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Big brother gets his groove on. Point to point is hot to trot

johnboy 22 September 2011 65

A busy Simon Corbell has informed us that his point-to-point speed camera legislation has passed the Legislative Assembly.

The first point to point system is being built on Hindmarsh Drive and is expected to become operational later this year. A second system is expected to be commissioned in 2012.

The system uses cameras equipped with with Automated Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology, and scans photographs to identify vehicle numberplates. The system takes time-stamped photographs of vehicles as they pass two places (detection points) set at a known distance apart. If the average speed exceeds the average speed limit between those points, an infringement notice for a speeding offence may be issued.

ANPR technology is already used in the ACT, as part of ACT Policing’s RAPID (Recognition and Analysis of Plates IDentified) system to detect offences involving unregistered or uninsured vehicles and unlicensed drivers.

“The system photographs only the back of vehicles and the images do not identify drivers or riders,” Mr Corbell said.

“There are strong safeguards to protect personal information, and the legislation explicitly restricts access to and use of these images. Images that do not show offences will be destroyed after 14 days.

Simon assures us they won’t be used to track our movements.


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65 Responses to Big brother gets his groove on. Point to point is hot to trot
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milkman milkman 2:04 pm 30 Sep 11

@ Jimbo Jones.

Having just replied to you, I’m now thinking that you are probably the most deliberately argumentative person on this site. Congrats!

milkman milkman 2:03 pm 30 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

milkman said :

Jim Jones said :

milkman said :

The issue here is the slavish following of speed limits in the belief that it somehow makes driving ‘safe’.

How is that an issue? You’re the only one who’s mentioned it.

No one has said anything even vaguely similar to that.

What about use of the term ‘no such thing as safe speeding’? Zippy brought up exactly this point.

Saying ‘there is no such thing as safe speeding’ does not in imply that ‘not speeding = complete safety’ any more than saying ‘swans are white’ implies that all white things are swans.

That’s basic logic right there.

Agreed. Which is exactly why I said that following speed limits slavishly in the belief that you are safe is incorrect.

poetix poetix 1:56 pm 30 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

milkman said :

Jim Jones said :

milkman said :

The issue here is the slavish following of speed limits in the belief that it somehow makes driving ‘safe’.

How is that an issue? You’re the only one who’s mentioned it.

No one has said anything even vaguely similar to that.

What about use of the term ‘no such thing as safe speeding’? Zippy brought up exactly this point.

Saying ‘there is no such thing as safe speeding’ does not in imply that ‘not speeding = complete safety’ any more than saying ‘swans are white’ implies that all white things are swans.

That’s basic logic right there.

Do you mean to suggest that black swans are not swans?

Jim Jones Jim Jones 12:31 pm 30 Sep 11

milkman said :

Jim Jones said :

milkman said :

The issue here is the slavish following of speed limits in the belief that it somehow makes driving ‘safe’.

How is that an issue? You’re the only one who’s mentioned it.

No one has said anything even vaguely similar to that.

What about use of the term ‘no such thing as safe speeding’? Zippy brought up exactly this point.

Saying ‘there is no such thing as safe speeding’ does not in imply that ‘not speeding = complete safety’ any more than saying ‘swans are white’ implies that all white things are swans.

That’s basic logic right there.

milkman milkman 11:46 am 30 Sep 11

Holden Caulfield said :

Palifox said :

And how far apart are these points? Suppose I drive from Weston Creek to Fyshwick and fluke most of the traffic lights green. My point to point speed is far higher than usual, even though I may be 5kph below the posted limits all the way.

qbngeek said :

It needs to be set up between the traffic lights or it will be worse than useless

And they are.

It looks like the detectors will work for both directions of traffic with one set of cameras set up 100-200m west of the Dalrymple St/Mugga Lane traffic lights. The other cameras are positioned several hundred metres east of the Palmer St lights.

NSW has point to point cameras set up near Lake George on the freeway. Be interesting to see whether things have changed much (in terms of average speeds, accidents, etc).

milkman milkman 11:45 am 30 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

milkman said :

The issue here is the slavish following of speed limits in the belief that it somehow makes driving ‘safe’.

How is that an issue? You’re the only one who’s mentioned it.

No one has said anything even vaguely similar to that.

What about use of the term ‘no such thing as safe speeding’? Zippy brought up exactly this point.

Holden Caulfield Holden Caulfield 11:34 am 30 Sep 11

Palifox said :

And how far apart are these points? Suppose I drive from Weston Creek to Fyshwick and fluke most of the traffic lights green. My point to point speed is far higher than usual, even though I may be 5kph below the posted limits all the way.

qbngeek said :

It needs to be set up between the traffic lights or it will be worse than useless

And they are.

It looks like the detectors will work for both directions of traffic with one set of cameras set up 100-200m west of the Dalrymple St/Mugga Lane traffic lights. The other cameras are positioned several hundred metres east of the Palmer St lights.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 9:32 am 30 Sep 11

milkman said :

The issue here is the slavish following of speed limits in the belief that it somehow makes driving ‘safe’.

How is that an issue? You’re the only one who’s mentioned it.

No one has said anything even vaguely similar to that.

milkman milkman 7:19 am 30 Sep 11

zippyzippy said :

milkman said :

jrsubs said :

All, — ALL—-, the people I know who smugly say ‘if you speed you deserve to get caught’ are people who fundamentally don’t know how to drive. They can’t assess situations, they have no idea about relative speed, they just rely on obeying the speed limit to make them ‘safe’ in lieu of actually driving with thought or using even a modicum of expertise.

+ 1000000000000

I find the conceit in this attitude mind-boggling. (i wasn’t going to mention it until someone ’+1000000000000’d it’). You’re effectively 1) endorsing the myth of ’safe speeding’ and 2) saying you’re a special driver who is better than anyone else. Both of which are dangerous attitudes. Ever seen those surveys where 90% of drivers say that they would be in the top 10% of most skilled drivers? And anyway, you know that no matter what your skill, you can’t do anything about random events – animal runs on the road, another car brakes or pulls out etc – and that small differences in speed make a very big difference in terms of severity of an accident…. Anyway, i’m not going to go on about it anymore.

Ps: the media watch page is really full of excellent info at the moment that all the counters should look at.

The issue here is the slavish following of speed limits in the belief that it somehow makes driving ‘safe’. You (not me, remember) introduced the term ‘safe speeeding’, which is an advertising buzzword that illustrates this perfectly. Do you think you are safe if you don’t speed? I know plenty of people who carry on about how they ‘never speed’, but ride with them and it’s scary as hell, as they have no idea what’s going on around them.

Also, I’m not saying I’m a special driver (again, your words), rather that I would rather consider risk in a more pragmatic way, and have road safety measures that lead to better outcomes. Read my post above the one you quoted as an example.

Speeding is only one factor that relates to road safety, and when speed cameras aren’t even routinely used in high risk or blackspot areas it is hard to see such measures as genuinely useful. Where are the fixed speed cameras in school zones, for example?

humm humm 9:48 pm 29 Sep 11

I support red light cameras, but then here is my conspiracy theory. At far too many instances the signal operation is different to any other intersection and one can clearly see it to be opportunist. For example where you have a red light camera the intersection signals will give green to a turn even if no vehicle was present, giving a possible false start to person opposite who is expecting a green light as in any other sitation. And no matter at what time of night you go to that intersection it has a set operation and does not follow vehicle sensors.

Secondly the times from green to red are actually different and Amber to red is far little than at any other intersection.

Now some person who does program the CPU’s on these lights may shed more light but every time I see an intersection with a camera these symptoms seem to prop up.

And finally driving is a skill that can be improved and there needs to be stress upon that rather than giving a log book once in life and then never revisiting the mistakes you made there, and for some unfortunately they become habbits and then are too hard to change.

zippyzippy zippyzippy 9:41 pm 29 Sep 11

That should say ‘all the doubters should look at’. Auto-correct.

zippyzippy zippyzippy 9:39 pm 29 Sep 11

milkman said :

jrsubs said :

All, — ALL—-, the people I know who smugly say ‘if you speed you deserve to get caught’ are people who fundamentally don’t know how to drive. They can’t assess situations, they have no idea about relative speed, they just rely on obeying the speed limit to make them ‘safe’ in lieu of actually driving with thought or using even a modicum of expertise.

+ 1000000000000

I find the conceit in this attitude mind-boggling. (i wasn’t going to mention it until someone ’+1000000000000’d it’). You’re effectively 1) endorsing the myth of ’safe speeding’ and 2) saying you’re a special driver who is better than anyone else. Both of which are dangerous attitudes. Ever seen those surveys where 90% of drivers say that they would be in the top 10% of most skilled drivers? And anyway, you know that no matter what your skill, you can’t do anything about random events – animal runs on the road, another car brakes or pulls out etc – and that small differences in speed make a very big difference in terms of severity of an accident…. Anyway, i’m not going to go on about it anymore.

Ps: the media watch page is really full of excellent info at the moment that all the counters should look at.

milkman milkman 8:06 pm 29 Sep 11

jrsubs said :

All, — ALL—-, the people I know who smugly say ‘if you speed you deserve to get caught’ are people who fundamentally don’t know how to drive. They can’t assess situations, they have no idea about relative speed, they just rely on obeying the speed limit to make them ‘safe’ in lieu of actually driving with thought or using even a modicum of expertise.

+ 1000000000000

milkman milkman 8:04 pm 29 Sep 11

I’d be a big supporter of speed cameras if they were placed in locations known to have speed related accidents, or in places where the speed limit needs to be held low for a specific reason.

The cameras on the Monaro Hwy, for example, are pure revenue raising.

And no, I’ve never been done by one.

And FWIW, I remember clearly the nasty accident being referred to on Hindmarsh Drive (about 15 years ago I’d guess). It was 4 young lads from a local private school borrowing daddy’s new falcon, and they left the road at over 160km/h. One of the parents also tried to sue the driver the of the truck they hit (which was parked well off on the grass).

humm humm 7:06 pm 29 Sep 11

It may have been discussed before but the location is quiet clear to confirm that it is a revenue raising affair. How does putting the cameras on gradients check the real accuracy of speed? I have not seen this stretch of road to be unsafe as there is a gradient and just because there is a slope and cars may be going faster due to laws of motion does not constitute an accurate description of road safety. I would be very tempted to see the research behind the justification of why these spots were chosen over others. It is no different than any other place. Victoria recently had their P2P cameras turned off due to technical inconsistencies. I am all for road safety but this is not making roads any safer. I see too many idiots every where else where they know no one is looking. I don’t have the solution but we need more education and more government incentive to good drivers.

Erg0 Erg0 10:15 am 27 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Ah the lulz:

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s3326211.htm

Beat me to it. Agreeing with A Current Affair should always be seen as a warning sign.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 10:01 am 27 Sep 11
zippyzippy zippyzippy 9:05 pm 23 Sep 11

Not just the nsw auditor general found they were improving safety, also the Victorian auditor general. Just this year. Auditor generals have a fairly good reputation for being thorough, independent and willing to criticize if they need to. But nope.

Really, you just need to get over it. There’re going to be speed cameras around to catch you if you speed. Don’t speed.

Mysteryman Mysteryman 4:34 pm 23 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

The evidence in favour of them is ubiquitous now? Give me a break. I bet you haven’t even read the study you keep referring to.

As opposed to all the evidence that you have, but can’t link to because you’re much too busy.

Hell, even the NSW auditor general showed that speed cameras overall were indeed improving safety (see above).

Is he also part of the government conspiracy?

A simple “no. I’m just copying and pasting news links without ever having read any of the study” would have been sufficient, thanks.

Erg0 Erg0 4:08 pm 23 Sep 11

Not to worry, your superhuman senses will alert you any time there’s a speed camera nearby, and you can just shave off 40km/h to get under the speed limit until you’re past it.

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