!!!” which we found out to be, er, not exactly true.

It still would’ve happened if they were chasing or not. No amount of shit-slinging at the Police is going to change that.

I’ve also spoken to some people who were there JB, they have a different recollection of events other than the girl got hit. I think that bit is pretty clear.

The evidence hasn’t gone missing, There is no conspiracy

Well El, ORL has said she spoke to people who WERE there.

And now the evidence has gone missing.

I never said it’s OK for the AFP to lie through their teeth. I wasn’t there – and I don’t know the full story either – do you?

The only fact that seems to be definate is this:

Three underage, unlicenced kids were driving in a stolen car and hit Clea in Civic interchange.

Anything else is hearsay until video footage is available, or another witness comes forward – which brings up another point: surely there must’ve been more than ONE PERSON that saw this?

As for drifting through life not standing up for anything, you’re making assumptions and looking foolish doing it – I’m standing up for the cops who seem to be getting more than their fair share of the blame for this tragedy.

It’s a job I wouldn’t want for anything in the world.

LG,

Your comment cracked me up.

“For fucks sake I’ve been as patient as I can be. PLEASE type “are” and “you”. It is only two extra letters for Christ’s sake.”

cheers

Why does everyone say that certain ppl have misplaced anger?
What does that even mean? Everyone has different views and opinions they can place their anger where ever they want. Can they not?
Anger is on both parties from MY opinion.

Why does everyone think it is ok to just sit back and let the AFP lie through their teeth?
I guess Canberrans’ and society in general are used to it? Or don’t Question governments and authority anymore?

Yay, I love living in a society where we just drift through life, not standing up for anything, agreeing with what the goverment says and never questioning things. Of course they only do what is good for EVERYONE and tell us the TRUTH all the time.

With the CCTV not working, shouldn’t we question that too?
Firstly the AFP said they would not use the CCTV footage in their internal investigation, only for use in convicting the criminals. So I think that is wierd.

Aren’t these camera’s there for security and safety reason. They are not much good if they are not bloody working are they?
Who’s responsibility is it to maintain these camera’s?
Hopefully another crime won’t happpen in civic again, cos obviously you can’t rely on CCTV. Unless of course it is ONLY used to convict the criminals.

If some “terriorist” walked into the middle of the interchange with a bomb and blew someone up we would wonder why the camera’s weren’t working then, wouldn’t we?

And I am not trying to compare what happened on Friday to terrorism, I am just using it as an example.

The CCTV cameras not recording thing smells a bit, but none the less, the anger directed at the cops seems misplaced. As for Braddon being “well away from the interchange”, well that’s absolute nonsense. At 80Km/h (the speed some witnesses, whose credibility we still can’t accurately judge) you could travel from the Braddon end of Mort St to the end of the interchange (exiting at London CCT in about 15-20 seconds. Hardly enough time to set up a roadblock.

“MANY undercover and marked cars patrolling Braddon on Friday nights” sounds like speculation to me. During Summernats, sure…but having driven through Mort and Lonsdale Streets on Friday and Saturday nights recently I can’t say I’ve seen much of a police presence at all. The whole area (aside from Civic Pub and the servo) seemed fairly well empty.

Either way, the cops can’t win:

Girl gets hit by delinquents in stolen car whilst being pursued by cop car – Outrage. They should have called off the chase. Why weren’t they doing their job properly?

Girl gets hit by delinquents in stolen car. No police presence. Outrage. WTF? Where were the cops? Why weren’t they doing their job properly.

Either way, it’s doubtful the shits that were driving the stolen car would’ve been driving any differently, cops behind them or not.

ORL, have you tried detox?

ahh, fair enough.

I guess we have different definitions of ‘high speed’ and ‘pursuit’

Jazz. I never said I know EXACTLY what happened. I wasn’t there. I’m not going to go into how and why I know what happened, or what I have been told.I don’t think I have changed my story at ALL.
I am expressing my opinion too.
I have never said that the police are the criminals. They didn’t hit her. Some little delinquents did! And they have been caught. Good on the police for catching them.

The point was, that the police said that they never were in a high speed chase. That is exactly what they said.
So why would the police be driving at 80km p/h through the interchange if they were not in a pursuit ?
Just cruising were they at 80 km p/h

This is the point I am trying to make…. They were in a high speed pursit. And now the AFP are trying to lie about it…..
Does anyone see that? I am not screaming cover up and conspiracy theory or anything like that.
But we all have to take responsibiltiy in our own jobs so why don’t the AFP?

If your house got broken into and they found some evidence to convict the criminal but then lost the evidence and then lied to you saying that there was really no evidence in the first place would you be a little annoyed???

The people that drove the car and hit Clea are the ones responsible for doing that. The police also have a responsibility to do their jobs. Yes they were doing their job, but I don’thtink they did it very well.
As I said before I personally think that as trained police officers they could have assessed the situation better and a different outcome may have occured.

Whooahhh there people.

The facts are that the police were doing their job and someone got badly injured. That is a tragedy.

If the little smackheads hadn’t stole the car, then none of this wold have happened.

As for the cameras and the silence from the police, lets hope that Hargreaves can come up with the answers in a reasonable time, which is, regrettably, not the norm for this government.

I stole the idea from my brother in law who worked up in parliament house.

His rule was if a submission contained more than 3 exclamation marks or more than 5 words strung together in FULL CAPITALS, they were nutters and could safely be deleted.

I believe he had massive success with this and we considered producing software to sell to government agencies which would screen out the crap for them based upon those and similar simple rules…

I just wondered cos he has an interesting point about excessive use of exclamation marks and I thought you might have been following that line of thought.

K

K: No
Punk: Why am I a dick ?

Is it because I believe that the police should chase stolen cars ?

Is it because I think that even though things could have been done a little better, and there are superior options out there, that at the end of the day the police were doing their job ?

Or is it because I mentioned that somebody might perhaps like to do night classes to pick up their educational level because it is poor ?

Which of these makes ME a dick ?

I’ve only expressed my opinion. That makes me opinionated, not a dick.

Mael, read much Terry Pratchett?
(apologies to Jazz after his last comment re getting this back on track)

K

Its a tragedy. Stupid and pointless.
AFP are obviously putting out public service spin – until proved otherwise we will claim nothing was un-toward in our officers behaviour. In this town that should surprise nobody.

Now that the CCTV footage doesn’t exist one has to ask about the resourcing of these camera’s. You would think the AFP can afford several VCR’s and a few hundred tapes.

Obviously our policing priorities lie with some other area. Looking after pollies or something,

The idiots who stole a car and drove it through an interchange full of people at anything other than walking pace are truly at the lower end of the gene pool. How someone can make such a mess of their lives before their late teens is frightening.

Lets hope that Clea recovers and that her family and friends also recover from this.

Lets also hope the idiots get to face those they have hurt and are forced to deal with the pain suffering and grief they have caused.
No doubt we will have a outraged public and some more mess in our community to deal with.

I heard on the news on the way home that CCTV footage is unavailable because the cameras weren’t working at the time. Something smells about this.

sure thing punk, but as I think ORL’s anger is sorely misplaced I felt that i need to point that out. The police are not at fault here.

About 30 comments ago when this thread was degrading into a spelling bee i was tempted to lock the thread or delete in entirely. But as it has come back on topic I haven’t and won’t. It’s a topic that has little to do with your friend other than she was the very unfortunate victim of gross disregard for humanaity by three boys in a stolen car.

If ORL want’s to express her opinions in a public forum such as the one we provide here, then others are equally able to express theirs.

oh, you are also assuming i am rational.

punk in drublic6:08 pm 03 Aug 05

Jazz leave it alone. I am glad this thread has made you laugh, at least all this isn’t for nothing. ORL is expressing the anger built up inside her because her friend got knocked the fuck down by a speeding car, recognise that as the rational human being you are and leave it alone.

this whole thread is starting to make me laugh. The anger directed at the police in this instance is sorely misplaced. My god, the police are lying to us. obviously its a cover up. they’ve got nothing better to do and their image is sooo sparkly clean already.

ORL – you’ve already changed your story a number of times, firstly you know exactly what happened, then in the same comment you mention you know this because you heard it from other people.

Special G’s comments are quite accurate, until someone can answer the questions he raised then nobody knows exactly what happend other than Clea was hit by a car supposedly driven by a 14yo who may or may not have been on a good behaviour bond and have parents who are irresponsible drugged out hippies

Conisder for example the length of the bus interchange. Clea get hit in the middle by speeding car, police are in the process of turning the corner into the interchange and see said car speeding out the other side of the interchange approx 60mtrs away. 60mts at 80kph is covered in what, 5 seconds, maybe less? anyone considered that the police vehicle may have been 5 seconds behind? OK, so they don’t stop. why? well they are driving through the interchange and maybe, just maybe, see someone lying on the sidewalk (that never happens in the city on a saturday night does it). They aren’t at all concerned about hitting anyone else as they drive through the interchange themselves. Nooo, that would be unreasonable. Even if they do see it, what are the two officers going to do, being professionally trained paramedics and all.

punk in drublic5:47 pm 03 Aug 05

Maelinar you are a total dick dude. You are talking to a girl whos friend was nailed by a car a few days ago, get off your high horse mate.

ORL, this whole thing really does suck, I knew Clea too. But for the time being it is Clea we should be directing our energy towards, the police, the kids, the situation can all be dealt with later. Right now try to remember Clea is the most important thing, keep her,and her family, in your thoughts and prayers and try to let go of the rest.

Take care of yourself, do your best to not let this eat you up and make this more of a tragedy then it already is.. Make sure you talk to someone, not this forum, talk to someone close about how you are feeling, get it out of your system. Thats the best advice I can give.

I would like to respectfully ask that people stop posting to this thread for the time being, lets have this discussion in the future.

You didn’t answer the question ORL…

I think Tool has said it very nicely.

ORL check your source as to the it started in Braddon theory. It’s a load of crap.

As to this comment “And as I said before Braddon has MANY undercover and marked cars patrolling Braddon on Friday nights.”

Where the hell did ACT Police (least number of Police per 100,000 people in Australia) get MANY cars. Setting up road blocks and stuff – You make me laugh.

G

For fucks sake I’ve been as patient as I can be. PLEASE type “are” and “you”. It is only two extra letters for Christ’s sake.

And what is the policy if a police car sees someone get hit by the offending car?
R they supposed to stop or if they r in the pursuit already is it to keep going?

PS: sorry for my bad spelling and grammer for those who care!
but u get the drift.

As to the criminal masterminds theory – None of them are to sharp – otherwise they wouldn’t be; getting caught, stealing cars for joyriding, taking drugs.

Well firstly I have no idea what that is about as I said they r NOT criminal master minds.
I know they r not smart. otherwise they wouldn’t be stealing cars at 12.

I don’t know exactly how the incident started but I have read that they saw them acting suspiciously. To me thismeans they either saw them parked somewhere, driving suspiciously, or looking as though they were about to steal a car but as I have heard from my friend who talked to the police that night why waiting to go the poilce staion this started in braddon. Now this is well away from the interchange. And as I said before Braddon has MANY undercover and marked cars patrolling Braddon on Friday nights. Why not let htem know other units of their suspicions?
It is an easy area to set up a road block or something? I don’t know I am not a police officer. i don’t know what they do but I know that something went wrong from starting a high speed pursuit in Braddon and then letting it get all the way to the interchange.
I believe they could have done more.
And yes it was all caught on CCTV. Right near the newsagent on the corner.
The car was dumped back in Braddon and they got away.
the AFP r obviously on drugs for the fact of coming out the next morning and saying there was no police chase what so ever!!! No at all.
That is crazy. It is a blatant lie.

And the parents must be on drugs if this kid is on a 12 mth good beahviour bond and he goes out and does this. U can’t respect any parent who can raise a child that would continue to steal cars after already getting busted for it!

If I was a police officer and I saw either of these three situations my first

I just don’t see how they were doing their job badly. Had Clea not been hit and the police chased them and caught them, I am sure there would have been a rousing applause from all the onlookers!

Put yourself in this situation:

You drive past a car, you recognise the drivers as serial car thieves (under 15), you see their expression when they notice your undercover car and they dart off from you, you figure out (correctly) that the car is stolen, and the car you see it is speeding towards the City interchange full of people. What do you do?

Wouldn’t you be criticised more if you did nothing and the girl still gets hit?

Well G, I think we’d all like to know the answers to those questions.

which was kind of the point I started off with.

No i am not saying that they didn’t know what they were doing. I am saying the police didn’t know what they were doing.
And don’t be silly by saying that we shouldn’t pull ppl over if it is dark etc.
No one is asking for that.

I think that the police didn’t assess the situation correctly and it cost dearly.
I honestly think the situation could have been handled better.

I see the problem in this case is that the little bastards actually did see a Police car and as soon as they did they did a runner.

Again not the fault of the Police that they went down the bus interchange – so you can change who you are pissed off with.

Nest time the Police see a bunch of youths in a car maybe they will say ‘hey we will get them later’ and drive on while the youths go and steal your car while holding a screwdriver in your wife/girlfriend/mum/sisters face.

As to the criminal masterminds theory – None of them are to sharp – otherwise they wouldn’t be; getting caught, stealing cars for joyriding, taking drugs.

You know exactly what happened – How did the incident start? Where were the Police? Who was in the Police car? Who were the 3 youths in the car? Who was driving? Which CCTV cameras would have captured the incident? Where was the car dumped by the little f@#ckers? “I think the AFP are on drugs” Who exactly is on drugs?

When you can answer me all those questions you can tell me that you know exactly what happened? Everything else is hearsay and beat up media.

I don’t think the Police stuffed up. I think they were doing their job.

Next time you see a car go past (at night), take a look and tell me exactly how many people and what their ages are in the car. If you see a 13-15 year old driving you’d probably think it looks wrong.

Its people like you who try to shift the blame when something bad happens. Hold the little shits responsible. Take your misguided anger and put it there.

I can understand that you know Clea (I don’t) and that has you a little pissed off. Instead of being pissed off with the Police how about you just help out and try to make society a little more pleasant to live in.

As to “The AFP lied flat out and did the wrong thing!” When you can answer those questions I asked earlier tell me that again.

G

And in reference to your previous comment mae

The police were doing their job, the villains were doing theirs.

They were doing their job badly (the police) that is the whole point here.
Well the one I am trying to discuss anyway.
But nobody seems to want to.

Well you are justifying your arguemwnt based on the fact that they were young children who didn’t know what they were doing, therefore the police should have acknowledged this and not followed them. My point is that they were kids who DID know what they were doing.

Perhaps we should introduce a new law that police are no longer allowed to try and stop a car in a busy area, or a main road, or if its dark, or it he driver is clearly underaged/unlicenced.

Well Maelinar,
It must be readable cos u keep coming back for more!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it is bothering u so much stop reading my “my badly spelt blogs with incorrect grammer and annoying text msg short hand”

At least I can stammer out a readable sentence..

nm that anyway..

The police were doing their job, the villains were doing theirs.

Tool.
When did I refer to these kids as “Angels”?????

tragedy makes fools of us all

Jeez maelinar.
R u stalking me now….
Sorry to disappoint u but I do actually know the my email address. But thanks for checking!

I will blog appropriately now…..
Whatever the fuck that means!

I think u r an ANAL DORK! I hope that was appropriate enough for u.
Now please get back to your boring APS job and let ppl that want to discuss issues to it with out your ever watchful eye looking over them…..
Or should I say ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
U R BORING

I would be willing to compare your driving skills with those 13, 14 and 15 year old ‘angels’ you speak of that are currently in Quamby, I will even let you choose the vehicle, I guarentee you will lose.

I agree JB, and as just proven, I do it myself…

But not 21 offences in a single article that looks more like a cellphone text than an internet blog message.

and what’s with all that r and u ?

i think this is the last site in the world to be getting snobbish about spelling and grammar.

Yeah, those things LG..

Do you mean apostrophes or exclamation marks?

They were on before!

ORL, welcome to the world of being ignored.

dfr.com.au also came up as a dead link, you may wish to look into the accuracy of your email address.

What will occur from now, is I will continue talking, however no further reference will be made by me of your articles until you learn how to blog appropriately.

I love having the last word…

ORL, joo r a stup1d ce11phone g4n4rati0n d0rk.

Tool
I think that as adults and trained police, they could have looked at the situation and thought of a better way to go about it. Without endangering innocent lives. These ppl were 14, 12 and 15. Now I am assuming u r an adult? Would u think it would be the best idea to get in a high speed pursuit with these kids? Really if u think about it
1. The kids don’t really even know how to drive so would it be a good idea to encourage a high speed pursuit?
2. The crime started around a highly built up area
3. U r in an unmarked police car
4. It is a friday night and there are other police units in the area. (As everyone knows Braddon is prone to police activity on Friday nights so they would have been near

I just don’t think that the police did the right thing and I think some ppl are missing some of the issue. The AFP lied flat out and did the wrong thing!

So my next question is, were the lights on before or after the goofs hit the girl?

!8O!!>:(!?!?!?!@Maelinar

Thank you Maelinar. I guess that is the real issue here. My grammer and spelling!
Why are u on here? To live your dream as an editor that u could never achieve because u were seen as a smart arse or to debate topics?
yes I know that I get ahead of myself and don’t bother being anal and checking my spelling and grammer but it is because I fell v passionate about this topic as I know of it first hand!
Please get back to whatever it is u do or debate the topic not my fucking education.
And I will keep that in mind next time I am before a court.

“Please don’t sentence me Judge……Please”

Thinking in my mind…..I knew I should have listened to bloody Maelinar, my bloody spelling and grammer got me into trouble again!

ORL I think it is apparent that you would like to know what you are talking about but don’t. The day you say a 14 year old can’t be a criminal mastermind makes me shiver. How many atrocities around the world have been performed by children.

But hey I am sure you live in that part of Canberra where there are no families that are on welfare, and drugs don’t exist, and all the children do go to school, and 14 yearl olds don’t steal and drive cars!!!

8 that time

ORL, you are a product of the generation that never learned grammar, spelling, or sentence structure.

I’m afraid the only thing I got out of your comment there was the fact that you used 21 apostrophies.

I have rules set up on my computer that automatically deletes emails that are sent to me that have more than 3 apostrophies in the entire text.

I suggest that you take night classes urgently because there is a likelyhood that you will appear before either a court or a board of enquiry in the immediate future if you are indeed as informed as you say you are, and they may need you to put things a little more clearly.

And in reply to your comment G. I have had shit happen to me before, where police have to get involved. Why do u think I have this attitude towards them? And now this!!!!!!
Yes they are out there to deal with the dregs of society and maybe in the ACT they see it a bit too much. But they are still police that is the career they chose to do and along with it comes a certain responsibility. This is the career they chose. They (should) get specialist training to make decisions looking at all the factors, consequences etc…. in this particular crime they stuffed up. Everyone knows it.
They didn’t make the right decision and then the AFP tried to lie about it, very badly might I add. Why should they try and cover it up? Cos they know something went wrong! It always will untill someone has guts to say lets admit and fix it!
Please G I would like to hear your comments again.

Who am I? I am a friend of the girl who got hit!!! I know exactly what happened!!!!!
Yeah the courts suck for letting the little delinquent off, all of them for that matter! They are responsible for taking someones lives and the friends and family who r invloved!!!! He was on a good bahviour bond for 12mths when this happened. His parents are obviously on drugs too!
There was a persuit! Because when my friends were running to help Clea when she was lying on the ground they nearly got hit by the police car! The lights were flashing and it was at high speed. They saw Clea get hit by a car and kept going.
I don’t know how a person with training and a responsiblity to up hold the law etc etc can make a discision to chase the young kids through Civic even if it wasn’t the interchange. Anywhere through Civic or Braddon is just asking for trouble! It just boggles my mind and everyone else with half a brain that they think the best option is to chase them. They were unmarked! I know 14yr olds and they are not criminal master minds. I’m sure the police could have thought, for ONE second, of a better option than to scare the shit out of them and chase them! Cops are trained to do a job and they f**ked up and then tried to lie about it. We deserve better than to be lied to!People in the ACT should have faith in the AFP and the judicial system. They r idiots!

yeah, What he said!!

i’m still not convinced that a pursuit was actually in place

Who are you ORL. Pull your head in until you have some kind of idea what actually happened. You’re hanging shit on the prople who are actually prepared to get out there and deal with the dregs of society and make hard decisions. I’d like to see your attitude change when someone breaks into your house and kicks your sorry arse – see how fast you want the Police to drive to help you out then.

Police see someone acting suspiciously they pull them over. If those people happen to decide to drive fast through the bus interchange – who’s decision is that?

As FB said – They wouldn’t stop until they were well away and they probably drove through the interchange so that Police would call off the pursuit.

How about you take it back one step and put the blame on the Courts for giving these little pricks lenient sentences time and time again. I would be pretty sure its not the first time they have done it.

G

I’m on the police side RG, but admit perhaps things could have been done a little better.

A bit of forward planning, and a good look at the West Australian way of putting in immobilisers could have seen this whole incident not even occur at all.

I’d actually like this system hooked up to sattelite, so if some prick steals your car, you call the coppers and they immobilise it (based upon registration), the effect – they can’t do burnouts in it and torch it where it’s nice and dark, they’ll have to abandon it where it is.

Long walk home for them, with potential embarrassment and potential to be caught ‘in possession’.

We should be using this as an example why immobilisers are a necessity, rather than bagging out some coppers and criminals doing a hot pursuit, that’s what they’ve been doing since cars were invented.

I’m not saying that police should not pursue suspects. High speed pursuits have their place, but that place is NOT a built up area which is known by all and sundry to be rich in pedestrians.

FB: In answer to your question, yes I would rather that they got away, if the only alternative was the needless death of the innocent pedestrian who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A stolen commodore worth $20,000 is NOT worth the life of an innocent bystander.

Most police forces have strict guidelines as to when a pursuit is permitted, and when it has to be called off. I would be VERY surprised if a high speed pursuit would be permitted under those guidelines through an area like the bus interchange.

Would the cessation of pursuit have changed the behaviour of the offenders? Very doubtful, I agree, but you have to do what you can to minimise the risk to the general public.

I’m not over a particular point yet.

Were the drivers aware they were being tailed by police or were the police flashing them?

Everyone seems to be ganging on the Police pushing the bad guys into making things worse, but if the drivers weren’t aware of the police behind them then this would have happened regardless yes?

I agree that when someone does something that is against the law they should be punished and the police have to attempt to stop these people breaking the law in the first place.
But when Police are persuing 3 under 15yr old boys in a high powered car through the middle of a busy area full of ppl having fun
(that on Fridays nights is usually void of any cars other than a line of taxi’s)
at a high speed then u have to wonder what these police where thinking! Why on earth would they continue a chase through that area!?!?! Then to come out the next day and say that they were not pursuing the car! I think the AFP are on drugs! They looked stupid coming out and saying, that, before anything else, they did not continue the chase. That just screams guilty!
There are witnesses and camera’s all through civic (which they have already said they will ONLY use for the prosecution of the teenagers) that can prove them wrong. I have no faith in the ACT police and this just proves it.
Rather than thinking and acting responsibly they jumped then gun and thought, “Hey lets chase theses young boys til we catch them”. Yes they are criminals none the less and were doign something that is against the law but they knew they were young when they saw them acting “suspiciously”. So I don’t see how it would make sense to pursue these kids at high speed and risk the lives of innocent ppl, the kids and the police. They r kids why not use their authority responsibly? The police saw the kids acting suspiciously well before the pursuit! I believe they could have avoided this situation.
They were in an unmarked car, why not follow them into a safer area and then try and pull them over. Or set up a road block or something….? The criminals and the police didn’t think about the consequences and now a 21yr old is going to die.

I’m not opposed in theory to high speed pursuit, or even the use of Severe Tire Damage devices.

I just want some honesty when things go wrong.

The current silence suggests an attempt to get stories straight.

I’m pretty sure the police would view a suspect who had to keep revising statements and then took a lengthy pause to figure out what they want to say hapenned as one to watch out for.

Truth is easy, lies take time.

Bring back the caltrops.

Being forcibly stopped is a good way of saying ‘you’re now in trouble’.

People will also quickly get the message that wrecked tyres and horrific accidents aren’t a convenient way to begin a police interview.

May sound a bit gory, but it seems more appropriate than letting them have the chance to kill somebody else on the road.

What is the alternative to a police pursuit? Let the criminals get away? It is unfortunate in this incident that someone was hurt but how many more people could be hurt if you let people get away?

I personally know a few people who have decided to run when the police have tried to stop them and I can assure you that they don’t slow down as soon as cops are out of sight. They kept running to get as far from the area as possible.

These kids would probably have driven just a fast through the interchange even if the cops had stopped 5 mins before. They were in a stolen car, they weren’t going to stop or slow down anytime soon. It’s unfortunate that it has ended this way but lets be realistic do you really want thieves to know that if they run the cops won’t chase?

Many years ago I had a friend killed in a motorcycle accident. The police caught him doing 92km in an 80 zone with a roadside radar. When an officer indicated for him to pull over he sped off reaching speeds of up to 200kph. The police didn’t give chase, they didn’t even try to go for the cruiser, they just let him run. 3 suburbs, 10km later he failed to negotiate a corner at high speed and hit a parked car & a tree. He was 200m from home, & he wasn’t slowing down until he got there. Now do you blame the police? If they hadn’t decided to pull him over for something as trivial as 12k’s over the limit on a clear day then he would still be here? I thought that for a few years. I came to realise that the cops were just doing they’re job.

There was an incident in the US in the early 80’s where the police tried to pull over a van with stolen plates. The van took off & was been driver very erratically, so the cops decided not to pursue. Several years later it was discovered that the van was been driven by two rapists/serial killers and that they had two 14 year old girls in the back who they later raped and tortured. The two men went on to rape & kill 6 more girls before being caught.

The other thing that concerns me is that the police would still be copping flak if the opposite had happened. Imagine the outcry if the kids had hit the girl & then run with no sign of the police?

There are two completely separate issues here: firstly the actions of the alleged offenders, and secondly whether the police were engaged in a high speed pursuit at the time of the incident.

Nobody here is going to voice any support for the alleged offenders. What they did was wrong, and I hope they get put away for a long time if they are found guilty.

Now we come to the actions of the police.

Were they involved in a high speed pursuit through the bus interchage? I don’t know – I wasn’t there, and don’t know any of the witnesses to know what their credibility is.

IF the police were involved in a high speed pursuit at the time (and it’s a big IF), then this would definitely be regarded as a contributing factor in the incident. I say “contributing factor”, not the whole reason for the incident. Ultimately that responsibility has to lie in the hands of the driver of the hit-and-run vehicle.

However, a high speed pursuit through a built up area like Civic (let alone through a pedestrian rich area like the interchange) would be exceedingly dangerous, and should have been called off immediately, even if it meant the escape of the offenders. The risk to human life is simply too high when measured against a property offence (stealing a car).

IF there was a high speed pursuit in progress, then the police are also guilty of lieing to the public.

I guess the truth will come out at the trial.

Yeah. I have to agree with you re the police media. My dealings with ‘Sandy’ have not been rewarding.

I keep an open mind on the possibility of eye-witnesses being drunk/drugged, cop haters, or famewhores(or any combo thereof).

I’ll confess that watching the process of the Met in London launch a vilification campaign against a man they’d executed in cold blood has got my blood up, for all that it’s a different force in a different country there are cultural similarities.

My own experience of police media (who are not sworn officers, probably for good reasons) here in the ACT has been such that I trust them not at all.

Western Australia have imobilisers fitted to cars as part of registration. If you don’t have one no rego. It is a good system that should be in place here.

I have seen Police pull heaps of people over coming out of Pitts car park. Any one of those cars could have caused a similar incident if the driver had decided to run.

Most people are law abiding and if hailed by the Police stop. There are those out there that don’t care. They also don’t care if they steal your car or break into your house.

How pissed were our star witnesses? I know Luke and he doesn’t mind a drop.

Johnboy, you seem a bit cranky over this one.

G

Damn, now the wallopers have more ammo for that “speed kills” rubbish.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story

I think we should separate out two things in the statement by Bicevskis – (a) his estimate of the vehicles’ speed; and (b) the proximity of the police. I would say the first is likely to be more unreliable, but even if it is it doesn’t really change his assessment of the second.

Never had that sort of incident.

I’m not anti-copper, in fact some of my best friends are in the police force

But police forces are given great powers and need to be ver carefully scrutinised as a result. And in Australia the record is pretty poor for their ability to keep themselves clean.

And my personal experience of the honesty of the force in their public communications has been a poor one.

Johnboy, you always been anti-copper? Or is there a little incident in the past?

Confess.

The more adventurous kids in my year were stealing cars and joy-riding from about year 10

let me tell you there was a lot of screaming engines doing 60 in first gear while the figured things out.

most of them have gone on to be fine upstanding members of the community for what it’s worth.

methinks society is progressing to the point that all cars need to be fitted with remote control immobilisers.

problem solved for a myriad of issues..

No point speculating on what may or may not have been a chase; it seems it will be cleared up one way or another.

What’s disgusting is that we have 13 – 15 y.o. kids who are stealing cars, then running from the cops and finally running an innocent down.

Kids don’t wake up one morning and decide this is how they want to spend a day. I want to know who taught kids of that age how to drive? Who taught them how to steal a car? WTF?

The parents and guardians of these kids have blood on their hands as well. This only thing outweighing the tragedy of this event is the outragious actions of these children.

And the kids shouldn’t have been driving it.

But if everything was done by the book then i’d say, based on the outcome, that the book needs looking at.

Ah Johnboy, I agree with you but can I say this, when we are dealing with the wasted death of a young girl with her whole life ahead of her, I cannot see a PR stunt neing pulled. You should know the cops are a public servant organisation just like everyone, image is everything, and if you can deflect bad publicity by putting an individual to blame it will happen, and it hasn’t happened…

At the end of the day the car shouldn’t have been in the interchange – period!

Love your work Jazz!

i’ve been chatting to someone else who witnessed the impact. Granted, this is totally hearsay but She doesn’t recall the police being anywhere near fleeing car when the girl was hit. Hardly what you’d call a high speed pursuit.

I wasn’t referring to a media release, i was referring to your comments.

“I just don’t know why, even after a media release by the cops that it wasn’t a high speed chase, that people think there was.”

I’m reasonably sure that a very narrow definition of truth could be applied to the police statements. But I know how the PR game works and in my view that sort of narrow language to a non-technical audience constitutes deceit.

Police PR, the world over, needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

I suppose all PR does, but credulous fools think the police work to a higher standard that I can’t say I’ve observed.

Children, settle…..

For one we don’t know the full facts. Lets wait and see.

And for as much as I don’t want to agree with him, the Pratt has the most logical suggestion to date regarding the cameras.

And my point is that you are referring to ‘one’ press release, whilst I refer to another.

Who is right, who is wrong? It is a sad day when people are openly talking about corruption by suggesting the coppers are openly lying, and lying on record…

Excuse me?

They were following a car travelling at 80km through a defacto pedestrian area.

What sophist definition of “High Speed Pursuit” are you applying in order to swallow that press release Tool?

I just don’t know why, even after a media release by the cops that it wasn’t a high speed chase, that people think there was. I for one believe a cop who is willing to put his name to that claim in the media as opposed to some guy who I have never heard of and likely never will.

The whole concept seems not impossible but improbable. Would it be more believable if “joe Smith from nowhere said the cops weren’t speeding’ as opposed to ‘Superintendant lala’? Me thinks that is what people believe.

Is that you vg? We’ve been pining for you.

And the other bystander, Jeremy Pavlovic, was similarly motivated in your view?

Think about it people, how could the version of events as described by ‘my fifteen minutes of fame’ Bicevskis have happened?

If the vehicles have turned in from London Circuit, they would have been travelling at what maybe 20-30km/h tops, then to suggest they have accelerated to 100km/h over the remaining 400m before meeting the next intersection?

Perhaps we should have checked the sobriety level of this clown before we take their comments as gospel.

As noted before, what is there to gain from lying – I am sure the coppers hold slightly more credibility as they are the ones who are going to be in the Coroners Court should the poor girl pass away, not some ‘hero’ bystander…………

The Pratt has rather helpfully pointed out that the CCTV network should have some record of this incident and could usefully be employed to clear up the discrepancies.

only the guilty have anything to fear.

All joyriders are a huge safety risk

but if they’re cruising for girls they are going slow.

and if they’re hooning then they tend to do it out on the parkway where at least if they stuff things up it’s their own delinquent parents who will be shedding the tears.

“And why do we accept Luke Bikevskis version of events and not the coppers?”

At any time when comparing conflicting accounts one needs to ask “Who gains from lying”

Given the absolutely rotten record of the police in being honest about these things and no established benefit to Luke Bikevskis in lying I know where i’d be placing my bet.

Begs the question. Would have the outcome had been any different? Would these little hoodlums have driven slowly and stopped at a pedestrian crossing, bearing in mind that they had no problem in stealing a car.

The Police did not cause the accident. It was the kids that stole the car.

F*ck I wish people would take some bloody responsibility in their lives. From reports they were so young they should have been home in bed.

They move the benchmark for what a high speed chase is so that they can ‘honestly’ say that ‘we weren’t involved in a high speed chase’. IF they were chasing that car through Civic at 80 clicks then they deserve to be held accountable. What exactly does a high speed pursuit achieve?

And why do we accept Luke Bikevskis version of events and not the coppers?

“… The Commodore took off really fast and I think the only reason it would’ve is that the AFP car was that close and the sirens were blaring.”

Maye it should have stopped?

I just think that maybe we’re too quick to judge the police. These idiots were probably driving irresponsibly before being pursued, and probably would have continued to do so had the pursuit ended. They are the ones at fault here, first and foremost.

Whether the police should have acted differently is an important question, but let’s not kid ourselves that they caused this accident.

I don’t think you can say that had they acted differently the woman woiuld not have been injured – these reckless fools could have just as easily caused an accident were they not being chased.

methinks society is progressing to the point that all cars need to be fitted with remote control immobilisers.

problem solved for a myriad of issues..

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