30 August 2006

Biodiesel

| smokey2
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When is someone in the ACT going to start selling biodiesel.

I can get it at VP on the Hume at Holbrook and in Sydney.

I would like to be enviromentally friendly, use renewable fuels with less pollution.

I don’t even mind the 5% less milage which I get burning Canola and would be happy to drive a few extra kms to get it.

How come the ACT is so slow to adopt enviromentally friendly fuels?

Is it just following our federal government counterparts that suck up to the large oil companies?

Gelling in winter is less likely with Canola rather than animal Fat based biodiesel.

100% ie B100 biodiesel can be a problem so it is usually mixed with dino fuel the proportion depending on the temperature to meet Aust standards.

I have not had any problem with gelling even going up to Falls creek last week after a fill at Holbrook although I topped up with winter diesel at Mount Beauty.

The fuel at Holbrook is processed at Moama and is available at several VP outlets in Southern NSW.

Alot of misinformation is generated by the large fuel companies to protect their market.

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For cold temperatures you add a bit of petrol to the diesel, this is called ‘winter diesel’ and is sold at the pump that way in europe, it’s for places that are like 30 below zero centigrade and the like, the claim ‘south of wollongong’ is just ‘shut up and go away’ in PR speak.

BIODIESEL IS BETTER THAN Fossil diesel for the enviroment because it emits carbon that was taken from the atmosphere in the firstplace while the veges grew, rather than releasing new-to-the-enviroment carbon from underground, which tips the balance in favour of new climatic systems we can’t live with.

Not 100% Mr Shab – but I remembered reading about a joint Vic Police / Tax Office operation in central victoria a couple of years ago because tobacco farmers were selling seedlings to the public as a ‘cash crop’ and I believe that the issue was not so much undeclared income on the part of the tobacco farmer as avoided tax on the tobbacco … but like I said – not 100% no

As for those bastids who ride bikes and don’t pay for petrol like a functioning member of society, string ’em up.

Hey Al – are you sure you’re not allowed to grow your own tobacco? I’m sure I’ve seen plants for sale in QLD nursuries.

Exactly! But not just home brew and vege gardens – it gets worse! There’s no GST on fresh produce (well except for lobsters … you can blame the Democrats for that) – so people who eat fresh fruit and vegetables are stealing from the community by flagrantly avoiding taxes…

Applying the same principles, Home Brew and Vege gardens should also be illegal 🙂

Here’s an interesting question. How come it’s illegal to grow your own tobacco because by doing so you maliciously rip off the Government by avoiding all the taxes that they impose on the stuff – yet it seems that it’s ok to make your own motor vehicle fuel – and in doing so stealing from the community by avoiding excises, levies and taxes? Does Steve Pratt know about this? Scandalous!

I filled up our turbo diesel ute (2005 Mazda Bravo 4×4) with a biodiesel blend at the coast on Saturday morning. I drove it around all day saturday, sunday morning then back to Canberra on Sunday afternoon. This included a mixture of driving at highway speeds, in urban areas and on 4WD tracks. I didn’t notice any performance degradation and the mileage was about the same as running 100% petrolium diesel.

I have been making and using B100 – Biodiesel in Canberra for the past 12 months and the only problem during winter is that I have to mix the Biodiesel with Dinodiesel so it does not gell in the cold. I say this is a problem because I hate to put that crap in my good vehicle, I wish i lived in a warmer climate. So bottom line is there is no reason at all that you cannot use Biodiesel in Canberra.
There is nothing about either the production or the use of Biodiesel that is negitive to the Environment.

Yes, you are right Mr_Shab, we cannot run all of our current thirst for oil on biofuels with current technology. I am hoping that new and future biofuel crops like algae and also jatropha which can be grown on arid and slaty soils unsuitable for food crops could go some of the way to helping this issue.
However, with the spectre of peak oil raising its head, we need to augment our supply as much as we can. Also, the less oil we import and the more towards self sustainability we are, the better for our economic bottom line.
As for the EROI figures I quoted, they were just off the top of my head from figures I have heard other (trusted) people use. You could be right that they are not spot on and I would be happy to stand corrected on the exact figures. I think the figures are more to do with the entire life cycle of production, but I will have to research this more as the figures that you give for petrol are far better than the ones I have seen. I guess it depends where on the internet you look and whether the people who commissioned the study were oil companies or biofuel companies or hippies.
You are also right about how we do all need to rethink our dependence on oil and the car too.

I would take issue with the 0.9:1 EROI ratio for diesel you have quoted r5e. Were that the case, petroleum would never have caught on.

There seem to be a lot of figures on EROI going around. The greatest points of agreement I can find between various viewpoints seem to be that petroleum products get about 10:1-8:1 EROI; but that this is rapidly dropping as the bigger oilfields dry up, and we are forced to exploit more marginal sources.

3:1 (or 7:1 for recycled oil) seems credible for biodiesel, but we cannot meet the demands of our present market with biofuels (we’re just too thirsty). Unless of course, like some sensitive soul suggested, we give Africa (yes, all of it) over to oilseed production.

I’d say we either need a lot of work on fuel efficiency, or we need to seriously rethink our relationship with the car.

I have a friend who runs his mower on alcohol he distills himself.

He also makes his own brandy and spirits.

He bought a still at butts and brew and hasnt spent a cent on mower fuel since (apart from the oil for the two stroke mix).

I’ve seen a few comments in here re biodiesel only have “marginal” environmental gains and also getting a better return on investment with petroleum distillate than with biodiesel. I’d just like to debunk some of these.

1. The complete life cycle of biodiesel production from the growing, to the harvesting, production, distribution and finally combustion in the engine (also called “field to wheel”) is carbon neutral or carbon negative. This means that the amount of CO2 emitted by using biodiesel is less than or equal to the amount of carbon absorbed by the plants used to make it. Compared to petroleum products which simply release the carbon captured from the fossil age (carbon positive), this is a huge environmental benefit in terms of greenhouse.
2. There are significant reductions in almost all emissions when running on biodiesel (even as a small blend with dino diesel). Smoke and particulates are significantly reduced. Biodiesel is an oxygenated fuel. Although it has marginally less energy content than petroleum distillate, it makes up for these with more efficient combustion, levelling at about 95% of the efficiency when combusted in an engine. This better, oxygenated combustion also means that the bits of soot and uncombusted fuel which normally come out of the exhaust as particulates/smoke are now burned in the chamber with the biodiesel. You will find that old smokers suddenly report much less of a cloud behind them when using biodiesel.
3. Energy costs. The “cost” of refining a fuel can be measured in the amount of energy you have to put into it, as opposed to the amount you get out of it. This can be a simple equation and does not involve economic costs, which is usually the only thing that people look at. To refine petrol, or distillate from crude oil and then burn it in your engine (the field to wheel), the ratio is around 0.9 :1. I know that sounds hard to believe but it costs nearly a barrel of oil to find, extract, process etc another barrel of oil in terms of energy used. When it reaches your vehicle from the pump, you don’t really care, you just notice the power you get from it, not the power it cost to get it. The cost of ethanol is similar, as the energy put into the distillation required is quite high. For biodiesel the ratio is more like 1:3, or as high as 1:7 for biodiesel made from waste cooking oil. The reason for this is that biodiesel is made from a chemical reaction rather than distillation and it does not have to be drilled from deep in the ground.

There is a lot of propaganda a misinformation in the public domain, as well as some “scientific” studies that have been commissioned by those who’s interests are not for alternative fuels which would disagree with some of the things that pro bio fuel people say. You have to make your own mind up.

Re resources for learning how to make it, or for finding out where to buy it – http://www.biofuelsforum.com is a forum specifically for Australia. Much discussion on the above topics happens in there.

I ran ethanol blend in my Datsun 120Y (circa 1975 model) back in uni (2001-2003) as it was the cheapest. And I had no concerns about “voiding my warranty” as the media at the time proclaimed it would do. I had no ill effects. The increased octane even let me advance the timing without the old girl “pinging”… Mechanically, environmentally and economically I’m all for ethanol, especially if we can derive it from waste (ie sugar cane). The unreliable aspect seems to be the politics, oil company propaganda and misinformation. I think biodiesel will suffer the same for some time yet.

Make that ‘ingredients’…

Environmentally I believe ethanol os better than dino-juice, as it is a much simpler (chemically) brew. Also, it is made from renewable sources (plant material) that consume carbon doixide during the growth phase then release it during the fuel burning phase.

I am all for developing fuels that can be grown/manufactured in Australia from local ‘ingedients’, thus reducing our reliance on imported supply. Although we will likely pay world prices for energy, if we can make our own we should still be somewhat insulated from ‘energy crisis’ type shocks.

I also like ethanol as it can be used in existing infrastructure, and our cars can use it. Older model cars I would be more careful with, as they may not have fuel lines and other seals and stuff made from the necessary materials.

Thanks el for the good advice. Seeing you raised the LPG thing in this thread, perhaps you or others can explain something I am puzzled by. The P in LPG is petroleum, right? So why is this being touted as cheaper/greener etc (not to mention the boot space problem)?

I would avoid it for the moment and keep using the base unleaded in a 15 year old car, myself (mine’s an ’89 model, FWIW). As far as it being “greener”, that’s still very much uncertain – You use more of the “greener” fuel to get where you’re going.

Does anyone know if you can use the Ethanol fuel (or proportion of same) in an older car (we are talking 1991 make)? No one has explained this stuff. I am just using the cheapest unleaded as I don’t even know if I can use the snazzy unleaded ones that are now appearing at the servo. I would like to be ‘greener’ but don’t want to wreck my car.

Compressed Natural Gas is bloody horrible fuel for auto purposes. LPG is a much better choice, IMHO. Ethanol (without the “M” at the front, folks – Methanol is something different again) is, er, somewhat suspect re Manildra’s “donations” to the Liberal party. There’s plenty of ethanol blended fuels about these days, BP in particular seems pretty keen to push the “E10” (I think it’s called) blend.

There a number of possibilities ranging from compressed natural gas to
lignocellulose based ethanol
that are obviously ripe for careful development.

After 3 years living in Holbrook, I can vouch that it gets every bit as cold as Canberra. But the independent servo there has always been at the leading edge of fuel sustainability. They have sold methanol blended petrol for years (which you can get here at the United just north of town at Eagle Hawk – close enough for us living at Harrison).
But the Holbrook servo paid a price for its pioneering – the local community fostered an ongoing rumour mill against the company about selling bad fuel and damage to engines. I used them for every tank for 3 years and our cars never missed a beat.

One of the current affairs shows did a piece on biodiesel a little while ago. If using recycled fish and chips oil its great but mass producing it is no better than the regular stuff.

I don’t think it would do good things to my motorbike.

A lot of misinformation is obviously still going round, by the looks of these posts.

Have a look here: http://www.journeytoforever.org

PS Ive been making biodiesel at home for about a year now,. so I sort of have some claim to a little knowledge.

Hey smokey 2- where’s ‘VP’ service station?? I want to buy some of that bio-diesel (and see if its as good as mine)

cheers
richopesto

There’s a bloke in the usenet newsgroup aus.cars that’s been doing it for a while in his shed. As far as I’m aware, gelling is no more a problem with biodiesel than regular diesel. I’m talking about the used oil biodiesel. Haven’t heard much regarding “growing food crop” methods and fuel apart from the discussion of Ethanol and it’s addition to standard petrol.

i have no idea, im happy just putting petrol in mine, plus some octane booster when its required.

i miss super.

I was referring to growing the food-crop that gets refined into oil, before being refined into bio-diesel.

You need a bucket-load of fuel for farm machinery, transport and refining. That NaOH and metho don’t come from nowhere, either.

You get a much better energy return on investment with diesel than with biodiesel. That meaning that the “hidden environmental costs” of biodiesel make it not quite as clean and green as it might seem. You’re right though – it’s still streets ahead of methanol.

I applaud anyone trying to do better by the environment, but I’m yet to be convinced that biodiesel is a viable alternative.

BTW Bonfire – Can you dump plain, unrefined palm/canola oil in a diesel tank? I thought it needed to be fooled about with a bit first, or you’d do horrible things to your engine.

Smokey2 check out Adam Curry’s website http://www.curry.com and look for references to Trinity his biodiesel merc (now defunct I think) In the US (via Canada) apparently you can get a home garage Waste vege oil to Bio diesel conversion system for about US$3k. Google away. Perhaps once set up we can get JB to move the server to the location of the set up with a little dino genny.

I can see it now – “RiotACT powered by left over fish and chip oil”

I have done a fair bit of reading on it and manufacture using canola treated with metho and caustic soda appears very simple. The by product being glycerine or soap.
Cannot see much of an environmental problem there.
I am sure many of the farmers growing Canola are also using biodiesel to power their equipment.

Biodiesel has far less polution as it is a straight vegetable product with no sulphur or the other impurities dino fuel has. Particle levels may be a little higher which is a downside and can clog catalytic exhaust filters on some of the really new engines.

Main problem is converting potential food into vehicle fuel which the greens are against.
However much more simple and efficient than converting wheat or corn to alcohol to use in petrol motors like the yanks are doing.
It is better for our farmers to grow canola than wheat as the corrupt AWB then bribes third world dictators like Saddam to purchase our wheat.

Anyway I don’t want to make the stuff as I live in a flat and my neighbours will think I am operating a meth lab. I just want to be able to buy it in Canberra.

why dont you just go down to the supabarn, buy some black and gold label canola and tip it into your tank ?

the concat reported an article on palmoil in darwin a few days ago.

on bougainville under onas marijuana fuelled reign, and when the PNGDF isolated the island using their rowboats, the BRA used coconut oil to power the vehicles they had.

The environmental benefits of biodiesel are pretty marginal (or even worse than diesel, depending on the methods of production).

Unless that is, you start converting your own waste oil into usable fuel.

I would have thought the same applied to diesel ? Thats pretty thick and fairly similar – besides I would have thought that the fuel injection system on a diesel or converted Waste vege Oil (WVO) type engine would have no problem cutting your finger in half so why would slightly thicker biodiesel matter ?
Isnt sub-terranean temperatures pretty standard the right up and down the eastern seaboard? On a totally different tangent, when I was a chef we used to sell off our WVO to a guy for 5 dollars per drum (20 litres). Is there any net resources on how to make you rown WVO fuel and convert your vehicle to operate on that? I know a few people who would find it rather handy, and are friendly with som epeople in thetrade still so would have an endless supply (maybe) of dirty crisco

I heard a chap on the radio answer that question a couple of weeks ago – apparently it’s to do with the colder temperatures here – biodiesel apparently gets too thick when its cold so its not sold south of Wollongong – but then again, if you can get it in Hollbrook … who knows.

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