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Amber light for point to point cameras

By johnboy - 26 August 2011 29

The Greens’ Amanda Bresnan has announced they’ll support point to point cameras in the ACT, but with some conditions.

The Greens have given in-principle support to the use of point to point cameras in the ACT, guaranteeing that they can be used for important road safety measures.

However, the Greens deferred final approval of the legislation, calling for controversial and little-known aspects of the legislation to be subject to wider community debate and human rights analysis.

“For the Greens, speed cameras are very much about road safety. We support new initiatives and new technologies that will help to keep ACT road users safe, and will contribute to a reduction in deaths and injuries that occur on our roads each year,” said Greens Transport spokesperson, Amanda Bresnan MLA.

“Our concern was that some quite controversial uses of collected data were put to the Parliament that were not discussed with the public or properly subjected to privacy and human rights analyses.

“I have written to the ACT Human Rights Commissioner, asking for an analysis of these issues. This is something the Government should have done at the beginning.

What’s Your opinion?


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29 Responses to
Amber light for point to point cameras
watto23 3:35 pm 26 Aug 11

If they really did make the roads safer I’d be happy for them to go in. But they won’t.
Also love to see the statistics for accidents caused by speeding and whether using a phone, or drink driving were also involved and at what speed these fatalities occurred at.

The real issue is there are many repeat offenders allowed to drive again and again.

p1 3:31 pm 26 Aug 11

Mysteryman said :

You’re correct. People don’t realise how many of those ~10 deaths a year are attributed to “speed”. Not many of them. Approximately 20%, last time I checked….

Sooo, hardly any deaths are attributed to speed, yet here we are putting in place a system which targets speeding.

Stats show that unlicensed/unregistered drivers are over represented in accidents. We could be spending the same money on more RAPID systems (and cops to use them), which are proven to catch these unlicensed/unregistered threats.

Chop71 3:14 pm 26 Aug 11

They tried this in Canada, pew pew pew and the problem was fixed.

00davist 3:01 pm 26 Aug 11

Mysteryman said :

I wish the greens would actually review the data concerning speed cameras and their lack of effectiveness in “road safety” and dismiss the idea completely.

I’m glad they are at least thinking about the issue.

They are only lacking in effect becase of the giant advertisments, at least with P2P, you dont get the ‘I’ll just slow for the camera effect.

Sure, you can pull up and wait at the camera, to make sure you keep in time, but really, why speed then?

Camera’s need to be hidden, mobile, and frequent.

If you are not sure weather or not you are in front of one, you will watch your speed!

creative_canberran 2:58 pm 26 Aug 11

Jim Jones said :

creative_canberran said :

I’ve yet to see any evidence that speed camera reduce fatalities.

Start here: http://www.camerassavelives.vic.gov.au/home/road+trauma/research+and+evidence/

A stack of links to Monash University Accident Research Centre (MUARC) reports.

The article says: “Since cameras were introduced in the late 1980s, Victoria’s road toll has more than halved and the 2010 road toll of 288 is the lowest annual road toll since monthly records began back in 1952.”

and

“The eight years from 2003 to 2010 are the eight lowest road toll years since records started in 1952.”

post hoc ergo proper hoc?

Also, I note that those reports linked to on that site all make “crash outcomes” the focus, which is silly given the advances in design and safety over that period. The page doesn’t seem to make reference to a decline in the number of total incidents on the roads, which according to insurers and other sources is actually increasing.

shadow boxer 2:56 pm 26 Aug 11

Mysteryman said :

I wish the greens would actually review the data concerning speed cameras and their lack of effectiveness in “road safety” and dismiss the idea completely.

I’m glad they are at least thinking about the issue.

I thought speed cameras were for black spots, is the GDE a particulalrly accident prone piece of road ? we haven’t even built it or areed a speed limit.

Nothing like waiting a decabe for a piece of infrastructure and then throttling it as soon as it becomes available.

fgzk 2:47 pm 26 Aug 11

Will the data collected from all cameras be available through FOI?

Mysteryman 2:35 pm 26 Aug 11

Bluey said :

creative_canberran said :

I’ve yet to see any evidence that speed camera reduce fatalities.
in fact much of the reduction in fatalities in the past 15yrs has been through advances in car design and safety equipment. Figure I’ve seen suggest the number of actual collisions has increased in that time.

Have you ever noticed that these people always say a line similar to that above:
“…contribute to a reduction in deaths and injuries that occur on our roads each year”

Not reduce collisions or road accident, but the results of them. And not in itself, but “contribute”.

Making things safer doesnt always make things better.

When it was mandated that cars A pillars be made thicker to withstand rollovers (very rare) how many small to medium collisions now occur due to a car in the A pillar blind spot?

I am absolutely against P2P speed cameras. In a jurisdiction as small as canberra averaging ~10 deaths a year this is a HUGE waste of money and impost on the community. I expect to see roads crawl to a halt at the 2nd camera point as people try and bring their average speed down.

How many cops and cop cars with RAPID could we get for the same money? way better value than Big Brother watching our every move.

You’re correct. People don’t realise how many of those ~10 deaths a year are attributed to “speed”. Not many of them. Approximately 20%, last time I checked. And the speed in those accidents was well above the posted limited – the sort of dangerous behaviour that takes place regardless of speed cameras.

More police on the road is one of the correct answers to the question of road safety in the ACT. Speed cameras are not.

Jim Jones 2:30 pm 26 Aug 11

creative_canberran said :

I’ve yet to see any evidence that speed camera reduce fatalities.

Start here: http://www.camerassavelives.vic.gov.au/home/road+trauma/research+and+evidence/

A stack of links to Monash University Accident Research Centre (MUARC) reports.

Bluey 2:20 pm 26 Aug 11

creative_canberran said :

I’ve yet to see any evidence that speed camera reduce fatalities.
in fact much of the reduction in fatalities in the past 15yrs has been through advances in car design and safety equipment. Figure I’ve seen suggest the number of actual collisions has increased in that time.

Have you ever noticed that these people always say a line similar to that above:
“…contribute to a reduction in deaths and injuries that occur on our roads each year”

Not reduce collisions or road accident, but the results of them. And not in itself, but “contribute”.

Making things safer doesnt always make things better.

When it was mandated that cars A pillars be made thicker to withstand rollovers (very rare) how many small to medium collisions now occur due to a car in the A pillar blind spot?

I am absolutely against P2P speed cameras. In a jurisdiction as small as canberra averaging ~10 deaths a year this is a HUGE waste of money and impost on the community. I expect to see roads crawl to a halt at the 2nd camera point as people try and bring their average speed down.

How many cops and cop cars with RAPID could we get for the same money? way better value than Big Brother watching our every move.

creative_canberran 12:20 pm 26 Aug 11

I’ve yet to see any evidence that speed camera reduce fatalities.
in fact much of the reduction in fatalities in the past 15yrs has been through advances in car design and safety equipment. Figure I’ve seen suggest the number of actual collisions has increased in that time.

Have you ever noticed that these people always say a line similar to that above:
“…contribute to a reduction in deaths and injuries that occur on our roads each year”

Not reduce collisions or road accident, but the results of them. And not in itself, but “contribute”.

Mysteryman 12:14 pm 26 Aug 11

I wish the greens would actually review the data concerning speed cameras and their lack of effectiveness in “road safety” and dismiss the idea completely.

I’m glad they are at least thinking about the issue.

Captain RAAF 11:56 am 26 Aug 11

All it will take is one disgruntled employee who needs some evidence of some wrong doing, like an extra-marital affair for instance, to access the files, gain the proof they need, act on that proof and then the cameras will start getting set on fire etc.

You can only push the people so far and MOST people believe that MOST speed cameras are a revenue rasining con and they won’t stand for the government collecting intel on their movements. With the number of fatalities in the ACT due to excessive speed, is there really a requirement for this technology here?

fgzk 11:46 am 26 Aug 11

Is this the debate we need to have

Are these cameras also a ” RAPID ” type data collection point?

Is it possible to view live data of number plates being tracked?

Do the AFP have access to the data collected?

Yes ……From the report

P2P systems also have the potential to be used for purposes other than the enforcement of average speed
offences, including:
– fixed speed offences;
– bus lane enforcement;
– unregistered and uninsured vehicles;
– unlicensed drivers;
– providing traffic data to a Traffic Management Centre (TMC);
– Road User pricing;
– identifying vehicles associated with crime; and
– mass surveillance.

The AFP have indicated a desire to consider the use of ANPR technology to gather intelligence for non-traffic
related offences such as stolen vehicles and vehicles associated with crime. AFP believes the storage of images
for a defined period would prove beneficial from a crime prevention and detection perspective.
Use of the P2P for these purposes would technically be achieved through the use of ‘hotlists’ as described in
Section 1.6.1. However, it is more likely to require integration with a real time alerting mechanism so that police
officers can be despatched to intercept.
This application potentially represents ‘function creep’ and will raise community concerns about the purpose of the
system and the privacy of their data. AFP believes by articulating a clear purpose the practice may be accepted.
However, there are purposes for which community support may be forthcoming, such as vehicles associated with
kidnapping or abductions.

The primary issue with this application is not technical but social. Mass surveillance would represent a significant
policy shift and raise human rights and civil liberties concerns. In particular there is concern at the danger of
“function creep” and this data becoming available to other agencies (welfare, tax) and private organisations and
individuals. Submissions by the Office of the Privacy commissioner to the Queensland Parliamentary TravelSafe
Committee on this matter are discussed further in Section 8.5.

Quoted from the June RA thread: http://the-riotact.com/point-to-point-camera-legislation-introduced/49220/comment-page-3#comments

zippyzippy 11:19 am 26 Aug 11

This was in the Canberra times today. The ‘controversial use” is the fact that the government wants to store photos of every vehicle that passes for future use, whether it was speeding or not. Seems sensible to take some care before agreeing to an extra use like that. (and I just read a comment from someone on another topic where they seemed concerned the greens were making Canberra a big brother state, so they should appreciate this particular move).

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