8 October 2010

ACT Police want more Tasers

| johnboy
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The Australian Federal Police Association has sent out a circular calling for more Tasers while the rest of Australia is wondering if they’re such a good idea.

Dear XXXXX ,

As some members may be aware, during the recent federal election campaign the AFPA lobbied for the funding of Tasers (or similar devices) for general-duty officers in the ACT.

Currently, Tasers are only issued to the Special Response Service in the ACT and not at all within the broader AFP.

Yesterday, AFPA CEO Jim Torr renewed the call for the roll-out of Tasers in an interview with ABC Local Radio. In the interview, he reiterated the case for the general issue of Tasers and extended the ambit of our request to include AFP Officers in all States and Territories albeit with ACT Policing remaining the number one priority.

The AFPA has released a great deal of material over the last two years regarding the benefits of Tasers over traditional use of force options. Members are no doubt aware of these arguments by now and they do not need to be repeated here.

However, if you are interested in the latest arguments put forward by the Association, the ABC News article can be accessed at this link.

The link also provides access to Ross Solly’s full interview of Jim Torr as well as a further interview with the ACT Attorney-General, Simon Corbell, on the issue of Tasers and their potential roll-out in the ACT.

On the one hand you’d much rather be tased than shot with a 9mm Glock.

On the other hand non-lethal weapons tend to get used a lot more.

Over to you Rioters.

Should more ACT Police have Tasers?

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p1 said :

Jim Jones said :

To be fair, there are numerous documented cases of police using violence to intimidate restrained clients, some of which have involved tasers, some of which end in the death of the ‘client’.

I love the reference to people the cops lock up as clients. I think I will have to use that for all crims from now on.

I think that is because they can’t call them scum criminals….

Timberwolf6512:19 pm 27 Oct 10

I would rather be shot in the leg than tasered, I hate anything that will send an electrical current through me, freaks me out:)But it comes down to if you don’t want to be tasered then don’t do the crime.

Jim Jones said :

Spideydog said :

fgzk said :

Tooks

“Yep, happens all the time. And you would know, how?”

I can read. It happens.

Yeah, because sensationalised media stories devoid of actual facts is good reading and entertainment, but can often come at the price of truth.

To be fair, there are numerous documented cases of police using violence to intimidate restrained clients, some of which have involved tasers, some of which end in the death of the ‘client’.

To write this off as baseless, sensationalised media stories because it doesn’t suit your argument is pretty stupid.

Yep, it does happen (you’d probably be hard-pressed finding a recent example in the ACT though), but should the actions of a minority of bad apples prevent the other officers from having access to these types of tools?

I’m not particularly for Tasers, but nor am I against them either. I certainly don’t think they should be used as compliance tools, like you often see in clips from the USA.

From what I’ve read, many of the deaths worldwide attributed to Taser use are due to ‘excited delirium’, multiple shocks or prolonged shocks (sometimes by more than one officer at a time). If used as intended, I believe they’re a fairly safe option. Obviously training and accountabiliy are the key.

It should also be noted that many of the stats for Taser-related deaths include civilian-owned weapons, and do not just refer to law enforcement use.

Jim Jones said :

Spideydog said :

fgzk said :

Tooks

“Yep, happens all the time. And you would know, how?”

I can read. It happens.

Yeah, because sensationalised media stories devoid of actual facts is good reading and entertainment, but can often come at the price of truth.

To be fair, there are numerous documented cases of police using violence to intimidate restrained clients, some of which have involved tasers, some of which end in the death of the ‘client’.

To write this off as baseless, sensationalised media stories because it doesn’t suit your argument is pretty stupid.

To change the tone of what someone else has written to suit your argument and try and make you look smart, is pretty stupid Jim Jones.

Once again shooting from the hip with no concept on what was actually written.

I have no doubt that the described behaviour has occurred and I also have no doubt that there will be instances of it in the future (sadly) But what fgzk was insinuating was this behaviour was commonplace and police enjoyed taunting and bullying citizens. Opinions of these types are often the result of sensationalised media reporting, not from personal experience or from research from reputable sources. THAT, is the point I was making, which you obviously missed …….

If this is common place, you should be able to provide some links to these facts (Australian cases mind you, were not American) to show that it not only happens a lot, but also frequently.

Hells_Bells744:15 pm 14 Oct 10

I could cuddle you, Special G, you’re so reasonable generally! Is okay, I shall admire from afar 😉

Oh, I could’ve quite happily cuddled a group of three policemen in the Mall the other day, yummy.. my boyfriend wasn’t too impressed when I drooled after them and said they could arrest me anyday.

Mmmmm.. you sure they can’t be more cuddly?

The whole client thing comes from people wanting Police forces to be referred to as a Police service. PC crap using fancy words to tone down the image to make Police seem more cuddly.

It all comes down to what is reasonable in the circumstances. The force options available to the Police to get the job done are from simply being there to lethal. Tasers are simply another option available.

There will always be some form of Police crossing the line. That is why there are internal investigation bodies and oversight bodies to ensure it is dealt with appropriately.

Yeah, that whole ‘client’ thing is just freaking awful (I cut and pasted that from another poster).

Almost as bad as when people are referred to as ‘consumers’ instead of ‘citizens’ or whatever.

Jim Jones said :

To be fair, there are numerous documented cases of police using violence to intimidate restrained clients, some of which have involved tasers, some of which end in the death of the ‘client’.

I love the reference to people the cops lock up as clients. I think I will have to use that for all crims from now on.

Spideydog said :

fgzk said :

Tooks

“Yep, happens all the time. And you would know, how?”

I can read. It happens.

Yeah, because sensationalised media stories devoid of actual facts is good reading and entertainment, but can often come at the price of truth.

To be fair, there are numerous documented cases of police using violence to intimidate restrained clients, some of which have involved tasers, some of which end in the death of the ‘client’.

To write this off as baseless, sensationalised media stories because it doesn’t suit your argument is pretty stupid.

vg said :

“Capsicum spray is bad enough”

Its not actually. Short term pain and stinging, but it goes….speaking from experience at having been exposed to it probably a gazillion times more than you

I’ve had some exposure to capsicum spray. It does hurt – but not as much as…. well, let’s just say you need to be *really* careful what parts of the body you touch after you’ve been chopping jalapeno peppers, even if you’ve washed your hands.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

*coffee nose spurt*

lol

fgzk said :

Tooks

“Yep, happens all the time. And you would know, how?”

I can read. It happens.

Yeah, because sensationalised media stories devoid of actual facts is good reading and entertainment, but can often come at the price of truth.

Woody Mann-Caruso9:27 am 14 Oct 10

*coffee nose spurt*

Do it, vg, do it!

VG why don’t you just look me up on the puter, then drop round and show me who the tough guy is. You could taser me till I confirm that you are the best and fairest policeman ever to type on the net.

Tooks

“Yep, happens all the time. And you would know, how?”

I can read. It happens.

Has anybody bothered to look into the number of serious injuries and lives saved (on both sides of the fence) by the use of a taser as opposed to a firearm?

“I suppose for them to get off as tough guys doing a tough job…”

As opposed to tough guys on the internet who’s real name is ‘fgzk’?

“Tasers are lethal weapons and weapons of torture”

I think you will actually find broomstick handles have demonstrably been used more as instruments of torture over the years than tasers. Perhaps janitors and cleaners should be sequestered away somewhere to protect your sensitive nature.

“Capsicum spray is bad enough”

Its not actually. Short term pain and stinging, but it goes….speaking from experience at having been exposed to it probably a gazillion times more than you

As long as the police actually go to jaol when they assault someone with a taser.

It’s jail or gaol.

Police using violence to intimidate restrained clients

Yep, happens all the time. And you would know, how?

But the whining police will just make up some crap why electrifying people to gain compliance is necessary

Yes, police regularly kill people to gain compliance.

In Victoria when capsicum spray was introduced its first use was against striking primary school teachers

Did a bit of a search, but couldn’t find the story. Do you have a link?

pete74au said :

Tasers are lethal weapons and weapons of torture, as evidenced across the world and more recently all jurisdictions in Oz. Police have little compunction about using these lethal weapons as they are taught they are “safe” some police even think they are fun to play with.

Capsicum spray is bad enough but keep Tasers off the streets and out of the hands of police.

Guns are lethal weapons too. So are fists. I personally think police should just run away when things get violent, that way no one gets hurt.

Tasers are lethal weapons and weapons of torture, as evidenced across the world and more recently all jurisdictions in Oz. Police have little compunction about using these lethal weapons as they are taught they are “safe” some police even think they are fun to play with.

Capsicum spray is bad enough but keep Tasers off the streets and out of the hands of police.

As long as the police actually go to jaol when they assault someone with a taser. You know the kind of thing. Police using violence to intimidate restrained clients. Sure it does not happen. But when it does then all the officers should be charged with assault. But the whining police will just make up some crap why electrifying people to gain compliance is necessary. I suppose for them to get off as tough guys doing a tough job…

How many extra deaths a year will be required to gain compliance? One

Its all good to think that these things happen only to criminals. In Victoria when capsicum spray was introduced its first use was against striking primary school teachers.

Pommy bastard10:30 am 11 Oct 10

Davo111 said :

totally against the idea of tasers. Just look at the US police force who use them as a torture device.

You’re never going to get far in life, by basing your perspectives on what happens in “Dumfucistan”.

totally against the idea of tasers. Just look at the US police force who use them as a torture device.

georgesgenitals11:57 pm 10 Oct 10

ExFeds said :

Special G, are you suggesting Bazookas in the City station or as a means of preventing the CWH SGT’s from ever seeing the alleged ‘crooks’?

Bazookas in the City – beats ten shades of shit out of Sex and the City.

Special G, are you suggesting Bazookas in the City station or as a means of preventing the CWH SGT’s from ever seeing the alleged ‘crooks’?

Bazookas could be a good option to stop pursuits. How many crooks are going to try to run when that shit is coming your way.

Forgot to add this before…no wonder the AFPA are coming out of the wood work in such a hurry!!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/rapid-federal-response-could-allay-stun-gun-fears/story-e6frg6zo-1225935666225

farq said :

At least the watch house has cameras.

Thats the only way Birch was caught, doing exactly what you mention exfeds.

Birch seems to be hung out to dry when there were several other reports of excessive use of force (UOF) before the Ombudsman arrived to view ‘other’ footage of ‘other’ alleged offences.

Page 56 UOF 4.96

http://www.police.act.gov.au/~/media/act/pdf/review-of-act-policings-watchhouse-operations-report.ashx

Any money this was a taser matter “don’t use normal extrication techniques”

How about a FULL PUBLIC DISCLOSURE about what really happens in the Watch House.

ExFeds said :

Tasers 🙂 OC 🙂 ASP 🙂 Pistol 🙂 Kicking Punching closed hands open hands pressure points……..

How many options do you need when even detainees in the city watch-house (CANBERRA) being sprayed with capsicum foam, not to control them or even to gain their compliance with orders but ….. ‘YEP’ to punish them!!!!!

Is that right Richard?

At least the watch house has cameras.

Thats the only way Birch was caught, doing exactly what you mention exfeds.

Tasers 🙂 OC 🙂 ASP 🙂 Pistol 🙂 Kicking Punching closed hands open hands pressure points……..

How many options do you need when even detainees in the city watch-house (CANBERRA) being sprayed with capsicum foam, not to control them or even to gain their compliance with orders but ….. ‘YEP’ to punish them!!!!!

Pommy bastard9:58 am 10 Oct 10

Following a recent assault*, I was amazed to find out that pepper sprays and the like were illegal for citizens to carry here.

* Not on me but on a member of my family. If I had been there there, I should imagine there would have been great joy at the RiotAct (by some) on reading the headline “Pommy Bastard arrested and charged with beating a person to a bloody pulp.”

Why limit it to cops? Every adult australian should be required to carry a video equipped bazooka at all times.

Sure bring in video recorders for Police to carry. In some situations they are not appropriate, in others they would be excellent. It would be great if every time I had to use force it was on video – makes it that much easier to prove the resist charge. Court gets to hear it from the offenders mouth – when they are behaving like they do – not making up some story sitting in a suit with some lawyer spinning some bullshit.

My theory is that if force has to be used the person should be wearing a resist/obstruct/hinder Police charge.

Tooks said :

I think personal video recorders worn by officers would be a long way off, considering general duties patrol cars don’t even have onboard cameras yet.

Well maybe on board cameras could should be considered instead of tasers.

Imagine if footage existed of the Grimm speeding incident.

I can’t imagine the police will be using tasers on everyone. If some iced up/drunk idiot is going to start swinging at them they deserve 50,000 volts and I hope it hurts!

farq said :

Tooks said :

Do you honestly think people at their worst (going through mental health issues, domestic violence etc) would appreciate being filmed by police? You don’t think it would arc anyone up at all?

That is a fair point.

If the video/audio is stored securely and only ever retrieved if needed in court or by the ombudsman, I think on balance it would still be a useful safeguard.

With sufficient safeguards, cops can carry bazookas for all I care.

Bazookas! Cool!

I think personal video recorders worn by officers would be a long way off, considering general duties patrol cars don’t even have onboard cameras yet.

Tooks said :

Do you honestly think people at their worst (going through mental health issues, domestic violence etc) would appreciate being filmed by police? You don’t think it would arc anyone up at all?

That is a fair point.

If the video/audio is stored securely and only ever retrieved if needed in court or by the ombudsman, I think on balance it would still be a useful safeguard.

With sufficient safeguards, cops can carry bazookas for all I care.

“I think most civil libertarian groups would happily support cops filming their shift.”

I think you will find contrary. Especially when court proceedings no longer become the crook’s word v the Police’s word. When it becomes the word of the Police PLUS the video eveidence you will find the ‘libertarians’ bleating quite loudly.

Indeed if they were true libertarians they would come out and protest on behalf of the Police for the this intrusion into their lives.

” So should all public servants, ACTFB, ACTAS, doctors, nurses, tradies, vets, postal workers, ACTEW staff, bartenders, politicians etc… just to make sure they too are honest. After all who can you trust nowdays?

The aforementioned don’t have the power to detain or use force.”

You might want to check what certain people in those occupations can and can’t do and re-post with what you’ve learnt. For starters the Firies can use force to execute certian parts of their role in putting out fires. Doctors can have force used on involuntary patients under certain circumstances. I’ll leave you with some homework on the rest.

malbert said :

DJ said :

So should all public servants, ACTFB, ACTAS, doctors, nurses, tradies, vets, postal workers, ACTEW staff, bartenders, politicians etc… just to make sure they too are honest. After all who can you trust nowdays?

The aforementioned don’t have the power to detain or use force.

Hmmmm, but I see in the media numerous other groups and individuals committing corrupt and illegal activities far more than police seem to have. They all should be filmed 24/7 as well ……. There is reasonableness and then there is idiocy !!!! Don’t get me wrong, audio/video is good, it would minimise vexatious complaints, but there is a limit and privacy issues.

malbert said :

DJ said :

So should all public servants, ACTFB, ACTAS, doctors, nurses, tradies, vets, postal workers, ACTEW staff, bartenders, politicians etc… just to make sure they too are honest. After all who can you trust nowdays?

The aforementioned don’t have the power to detain or use force.

Yes they do, as do all citizens (I get your point though).

farq said :

DJ said :

Seems that what you say (Farq) is unlikely to be taken too seriously considering your previous anti Police stance.

It’s hard to take what you say seriously (DJ) seeing your previous one-eyed pro-police stance.

I also like how you say ‘civil libertarians’ like they are worst people around, really shows your colours.

I think most civil libertarian groups would happily support cops filming their shift. Now the technology is available, it’s win win for the cops and public.

You have absolutely no concept of the real work farq. What civil libertarians have you consulted with that view?

I think the taser’s should be used in court for dangerous criminals, since here in Canberra we are the only state that don’t handcuff their prisoner’s inside our courts!

farq said :

DJ said :

Seems that what you say (Farq) is unlikely to be taken too seriously considering your previous anti Police stance.

It’s hard to take what you say seriously (DJ) seeing your previous one-eyed pro-police stance.

I also like how you say ‘civil libertarians’ like they are worst people around, really shows your colours.

I think most civil libertarian groups would happily support cops filming their shift. Now the technology is available, it’s win win for the cops and public.

Do you honestly think people at their worst (going through mental health issues, domestic violence etc) would appreciate being filmed by police? You don’t think it would arc anyone up at all?

DJ said :

Seems that what you say (Farq) is unlikely to be taken too seriously considering your previous anti Police stance.

It’s hard to take what you say seriously (DJ) seeing your previous one-eyed pro-police stance.

I also like how you say ‘civil libertarians’ like they are worst people around, really shows your colours.

I think most civil libertarian groups would happily support cops filming their shift. Now the technology is available, it’s win win for the cops and public.

DJ said :

So should all public servants, ACTFB, ACTAS, doctors, nurses, tradies, vets, postal workers, ACTEW staff, bartenders, politicians etc… just to make sure they too are honest. After all who can you trust nowdays?

The aforementioned don’t have the power to detain or use force.

exfed2 said :

DJ said :

when dealing with situations that almost none of you will ever face?!

Oh look at that, super heros…….. please. It’s the people in the job that don’t get on public forums like this and waffle on like you have that are fine but the certain types that carry on like this that are the concern. The AFP must have a special team dedicated to jumping on here and defending them every time there is ANYTHING said about them 🙂 PPCT (Public Perception Correction Team)

And yes allow the taser. Talk of abuse etc is unfounded here especially when you consider that OC could just as easily be abused. (Talking about street level not watch house)

You will give yourself an ulcer feeding your hate of the afp ….. There are better things in life to worry about than living out your vendetta.

Exfed2 – Just what were you before becoming ‘ex’ that has left you so unsatisfied and jaded? Just keep grinding that axe and fishing.

Did you mean heroes or heros? Not super heroes at all and it was never suggested. If you actually happen to be an ‘ex’ who did something for the public in the ACT you would know better – obviously not.

No need for a cape or undies on the outside unless that’s your cup of tea. But feel free to go off an a tangent and display ignorance with your comments.

exfed2 said :

DJ said :

when dealing with situations that almost none of you will ever face?!

Oh look at that, super heros…….. please. It’s the people in the job that don’t get on public forums like this and waffle on like you have that are fine but the certain types that carry on like this that are the concern. The AFP must have a special team dedicated to jumping on here and defending them every time there is ANYTHING said about them 🙂 PPCT (Public Perception Correction Team)

And yes allow the taser. Talk of abuse etc is unfounded here especially when you consider that OC could just as easily be abused. (Talking about street level not watch house)

In Australia we prefer to think of ourselves as superheroes, note the spelling for future platitudes.

BTW, you still haven’t answered any questions about the ‘ex-ness’ of yourself. I’m guessing your initials are RC

DJ said :

when dealing with situations that almost none of you will ever face?!

Oh look at that, super heros…….. please. It’s the people in the job that don’t get on public forums like this and waffle on like you have that are fine but the certain types that carry on like this that are the concern. The AFP must have a special team dedicated to jumping on here and defending them every time there is ANYTHING said about them 🙂 PPCT (Public Perception Correction Team)

And yes allow the taser. Talk of abuse etc is unfounded here especially when you consider that OC could just as easily be abused. (Talking about street level not watch house)

farq said :

johnboy said :

Apparently the new model tasers have cameras built in to help with investigations.

Unless the camera has recorded the entire interaction between the cop and the member of the public, all you will see if someone fall over and scream.

The camera needs to record what happened before the Taser was used.

I say cops should wear a little video camera their entire shift. Protects the cops as well as protecting members of the public who encounter cops.

If the cops have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear about having their shift recorded.

That’s going over the top farq, but I wouldn’t expect anything less from you. If people don’t have anything to hide then police should be able search whoever and whatever they like, oh, that’s right ….. Civil liberties come in here (and with good reason) would you agree to wear a audio/video recorder for your entire work day (if you work) I am pretty sure you wouldn’t, it would get in the way of your tin foil hat.

Recording interactions with the public, no dramas but what you suggest is farqsicle …..

Skidbladnir said :

Coming up and enforcing with the guidelines (with easy-to-follow acceptable-use procedures and strict unacceptable-use penalties) on how to best use tasers should occur through legitimate and evidence-based rationalisations (such as on cost, benefit, risk, and threat-to-public safety) but should be worked out beforehand instead of having officers work out their own preferred methods.

Agreed.

Special G said :

People saying that Police are fairly ordinary would be wrong. Ordinary people do not put themselves in the positions that Police do as part of their job. Ordinary people do not put themselves in harms way on purpose to protect people they have no connection to. Ordinary people do not have to deal with people who are happy to stab/spit on/throw shit at/ them simply because of the uniforn they wear.

To clarify, when I said police were fairly ordinary people, I didn’t mean it in a derogatory way. I meant it in the sense that they generally have the same weaknesses as everyone else, i.e. they are sometimes subject to poor judgement and some will abuse their position of power.

Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the police and the work they do, but being merely human, they aren’t infallible in their conduct.

farq said :

johnboy said :

Apparently the new model tasers have cameras built in to help with investigations.

Unless the camera has recorded the entire interaction between the cop and the member of the public, all you will see if someone fall over and scream.

The camera needs to record what happened before the Taser was used.

I say cops should wear a little video camera their entire shift. Protects the cops as well as protecting members of the public who encounter cops.

If the cops have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear about having their shift recorded.

So should all public servants, ACTFB, ACTAS, doctors, nurses, tradies, vets, postal workers, ACTEW staff, bartenders, politicians etc… just to make sure they too are honest. After all who can you trust nowdays?

Seems that what you say (Farq) is unlikely to be taken too seriously considering your previous anti Police stance. That said I do like the idea of using a camera to protect the Police from the vindictive claims they are the subject of. The only hiccup I foresee is the civil libertarians who so valiantly protect the community! I am more than happy to be corrected but I understand they are very much against it. After all, who wants a camera in their face recording them when they are either an innocent victim or the alleged offender who is having a bad day? What about the surrounding people? Consent issues?

johnboy said :

Apparently the new model tasers have cameras built in to help with investigations.

I said i’d be more relaxed, but still not wholly comfortable with the idea.
Will it record why and under what circumstances a subject was tased, or do we simply get an album of people screaming while being electrocuted?

If police are doing nothing wrong and are doing it for the sake of protecting the public from itself, they should be more okay with being filmed when on street-shift, since then their good behaviours are also on record and available for showing to a public who wants police trust to be earned.

(PS: I realise I’m using ‘nothing to hide, nothing to fear’ here, but if Big Brother doesn’t like being Big Brothered…)

farq said :

Unless the camera has recorded the entire interaction between the cop and the member of the public, all you will see if someone fall over and scream.

True, although it might prevent people being tased 15 times once already on the ground…

farq said :

The camera needs to record what happened before the Taser was used.

I think you’ll find the taser records from the moment it is drawn, possibly when the equivalent of the ‘safety’ is disengaged, or when ‘unholstered’.

Or alternately, possibly like those mirror-mounted cameras an Aussie invented several years ago that record constantly, keeping the footage from 15 secs before an impact and 15 secs after, should an impact occur. Wonder why they never ‘took-off’?

How did we get to Rodney King and riots from a simple article requesting the local Police be provided with a simple non-lethal alternative when dealing with situations that almost none of you will ever face? Are people complaining or commenting about something hasn’t happened?

Argh, the sky is falling!

People saying that Police are fairly ordinary would be wrong. Ordinary people do not put themselves in the positions that Police do as part of their job. Ordinary people do not put themselves in harms way on purpose to protect people they have no connection to. Ordinary people do not have to deal with people who are happy to stab/spit on/throw shit at/ them simply because of the uniforn they wear.

As for tasers – they are a great tool – another one which may be used as appropriate. If it is used inappropriately then action should be taken. Even easier with tasers which now have audio/video recording of each and every use.

It is simply another option available.

johnboy said :

Apparently the new model tasers have cameras built in to help with investigations.

Unless the camera has recorded the entire interaction between the cop and the member of the public, all you will see if someone fall over and scream.

The camera needs to record what happened before the Taser was used.

I say cops should wear a little video camera their entire shift. Protects the cops as well as protecting members of the public who encounter cops.

If the cops have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear about having their shift recorded.

I suspect that someone, somewhere, has quite the scrap book of surprised, tased, faces.

georgesgenitals4:33 pm 08 Oct 10

johnboy said :

Apparently the new model tasers have cameras built in to help with investigations.

Sting-Cam?

Pommy bastard4:17 pm 08 Oct 10

Give the police Tazers. If they are used inapropriately by the police, prosecute them to the max.

Hold them to a higher standard than we expect of the public.

This will not stop missuse. But, quite frankly, having dealt with the cops in the ACT at least monthly, if not fortnightly, I can tell you you have a great bunch of people in uniform here. If they are asking for them, give them to them.

Lets not make policing judgements for the ACT on the “what if someone acted like the cops in the Rodney King” scenario.

Let’s not lower ourselves and our police to that (Yank) level.

arescarti42 said :

If properly used as less lethal weapons in situations where lethal force would otherwise have been used, I can only see tasers saving lives.

They minimise loss of life when used correctly, but they’re still lethal.
Weapons don’t typically “Save lives”, thats why they’re treated as threats. Asymmetric threats actually make those on the receiving end compensate by becoming more deperate.

Coming up and enforcing with the guidelines (with easy-to-follow acceptable-use procedures and strict unacceptable-use penalties) on how to best use tasers should occur through legitimate and evidence-based rationalisations (such as on cost, benefit, risk, and threat-to-public safety) but should be worked out beforehand instead of having officers work out their own preferred methods.

Otherwise police associations will proabbly just roll out a variation on one of these three wonderfully simplistic lies:
1) “Police know better than anyone how to encourage compliance from violent members of the public” (Are there no alternate experts involved in public policy?).
2) “Letting an emotional police officer choose when, how long for, and how often a subject deserves to be electrocuted can only save lives” (because apparently their only other option is to shoot people?).
3) “Taser usage will reduce physical violence upon uniformed police officers and members of the public, because people will be concerned about more easily receiving the taser” (Two words: risk compensation).

Consider me to be very cynical about giving police increased power (granting potential to inflict the kind of pain its illegal to subject dogs to) without any increased oversight.
If every occasion that a taser was used was made available by immediate auditable video output or for public inspection by request, I’d be more relaxed about it.

Apparently the new model tasers have cameras built in to help with investigations.

creative_canberran3:49 pm 08 Oct 10

johnboy said :

Rodney King was tased many times before the batons came out.

johnboy said :

Rodney King was tased many times before the batons came out.

That was also 20 years ago, on the other side of the world in a different country with a different police force.

Doesn’t make it right, of course.

Do we really think that sort of incident would be altered by the presence of tasers?

LA Riots occurred not because Rodney King was beaten, but because it was filmed.

And had it stopped with the taser, those riots would never have happened. King was tased twice, the second time putting on the ground in a state that would allow officer to handcuff and arrest him.

Instead, the officers took out batons and started beating him, just as someone began video taping the incident.

The point is anything can become an object capable of inflicting serious injury or causing death, it depends on the user. Had police followed procedure, the incident would have ended after the second taser shot.

georgesgenitals3:30 pm 08 Oct 10

p1 said :

georgesgenitals said :

johnboy said :

Rodney King was tased many times before the batons came out.

That was also 20 years ago, on the other side of the world in a different country with a different police force.

Doesn’t make it right, of course.

Do we really think that sort of incident would be altered by the presence of tasers?

LA Riots occurred not because Rodney King was beaten, but because it was filmed.

BAN CAMCORDERS!

There’s a word for people like you.

Genius!

🙂

georgesgenitals said :

johnboy said :

Rodney King was tased many times before the batons came out.

That was also 20 years ago, on the other side of the world in a different country with a different police force.

Doesn’t make it right, of course.

Do we really think that sort of incident would be altered by the presence of tasers?

LA Riots occurred not because Rodney King was beaten, but because it was filmed.

BAN CAMCORDERS!

Skidbladnir said :

We also know that people will do strange things to people they have no prior emotional attachment to when told that the recipients of electrical shocks aren’t being harmed in any lasting way, especially when told its okay to shock them by people in authority in order to impose the authority’s will.

So we train police in the use non-medical electrical discharges for personal compliance purposes, telling them that to simply threaten electrocuting uncompliant people instead of killing them when they don’t comply is a viable alternative, and from then on they get left to their own judgement calls on the job, and are simply urged to do the right thing?

No scope for problems there at all…

Sure, if you want to look at it that way there are fundamental problems with giving fairly ordinary people weapons and power over other people. Unfortunately it is sort of necessary for maintaining an orderly society.

If properly used as less lethal weapons in situations where lethal force would otherwise have been used, I can only see tasers saving lives.

johnboy said :

Rodney King was tased many times before the batons came out.

And now he’s on Celebrity Rehab with Dr Drew.

georgesgenitals2:48 pm 08 Oct 10

johnboy said :

Rodney King was tased many times before the batons came out.

That was also 20 years ago, on the other side of the world in a different country with a different police force.

Doesn’t make it right, of course.

Do we really think that sort of incident would be altered by the presence of tasers?

georgesgenitals2:42 pm 08 Oct 10

johnboy said :

I we were to decide that it’s OK to brutalise people just because they’re stupid it would be a very different society.

Depends on your definition of stupid.

If stupid means less education, lower socioeconomic bracket then no its not.

If stupid means violently resisting arrest by police, then sure, no problem.

creative_canberran2:38 pm 08 Oct 10

Any type of weapon has the potential to be dangerous. Batons have caused injury and even death, heck, the 1992 Los Angeles riots came about after some officers used batons to beat up a suspect if we look at their effect in the broadest sense. OC spray too has caused fatalities and from what I’ve read, the chemical both lasts longer and has the potential to cause long term harm to the eyes.

That people have died from Taser’s should not be the issue, rather, what proportion of persons tasered have died. Line that statistic up with those of guns, oc and batons and let’s get a real answer. I’m willing to bet that of all the taser deployments world wide, only a tiny proportion have resulted in fatality.

Too many police are getting injured by drunks and thugs in Canberra. OC often doesn’t work, batons require close contact and then you have a gun which is usually deadly. They need another option. If you don’t f**k around, you don’t have anything to worry about. If you do get drunk and start throwing punches… too bad.

Rodney King was tased many times before the batons came out.

georgesgenitals2:34 pm 08 Oct 10

johnboy said :

only the criminals will have anything to fear?

johnboy said :

The educable portion of the community rarely get involved in dust ups with police.

There’s your answer.

I we were to decide that it’s OK to brutalise people just because they’re stupid it would be a very different society.

farq said :

Remember, none of Birch’s co-workers tried to stop him from using OC spray to assault prisoners. They all turned a blind eye.

did birch squirtthem first?

as for batons being used to inflict injury, i thought that a well placed flick with the baton on the knee could collapse a person attempting to remove themself from police apprehension, making cuffing, the next step, easier..?

Erg0 said :

One big difference between a taser and a baton is the range at which they can be used. If someone was coming at me with a knife then I know which I’d rather have.

eugh, knives [shudder] – this is when you shoot! (at least, i would…) 😉

Imagine how Birch would have made use of a Taser….

Remember, none of Birch’s co-workers tried to stop him from using OC spray to assault prisoners. They all turned a blind eye.

arescarti42 said :

So long as police are properly trained on which situations use of a taser is appropriate, and are aware of the potentially lethal nature of the device, then I don’t see any issues.

We know that police are in almost all respects, just normal people and not saints.
We also know that they are hired by the government to directly prevent crime by apprehending criminals, and to also represent enough of a deterrent threat that crime stays down.
We know that people who get given authority and power without oversight have potential to misuse that.
We also know that people will do strange things to people they have no prior emotional attachment to when told that the recipients of electrical shocks aren’t being harmed in any lasting way, especially when told its okay to shock them by people in authority in order to impose the authority’s will.

So we train police in the use non-medical electrical discharges for personal compliance purposes, telling them that to simply threaten electrocuting uncompliant people instead of killing them when they don’t comply is a viable alternative, and from then on they get left to their own judgement calls on the job, and are simply urged to do the right thing?

No scope for problems there at all…

Jethro said :

Thus summing up one the main arguments against taser use. They are NOT meant to be used to force compliance from someone not following instructions. They are suppossed to be used in a threatening situation in which a gun may otherwise need to be used.

Unfortunately, it seems that too many police have seen them as tools simply to force compliance.

And therin lies the problem.

That, in theory, would be solved by training.

But we all know about that little grey area between theory and practise don’t we?

Erg0 said :

One big difference between a taser and a baton is the range at which they can be used. If someone was coming at me with a knife then I know which I’d rather have.

Spot on. The chap in Sefton, Sydney this week who was tased was damn lucky he was not shot with type of knife he was threatening the officer with. (Even though he passed away from an unknown condition)

Having been exposed to both OC spray and taser, only an idiot would ask for the spray and subsequent wait for decontamination again. As has been said though should only be used as a less than lethal option not forcing compliance rather than physically making a subject comply with directions.

luther_bendross1:54 pm 08 Oct 10

More and better training is the answer. I for one don’t have a problem with them used to enforce compliance, however I understand why others do. But it’s not like they’re out tasering (is that a verb now?) old matey at Woolies getting his bread, they are hitting the jerks of society. I’m pretty confident that if I got a skin full one Saturday night, started throwing empty schooners at peoples’ faces and became said jerk, I’d look back a week later and think “yeah, I deserved that.”.

Police need weapons, let’s not kid ourselves. Until they get a board with a nail in it so big that it will destroy us all I won’t be too worried.

One big difference between a taser and a baton is the range at which they can be used. If someone was coming at me with a knife then I know which I’d rather have.

astrojax said :

what’s wrong with the baton?

Surely baton is more likely to cause injury than taser… unless you have a dicky ticker.

astrojax said :

what’s wrong with the baton? i thought that the interim step for police (or policing) from restraining someone with bare hands or shooting them was a baton, and that the long baton with a funky handle long ago replaced the short truncheon favoured by football hooligans back in the old dart in the 60s and 70s… where did this tool go? what sort of training do current policingers get on this weapon in their arsenal these days?

Batons aren’t used for restraining people.

neanderthalsis said :

I think that better training in dealing with confrontational situations would be a more effective move.

Perhaps an education program based on what might happen to Joe Public if they don’t comply with laws/police instruction might be more appropriate? Edumacate the fuck-ups, not the Police trying to do their jobs…

The educable portion of the community rarely get involved in dust ups with police.

astrojax said :

what’s wrong with the baton? i thought that the interim step for police (or policing) from restraining someone with bare hands or shooting them was a baton…

Don’t forget pepper spray…

astrojax said :

and that the long baton with a funky handle long ago replaced the short truncheon favoured by football hooligans back in the old dart in the 60s and 70s… where did this tool go? what sort of training do current policingers get on this weapon in their arsenal these days?

Extendable batons seem more common with most of the worlds cops these days. Not entirely certain what ACT cops carry, but I suspect they have something like this.

Gerry-Built said :

Bring ’em in for sure. They’ll only be used on people who refuse to follow instructions and directions to refrain from doing something illegal anyhow…

Thus summing up one the main arguments against taser use. They are NOT meant to be used to force compliance from someone not following instructions. They are suppossed to be used in a threatening situation in which a gun may otherwise need to be used.

Unfortunately, it seems that too many police have seen them as tools simply to force compliance.

shadow boxer1:26 pm 08 Oct 10

I don’t have an issue if Tasers are used when police confront a clear and present danger to their safety, I do have an issue if they are used to enforce compliance.

These are very different issues

what’s wrong with the baton? i thought that the interim step for police (or policing) from restraining someone with bare hands or shooting them was a baton, and that the long baton with a funky handle long ago replaced the short truncheon favoured by football hooligans back in the old dart in the 60s and 70s… where did this tool go? what sort of training do current policingers get on this weapon in their arsenal these days?

that said, given the inherent risks of using a solid shocking volt on someone, the regulations (and so commensurate penalties for violating these) should be specific and public and appropriate to the tool. tasering someone is fraught with more risk of severley harming someone than simply hitting them, as is shooting, so there needs to be commensurate regulation and instruction on the implement’s use.

johnboy said :

only the criminals will have anything to fear?

as long as they don’t tase me bro.

neanderthalsis1:03 pm 08 Oct 10

I read a report some time ago, released by Amnesty International that examined taser use in the US. Whilst I would normally give little credence to Amnesty, they did cite an example of increased police shootings (handgun, not taser) after tasers were introduced in one jurisdiction. The local police audit branch undertook a review and found that the introduction of tasers had made police less reluctant to use force.

http://educate-yourself.org/pnt/amnestyintnl2004TASERfullreport.shtml

While generally supportive of the introduction of tasers, I think that better training in dealing with confrontational situations would be a more effective move.

Sure, you’ve got a much, much greater chance of dying if the police adjust your attitude by means of a 9mm Glock, but given that people have died after being tasered Tasers should probably not be called non-lethal.

There is evidence both here and overseas (principally the US) that Tasers are increasingly being used to force compliance. While I can completely understand the desire (on the part of police) to tase mouthy, recalcitrant folk who just won’t do what they’re told, dumb insolence should not be a tase-able offence. Police should only be allowed to use a Taser to make their job safer, not easier.

People die of all sorts of things all the time.

I’m all for them. But I would really like to see some seriously stiff regulations concerning when it is appropriate to use one, and a mandatory investigation into each use which is equal (if not more in depth) then that of discharging a fire arm.

I say this not because distrust our polices intentions when it comes to this sort of thing, but rather because history has shown (as JB said), that non-lethal options tend to get used more. Tasers should be used less then guns are now, and their use should replace guns in some situations where they previously should have been used.

Bring ’em in for sure. They’ll only be used on people who refuse to follow instructions and directions to refrain from doing something illegal anyhow…

only the criminals will have anything to fear?

arescarti42 said :

So long as police are properly trained on which situations use of a taser is appropriate, and are aware of the potentially lethal nature of the device, then I don’t see any issues.

+1

I think policebehaviour is more of a problem than the taser itself. Though, we have it nowhere near as bad as the sepos.

Given the rise in crime in the ACT, im all for it. Anything to keep the criminals at bay i say!!

So long as police are properly trained on which situations use of a taser is appropriate, and are aware of the potentially lethal nature of the device, then I don’t see any issues.

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