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Big brother gets his groove on. Point to point is hot to trot

johnboy 22 September 2011 65

A busy Simon Corbell has informed us that his point-to-point speed camera legislation has passed the Legislative Assembly.

The first point to point system is being built on Hindmarsh Drive and is expected to become operational later this year. A second system is expected to be commissioned in 2012.

The system uses cameras equipped with with Automated Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology, and scans photographs to identify vehicle numberplates. The system takes time-stamped photographs of vehicles as they pass two places (detection points) set at a known distance apart. If the average speed exceeds the average speed limit between those points, an infringement notice for a speeding offence may be issued.

ANPR technology is already used in the ACT, as part of ACT Policing’s RAPID (Recognition and Analysis of Plates IDentified) system to detect offences involving unregistered or uninsured vehicles and unlicensed drivers.

“The system photographs only the back of vehicles and the images do not identify drivers or riders,” Mr Corbell said.

“There are strong safeguards to protect personal information, and the legislation explicitly restricts access to and use of these images. Images that do not show offences will be destroyed after 14 days.

Simon assures us they won’t be used to track our movements.


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65 Responses to Big brother gets his groove on. Point to point is hot to trot
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Mysteryman Mysteryman 3:01 pm 23 Sep 11

The evidence in favour of them is ubiquitous now? Give me a break. I bet you haven’t even read the study you keep referring to.

johnboy johnboy 3:00 pm 23 Sep 11

I think it’s clear from the debate surrounding it that the police see much more potential in these than just road safety.

allyroger allyroger 2:59 pm 23 Sep 11

ok so you don’t like the daily mail telling you the facts – here are some more, google is your friend if you want to educate yourself on the subject. Remember that the UK has speed cameras everywhere and has had them including point to point for a long time. Sources are referenced in the articles

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/29/2913.asp
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/00/33.asp

what_the what_the 2:57 pm 23 Sep 11

I’m not 100% on the veracity of the claims on this site, but it seems to be fairly well researched.
http://www.roadsense.com.au/facts.html
http://www.roadsense.com.au/misleading_data.html#twopercent

Problem is, the reasons for the existence of speed cameras dont stack up. It allows lazy politicians to make out like they’re doing something. Anyone who’s every worked for the government knows that numbers are easier to control than behaviours and easily measured policies. My biggest issue with speed cameras is that it allows goverments to abdicate their responsibility of providing the best training possible producing the safest drivers possible or adding to the number of police that can actually observe crap driver behaviour and punish it accordingly. To add insult to injury, the revenue collected from cameras which are supposed to be directed to road safety initiatives If it wasn’t a revenue raising exercise, then why are speed camera revenue predictions factored into budgets?

At the same time it gives some drivers a false sense of superiority (for lack of a better word), I mean how many times have you heard I dont speed I’m a good driver, I’ve heard this from many friends who couldn’t drive to save themselves, especially in an emergency situation. I have a feeling that many people who blindly support speed cameras need them to convince themselves they’re the best driver out there. The real good drivers actually go out and better their driving skills through courses and emergency techniques. I’ve never lost a point! Big deal, you might not have ever been caught. My grans never lost a point either, but I’m sure she’s cause about a million accident, but oh, she follows the speed limit… (rant off).

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:49 pm 23 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Where are the opposing studies then? I’ve had a good look at the subject, and the only opposing views seem to come from vested interests editorialising without any evidence.

I haven’t seen stats on Canberra road safety, so I have no idea of the levels of effectiveness of speed cameras. The only opinion I could offer would be anecdotal – that they function very well as traffic calming devices: people don’t speed through areas they know (or suspect) have speed cameras in them.

Regardless, I’m not going to ignore a bunch of peer-reviewed scientific studies simply because it doesn’t accord with my opinion.

To quote Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

It’s a nice quote. Look for the facts related to ACT roads and come back when you’ve changed your mind.

What facts? Seriously – give me some evidence or data and I’m ready to look at it.

The absence of data is not evidence of anything.

The data is there, on the ABS website. As mentioned earlier, I’m at work so I don’t have the time to retrieve it for you.

The data the ABS has is going to be about rates of accidents on ACT roads – to look at efficiency of speed cameras, there’s a lot more work to do: correlating against rates of traffic on the roads, looking at the particular areas where cameras are positioned, etc.

If you (or anyone, for that matter), has data that shows that speed cameras are ineffective in the ACT, then I’d be keen to see it.

It’s telling that, for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, nobody has actually provided any such data, while peer reviewed evidence attesting to the effectiveness of speed cameras is almost ubiquitous.

Mysteryman Mysteryman 2:42 pm 23 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Where are the opposing studies then? I’ve had a good look at the subject, and the only opposing views seem to come from vested interests editorialising without any evidence.

I haven’t seen stats on Canberra road safety, so I have no idea of the levels of effectiveness of speed cameras. The only opinion I could offer would be anecdotal – that they function very well as traffic calming devices: people don’t speed through areas they know (or suspect) have speed cameras in them.

Regardless, I’m not going to ignore a bunch of peer-reviewed scientific studies simply because it doesn’t accord with my opinion.

To quote Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

It’s a nice quote. Look for the facts related to ACT roads and come back when you’ve changed your mind.

What facts? Seriously – give me some evidence or data and I’m ready to look at it.

The absence of data is not evidence of anything.

The data is there, on the ABS website. As mentioned earlier, I’m at work so I don’t have the time to retrieve it for you.

zippyzippy zippyzippy 2:41 pm 23 Sep 11

allyroger said :

Why has NSW cut off a bunch of cameras recently?

Red Light Cameras are a different story but speed cameras do not increase safety and are purely revenue raisers.

Ha ha – because it was a Liberal Party election promise, that’s why. They cut the ones that the auditor general said were not reducing accidents. But, once again, that study by the NSW auditor general showed that speed cameras overall were indeed improving safety.

“The audit found that:
• total crashes and injuries each fell 26 per cent, and fatalities fell by more than two-thirds, in the three years after the installation of fixed speed camera. Long term trends show that these reductions have been maintained
• the average number of speeding fines per fixed and safety cameras declines over time
• fixed and safety speed cameras were located in areas with high road safety risk.”

In fact, maybe that NSW scenario puts this whole thing in some context. The A-G found some of the individual cameras weren’t reducing accidents. Liberal Party takes them out with fanfare and everyone goes “yeah! the speed cameras don’t work!” (I’m sure the UK Daily Mail would have been onto that). And they conveniently ignore the overall finding of the A-G that the speed cameras were actually improving safety.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:38 pm 23 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Where are the opposing studies then? I’ve had a good look at the subject, and the only opposing views seem to come from vested interests editorialising without any evidence.

I haven’t seen stats on Canberra road safety, so I have no idea of the levels of effectiveness of speed cameras. The only opinion I could offer would be anecdotal – that they function very well as traffic calming devices: people don’t speed through areas they know (or suspect) have speed cameras in them.

Regardless, I’m not going to ignore a bunch of peer-reviewed scientific studies simply because it doesn’t accord with my opinion.

To quote Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

It’s a nice quote. Look for the facts related to ACT roads and come back when you’ve changed your mind.

What facts? Seriously – give me some evidence or data and I’m ready to look at it.

The absence of data is not evidence of anything.

buzz819 buzz819 2:34 pm 23 Sep 11

I think one of the points most people leave out when discussing speed camera’s is “They work great at reducing accidents within a defined radius of where they are implemented.”

I don’t think that people are disputing that they don’t work, I think they are more emotional about the implementation of them in the ACT.

Last year there were 18 or so fatalities in the ACT, Monaro and Canberra Avenue, no speed camera, Erindale Drive, no speed Camera, I can’t remember the other locations off the top of my head, but that counts for 6 of the fatalities. Are there speed camera’s in those locations? No.

Where the current speed camera’s are, Hindmarsh, Tuggy Parkway x 2, Federal Highway, Monaro Highway x 2, Canberra Ave and Captain Cook Cres, Northboure and Barry Drive, Marcus Clarke and Barry Drive, Northbourne and Antil etc. I can’t remember, in recent years how many fatal accident’s have occurred at those intersections, I don’t believe any, I might be wrong, I just can’t remember any. Are they HIGH accident zones, or just high traffic complaint zones?

While speed does contribute to death’s, there is always other circumstances, Erindale Drive – could have been speed and playing with an iPod, Monaro Highway – Speed and getting away from the Police etc. I don’t believe reducing the speed will stop the crash, it just lower’s the seriousness of the crash.

Having a speed camera on Drakeford Drive and Marconi Crescent is not going to stop a fatal accident on Kuringa Drive etc.

The Government needs to stop selling lie’s to it’s people to raise money. If they were to say “It has been shown that having speed camera’s effectively lower’s the speed at the area’s they are installed.” I don’t think anyone could really argue with them, that is what it does, if people then speed through those area’s they get a fine.

Speed Camera’s work at certain things, they aren’t going to fix the way Canberran’s drive, they aren’t going to stop fatalities or crashes, but they help reduce the amount of people who speed through area’s where they are implemented.

Mysteryman Mysteryman 2:33 pm 23 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Where are the opposing studies then? I’ve had a good look at the subject, and the only opposing views seem to come from vested interests editorialising without any evidence.

I haven’t seen stats on Canberra road safety, so I have no idea of the levels of effectiveness of speed cameras. The only opinion I could offer would be anecdotal – that they function very well as traffic calming devices: people don’t speed through areas they know (or suspect) have speed cameras in them.

Regardless, I’m not going to ignore a bunch of peer-reviewed scientific studies simply because it doesn’t accord with my opinion.

To quote Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

It’s a nice quote. Look for the facts related to ACT roads and come back when you’ve changed your mind.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:26 pm 23 Sep 11

allyroger said :

There are plenty of studies that show speed cameras cause more accidents:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2029361/Speed-cameras-cut-accidents–create-study-finds.html

Why has NSW cut off a bunch of cameras recently?

Red Light Cameras are a different story but speed cameras do not increase safety and are purely revenue raisers.

With respect, the Daily Mail is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal, it’s a grubby UK Tabloid famous for paying buckets of cash in libel lawsuits.

steveu steveu 2:21 pm 23 Sep 11

Without hoping to upset anyone, Im sure after 7 years of speed cameras, if there had been a reduction in road fatalities, there would be media releases about it advertising this fact. I think the silence has been deafening. All we have heard thoguh is how much money they have made.

All that being said Im sorry to say I do recall a very horrible fatality on hindmarsh drive (heading west, towards woden) where a few people were killed due to young fellas hooning their overpowered (for them) vehicle. If they have to have controls on any stretch of road in Canberra, this would be the place I would prefer it the most becuase of this.

allyroger allyroger 2:14 pm 23 Sep 11

There are plenty of studies that show speed cameras cause more accidents:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2029361/Speed-cameras-cut-accidents–create-study-finds.html

Why has NSW cut off a bunch of cameras recently?

Red Light Cameras are a different story but speed cameras do not increase safety and are purely revenue raisers.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:08 pm 23 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Speed cameras don’t improve road safety or reduce serious collisions. It’s been proven time and time again.

Where?

All the peer reviewed evidence I’ve seen shows that controlling and reducing speeding contributes to lower accident rates.

http://www.physorg.com/news140443278.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/death-rate-down-at-speed-camera-sites-755740.html
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101006/Speed-cameras-reduce-road-accidents-significantly-Study.aspx
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/

etc.

The first link – news report to 1 study that suggests cameras work.
The second link – a news report about a study funded by a government that was in favour of speed cameras.
The third link – looks interesting, but I can’t find any information on who funded the study, or the actual findings.
The fourth link – goes to a website about accidents, not any actual info.

I’m at work so I don’t have the luxury of spending time googling studies and posting link after link of studies that found speed cameras to be ineffectual, but answer this: has there been a noticeable improvement in accident numbers and fatalities in the ACT since the introduction of speed cameras?

Meh, you can ignore evidence if you want – from those links I provided there are links to absolute stacks of peer-reviewed studies, including the one that analyzed 35 other studies.

Regardless, it puts the lie to the comment that “Speed cameras don’t improve road safety or reduce serious collisions. It’s been proven time and time again.”

No, it doesn’t. It puts forth an opposing argument. There are numerous studies that have found the opposite, which is why the study you keep harping on about hasn’t made the impact that people like you are obviously hoping for.

Why not answer my question? If they are as effective as you think they are, then they would have had an effect on the stats for the ACT, wouldn’t they? We’ve had speed cameras in Canberra for roughly 7 years now. Have our roads gotten safer? Have we recorded less accidents and less fatalities?

Where are the opposing studies then? I’ve had a good look at the subject, and the only opposing views seem to come from vested interests editorialising without any evidence.

I haven’t seen stats on Canberra road safety, so I have no idea of the levels of effectiveness of speed cameras. The only opinion I could offer would be anecdotal – that they function very well as traffic calming devices: people don’t speed through areas they know (or suspect) have speed cameras in them.

Regardless, I’m not going to ignore a bunch of peer-reviewed scientific studies simply because it doesn’t accord with my opinion.

To quote Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

Mysteryman Mysteryman 2:02 pm 23 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Speed cameras don’t improve road safety or reduce serious collisions. It’s been proven time and time again.

Where?

All the peer reviewed evidence I’ve seen shows that controlling and reducing speeding contributes to lower accident rates.

http://www.physorg.com/news140443278.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/death-rate-down-at-speed-camera-sites-755740.html
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101006/Speed-cameras-reduce-road-accidents-significantly-Study.aspx
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/

etc.

The first link – news report to 1 study that suggests cameras work.
The second link – a news report about a study funded by a government that was in favour of speed cameras.
The third link – looks interesting, but I can’t find any information on who funded the study, or the actual findings.
The fourth link – goes to a website about accidents, not any actual info.

I’m at work so I don’t have the luxury of spending time googling studies and posting link after link of studies that found speed cameras to be ineffectual, but answer this: has there been a noticeable improvement in accident numbers and fatalities in the ACT since the introduction of speed cameras?

Meh, you can ignore evidence if you want – from those links I provided there are links to absolute stacks of peer-reviewed studies, including the one that analyzed 35 other studies.

Regardless, it puts the lie to the comment that “Speed cameras don’t improve road safety or reduce serious collisions. It’s been proven time and time again.”

No, it doesn’t. It puts forth an opposing argument. There are numerous studies that have found the opposite, which is why the study you keep harping on about hasn’t made the impact that people like you are obviously hoping for.

Why not answer my question? If they are as effective as you think they are, then they would have had an effect on the stats for the ACT, wouldn’t they? We’ve had speed cameras in Canberra for roughly 7 years now. Have our roads gotten safer? Have we recorded less accidents and less fatalities?

Jim Jones Jim Jones 1:28 pm 23 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Speed cameras don’t improve road safety or reduce serious collisions. It’s been proven time and time again.

Where?

All the peer reviewed evidence I’ve seen shows that controlling and reducing speeding contributes to lower accident rates.

http://www.physorg.com/news140443278.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/death-rate-down-at-speed-camera-sites-755740.html
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101006/Speed-cameras-reduce-road-accidents-significantly-Study.aspx
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/

etc.

The first link – news report to 1 study that suggests cameras work.
The second link – a news report about a study funded by a government that was in favour of speed cameras.
The third link – looks interesting, but I can’t find any information on who funded the study, or the actual findings.
The fourth link – goes to a website about accidents, not any actual info.

I’m at work so I don’t have the luxury of spending time googling studies and posting link after link of studies that found speed cameras to be ineffectual, but answer this: has there been a noticeable improvement in accident numbers and fatalities in the ACT since the introduction of speed cameras?

Meh, you can ignore evidence if you want – from those links I provided there are links to absolute stacks of peer-reviewed studies, including the one that analyzed 35 other studies.

Regardless, it puts the lie to the comment that “Speed cameras don’t improve road safety or reduce serious collisions. It’s been proven time and time again.”

Mysteryman Mysteryman 1:07 pm 23 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Speed cameras don’t improve road safety or reduce serious collisions. It’s been proven time and time again.

Where?

All the peer reviewed evidence I’ve seen shows that controlling and reducing speeding contributes to lower accident rates.

http://www.physorg.com/news140443278.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/death-rate-down-at-speed-camera-sites-755740.html
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101006/Speed-cameras-reduce-road-accidents-significantly-Study.aspx
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/

etc.

The first link – news report to 1 study that suggests cameras work.
The second link – a news report about a study funded by a government that was in favour of speed cameras.
The third link – looks interesting, but I can’t find any information on who funded the study, or the actual findings.
The fourth link – goes to a website about accidents, not any actual info.

I’m at work so I don’t have the luxury of spending time googling studies and posting link after link of studies that found speed cameras to be ineffectual, but answer this: has there been a noticeable improvement in accident numbers and fatalities in the ACT since the introduction of speed cameras?

zippyzippy zippyzippy 12:51 pm 23 Sep 11
p1 p1 12:43 pm 23 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

“A study was conducted by Australia’s University of Queensland. They analyzed 35 studies from Australia, the United States, Canada, Germany, Denmark, Finland, Britain, Hong Kong, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Norway and saw the usefulness of speed cameras in preventing accidents.”

“Collated findings from all the studies showed that speed cameras cut the average speed by 1-15 percent and the percentage of vehicles that exceeded local speed limits between 14 percent and 65 percent. The numbers of crashes in the areas of the cameras also fell by between 8 percent and 49 percent, while fatal or serious injury crashes reduced by between 11 percent and 44 percent.”

Peer-reviewed, scientific method, collating findings from 35 studies.

Seems to me, that if putting in a speed camera is going to result in a reduction in crashes between 8 and 49 per cent, then putting the speed camera somewhere where there are *lots* of accidents would seem to be the way to maximise road safety? There are always lots of crashes out on Point Hut Rd for example. Yet the speed cameras have mostly been placed roads like the Tuggeranong Parkway (and not on the few bends and blind rises, but on the dead straight bit). At least these point to point camera systems will be checking the speed of people going over the somewhat blind crest on Hindmarsh.

Personally I would rather see the Government introduce mobile speed cameras until they reach saturation.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 12:20 pm 23 Sep 11

“A study was conducted by Australia’s University of Queensland. They analyzed 35 studies from Australia, the United States, Canada, Germany, Denmark, Finland, Britain, Hong Kong, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Norway and saw the usefulness of speed cameras in preventing accidents.”

“Collated findings from all the studies showed that speed cameras cut the average speed by 1-15 percent and the percentage of vehicles that exceeded local speed limits between 14 percent and 65 percent. The numbers of crashes in the areas of the cameras also fell by between 8 percent and 49 percent, while fatal or serious injury crashes reduced by between 11 percent and 44 percent.”

Peer-reviewed, scientific method, collating findings from 35 studies.

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