5 September 2013

Assault of a child in the Belconnen Library

| johnboy
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ACT Policing is investigating an incident at the Belconnen library where a man is alleged to have assaulted a young child earlier today (September 5).

Police were called to the library about 1.30pm following a report that an unknown man was found in a corner of the library with a child.

The man left the location shortly afterward.

The offender is described as having dark-coloured skin, approximately 5’ 7” (170cm) tall, aged in his mid-30s to early 40s, and with a short beard. He was wearing a very loose-fitting tracksuit.

Police are appealing for anyone who was in the library at the time or can assist with the investigation to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000 or via www.act.crimestoppers.com.au. Information can be provided anonymously.

[Courtesy ACT Policing]

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lostinbias said :

I generally try to avoid emotive pitchfork reactions to these things, but considering this guy’s history he really shouldn’t be released back into the community.

I watched a Louis Theroux documentary about a detention facility for pedophiles in California. After they had completed their prison sentences they would be sent to this facility, where they would be held. They had the option to participate in rehabilitation, but most refused or were not considered safe to be in the community yet. A tiny percentage got out of there.

The way they tested their rehabilitation efforts involved sexual stimuli (not actual child abuse material or anything) and looked to me like it would work, but I’m not a doctor.

I surprisingly came to think this facility was actually a good idea, as they were being kept away from the community, however considering they had finished their sentences, they were being held in relatively comfortable surroundings, not like prison. I never thought I’d support indefinite detention in this manner, but the program seemed well and humanely implemented, and the recidivism statistics don’t fill me with confidence about letting them out into the community.

The documentary dated from 2008 or 2009, but was repeated a few weeks ago on ABC2 (search iView for Louis Theroux and it may still be viewable).

This is similar to the legislation in some Australian States, but because of the much smaller numbers of such people here there are no specialised institutions, and the offenders are simply held in prison.

The testing equipment you referred to is a PPG (look it up) and like lie detector tests (which they also mentioned using) they are not infallible.

Interestingly, the facility in the documentary is designated as a mental hospital, which has lots of implications that might not go down well in Australia. The documentary won a lot of awards, but Wikipedia says it has never been shown in the USA – it can’t be shown there because of health privacy laws, because it is a hospital!

It did look quite comfortable, but probably one reason is that it wasn’t yet full – once full, it will be busier, noisier, and eventually maybe it will be over-full and have all sorts of other problems.

One guy they interviewed extensively had been approved for release a year earlier, but could not find accommodation. This was probably because of the sexual offender notification laws in California which don’t exist here.

IP

colourful sydney racing identity3:44 pm 04 Feb 14

Brianna said :

I would like to see the sentencing judge made accountable for the sentencing.

Which aspects of the sentencing remarks did you disagree with? I assume you read the report…

lostinbias said :

I generally try to avoid emotive pitchfork reactions to these things, but considering this guy’s history he really shouldn’t be released back into the community.

I watched a Louis Theroux documentary about a detention facility for pedophiles in California. After they had completed their prison sentences they would be sent to this facility, where they would be held. They had the option to participate in rehabilitation, but most refused or were not considered safe to be in the community yet. A tiny percentage got out of there.

The way they tested their rehabilitation efforts involved sexual stimuli (not actual child abuse material or anything) and looked to me like it would work, but I’m not a doctor.

I surprisingly came to think this facility was actually a good idea, as they were being kept away from the community, however considering they had finished their sentences, they were being held in relatively comfortable surroundings, not like prison. I never thought I’d support indefinite detention in this manner, but the program seemed well and humanely implemented, and the recidivism statistics don’t fill me with confidence about letting them out into the community.

Seems worth considering.
It also means victims who recognise them won’t have to walk past them in the street and the sickening feelings that would go with that, or in some cases the upheaval of leaving town for such things. The criminals are the ones that should be outcast.

NoImRight said :

Brianna said :

I would like to see the sentencing judge made accountable for the sentencing. Why was it such a short period? What happens when he gets out again and does the same thing?
If he is paroled, then reoffends, then whoever is on the parole board should be made accountable.

In what way?

Or Charles Bronson style maybe?

That would be incredibly effective. I wonder what the Court of Appeals will think of the Chief Justice’s sentence? Hmm Charles Bronson style is far more appealing…

Brianna said :

I would like to see the sentencing judge made accountable for the sentencing. Why was it such a short period? What happens when he gets out again and does the same thing?
If he is paroled, then reoffends, then whoever is on the parole board should be made accountable.

In what way?

Or Charles Bronson style maybe?

I would like to see the sentencing judge made accountable for the sentencing. Why was it such a short period? What happens when he gets out again and does the same thing?
If he is paroled, then reoffends, then whoever is on the parole board should be made accountable.

I generally try to avoid emotive pitchfork reactions to these things, but considering this guy’s history he really shouldn’t be released back into the community.

I watched a Louis Theroux documentary about a detention facility for pedophiles in California. After they had completed their prison sentences they would be sent to this facility, where they would be held. They had the option to participate in rehabilitation, but most refused or were not considered safe to be in the community yet. A tiny percentage got out of there.

The way they tested their rehabilitation efforts involved sexual stimuli (not actual child abuse material or anything) and looked to me like it would work, but I’m not a doctor.

I surprisingly came to think this facility was actually a good idea, as they were being kept away from the community, however considering they had finished their sentences, they were being held in relatively comfortable surroundings, not like prison. I never thought I’d support indefinite detention in this manner, but the program seemed well and humanely implemented, and the recidivism statistics don’t fill me with confidence about letting them out into the community.

bundah said :

The stats I looked at came from these two sources:

http://www.bravehearts.org.au/files/Facts%20and%20Stats_updated141212.pdf?

http://www.aifs.gov.au/cfca/pubs/factsheets/a142086/

There was a hell of a lot of info there so I just grabbed a few trying to highlight that it’s often according to the stats ostensibly ordinary people that commit these horrific crimes particularly given apparently one in hundred get away with it.

I couldn’t find a mention of education level, and I see now that with the comments on intelligence what they (and you) were trying to imply is that it’s not primarily people with an intellectual disability who offend.

But the whole issue of statistics on offenders is fraught, because they usually only describe those who have been caught.

Also need to make a distinction between the number of offenders and the number of victims – an educated offender (say a teacher or priest) may have lots of victims, whereas an uneducated offender may have fewer. I don’t know that, it’s informed speculation.

IP

CraigT said :

bundah said :

The question is whether we as a society are prepared to spend the money needed to seriously tackle the problem of child abuse or is it just in the too hard basket and therefore easier to sweep it under the carpet?

It all depends on whether the lefties are ever capable of seeing the sense in saying that an adult who is on welfare has no business to be breeding.

If receiving welfare was conditional on providing a medical certificate to the effect that no breeding is possible, a hell of a lot of child abuse (not to mention crime) would be eliminated.

Tony Abbott might be an idiot, but he’s already proven he can deal with the leftie-lobbies who sponge of us – by giving them zero information to fuel their illegal immigrant/”poor desperate refugee” hysteria – so here’s hoping that his welfare reform will,
a. cut off the 75% of disability pensioners who are nothing but scroungers.
and
b. make people work for their welfare and stop them from breeding

Does someone pay you a dollar everytime you write “leftie”? I hope so.

Please stop speaking as if you a spokesman for the “right”. You arent helping. Otherwise you are funny. I do enjoy your sweeping assumptions based on stats plucked from your probably quite large.. well you know where. If not ask your handler.

100 bucks says your response, if you are game ;-), will be a broadside about “lefties” that doesnt actually stick to topic and will simply just regurgitate what you think lefties think so you can then attack that instead. Or…google strawman argument.

That should be 99 out of 100 get away with it!

IrishPete said :

bundah said :

Child sexual abuse is a huge problem worldwide right across all socioeconomic groups. Statistics indicate that a substantial majority of offenders had not completed secondary education which is unsurprising. Further to this apparently 80% of offenders are of average intelligence.

There are endless statistics re child sexual abuse and the more research one does the more disillusioned one becomes particularly given that only one in a hundred offenders are caught and prosecuted. The picture is incredibly gloomy.

Your first and second sentences partly contradict each other. I agree with the first sentence, but not the second – can you provide a source for those statistics? The third sentence is meaningless, almost as meaningless as saying with horror “50% of people are below average intelligence”.

Average intelligence is an IQ of 100 – 80% of offenders do not have an IQ of 100; probably not even 80% have an IQ between 85 and 115. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IQ_distribution.svg for an idea of the population distribution of IQ (which isn’t a very robust construct anyway, and is much harder than most people realise to measure accurately).

Indeed the low level of reporting and prosecution is very disturbing.

IP

The stats I looked at came from these two sources:

http://www.bravehearts.org.au/files/Facts%20and%20Stats_updated141212.pdf?

http://www.aifs.gov.au/cfca/pubs/factsheets/a142086/

There was a hell of a lot of info there so I just grabbed a few trying to highlight that it’s often according to the stats ostensibly ordinary people that commit these horrific crimes particularly given apparently one in hundred get away with it.

bundah said :

Child sexual abuse is a huge problem worldwide right across all socioeconomic groups. Statistics indicate that a substantial majority of offenders had not completed secondary education which is unsurprising. Further to this apparently 80% of offenders are of average intelligence.

There are endless statistics re child sexual abuse and the more research one does the more disillusioned one becomes particularly given that only one in a hundred offenders are caught and prosecuted. The picture is incredibly gloomy.

Your first and second sentences partly contradict each other. I agree with the first sentence, but not the second – can you provide a source for those statistics? The third sentence is meaningless, almost as meaningless as saying with horror “50% of people are below average intelligence”.

Average intelligence is an IQ of 100 – 80% of offenders do not have an IQ of 100; probably not even 80% have an IQ between 85 and 115. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IQ_distribution.svg for an idea of the population distribution of IQ (which isn’t a very robust construct anyway, and is much harder than most people realise to measure accurately).

Indeed the low level of reporting and prosecution is very disturbing.

IP

IrishPete said :

(whoever they are, because most Australians seem to be on welfare these days, be it baby bonuses, child care assistance, health insurance rebates).

IP

The only reason many Australians get private health insurance rebates is because they are forced into having private health insurance. For our family, it would be far more expensive to pay the medicare levy surcharge than pay for private health cover.

CraigT said :

bundah said :

The question is whether we as a society are prepared to spend the money needed to seriously tackle the problem of child abuse or is it just in the too hard basket and therefore easier to sweep it under the carpet?

It all depends on whether the lefties are ever capable of seeing the sense in saying that an adult who is on welfare has no business to be breeding.

If receiving welfare was conditional on providing a medical certificate to the effect that no breeding is possible, a hell of a lot of child abuse (not to mention crime) would be eliminated.

Tony Abbott might be an idiot, but he’s already proven he can deal with the leftie-lobbies who sponge of us – by giving them zero information to fuel their illegal immigrant/”poor desperate refugee” hysteria – so here’s hoping that his welfare reform will,
a. cut off the 75% of disability pensioners who are nothing but scroungers.
and
b. make people work for their welfare and stop them from breeding

Child sexual abuse is a huge problem worldwide right across all socioeconomic groups. Statistics indicate that a substantial majority of offenders had not completed secondary education which is unsurprising. Further to this apparently 80% of offenders are of average intelligence.

There are endless statistics re child sexual abuse and the more research one does the more disillusioned one becomes particularly given that only one in a hundred offenders are caught and prosecuted. The picture is incredibly gloomy.

What kind of a person turns a discussion about the awful molestation of a 3yo child, into an opportunity to look for reds under the bed, and to laud the government’s immigration policy? Oh, yeah, a troll. Dammit, I took the bait. They’re probably really a fictional persona, and in fact actually a mild-manner accountant living in Yorkshire, England, who can’t even pronounce Canberra, never mind knows where it is.

By the way, most child abuse occurs within the home, or by more distant relatives or family friends, and is not committed by strangers on “welfare” (whoever they are, because most Australians seem to be on welfare these days, be it baby bonuses, child care assistance, health insurance rebates).

IP

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Tooks said :

People getting outraged about a 3 year old being molested by a recidivist paedophile is just bizarre behaviour, isn’t it?

You’re right. Here, let me try again:

GRAR WHERE ARE MY SHEARS and of course I’ll sign that petition, look, I’m putting on a very stern face and looking down while shaking my head with worry, because what’s to be done I’ll tell you what it is, Ray Martin, it’s the end of days that’s what. Maybe somebody will make one of those charities where I can just buy a nice ribbon, I’ll be all in for that. I mean, I can be outraged about this one bloke for another week or two, but a ribbon would let me show I’m outraged about all the other child abuse going on without actually doing anything. It’d be a once-a-year thing, right? There, problem solved.

(Just don’t come back to this thread in a couple of months time when it’s dead silent and ask if I’m still outraged. That’d be really inconvenient. There’ll be something else on Facebook I have to be outraged about by then, and if I don’t look outraged enough they’ll think I’m for it, or one of them, or both. I made the mistake of not getting on that Kony thing fast enough and the next thing I knew one of the other parents called me a child-exploiting colonialist war monger at the school fete. It was quite awkward, because my child was holding a plastic M-16 at the time.)

*Yawn* I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Can you ever just discuss the issues like an adult? Leave the silly attempted humour for less serious topics.

Look, I think the women from that mother’s group with their stupid petition were silly, and I’m generally against knee jerk reactions when it comes to legislation changes (see the NSW one punch laws).

Don’t assume that most people have any idea about the criminal justice system or sentencing guidelines. I’m pretty confident none of the people who signed that position even know what offences Williams was charged with, let alone have even flicked through the Crimes Sentencing Act. Here is what most people would’ve absorbed:

1) Man molests toddler
2) Man is a repeat sexual offender against children over a 20 year period
3) Man ‘only’ gets 7 and a half years, which includes a separate and serious assault on his neighbour

Hence the outrage. I don’t know if the sentence is inadequate because I don’t know what he was charged with (can’t remember seeing if the specific offence or offences were published), but I can understand the pitchfork mentality and the outrage from those who don’t know any better. Surely you can too.

Woody Mann-Caruso7:08 pm 02 Feb 14

Tooks said :

People getting outraged about a 3 year old being molested by a recidivist paedophile is just bizarre behaviour, isn’t it?

You’re right. Here, let me try again:

GRAR WHERE ARE MY SHEARS and of course I’ll sign that petition, look, I’m putting on a very stern face and looking down while shaking my head with worry, because what’s to be done I’ll tell you what it is, Ray Martin, it’s the end of days that’s what. Maybe somebody will make one of those charities where I can just buy a nice ribbon, I’ll be all in for that. I mean, I can be outraged about this one bloke for another week or two, but a ribbon would let me show I’m outraged about all the other child abuse going on without actually doing anything. It’d be a once-a-year thing, right? There, problem solved.

(Just don’t come back to this thread in a couple of months time when it’s dead silent and ask if I’m still outraged. That’d be really inconvenient. There’ll be something else on Facebook I have to be outraged about by then, and if I don’t look outraged enough they’ll think I’m for it, or one of them, or both. I made the mistake of not getting on that Kony thing fast enough and the next thing I knew one of the other parents called me a child-exploiting colonialist war monger at the school fete. It was quite awkward, because my child was holding a plastic M-16 at the time.)

bundah said :

The question is whether we as a society are prepared to spend the money needed to seriously tackle the problem of child abuse or is it just in the too hard basket and therefore easier to sweep it under the carpet?

It all depends on whether the lefties are ever capable of seeing the sense in saying that an adult who is on welfare has no business to be breeding.

If receiving welfare was conditional on providing a medical certificate to the effect that no breeding is possible, a hell of a lot of child abuse (not to mention crime) would be eliminated.

Tony Abbott might be an idiot, but he’s already proven he can deal with the leftie-lobbies who sponge of us – by giving them zero information to fuel their illegal immigrant/”poor desperate refugee” hysteria – so here’s hoping that his welfare reform will,
a. cut off the 75% of disability pensioners who are nothing but scroungers.
and
b. make people work for their welfare and stop them from breeding

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Can you imagine if the overwhelming majority of child molesters were close friends, family members and people in trusted positions of authority messing with our kids under your very noses, and all this bullsh*t internet posturing wasn’t changing a thing? That’d be awful.

Nothing riles a leftie quite so much as a bunch of people criticising a criminal. How dare we?

For those who want an insight into how utterly vile and commonplace child abuse is in this country read the following:

http://www.aifs.gov.au/cfca/pubs/factsheets/a142086/

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Can you imagine if the overwhelming majority of child molesters were close friends, family members and people in trusted positions of authority messing with our kids under your very noses, and all this bullsh*t internet posturing wasn’t changing a thing? That’d be awful.

Just imagine if there was a child sex molester so chronic and out of control that every time he was in reach of a child he grabbed them, even in public in clear view of other people. Wouldn’t it make sense to lock such a person up, if it were the only possible way to keep them away form children?

Obviously sexual abuse within the home is terrible, but it is happening in secret, and much harder to deal with. Once the authorities know it is definitely going to occur if that person lives with their child, the child is removed. In this case, abuse is definitely going to occur if this man is allowed into the general public. hard to stop him without locking him up.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Can you imagine if the overwhelming majority of child molesters were close friends, family members and people in trusted positions of authority messing with our kids under your very noses, and all this bullsh*t internet posturing wasn’t changing a thing? That’d be awful.

People getting outraged about a 3 year old being molested by a recidivist paedophile is just bizarre behaviour, isn’t it?

Woody Mann-Caruso3:27 pm 02 Feb 14

Can you imagine if the overwhelming majority of child molesters were close friends, family members and people in trusted positions of authority messing with our kids under your very noses, and all this bullsh*t internet posturing wasn’t changing a thing? That’d be awful.

Spiral said :

IrishPete said :

Do we know that he wasn’t stolen? Maybe he was stolen and brought up in a Salvation Army boys home? Or maybe he was sent to child care at YMCA? Or to a Catholic school? The assumption that he was brought up by his family, I don’t think is supported by the information publicly available. When his sentencing is published on the ACT Courts website, we may find out more.

IP

We don’t know for sure, but from what we have seen:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/serial-child-molester-jailed-for-assaulting-young-girl-in-library-20140129-31m0e.html

It states:

“Williams himself went through a terrible childhood, where he was severely neglected, physically and sexually abused, and started drinking at 12, and using cannabis at 10.

Chief Justice Murrell said Williams was subjected to sexual abuse of the ‘‘most heinous type’’ as a child.

His alcoholic father beat him regularly, and his mother left him when he was young.”

Therein lies one of society’s biggest problems ie. lowlife procreating who abhorrently abuse their children effectively creating monsters who in turn then horrifically abuse others. Unless our legislators introduce measures to effectively deal with this abuse by allocating appropriate resources to reign in animalistic behaviour then this type of horrific crime will always rear its ugly head.

The question is whether we as a society are prepared to spend the money needed to seriously tackle the problem of child abuse or is it just in the too hard basket and therefore easier to sweep it under the carpet?

IrishPete said :

Do we know that he wasn’t stolen? Maybe he was stolen and brought up in a Salvation Army boys home? Or maybe he was sent to child care at YMCA? Or to a Catholic school? The assumption that he was brought up by his family, I don’t think is supported by the information publicly available. When his sentencing is published on the ACT Courts website, we may find out more.

IP

We don’t know for sure, but from what we have seen:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/serial-child-molester-jailed-for-assaulting-young-girl-in-library-20140129-31m0e.html

It states:

“Williams himself went through a terrible childhood, where he was severely neglected, physically and sexually abused, and started drinking at 12, and using cannabis at 10.

Chief Justice Murrell said Williams was subjected to sexual abuse of the ‘‘most heinous type’’ as a child.

His alcoholic father beat him regularly, and his mother left him when he was young.”

IrishPete said :

CraigT said :

Nylex_Clock said :

schmeah said :

annus_horribilis said :

I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.

+1 my left-wing sympathies dissipated people swiftly too.

On the subject of “left-wing” ideals – does anybody regret the fact this individual was *not* “stolen” by the government from the family that brought him up to be the person he eventually became?

No. Clearly it is Leftie dogma that at-risk children should only be removed from their abusive parents if they are white.

Do we know that he wasn’t stolen? Maybe …blahblahblah

Or maybe you can read the facts of the case before posting rather than assuming others are making assumptions.

Lookout Smithers5:38 am 02 Feb 14

DangerMouse said :

IrishPete said :

… When his sentencing is published on the ACT Courts website, we may find out more.

IP

$100 bucks says Murrell’s decision takes an interminable amount of time to finalise (a la Refshauge) so this can all blow over, and for the DPPs actions to progress in silence. Don’t forget, this was a sentence from the NEW Chief Justice (who is obviously just as out of touch as Higgins was). Both the court and the ACT Govt want this to be resolved quietly, with minimal public backdown.

How many Chief Justices will you go through before Canberra gets one that is “in touch”. You live in a place that boasts the lowest levels of crime in years? The courts do nothing in aid of that?Don’t answer that. If you know all the rules so well, including the ones about scandalising the courts, then you can surely obey them. Yes.

CraigT said :

Proboscus said :

Just as heterosexuality and homosexuality aren’t choices made by individuals, paedophiles are born, not made.
.

Utter crap. Typical lefty responsibility-denying fact-free assertion.

We are all personally responsible for all our choices and all our actions.

I agree that we are all responsible for our actions but I stand by my comments about heterosexuals, homosexuals and paedophiles being born not made.

I also disagree that I’m a leftie. Compared to your views, mine are that of a flannel wearing, wife beating bogan…!!!

DangerMouse said :

[
$100 bucks says Murrell’s decision takes an interminable amount of time to finalise (a la Refshauge) so this can all blow over, and for the DPPs actions to progress in silence. Don’t forget, this was a sentence from the NEW Chief Justice (who is obviously just as out of touch as Higgins was). Both the court and the ACT Govt want this to be resolved quietly, with minimal public backdown.

The issue with Refshauge’s decisions and sentences is they length of time he takes to make them, not the length of time that is taken to put them on the Courts website. Murrell has made her decision and quickly. The most recent “edited extract of sentence proceedings” on the Supreme court website is from 7th January, so it should only be a few weeks.

The Magistrates’ court doesn’t publish any of their sentences on the web.

IP

Thanks IP. There’s a problem with the HRA if offenders’ rights ‘trump’ community safety.
Perhaps this case will be the ACT equivalent of the Jill Meagher case.

IrishPete said :

… When his sentencing is published on the ACT Courts website, we may find out more.

IP

$100 bucks says Murrell’s decision takes an interminable amount of time to finalise (a la Refshauge) so this can all blow over, and for the DPPs actions to progress in silence. Don’t forget, this was a sentence from the NEW Chief Justice (who is obviously just as out of touch as Higgins was). Both the court and the ACT Govt want this to be resolved quietly, with minimal public backdown.

CraigT said :

Nylex_Clock said :

schmeah said :

annus_horribilis said :

I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.

+1 my left-wing sympathies dissipated people swiftly too.

On the subject of “left-wing” ideals – does anybody regret the fact this individual was *not* “stolen” by the government from the family that brought him up to be the person he eventually became?

No. Clearly it is Leftie dogma that at-risk children should only be removed from their abusive parents if they are white.

Do we know that he wasn’t stolen? Maybe he was stolen and brought up in a Salvation Army boys home? Or maybe he was sent to child care at YMCA? Or to a Catholic school? The assumption that he was brought up by his family, I don’t think is supported by the information publicly available. When his sentencing is published on the ACT Courts website, we may find out more.

IP

miz said :

IP – you might know this – Victoria can detain sex offenders indefinitely if they are an unacceptable risk to the community – see
http://www.corrections.vic.gov.au/home/parole/detention+and+supervision+orders/
Does the ACT have something similar? It would be good to know the community is safe from people like this who seem to make unpredictable random attacks.

No, ACT doesn’t. Qld does too I think, and in NSW I think it is extended supervision rather than extended imprisonment.

The ACT does have child sexual offender registration, and this gent was reported to have been on his way to report to police when he committed this offence (he may already have been committing an offence by going into the library, I am not sure).

All States and Territories have some form of registration, and it is one area where there is pretty good inter-state cooperation, though it is still fairly easy for an offender to disappear “off the grid”. They get in trouble for it when caught (e.g. pulled over for speeding or DUI, or anything else), but that doesn’t necessarily help.

Of course registration didn’t prevent this guy re-offending, although it may have delayed it, or made it easier to catch him before he did it again, or all kinds of other things that might have been slight positive benefits of him being registered.

Extending someone’s imprisonment (even extended supervision) is viewed by many as “double jeopardy” and could well be inconsistent with the ACT’s Human Rights Act. (I haven’t heard of anyone challenging them in Vic under heir Human Rights Charter, but it may not be as strong as ACT’s HRA.) Giving them a much longer sentence in the first place would probably not be inconsistent with the HRA.

IP

Nylex_Clock said :

schmeah said :

annus_horribilis said :

I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.

+1 my left-wing sympathies dissipated people swiftly too.

On the subject of “left-wing” ideals – does anybody regret the fact this individual was *not* “stolen” by the government from the family that brought him up to be the person he eventually became?

No. Clearly it is Leftie dogma that at-risk children should only be removed from their abusive parents if they are white.

IrishPete said :

Antagonist said :

As for the rest, TL;DR. Mainly because you are still a douche.

Is this addressed to me and, if so, can you please repeat it in English not teenage iPhone-speak?

IP

In French, NDLR means “Note de la redaction” = editor’s comment.
No idea what the above gibberish is supposed to convey, though. You have to ask yourself – if somebody’s trying to communicate, why use obscure jargon?

Also, what is a “douche”? Does the teenager even know what it is? Clearly it has watched far too much poor-quality US television and is unable to share its thoughts with us using the full richness of the English language but is instead reduced to parroting bland americanisms at us.

Proboscus said :

Just as heterosexuality and homosexuality aren’t choices made by individuals, paedophiles are born, not made.
.

Utter crap. Typical lefty responsibility-denying fact-free assertion.

We are all personally responsible for all our choices and all our actions.

IP – you might know this – Victoria can detain sex offenders indefinitely if they are an unacceptable risk to the community – see
http://www.corrections.vic.gov.au/home/parole/detention+and+supervision+orders/
Does the ACT have something similar? It would be good to know the community is safe from people like this who seem to make unpredictable random attacks.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Proboscus said :

My preference for sentencing a child molester would be a bullet or a noose.

There are countries where this would happen, I suspect you would not be in a hurry to choose to live in one.

Mr sophisticate here just deplores your populism. You don’t understand that the offender is from a persecuted minority and that giving him a long sentence would only exacerbate the over representation of aboriginals in custody.

Antagonist said :

As for the rest, TL;DR. Mainly because you are still a douche.

Is this addressed to me and, if so, can you please repeat it in English not teenage iPhone-speak?

IP

I do stand corrected:

“For both the assault and the rape, Williams received a 25 per cent discount on his sentence for pleading guilty.

Ms Murrell sentenced him to a total of seven years and six months in prison.

He will be eligible for parole in four-and-a-half years.”

From here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046

Although I am actually fairly sure I was reading it on news.com.au yesterday, which may explain why I was momentarily dumbed down. At least the DPP agrees with the general view that the sentence is ‘manifestly inadequate’.

As for the rest, TL;DR. Mainly because you are still a douche.

The DPP has indicated the they will appeal this manifestly inadequate sentence. It has also been reported that Shane Williams had been convicted of offences against children five times in the past, and had repeatedly returned to such crimes on release from prison.

Both the legislature and the judiciary continue to be limp wristed do-gooders and have little to no regard for community expectations where sentencing is involved. Massive ongoing FAIL!

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Proboscus said :

Chance of rehabilitation shouldn’t even be considered by judges when it comes to sentencing paedophiles because the scumbags can’t be rehabilitated.

Just as heterosexuality and homosexuality aren’t choices made by individuals, paedophiles are born, not made.

Do you have any evidence to back this up? My understanding is that most child abusers were also victims of abuse as children.

Just because a dirtbag kiddie fiddler says to a court that they were molested as a child, doesn’t mean it happened. Believe it or not crooks lie in court so they can be seen as victims.

colourful sydney racing identity1:59 pm 31 Jan 14

Proboscus said :

Chance of rehabilitation shouldn’t even be considered by judges when it comes to sentencing paedophiles because the scumbags can’t be rehabilitated.

Just as heterosexuality and homosexuality aren’t choices made by individuals, paedophiles are born, not made.

Do you have any evidence to back this up? My understanding is that most child abusers were also victims of abuse as children.

IrishPete said :

Hosinator said :

I just can’t believe we don’t chemically castrate these types of people at a minimum.

Possibly because it doesn’t work well enough. It’s not permanent – it either requires someone to take daily pills or have an implant which lasts a month or so. So even with the implant it virtually needs to be voluntary because a non-voluntary “participant” will just disappear, or cut it out, or take other drugs to counteract it.

And not being able to get it up doesn’t prevent sexual offenders from committing offences, many of them don’t use that particular part of their anatomy in their offences. Their “drive” may also be reduced, but not completely eliminated (and again, they may find other drugs to take to get their drive back).

I’m not commenting on the rights of wrongs of chemical or physical castration, nor whole of life prison sentences, I am just providing some facts.

IP

Here’s a simple fix. If chemical methods are so unreliable for the reasons you point out IP, why not go for a snip with the tin shears.

Like Proboscus (I think?) said, it’s not something you can be rehabilitated from, these people are born this way, just like heteros, gays, lesbians etc. It may not stop repeat offenders entirely, but thats what long, long gaol terms are for, our safety and that 3 year olds.

As for those people who don’t like the idea because it violates the pedos’ “rights”, in my opinion they’ve broken their social contracts and aren’t entitled to rights.

I’d vote for the ACT Libs if their justice policy included:
Rescind/ exclude the human rights crap applying to AMC
Double AMC capacity
Mandatory sentencing for assaults/sex assaults
Mandatory custodial sentences for repeat drink drivers (irrespective of other factors, because, quite frankly, f$ck their families, they’re happily risking killing people)
Privatise AMC
More cops, more patrols
Fire and replace Murrell and Refshauge
Bring back colonial-era sentencing conventions to the bench (Cory Bernardi is a massive tool, but when he talks about a return to traditional values and traditional practices, harsh sentencing is one thing I’d be happy to have return)

Sure, I’d hate them cutting funding to ACTION/ libraries/public housing/ACT kids dental/ etc/etc/etc/etc/etc/etc/

But, at least ONE issue would be comprehensively and satisfactorily addressed.

colourful sydney racing identity1:27 pm 31 Jan 14

Proboscus said :

My preference for sentencing a child molester would be a bullet or a noose.

There are countries where this would happen, I suspect you would not be in a hurry to choose to live in one.

Just like to also make the point that the 4.5 years non-parole sentence was in relation to two charges, that being the sexual assault of the child and the physical assault of his neighbour earlier that landed the neighbour in hospital.

Now THAT’S outrageous.

Antagonist said :

schmeah said :

But a minimum 4.5 years of jail for this horrible crime is itself a crime.

It is 75% of the maximum sentence that the magistrate could impose. 7 years maximum custodial sentence for this behaviour is the real crime here.

Can you tell me where you got this information from? Neither the ABC nor the Canberra Times report the specific “charge” of which he was convicted. The ABC uses the term “rape” which I don’t think exists in ACT law. The Crimes Act http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/consol_act/ca190082/ includes the definitions and the penalties available. Your comment is also inconsistent with the DPP having lodged an appeal http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/outrage-over-paedophiles-sentence-for-sex-assault-on-threeyearold-girl-20140130-31pbi.html

One issue here may be “charge bargaining”, where the defendant and his legal representative have negotiated for him to plead guilty to a lesser charge than the most serious available. The trouble with this is that it not only reduces the maximum sentence available, but the defendant (now offender, as he has pleaded guilty) also gets a discount for pleading guilty. This would also be inconsistent with the DPP having lodged an appeal, but perhaps they are having second thoughts now they’ve seen the consequences?

In some places the maximum sentence available for “rape” or similar offences is life imprisonment. That would be accompanied by a minimum time to serve in custody, then possible release (by a parole board, and/or the responsible Minister) and lifelong supervision in the community. If the person was never deemed fit for release, they could potentially see out their days in prison. Misbehaviour on parole (not necessarily a new offence) could result in recall to prison, to start the process again.

ACT also does not have the capacity to keep people in prison at the end of their sentence, or even add on supervision time, like most other Australian jurisdictions do (there are pros and cons, and surely it would be preferable to make the right decision at sentencing rather than years later). In 7.5 years this guy will be released, without supervision.

On the plus side, this was a very quick sentencing, and the offender did plead guilty meaning the child did not have to give evidence. I can’t bear to think about how it would have panned out if she had been forced to give evidence, and in fact he might not have been prosecuted and/or convicted.

IP

Chance of rehabilitation shouldn’t even be considered by judges when it comes to sentencing paedophiles because the scumbags can’t be rehabilitated.

Just as heterosexuality and homosexuality aren’t choices made by individuals, paedophiles are born, not made.

My preference for sentencing a child molester would be a bullet or a noose. But I’d be happy with life imprisonment if that’s the only option.

colourful sydney racing identity11:18 am 31 Jan 14

Elf said :

The problem here is the Chief Justice! I wonder if she would be so kind if it was her grandchild. Everyone seemed to agree that he is a serial offender who will keep committing offences when he is released in 2018. The Judge should be thrown in a cell with him. Or at least turfed out. It makes you wonder what universe they live in because in mine this type of offending is not acceptable.

How is the problem the Chief Justice? Please back up your claims with evidence.

schmeah said :

But a minimum 4.5 years of jail for this horrible crime is itself a crime.

It is 75% of the maximum sentence that the magistrate could impose. 7 years maximum custodial sentence for this behaviour is the real crime here.

schmeah said :

annus_horribilis said :

I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.

+1 my left-wing sympathies dissipated people swiftly too.

On the subject of “left-wing” ideals – does anybody regret the fact this individual was *not* “stolen” by the government from the family that brought him up to be the person he eventually became?

A_Cog said :

schmeah said :

…At least the scum bag is named, so his life will never be pretty…

That in itself provides absolutely no safety to the community WHEN he is released. They don’t walk around wearing nametags. He can easily do the same thing again in a library or shop, or jump a fence into a garden where kids are playing.

Upon release from AMC, he’ll be given priority on the public housing list (yes, there’s an AMC-to-public housing list), and he’ll be dropped into some suburb… it could even be in your street.

I for one fervently hope he will never be released. Hopefully the usual suspects at our human rights prison are sharpening up their shanks.

Hosinator said :

I just can’t believe we don’t chemically castrate these types of people at a minimum.

Possibly because it doesn’t work well enough. It’s not permanent – it either requires someone to take daily pills or have an implant which lasts a month or so. So even with the implant it virtually needs to be voluntary because a non-voluntary “participant” will just disappear, or cut it out, or take other drugs to counteract it.

And not being able to get it up doesn’t prevent sexual offenders from committing offences, many of them don’t use that particular part of their anatomy in their offences. Their “drive” may also be reduced, but not completely eliminated (and again, they may find other drugs to take to get their drive back).

I’m not commenting on the rights of wrongs of chemical or physical castration, nor whole of life prison sentences, I am just providing some facts.

IP

schmeah said :


I wasn’t saying it would make the community safe, just that it’ll make his life rubbish in and out of the clink. Applying for a job, making friends, etc. it’s no justice to the girl of course. I’m not such a simpleton that I think sex offenders wear name tags…

Calm down, my comment wasn’t trying to misinterpret yours. I’m trying to say that naming him is nothing. Further to your point about how, from now on because he’s been named he WILL have a crap life, he ALREADY DOES have a crap life, and has for some time. He’s aboriginal, a drug addict, jailed repeatedly. Anyone in any of those categories already has a crappy life.

But this d-bag is a violent racist, a thug, and a serial kiddy-fiddler. Wtf is a 4.5 year stretch in the clink?

Last time I checked, the sentencing provisions gave ACT judges SEVEN grounds to consider when sentencing: justice, deterrence, protecting the community, rehabilitation, personal accountability, denunciation, recognition of harm to victim. (In other states, there are only five factors, so here in the ACT, judges have even more grounds to rely upon to smash these scumbags, BUT THEY RARELY DO SO, which is why so many of my comments on RA rip into Higgins, Refshauge and Murrell.)

ANY SINGLE ONE of those seven f$cking factors should lead Murrell CJ to lock him up for the maximum, and forego parole. Leave it for that d-bag to appeal. So we got rid of Higgins CJ, and now we’ve got ANOTHER light touch CJ. What. Are. The. Chances.

And while I’m on the topic of sentencing, king-hit sentences don’t need to be about deterrence, so any talking head on TV saying deterrence doesn’t work hasn’t read the sentencing provisions of their own jurisdiction… But hey, that won’t stop them talking rubbish on The Drum, making everyone think minimum sentences are a bad idea. Based on the ‘ongoing safety of the community’ angle + condemnation/denunciation + victim impact, give ’em the max. Screw their “prospects of rehabilitation” coz these are spun by all the shonky references they submit about “he’s never done it before, he’s such a great guy, he’s got kids…”

I’m super happy for my tax dollars to go to privatised prisons where inmates are abused. There are some things the criminal justice system cannot solve.

I’m hoping snorkel shanks this stain in AMC. #pleasesnorkelmakethisguydisappear

Elf said :

A_Cog said :

schmeah said :

…At least the scum bag is named, so his life will never be pretty…

That in itself provides absolutely no safety to the community WHEN he is released. They don’t walk around wearing nametags. He can easily do the same thing again in a library or shop, or jump a fence into a garden where kids are playing.

Upon release from AMC, he’ll be given priority on the public housing list (yes, there’s an AMC-to-public housing list), and he’ll be dropped into some suburb… it could even be in your street.

I bet it’s not the Chief Justices suburb or Katy Gallagher’s for that matter!

Oh you can rant better than that surely? If one post didnt make us all “really think about it” surely this subtle second addition must really make your devastating point. We get it, its that darn Chief Justice to blame.

Queen_of_the_Bun1:28 pm 30 Jan 14

schmeah said :

annus_horribilis said :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046
Today the perpetrator was sentenced. I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.
This scum should hang as it is clear that he will do it again in the next 4 to 7 years

+1 my left-wing sympathies dissipated people swiftly too. At least the scum bag is named, so his life will never be pretty. My full sympathies to the poor child and her family.

But a minimum 4.5 years of jail for this horrible crime is itself a crime.

I know my family and I feel safer that we are having a debate about imposing minimum sentences on alcohol fist fights. Don’t you?

I felt sick to the stomach thinking about the mother seeing this happening. Just awful.

A_Cog said :

schmeah said :

…At least the scum bag is named, so his life will never be pretty…

That in itself provides absolutely no safety to the community WHEN he is released. They don’t walk around wearing nametags. He can easily do the same thing again in a library or shop, or jump a fence into a garden where kids are playing.

Upon release from AMC, he’ll be given priority on the public housing list (yes, there’s an AMC-to-public housing list), and he’ll be dropped into some suburb… it could even be in your street.

I wasn’t saying it would make the community safe, just that it’ll make his life rubbish in and out of the clink. Applying for a job, making friends, etc. it’s no justice to the girl of course. I’m not such a simpleton that I think sex offenders wear name tags.

His sentence is insulting.

A_Cog said :

schmeah said :

…At least the scum bag is named, so his life will never be pretty…

That in itself provides absolutely no safety to the community WHEN he is released. They don’t walk around wearing nametags. He can easily do the same thing again in a library or shop, or jump a fence into a garden where kids are playing.

Upon release from AMC, he’ll be given priority on the public housing list (yes, there’s an AMC-to-public housing list), and he’ll be dropped into some suburb… it could even be in your street.

I bet it’s not the Chief Justices suburb or Katy Gallagher’s for that matter!

The problem here is the Chief Justice! I wonder if she would be so kind if it was her grandchild. Everyone seemed to agree that he is a serial offender who will keep committing offences when he is released in 2018. The Judge should be thrown in a cell with him. Or at least turfed out. It makes you wonder what universe they live in because in mine this type of offending is not acceptable.

schmeah said :

…At least the scum bag is named, so his life will never be pretty…

That in itself provides absolutely no safety to the community WHEN he is released. They don’t walk around wearing nametags. He can easily do the same thing again in a library or shop, or jump a fence into a garden where kids are playing.

Upon release from AMC, he’ll be given priority on the public housing list (yes, there’s an AMC-to-public housing list), and he’ll be dropped into some suburb… it could even be in your street.

annus_horribilis said :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046
Today the perpetrator was sentenced. I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.
This scum should hang as it is clear that he will do it again in the next 4 to 7 years

The good news is that both Left and Right have a sound track record in summary execution. Whether you’re commie or right-wing nationalist, you can have your cake and eat it.

Personally I have no problems reconciling those left ideals that I might support with the neutering of this special kind of lowlife with a jagged rusty spoon. But maybe my left ideals aren’t as left as others.

annus_horribilis said :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046
Today the perpetrator was sentenced. I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.
This scum should hang as it is clear that he will do it again in the next 4 to 7 years

+1 my left-wing sympathies dissipated people swiftly too. At least the scum bag is named, so his life will never be pretty. My full sympathies to the poor child and her family.

But a minimum 4.5 years of jail for this horrible crime is itself a crime.

I know my family and I feel safer that we are having a debate about imposing minimum sentences on alcohol fist fights. Don’t you?

Hosinator said :

annus_horribilis said :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046
Today the perpetrator was sentenced. I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.
This scum should hang as it is clear that he will do it again in the next 4 to 7 years

Same. Horrible to think what she went through. I just can’t believe we don’t chemically castrate these types of people at a minimum. Or never to be released from custody.

Agreed. Chemical castration should be in the sentencing guidelines for these sort of offences. I don’t give a sh!t what mental health diagnosis a person may or may not have, presumably this would have been put forward in defence. There is no acceptable excuse for the harm of a child.

And I support what Banco said,

annus_horribilis said :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046
Today the perpetrator was sentenced. I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.
This scum should hang as it is clear that he will do it again in the next 4 to 7 years

Same. Horrible to think what she went through. I just can’t believe we don’t chemically castrate these types of people at a minimum. Or never to be released from custody.

Serial sex offender now targeting defenceless toddlers? Rot in jail. Your abusive upbringing is no excuse to pay it foward.

annus_horribilis8:18 pm 29 Jan 14

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046
Today the perpetrator was sentenced. I died a little inside reading the details, and all my left wing ideals went out the window.
This scum should hang as it is clear that he will do it again in the next 4 to 7 years

rigseismic67 said :

What type of assault was it? And why didn’t someone smash the bastard

Hopefully the boys at the Alexander Machonchie Centre step up to the plate.

As above.
Shut up Darkfalz.

PrinceOfAles2:47 pm 07 Sep 13

Darkfalz said :

I refrained from the obvious joke here. I hope you are all proud of me.

Obvious joke? I`ve never heard anything funny about a child being assaulted.

Darkfalz said :

I refrained from the obvious joke here. I hope you are all proud of me.

There was a joke in there somewhere? I guess I don’t see any humor in the assault of a kid. I guess I’m just not ‘edgy’ enough for that.

Darkfalz said :

I refrained from the obvious joke here. I hope you are all proud of me.

No idea what you’re talking about. Shut up.

I refrained from the obvious joke here. I hope you are all proud of me.

rigseismic679:29 pm 06 Sep 13

What type of assault was it? And why didn’t someone smash the bastard

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