Another ADFA cadet arrested for sexual offences

Just back on the original topic, he was not even an Australian service-person.

This may or may not change the bearing of this discussion.

Jim Jones said :

PBO said :

I’m going to sit back and watch this one as LSWCHP and Thumper are doing a grand job of nailing down reality.

Curiously, what was your role in East Timor Truthiness?

I support Australian military action in East Timor – but do you really think that there aren’t any d***heads in the military? That public relations can’t be improved?

The dude has related one instance where there were jerkwads doing what jerkwads do, and it’s being denied because ‘it’s a rifle, not a gun’, ‘they’re soldiers, not flower arrangers’ (WTF does this mean? It’s okay to be a jerkwad if you’re in the army?)

How about a dose of actual reality – in which the black and white view of the armed forces is recognised to be a little more grey.

Or are we all gonna keep fawning over the immortal diggers who can do no wrong and are the eternal guardians of freedom?

Standard tactics, hey Jim? Dump on people for saying things that they never said. Goebbels was a master of that sort of nonsense too, but it doesn’t always work.

I never said there were no dickheads in the military. I’ve known heaps of them. I believe ADF PR can certainly be improved. I never stated anywhere that diggers can do no wrong (quite the opposite) or that they’re eternal guardians of freedom. Whenever you attempt to put words in my mouth like that, I’ll clarify your obfuscations before I continue, so it might save us all a lot of time if you don’t do it.

Anyway…

The first para of what Truthiness wrote was a little yarn about drunk obnoxious soldiers stirring up the locals in a pub while armed with machine guns and live ammo.

In my response, I acknowledged that there may well have been some drunk diggers behaving badly. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time. But the “machine gun” bit was very important because it was simply impossible. Groups of Australian soldiers aren’t armed with machine guns, so it seemed very likely that there was a little poetic licence at work there, to make the story sound better. After all, a story about a group of drunks at Mooseheads doesn’t sound nearly as interesting as a group of drunks at Mooseheads carrying machine guns, does it?

More importantly, the theme of what Truthiness was writing about was summed up in his last, offensive, para about Australian boots on other peoples necks. Going from a bunch of individual diggers behaving badly in a pub (with or without machine guns) to boots on people’s necks as national policy seems to be drawing a pretty long bow.

We seemed to have travelled quite a distance from an ADFA cadet behaving badly. 🙂

LSWCHP said :

All the killing machines from Kapooka would be an easily defeated rabble without the presence of the ADFA graduates who get all the weapons pointed in the right direction at the right time.

That’s not how the Australian Army works. The killing machines get the job done *despite* the pricks covered in pigeon-poo trying to hinder them.
As you should well know, these junior officers you refer to are told exactly what to do by their platoon sergeants.

Anyway, a tomato, although a fruit, is definitely not a very fruity fruit, as fruit go.

We can agree on that 🙂

I support Australian military action in East Timor – but do you really think that there aren’t any d***heads in the military? That public relations can’t be improved?

Of course there a d*ckheads in the military. It’s like pretty much every other walk of life in that regard.

I served with plenty of them that’s for sure.

I was unaware that the choices for armed forces were so stark. So we can either have complete d1ckheads or ‘flower arrangers’.

And as usual, Jim, you take someone’s words and twist them to meet your aim.

Seriously, infantry are rough, tough, hard living, hard men. That’s why they are infantry, not flower arrnagers, green grocers, manicurists, payclerks, RAEME, etc.

Truthy came out with a statement that I believe is probably pushing the boundaries of truth, ie, Australians boozing on with loaded weapons. They may have been boozing on with weapons, again something I seriously doubt, but they wouldn’t have been loaded, ie, full magazine in. He got clled out for it.

That Truthy met some knob head grunters is not beyond the realms of reality though.

However, it seems they were nice enough to let him handle one of the weapons.

Truthy also seems to imply that Australian troops in ET were/ are no better than Indon troops, again, totally ridiculous.

Jim Jones said :

PBO said :

Jim Jones said :

You might as well be arguing over whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable.

Its a fruit, but thats beside the point.

It’s not a particularly fruity fruit.

Potato is possibly not a veggie either, but a tuber. Corn isnt a vegetable but a grain and mushrooms are just fungi. Does anyone know of any more of these issues that affect us everyday as this is way more interesting than the weekly ADFA goings on.

Truthiness said :

I googled the F88 Austeyr, thats the thing all right, still looked like a machine gun to me, so I did some research. Apparently “assault rifles” are the type of gun inbetween a “light machine gun” and a “submachine gun”, and yet they aren’t machine guns. Except in the US, where any fully automatic weapon is a machinegun under their gun laws. Truly confusing, I suppose these kinds of distinctions make a difference when you are buying so many thousands of them, seems like nitpicking to me.

Haven’t you seen Full Metal Jacket?

“This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for fighting, this is for fun”.

🙂

PBO said :

Jim Jones said :

You might as well be arguing over whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable.

Its a fruit, but thats beside the point.

It’s not a particularly fruity fruit.

PBO said :

I’m going to sit back and watch this one as LSWCHP and Thumper are doing a grand job of nailing down reality.

Curiously, what was your role in East Timor Truthiness?

I support Australian military action in East Timor – but do you really think that there aren’t any d***heads in the military? That public relations can’t be improved?

The dude has related one instance where there were jerkwads doing what jerkwads do, and it’s being denied because ‘it’s a rifle, not a gun’, ‘they’re soldiers, not flower arrangers’ (WTF does this mean? It’s okay to be a jerkwad if you’re in the army?)

How about a dose of actual reality – in which the black and white view of the armed forces is recognised to be a little more grey.

Or are we all gonna keep fawning over the immortal diggers who can do no wrong and are the eternal guardians of freedom?

Jim Jones said :

You might as well be arguing over whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable.

Its a fruit, but thats beside the point.

Oh I don’t know, I’d be suitably terrified if a few thousand flower arrangers came charging towards me. Those flowers might have thorns, or diseases, and who knows where their hands have been!

I googled the F88 Austeyr, thats the thing all right, still looked like a machine gun to me, so I did some research. Apparently “assault rifles” are the type of gun inbetween a “light machine gun” and a “submachine gun”, and yet they aren’t machine guns. Except in the US, where any fully automatic weapon is a machinegun under their gun laws. Truly confusing, I suppose these kinds of distinctions make a difference when you are buying so many thousands of them, seems like nitpicking to me.

I’m going to sit back and watch this one as LSWCHP and Thumper are doing a grand job of nailing down reality.

Curiously, what was your role in East Timor Truthiness?

Thumper said :

Horrid beastly stinging things, hung on the shoulders of obnoxious drunken louts. I certainly met some nice Australian soldiers out rebuilding, but the lads in question would have been more suited to a bar fight at mooseheads than a small timorese resteraunt.

They are soldiers, not flower arrangers.

I’m pretty sure the Indons would not have run away so quickly if we sent a battalion of flower arrangers.

As for the weapon, what describe is an F88 Austeyr.

I was unaware that the choices for armed forces were so stark. So we can either have complete d1ckheads or ‘flower arrangers’.

I’ll go for the flower arrangers. I’ve met a few nice florists in my time who would probably do quite a capable job.

You might as well be arguing over whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable.

LSWCHP said :

Truthiness said :

I don’t know about guns, nor do I care to, they are vicious and barbaric tools specifically designed to kill humans. As far as I am concerned they were a machine and a gun, you can define it however you want to.

I’ve spent most of my working life making sure the details are right. So I know this will sound pedantic, but if you want people to give credence to your yarns then you need to do the same thing. If you don’t, then the lack of credibility in the details taints the larger aspects of what you’ve trying to get across. And saying “these words mean what I want them to mean, not what they normally mean” was great in Alice in Wonderland, but it doesn’t seem all that thrilling to me.

So, you were there and I wasn’t, but I’m disinclined to believe it happened as you say it did.

Because he called a rifle a gun?

Unless you’re some sort of military nut, no-one really gives a sh1t.

Horrid beastly stinging things, hung on the shoulders of obnoxious drunken louts. I certainly met some nice Australian soldiers out rebuilding, but the lads in question would have been more suited to a bar fight at mooseheads than a small timorese resteraunt.

They are soldiers, not flower arrangers.

I’m pretty sure the Indons would not have run away so quickly if we sent a battalion of flower arrangers.

As for the weapon, what describe is an F88 Austeyr.

Truthiness said :

I don’t know about guns, nor do I care to, they are vicious and barbaric tools specifically designed to kill humans. As far as I am concerned they were a machine and a gun, you can define it however you want to.

I’ve spent most of my working life making sure the details are right. So I know this will sound pedantic, but if you want people to give credence to your yarns then you need to do the same thing. If you don’t, then the lack of credibility in the details taints the larger aspects of what you’ve trying to get across. And saying “these words mean what I want them to mean, not what they normally mean” was great in Alice in Wonderland, but it doesn’t seem all that thrilling to me.

So, you were there and I wasn’t, but I’m disinclined to believe it happened as you say it did.

As I understood it at the time they were required to carry weapons at all times since it was an “active war zone” while they chased the indonesians out.

Since you are all so interested in the specifics of the guns, I held one, they were greenish and incredibly lightweight for their size, like a large plastic kids toy hung on a strap, they were an unusual shape, like the pointy end looked too small for the handles.

Horrid beastly stinging things, hung on the shoulders of obnoxious drunken louts. I certainly met some nice Australian soldiers out rebuilding, but the lads in question would have been more suited to a bar fight at mooseheads than a small timorese resteraunt.

It doesn’t really matter what they *could* have gotten charged with, no one was going to f*** with them.

HenryBG said :

Truthiness said :

Who would ever have thought training people to be killing machines would have unwanted side effects?

Get real. ADFA doesn’t train any “killing machines”. ADFA provides all the short-arsed shiny bum middle-manager bullies for all those acres of cubicles at Russell. And elsewhere.

The “Killing machines” are trained at Kapooka. And elsewhere. But not at the University of f*ckwittery that’s know as ADFA.

I’m curious about where you’re getting your information from. You seem to imply that the ADFA graduating classes immediately march over to Russell and lead the high life while shining their bums and bullying people in an office for the rest of their careers, and it simply ain’t so.

If junior officers for the army aren’t coming out of ADFA then where are they coming from? It’s those junior officers who command the platoons, batteries and squadrons of our ground forces. All the killing machines from Kapooka would be an easily defeated rabble without the presence of the ADFA graduates who get all the weapons pointed in the right direction at the right time.

Truthiness said :

I remember sitting in a bar in dili watching Australian troops getting drunk and abusive to the local transvestites, while carrying fully loaded machine guns.

The soldiers may have been drunk and abusive. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time. But it seems highly unlikely that they were actually armed and carrying live ammo while doing this.

It’s even less likely that they were all carrying machines guns, but that’s a separate topic all of its own.

I don’t know about guns, nor do I care to, they are vicious and barbaric tools specifically designed to kill humans. As far as I am concerned they were a machine and a gun, you can define it however you want to.

I reject the entire concept of “just following orders”, it matters not if the orders came from the liberals or labour, they are both two sides of the same false dichotomy and are in agreement on most things. Blaming one or the other is disingenous, since neither could achieve much without some degree of support from the other.

I saw Australian soldiers abusing civilians while drunk on active duty with a loaded weapon, over here that would be unusual, the locals were used to it.

The coms guy was a native Falintil resistance fighter, not an overseas ring in. You are right, the UN were horrid corrupt bastards that had chinese casino ships following them from war to war. They kicked the Indonesians out of the palace and stepped right in to fill the gap. I didn’t meet any jordanians from the UN, just africans, australians and portugese. I stayed with Falintil fighters in the mountains, not with the UN, just as I had years previously under Indonesian occupation.

HenryBG said :

Truthiness said :

I remember sitting in a bar in dili watching Australian troops getting drunk and abusive to the local transvestites, while carrying fully loaded machine guns.
.

Seeing as you can’t tell a rifle from a gun, or government policy from Army behaviour, I call bulls*** on the rest of it.

The ALP gave the Indons the go-ahead for their genocidal invasion. The ALP refused to recognise refugees. The ALP tried to cover up the murder of Australian journalists. The ALP ignored radio signals from the resistance. The ALP sent Gareth Evans to clink champagne glasses with the Indons after signing an agreement to carve up their oil.

I don’t know who your “Head of Comms for the resistance” guy is, but if he’s the portuguese PR guy who specialised in spending resistance money and UN grants on prostitutes then I’d take his opinion with a grain of salt. If you’re referring to the pom, then I’d say you misunderstand him.

Everybody but the ALP’s die-hard apologists know Australia let them down, badly, and they know we know it. Xanana is very grateful for Australia’s help under John Howard (however belated it was) and he was very pleased to have Australian & NZ troops step in and help, as opposed to the scum from Jordan that the UN were brow-beaten into sending there and who behaved exactly like the Indons did (co-incidence? No.).

Just wondering Henry?

You’re not ex RASig by any chance? Six months in Timor attached to an Inf Btn?

“I remember sitting in a bar in dili watching Australian troops getting drunk and abusive to the local transvestites, while carrying fully loaded machine guns

Chargeable offence. And a serious charge as well. Diggers do not wander around with their weapons at Load unless they are actually in the boons.

And, as Henry pointed out, Australian troops do not carry machine guns, rifles, yes.

Unless of course they were all lounging around sucking on piss while carrying MAG58s and F89s.

Which is highly doubtful.

Truthiness said :

I remember sitting in a bar in dili watching Australian troops getting drunk and abusive to the local transvestites, while carrying fully loaded machine guns.
.

Seeing as you can’t tell a rifle from a gun, or government policy from Army behaviour, I call bulls*** on the rest of it.

The ALP gave the Indons the go-ahead for their genocidal invasion. The ALP refused to recognise refugees. The ALP tried to cover up the murder of Australian journalists. The ALP ignored radio signals from the resistance. The ALP sent Gareth Evans to clink champagne glasses with the Indons after signing an agreement to carve up their oil.

I don’t know who your “Head of Comms for the resistance” guy is, but if he’s the portuguese PR guy who specialised in spending resistance money and UN grants on prostitutes then I’d take his opinion with a grain of salt. If you’re referring to the pom, then I’d say you misunderstand him.

Everybody but the ALP’s die-hard apologists know Australia let them down, badly, and they know we know it. Xanana is very grateful for Australia’s help under John Howard (however belated it was) and he was very pleased to have Australian & NZ troops step in and help, as opposed to the scum from Jordan that the UN were brow-beaten into sending there and who behaved exactly like the Indons did (co-incidence? No.).

Mr_Shab said :

The lemonyness of the f-35 depends on who you ask. If It’s flyers who fancy themselves as strapping on the helmet and goggles and playing at being “knights of the sky”, then yeah, we could do better. Back in the real world where you’re looking for a delivery van packed with countermeasures for delivering JDAMS and the odd missile, they’re right on the money.

we might be fighting beardy nutters today, but the big, expensive projects are for the next war.

The F35 isn’t stealth, carries little payload, and has crap range. So it can’t perform as a strike aircraft.
The lack of stealth means it can only engage in air-air from range, and the ECM environment it’s likely to be flying into precludes that from being successful. Its lack of performance compared with opposition aircraft means it’s not likely to be able to position itself to make a successful attack and makes it a sitting duck in visual range combat. And again, its lack of payload means it can’t use the salvo tactic which will be employed by its better-armed opponents. It will run out of fuel and missiles very quickly, at which point the much, much faster opposition planes, each carrying up to 6 times the payload just zoom up to them and destroy them from behind.

We don’t use our airpower, and if we invest in crap (ultra-expensive crap) we won’t even have a deterrent.

Meanwhile, Aussies are dying because we have no Apaches to provide close support.

having been in east Timor, worked and become friends with the locals, I can assure you they don’t think of Australian troops as “nice”, just better than the genocidal Indonesians and the colonial Portuguese.

I remember sitting in a bar in dili watching Australian troops getting drunk and abusive to the local transvestites, while carrying fully loaded machine guns.

I remember talking to the former head of communications for the resistance, who told us how he had spent months in a mud cave under a swamp with a radio transmitter, broadcasting to Darwin, begging for help while Indonesian troops walked above him. it was all for nought though, since the Australian army was jamming the signal, so the people of Darwin wouldn’t have to be bothered by his calls for help.

in world war two, more east timorese died protecting Australia than Australians have died in all wars. we repay them by ignoring them for decades and then stealing the lion’s share of their oil. they don’t hate us, they are grateful we sent bullies to kick out the Indonesian bullies, they just feel deeply betrayed and stepped on. personally I can see why.

as for the afghan people, I am sure they just love having more foreign troops on their land, again, we aren’t as bad as the Russians or yanks, but that isn’t saying much. given opium production and tribal violence have actually gotten worse under our watch, and given they didnt ask us to invade, I find it difficult to believe they really like us much.

saying Australian troops are nice is like saying Australian boots are nice, it doesn’t mean much when they are standing on your neck.

What are the submarines and F-35 lemons for?a[quote>

Subs are the Shiz when facing off against a hostile sea power.

The lemonyness of the f-35 depends on who you ask. If It’s flyers who fancy themselves as strapping on the helmet and goggles and playing at being “knights of the sky”, then yeah, we could do better. Back in the real world where you’re looking for a delivery van packed with countermeasures for delivering JDAMS and the odd missile, they’re right on the money.

we might be fighting beardy nutters today, but the big, expensive projects are for the next war.

johnboy said :

Peace keeping and making friends with the locals is an important part of what they do for sure. But it’s not what we spend the billions for.

Actually – there’s a fair bit of debate about that at the moment.

What have Australia’s armed forces actually been up to recently?

What are the submarines and F-35 lemons for?

Why are we spending billions on a new fighter plane that is vastly inferior in performance, range, firepower, ECM and/or stealth to all its competitors when the actual work we do calls for drones, Apache attack helicopters, and Chinoooks for casevac?

Thumper said :

HenryBG said :

Truthiness said :

Who would ever have thought training people to be killing machines would have unwanted side effects?

Get real. ADFA doesn’t train any “killing machines”. ADFA provides all the short-arsed shiny bum middle-manager bullies for all those acres of cubicles at Russell. And elsewhere.

The “Killing machines” are trained at Kapooka. And elsewhere. But not at the University of f*ckwittery that’s know as ADFA.

What I really wanted to ask was, have they found a way to pin it on the girl yet?

They train them at Kapooka then send them to lovely places such as Singo, Shoalwater and Kanungra, just to make sure.

Yeah, my youngest cousin graduates as a combat engineer next week. His entire course were devastated to hear they won’t be going anywhere.

You don’t become a combat engineer because you hate foreigners, that’s for sure…

johnboy said :

disliking foreigners (or at least people who don’t know how to pass the port) is at the heart of the ADF mission for all that they like to pretend otherwise.

You may well be right about ADFA, but the army in general is pretty famous in places like East Timor and Afghanistan for its good relations with the locals.

In fact, if the East Timorese don’t totally hate us due to Whitlam and the ALP’s connivance with the genocidal Indonesian invasion of their country, it is thanks to them meeting lots of kind and caring Aussie diggers.

johnboy said :

disliking foreigners (or at least people who don’t know how to pass the port) is at the heart of the ADF mission for all that they like to pretend otherwise.

It would be easy to say that not all foreigners like us, so it’s just as well that we have some people who don’t like them back.

Instead, I’ll say that I hope your comment is flippant – otherwise it displays a lack of connection with the real world.

HenryBG said :

Truthiness said :

Who would ever have thought training people to be killing machines would have unwanted side effects?

Get real. ADFA doesn’t train any “killing machines”. ADFA provides all the short-arsed shiny bum middle-manager bullies for all those acres of cubicles at Russell. And elsewhere.

The “Killing machines” are trained at Kapooka. And elsewhere. But not at the University of f*ckwittery that’s know as ADFA.

What I really wanted to ask was, have they found a way to pin it on the girl yet?

They train them at Kapooka then send them to lovely places such as Singo, Shoalwater and Kanungra, just to make sure.

m_ratt said :

Just as in the shower cam incident from August last year, this is a foreign cadet, studying at ADFA. I wouldn’t call it indicative of ADF culture at all.

Ah-ha! So now we can’t blame it all on women, we can blame it all on foreigners.

Good to see progress in action at ADFA…

Truthiness said :

Who would ever have thought training people to be killing machines would have unwanted side effects?

Get real. ADFA doesn’t train any “killing machines”. ADFA provides all the short-arsed shiny bum middle-manager bullies for all those acres of cubicles at Russell. And elsewhere.

The “Killing machines” are trained at Kapooka. And elsewhere. But not at the University of f*ckwittery that’s know as ADFA.

What I really wanted to ask was, have they found a way to pin it on the girl yet?

Just as in the shower cam incident from August last year, this is a foreign cadet, studying at ADFA. I wouldn’t call it indicative of ADF culture at all.

dvaey said :

JessP said :

Given all the drama’s of recent times at ADFA, what part of your brain tells you entering a colleagues room and committing ‘acts of indencency’ is a good idea?

This is only permitted if said cadet (the one committing the acts) is female, seemingly. I dont think Ive heard of a single female cadet getting in trouble for entering a male cadets room, only the other way around.

That is because in the real world, women don’t need to molest men against their will to get laid. There are plenty of guys who will give it willingly to any girl who asks for it. But I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that all your sexual experiences come from watching pornos, and not from the real world and that that is why you made such a laughable comment.

One said :

Only thing the ADFA cadet has done wrong is to attack a female.

Blame it on Beer.

Just remember to use the line used by all drunks! I don’t remember! Really Sorry BS!

Oh yeah its lawful to break, enter, and trespass with intent to commit harm without ever being charged by the landlord, police or tenant if your drunk – just be sure to question the mental health of your victim! The Government will be in on testing people who speak out.

Wow, you’re really coming through as a special character there buddy, I can’t wait for your next post.

JessP said :

Given all the drama’s of recent times at ADFA, what part of your brain tells you entering a colleagues room and committing ‘acts of indencency’ is a good idea?

This is only permitted if said cadet (the one committing the acts) is female, seemingly. I dont think Ive heard of a single female cadet getting in trouble for entering a male cadets room, only the other way around.

JessP said :

Given all the drama’s of recent times at ADFA, what part of your brain tells you entering a colleagues room and committing ‘acts of indencency’ is a good idea?

That’s the problem, they aren’t thinking or if they are it’s with the wrong head.

One said :

Only thing the ADFA cadet has done wrong is to attack a female.

Blame it on Beer.

Just remember to use the line used by all drunks! I don’t remember! Really Sorry BS!

Oh yeah its lawful to break, enter, and trespass with intent to commit harm without ever being charged by the landlord, police or tenant if your drunk – just be sure to question the mental health of your victim! The Government will be in on testing people who speak out.

You are a strange individual.

Given all the drama’s of recent times at ADFA, what part of your brain tells you entering a colleagues room and committing ‘acts of indencency’ is a good idea?

Who would ever have thought training people to be killing machines would have unwanted side effects?

It makes you wonder if this has been happening all along, and only now being reported due to the media and official findings, or whether they have just started recruiting a bunch of sex offenders?

Erg0 said :

rosscoact said :

Commandant Klink still in charge out there?

It does sound like the cadets have been taking lessons from Bob Crane.

Obscure reference, but very good 🙂

Only thing the ADFA cadet has done wrong is to attack a female.

Blame it on Beer.

Just remember to use the line used by all drunks! I don’t remember! Really Sorry BS!

Oh yeah its lawful to break, enter, and trespass with intent to commit harm without ever being charged by the landlord, police or tenant if your drunk – just be sure to question the mental health of your victim! The Government will be in on testing people who speak out.

rosscoact said :

Commandant Klink still in charge out there?

It does sound like the cadets have been taking lessons from Bob Crane.

Commandant Klink still in charge out there?