10 March 2012

Braidwood monster smash

| johnboy
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The ABC has the news of a major accident yesterday on the Kings Highway:

A man and his two young daughters have been killed in a car accident near Canberra during heavy rain.

Police say the 52-year-old man and his eight and 10-year-old daughters died when their car collided with another car on the Kings Highway near Braidwood on Friday afternoon.

A 43-year-old man, a 39-year-old woman and two girls aged 11 and 13 in the other car were all taken to Canberra Hospital with non-life threatening injuries.

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Sturmovik said :

I think the ACT should bare some resposibility for the upgrade of various NSW roads, but on the other hand NSW gets quite a bit of benefit from Canberrans spending money at the Coast and the Snow during the holidays.

There should be a 3-way split for funding a proper freeway to the coast:
Federal/NSW/ACT in equal shares.
Would be a massive project, and would open up employment opportunities for – just as an example – unemployed people with 5 kids who currently have to survive on “just $20,000” per year.

Watson said :

I drive the speed limit because I think it is the safe thing to do.

Well, I don’t object to your post, but this bit is wrong – you’re probably aware that the current 80 v. 90 speed limit issue on the GDE has nothing to do with safety and is apparently something to do with noise?
There is no way any posted speed limit can bear more than a very remote relationship to the safe speed for that road at a particular time of day in particular weather in a particular car driven by a particular driver.

HenryBG said :

KB1971 said :

Maybe but I dont agree when the car in front is travelling at the posted limit. All speedometer accuracy aside, if someone is following me at 100, they should be happy that I am not holding them up.

The reality is that the person who “is travelling at 100km/h” is positively terrified of bends and crests, and slows down to 80km/h for each one. This is the reason the traffic banks up behind them, and this is the reason a considerate road user does what they can within reason to help those travelling faster than them to get past them.

Personally, my car is not much good on gravel roads. If I see somebody in a car that can comfortably do a good speed on a gravel road catching up with me, I will even pull right over early to let my dust settle so they can get past quickly. It’s commonsense and its being considerate.

Back to the idiot with traffic banking up behind him – when he gets to a nice straight stretch of the road,, what does he do? He speeds up to 100km/h in order to prevent the people who have been patiently waiting behind him from getting past. This causes anger, frustration, excessive speed and unsafe overtaking maneuvers.

If somebody is right behind you – it means they are travelling faster than you. Only a complete arsehole fails to recognise the commonsense in letting them past. The same kind of arsehole who objects to motorcycles lane-filtering.

And I find it rather disturbing that there are so many people out there who assume that someone only sticks to the speed limit because they are scared of going any faster. That just confirms my suspicion that drivers who have a compulsive need to speed do so because they want to show off. And most likely feel insecure about their masculinity.

I went through a stage of speeding on my way to the coast. It’s the only place where you can do it without getting caught really, so I thought “Why not, it’s a long drive and I want to be there already”. Until I calculated how much time I actually saved doing that and my brain finally woke up and told me that those 20 minutes are really not worth risking my or anyone else’s life for. Ever since then I am the annoying person who sticks to the speed limit regardless of how many cars are behind me or how many bird brain drivers want to make wild assumptions about my driving skills.

HenryBG said :

KB1971 said :

Maybe but I dont agree when the car in front is travelling at the posted limit. All speedometer accuracy aside, if someone is following me at 100, they should be happy that I am not holding them up.

The reality is that the person who “is travelling at 100km/h” is positively terrified of bends and crests, and slows down to 80km/h for each one. This is the reason the traffic banks up behind them, and this is the reason a considerate road user does what they can within reason to help those travelling faster than them to get past them.

Personally, my car is not much good on gravel roads. If I see somebody in a car that can comfortably do a good speed on a gravel road catching up with me, I will even pull right over early to let my dust settle so they can get past quickly. It’s commonsense and its being considerate.

Back to the idiot with traffic banking up behind him – when he gets to a nice straight stretch of the road,, what does he do? He speeds up to 100km/h in order to prevent the people who have been patiently waiting behind him from getting past. This causes anger, frustration, excessive speed and unsafe overtaking maneuvers.

If somebody is right behind you – it means they are travelling faster than you. Only a complete arsehole fails to recognise the commonsense in letting them past. The same kind of arsehole who objects to motorcycles lane-filtering.

What a stupid generalisation. I drive the speed limit because I think it is the safe thing to do. I do not slow down for bends unless there is a need to. I usually go about 15kph over the limit on the yellow signs going through bends as that is what my car is usually capable of. (Unless it’s Brown Mountain, but I pull over immediately to let people overtake there)

I too get frustrated when people don’t do a constant speed. And they are the only times I will sometimes go over the speed limit – to overtake them on a straight stretch. Myself, I slow down if I see an opportunity for the car behind me to overtake. It’s amazing how often they chicken out though, which also annoys me. They feel confident enough to drive over the speed limit and tailgate, but don’t know how to overtake even if the car in front of them slows down to make it easier for them.

HenryBG said :

KB1971 said :

Maybe but I dont agree when the car in front is travelling at the posted limit. All speedometer accuracy aside, if someone is following me at 100, they should be happy that I am not holding them up.

The reality is that the person who “is travelling at 100km/h” is positively terrified of bends and crests, and slows down to 80km/h for each one. This is the reason the traffic banks up behind them, and this is the reason a considerate road user does what they can within reason to help those travelling faster than them to get past them.

Personally, my car is not much good on gravel roads. If I see somebody in a car that can comfortably do a good speed on a gravel road catching up with me, I will even pull right over early to let my dust settle so they can get past quickly. It’s commonsense and its being considerate.

Back to the idiot with traffic banking up behind him – when he gets to a nice straight stretch of the road,, what does he do? He speeds up to 100km/h in order to prevent the people who have been patiently waiting behind him from getting past. This causes anger, frustration, excessive speed and unsafe overtaking maneuvers.

If somebody is right behind you – it means they are travelling faster than you. Only a complete arsehole fails to recognise the commonsense in letting them past. The same kind of arsehole who objects to motorcycles lane-filtering.

Disturbingly, I’ve been finding myself agreeing with you quite a lot lately.

HenryBG said :

KB1971 said :

Maybe but I dont agree when the car in front is travelling at the posted limit. All speedometer accuracy aside, if someone is following me at 100, they should be happy that I am not holding them up.

The reality is that the person who “is travelling at 100km/h” is positively terrified of bends and crests, and slows down to 80km/h for each one. This is the reason the traffic banks up behind them, and this is the reason a considerate road user does what they can within reason to help those travelling faster than them to get past them.

Personally, my car is not much good on gravel roads. If I see somebody in a car that can comfortably do a good speed on a gravel road catching up with me, I will even pull right over early to let my dust settle so they can get past quickly. It’s commonsense and its being considerate.

Back to the idiot with traffic banking up behind him – when he gets to a nice straight stretch of the road,, what does he do? He speeds up to 100km/h in order to prevent the people who have been patiently waiting behind him from getting past. This causes anger, frustration, excessive speed and unsafe overtaking maneuvers.

If somebody is right behind you – it means they are travelling faster than you. Only a complete arsehole fails to recognise the commonsense in letting them past. The same kind of arsehole who objects to motorcycles lane-filtering.

Ahh yes but I am not one of those drivers, I grew up in the country driving country roads and I am very aware of how to handle a vehicle in the different conditions placed in front of me when driving.

I am really not sure what you are trying to say in your post Henry?

I certainly understand that the behavoir you describe and have experienced it but as I was discussing with Holden, it is up to me to pass safely if I am not happy with sitting behind them. While they might speed up on the straights there is usually a spot I can get past them at some stage (used to frustrate me no end in my old diesel Patrol).

What I usually find with this type of driver is they attract like minded drivers. That is other people will catch them & then sit behind them as they go fast/slow, fast/slow rather than keep a constant speed. The second, third, fourth & fiths dirivers then make it hard for someone sitting on a constant 100km/h & who wants to pass to actually pass. This is what I see causes the frustration. Sitting behind one car is easy, sitting behind a line of them for 30km & watching them not take the passing oppourtunities provided to avoid the lineup getting any longer. I see it time & time again & that is what I see as being the cause for the frustration, not the one car in front.

If I drop in on the back of a line like this I suss out the situation, if I can make my way to the front & then have a clear run I will do it. If it was like Monday where if I made it to the front & there is another line of cars in front, its not worth it as you just get caught again. Happens all the time on the Monaro Hwy in winter, you can see the cars for 5km in front, what is the piont in passing & what will a slower car in front pulling over acieve?

I have no problem with motorbikes filtering (ex rider myself) as long as they keep out of the bike lanes.

KB1971 said :

Maybe but I dont agree when the car in front is travelling at the posted limit. All speedometer accuracy aside, if someone is following me at 100, they should be happy that I am not holding them up.

The reality is that the person who “is travelling at 100km/h” is positively terrified of bends and crests, and slows down to 80km/h for each one. This is the reason the traffic banks up behind them, and this is the reason a considerate road user does what they can within reason to help those travelling faster than them to get past them.

Personally, my car is not much good on gravel roads. If I see somebody in a car that can comfortably do a good speed on a gravel road catching up with me, I will even pull right over early to let my dust settle so they can get past quickly. It’s commonsense and its being considerate.

Back to the idiot with traffic banking up behind him – when he gets to a nice straight stretch of the road,, what does he do? He speeds up to 100km/h in order to prevent the people who have been patiently waiting behind him from getting past. This causes anger, frustration, excessive speed and unsafe overtaking maneuvers.

If somebody is right behind you – it means they are travelling faster than you. Only a complete arsehole fails to recognise the commonsense in letting them past. The same kind of arsehole who objects to motorcycles lane-filtering.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

goggles13 said :

Thoroughly Smashed said :

goggles13 said :

elapsed time speed cameras would make the situation worse.

Source?

don’t need a source – just simple logic.

currently, people get frustrated due to the lack of overtaking opportunities and people travelling at, or under the speed limit.

by adding a point-to-point camera, it is more likely that people will travel under the speed limit to avoid getting caught speeding. therefore increasing frustration levels.

“It’s true because I believe it is” doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

Thanks for the laugh though. “Don’t need a source”. Hahaha!

no worries.

farnarkler said :

There are more than enough overtaking lanes and long stretches on the Kings Hwy to give the speed demons loads of chances to overtake.

As for upgrading the Hwy, put point to point cameras in, one at Braidwood, the other at Nelligen. The NSW gov’t would make enough money to fund a fair amount of improvements.

This would only work if they put a new camera in at each speed change. They have 100, 90 and 70k limits along this stretch of road, so in theory, someone could travel above the speed limit for a vast majority of the road, but slightly under for the 100k part, and their average speed won’t show that they were speeding.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back12:24 pm 13 Mar 12

Holden Caulfield said :

KB1971 said :

But really, it all comes down to attitude, the other person sees it has their right to not speed or sit under the limit, the next guy wants to do 3km over the limit which ensures he will catch other cars. He has to live with that & take the pill & pass safely. Its not the car in front’s fault that the guy behind is doing something different.

Isnt that what a free society is about? Choices?

Yep.

If there’s only a few cars behind I don’t reckon it’s a major issue, but when a queue of 7, 8 or more starts to build up then it’s probably time to start considering moving over.

You’re right, in a perfect world everyone would just be patient and enjoy the drive and overtake when they can. But…

I tend to agree. Many years ago I used to have an old wagon that wouldn’t cruise comfortably at more than about 95km/h, so I’d occasionally pull over (or slow right down in the overtaking lanes) to let others pass safely. If I was loaded and really taking it easy I might pull over 3 or 4 times during the trip.

If you’re doing the speed limit, then it’s obviously not a requirement to pull over and let others pass. But if you notice a queue of cars forming up behind you, sometimes it can be a good thing to do. It’s not a hard and fast principle, but something to make your own judgment call on.

Anything that reduces angst and stupidity on the road is a good thing. Sometimes we have to accept good instead of perfect.

Holden Caulfield said :

KB1971 said :

But really, it all comes down to attitude, the other person sees it has their right to not speed or sit under the limit, the next guy wants to do 3km over the limit which ensures he will catch other cars. He has to live with that & take the pill & pass safely. Its not the car in front’s fault that the guy behind is doing something different.

Isnt that what a free society is about? Choices?

Yep.

If there’s only a few cars behind I don’t reckon it’s a major issue, but when a queue of 7, 8 or more starts to build up then it’s probably time to start considering moving over.

You’re right, in a perfect world everyone would just be patient and enjoy the drive and overtake when they can. But…

Yah… I know.

Holden Caulfield12:12 pm 13 Mar 12

KB1971 said :

But really, it all comes down to attitude, the other person sees it has their right to not speed or sit under the limit, the next guy wants to do 3km over the limit which ensures he will catch other cars. He has to live with that & take the pill & pass safely. Its not the car in front’s fault that the guy behind is doing something different.

Isnt that what a free society is about? Choices?

Yep.

If there’s only a few cars behind I don’t reckon it’s a major issue, but when a queue of 7, 8 or more starts to build up then it’s probably time to start considering moving over.

You’re right, in a perfect world everyone would just be patient and enjoy the drive and overtake when they can. But…

Holden Caulfield said :

KB1971 said :

milkman said :

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or each other part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

Because it should not be banking up at 100km/h *facepalm*……..

Yes, that is quite true. But it does.

And, yes, other motorists should show more patience.

However, the time to play vigilante is not when you have a queue of frustrated motorists behind you. And, from what Watson is saying, she is frustrated when there’s a queue behind her too, if she’s cursing them. In itself that is directing more of her attention to where she’s been and not on where she is going.

Take a minute to pull aside and everyone benefits.

Experience tells me the more people get frustrated and fed up the closer they are to doing something stupid. Whether that’s the person at the head of the queue or someone further back.

Maybe but I dont agree when the car in front is travelling at the posted limit. All speedometer accuracy aside, if someone is following me at 100, they should be happy that I am not holding them up. Under that, then yes common sense prevails & I have pulled aside when towing (I used to have a non turbo diesel Nissan Patrol 😛 ) & was a regular thing for me but if I could do 100 with the van on I would do it. If I pulled over every time there was a handfull of cars behind me I would never get anywhere.

But really, between 80 & 100, I would not expect anyone to pull over for me. It is up to me to pass safely if I want to travel faster than the car in front.

One thing a lot of people are fogetting is not all vehicles are created equal. Yep a SV6 Commodore sedan can cruise along comfortably at 100 on a 80km/h advised corner but then change that to the SV6 wagon with 5 people , the boot loaded to the hilt & a box trailer on & that changes things immensely. The same corner has the potential to send it into a tank slapper if it has a dip in it.

But really, it all comes down to attitude, the other person sees it has their right to not speed or sit under the limit, the next guy wants to do 3km over the limit which ensures he will catch other cars. He has to live with that & take the pill & pass safely. Its not the car in front’s fault that the guy behind is doing something different.

Isnt that what a free society is about? Choices?

Thoroughly Smashed11:53 am 13 Mar 12

goggles13 said :

Thoroughly Smashed said :

goggles13 said :

elapsed time speed cameras would make the situation worse.

Source?

don’t need a source – just simple logic.

currently, people get frustrated due to the lack of overtaking opportunities and people travelling at, or under the speed limit.

by adding a point-to-point camera, it is more likely that people will travel under the speed limit to avoid getting caught speeding. therefore increasing frustration levels.

“It’s true because I believe it is” doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.

Thanks for the laugh though. “Don’t need a source”. Hahaha!

Holden Caulfield11:15 am 13 Mar 12

KB1971 said :

milkman said :

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or each other part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

Because it should not be banking up at 100km/h *facepalm*……..

Yes, that is quite true. But it does.

And, yes, other motorists should show more patience.

However, the time to play vigilante is not when you have a queue of frustrated motorists behind you. And, from what Watson is saying, she is frustrated when there’s a queue behind her too, if she’s cursing them. In itself that is directing more of her attention to where she’s been and not on where she is going.

Take a minute to pull aside and everyone benefits.

Experience tells me the more people get frustrated and fed up the closer they are to doing something stupid. Whether that’s the person at the head of the queue or someone further back.

milkman said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

milkman said :

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or eachother part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

Because this is exactly the kind of attitude that causes frustration that results in people taking chances. How do you know the speedo is accurate? How do you know the speedos of the cars following are accurate.

Until we can get past this ridiculous idea that driving is some sort of competition, and that we are all the Lone Ranger Of The Road, road rage and frustration related accidents will continue.

Seriously, get some perspective, and show some common courtesy.

Um, did you read what you posted, you are spruiking common sense but are not displaying it.

Perspective is, the speed limit is 100km/h. So your speedo is accurate to 2km/h & the guy in front is 5km/h & you catch him. it is is your responsibility to keep your distance & pass safely (and patiently) if you really have to regardless of what is happening. The whole trip is less than 200km, if the car in front is doing 90, so be it, its not that slow (* facepalm to you too).

I drove down on Friday, cruised along at 100, when I caught another car I just waited until it was safe & then passed (moslty in overtaking lanes). Heading down the Clyde there was a truck, this was good as we were doing 30 & I could enjoy the veiw & the smells of the bush with the windows down. I had people up my butt even though I had 10 cars, a large caravan & a semi trailer in front & could do nothing about it. This all cleared out on the bottom with overtaking lanes.

Coming home we went through Araluen, enjoyed the beutiful drive, had a great counter meal at the pub (far cheaper than the baker at Braidwood that charges more on public holidays) & would have headed home though majors Creek & Captains Flat had we not broken a spring on my mates camper trailer. Throughly enjoyable drive home until we hit the Kings. People still had to pass even though when I crested a rise there were cars for the next 2km, absolutely no point in passing. Then we all banked up in Bungendore & then again in Queanbeyan. The just got there 30 second quicker.

I have seen it for years on the Monaro Hwy in the ski season, Sydneyites busting their nuts to pass everything in sight when they have dual carrageway less than 100km down the road. Madness.

shadow boxer said :

People have been falling off the side of that road and ending up in paddocks for the past 40 years. It wont stop until it is a proper divided road with a tarred erge and adequate overtaking opportunities.

Either side of Braidwood appears the best place to start.

Either side of braidwood are actually two of the better parts of the coast drive. It always amazes me, the number of flowers and memorials left along the side of the straight road on the eastern side of the town. Maybe youre unaware, but the stretch between Queanbeyan and Bungendore has been either reconstructed or is under construction over the past few years.

If anyone thinks the Kings Highway is a bad road now, youre obviously too young or new to the region to remember what the road was like in the past.

Holden Caulfield11:01 am 13 Mar 12

Chop71 said :

Barton highway is worse.

Huh?

I guess I can’t really comment on the Kings Hwy because I’ve only driven it a handful of times in my 20+ years of driving. However, I know the Barton very well as I used to drive it daily from Yass in the early 90s.

Then, there were no dramas with the road at all. Mostly, the surface was fine and the sight lines and general vision were quite good, save for a handful of corners. The trees have grown a lot in 15 years or so and some of the old sight lines have gone, but there are more overtaking lanes and the road surface is still very good.

There would be a lot more commuter traffic today than when I was using the road, but I still can’t see how anyone could describe it as a bad road.

milkman said :

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or eachother part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

Because it should not be banking up at 100km/h *facepalm*……..

dtc said :

I drove back from the coast today and spent a bit of time checking out whether and how the road was dangerous. (trying to get this thread back on track)

My views…

Well said, a shining beacon of common sense among the usual riotact garbage that gets trotted out for stories like these. We’ve even had, in this and other posts, people claiming they like the role trees play in “filtering” bad drivers – an unforgivably crude, smug and unthinking thing to say, under the circumstances. I’d like to see those people explain to the mother of those two girls why they deserved to be “filtered”.

Barton highway is worse.

IrishPete said :

Auntyem said :

We always go Brown Mountain way – it’s a pleasure to drive.

Not at the moment – it’s closed, possibly for weeks. Might partly explain why a Jindabyne family was using the King’s Highway.

IP

Not really, Mt Darragh is open from Bombala to Pambula & only adds about 1/2 an hour to the trip to Pambula from here (using the dirt road from Bibbenluke to Cathcart). There is then the back road across to Nimmitabel which cuts out Cooma & it a really nice drive with bugger all traffic.

I would say he was heading either to the Bay or not far from it.

shadow boxer8:45 am 13 Mar 12

goggles13 said :

Thoroughly Smashed said :

goggles13 said :

elapsed time speed cameras would make the situation worse.

Source?

don’t need a source – just simple logic.

currently, people get frustrated due to the lack of overtaking opportunities and people travelling at, or under the speed limit.

by adding a point-to-point camera, it is more likely that people will travel under the speed limit to avoid getting caught speeding. therefore increasing frustration levels.

No doubt, i’m sure logic wont get in the way of a good knee jerk reaction here though.

People have been falling off the side of that road and ending up in paddocks for the past 40 years. It wont stop until it is a proper divided road with a tarred erge and adequate overtaking opportunities.

Either side of Braidwood appears the best place to start.

Innovation said :

Simmo said :

Innovation said :

.. what 20km/h even for the whole of a two hour trip costs what….. about twenty minutes?

I agree that patience is important. But let’s put it in perspective; multiply that twenty minutes by the twenty cars stuck behind them that each have say two people in them. That’s forty people x twenty minutes= 800 man minutes. That is equivalent to stopping one man for 800 minutes.

So you for one are happy with the current road provided people pull over and give you your perceived right to go faster? I assume too that you don’t want any improvements to the road because of the extra man hours that would be involved in paying for the improvements and building them?

I for one am happy with the current road without any provisos.
Your second assumption is correct, your first, that I have a right to go faster, is ridiculous. I’m simply saying that I would pull over if I had a line of traffic banked up behind me.

Holden Caulfield said :

Watson said :

Simmo said :

If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing. If you can’t do that then you lack common courtesy or reasonable judgement on being able to pull over in a safe spot. Just admit it to yourself right now and get over it.

Waiting patiently and at a safe distance behind other cars – regardless of their speed – until there is a spot to safely overtake demonstrates common courtesy and reasonable judgement. If you cannot do that, maybe you should let your partner drive.

And never the twain shall meet.

Actually I agree. So the Twain shall meet. I was talking about if I was in the car in front. Watson quotes me and then talks about if you are the driver behind, falsely assuming that is what I would do. And then has the audacity to question why we are having this conversation. Aaah, because you quoted me. The English comprehension and irrational arguments on this forum is unbelievable.

dtc said :

Another thing useful would be more ways to access the coast, taking the pressure off the Kings Highway. Cut through from just past Nerriga to, say, just north of Ulladulla (its ‘only’ about 20km from the existing Nerriga road to the Princes Highway at about Lake Conjola); . Expensive though..

First of all, shut up about the Nerriga Road!

And, the reason MR92 was delayed so long (it was funded to be upgraded when they put in the gas pipeline, late ’90s) was because it went between two major national parks (Moreton and Budawang). It skirts them very carefully, and so the road can’t cut south from Nerriga as it would cut through the park and that is never going to happen (and can’t, if you’ve ever been in there).

Luckily that very excellent road has a significant entrance exam for Canberra drivers, either Oallen Ford Rd (dirt, twisty) or the road from Braidwood which has got some very scathing comments recently in local press, it needs a grade apparently. that said, larger numbers of them are braving these imperfect roads, especially the braidwood-nerriga bit.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

goggles13 said :

elapsed time speed cameras would make the situation worse.

Source?

don’t need a source – just simple logic.

currently, people get frustrated due to the lack of overtaking opportunities and people travelling at, or under the speed limit.

by adding a point-to-point camera, it is more likely that people will travel under the speed limit to avoid getting caught speeding. therefore increasing frustration levels.

I drove back from the coast today and spent a bit of time checking out whether and how the road was dangerous. (trying to get this thread back on track)

My views (apologies for the prolixity):

1. there is barely any straight road between BB and Braidwood. Up the Clyde that is just the way its going to be, but from the top of the Clyde to Braidwood its just constant curves. Some of these are ‘S’ curves – curve right, curve left, curve right again, end up going in exactly the same direction as you would have had there just been a straight road. There may be historial reasons for this, but no way would a new road be built curving all over the place.

2. no safety margin – the shoulder of the roads are very small to non existent and the trees often start very close to the road. If you need to veer because someone else does something stupid, you have hardly any ability to do it.

3. some bad driving.

4. the road itself was in pretty good condition. A few potholes but pretty good for a country road, markings generally in good state.

5. as usual, foggy at the top of the Clyde!

What this means is that this is a dangerous road, not due to construction but design. One mistake, a moment on inattention and you are gone, there are so many bends and twists and trees, you run off the road and hit something. And if you are coming the other way at the wrong time, you are also gone, there is no protection or safety margin or anything you can do (other than run into a tree yourself). Its not like the road to Sydney where you can vague out a bit and its no issue.

I know people can blame drivers, but those of us older can remember that Lake George used to be a high risk area, despite a good and pretty straight road. After the highway was built ie after the road was improved, but despite the drivers presumably being the same, the accident rate dropped dramatically.

Yes it is the drivers fault, but roads should be built to minimise the consequences of driver error – which is GOING to occur no matter what you do, who you train, how you train. People will drive this road without the skills to do it properly – in fact, its probably a road you need a good 3 or 4 years of driving ability first before you should tackle it.

So widening or straightening (preferable but more expensive) the roads would be very useful. An overtaking lane is sorely needed – there is a long time from the top of the Clyde to the first place to overtake, and with the windy road there are very very few safe places to overtake. Its also the place that bad (incompetent) drivers will go slowly, because its a difficult drive and they will slow down (and those people who just cannot bear to go at 80 instead of 90 will do their usual idiocy) (and then stop at Braidwood bakery for a 30 minute coffee, obviously in such a hurry to get home!).

By the way, ‘dual carriageway’ is not two lanes each way, it means the lanes are separated by something down the middle (a median strip). The new Nerriga to Nowra road has a lot of dual carriageway separated by wire fencing. It requires a wider road, to allow for the median strip/wire and so forth, and has to be properly thought out (otherwise people cutting corners, with no traffic the other way, hit the wire). It will significantly improve safety, but its not just a matter of putting up the wire fence, you need to widen the road as well. (comnpare the Nerriga to Nowra road with the Clyde to Braidwood road to see the difference between a modern well designed road and an old patched up route)

Another thing useful would be more ways to access the coast, taking the pressure off the Kings Highway. Cut through from just past Nerriga to, say, just north of Ulladulla (its ‘only’ about 20km from the existing Nerriga road to the Princes Highway at about Lake Conjola); and have another way to the far South coast (not sure of what can be done here). Expensive though.

I have no doubt the Clyde – Braidwood Highway is a dangerous road, because you know how people will drive and, knowing that, its obvious the road is simply not designed to deal with that bad driving.

In fact, compare the number of deaths on this section to the accidents between Braidwood and Bungendore, where the road is much much straighter, there is much better visibility and wider roads with plenty of overtaking lanes. I may be wrong, but I can’t recall many serious accidents along this stretch – despite exactly the same drivers.

The NSW government hardly has any money for anything. At the best of times, they never had enough money.

The Kings Highway is not worth worrying about for NSW politicians. It matters not. Heck, there isn’t any ‘real’ gain in spending what scarce amount of funds there are on such a insignificant area.

Why would the NSW government spend money on a road which ‘connects Canberra to the South Coast’. Surely there is very little gain in spending money on this road, as far as the NSW government is concerned. No votes in it. Hasn’t it also been traditionally ‘palmed off’ as a federal matter by previous NSW governments?

It’s sad really. Because at the end of the day, I believe it’s about politics. Politics, in that no NSW government could give a rats arse about it, nor have they. They wont do anything about it unless it’s Sydney. Sydney, Central Coast (*cough*) or the Hunter. Even then, they do SFA!

Perhaps the NSW government (yes, them) needs to sell off more public assets and increase the number of coal seem gas mining permits……So that Sydney can get the new rail line out to the North-west ……..:p

Simmo said :

Innovation said :

.. what 20km/h even for the whole of a two hour trip costs what….. about twenty minutes?

I agree that patience is important. But let’s put it in perspective; multiply that twenty minutes by the twenty cars stuck behind them that each have say two people in them. That’s forty people x twenty minutes= 800 man minutes. That is equivalent to stopping one man for 800 minutes.

So you for one are happy with the current road provided people pull over and give you your perceived right to go faster? I assume too that you don’t want any improvements to the road because of the extra man hours that would be involved in paying for the improvements and building them?

Holden Caulfield6:27 pm 12 Mar 12

threepaws said :

I think that sometimes the speed limit can be that close to the ragged edge. Think about school zones for instance – the difference in braking distance between 40k and 60k can literally mean the difference between life and death for a pedestrian.

A seemingly minor difference between 100k or 110k might mean the difference between being able to safely negotiate a particular bend without braking.

Driving in Tasmania is a refreshing experience. While travelling with some colleagues the passenger in the back commented that I must have been speeding as we were flying past other cars on the highway. I was in fact doing the 100 speed limit, other drivers were just taking the drive at their own pace, anywhere from 80k upward. And guess what? No attitude.

I wish people would calm the hell down and stop treating the speed limit like a challenge. I personally don’t want myself or my family to become a statistic because some hero thinks he can drive at whatever speed he likes. Some of the attitudes and comments on this thread actually frighten me – I can’t believe I share the road with some of you people (not directed at you HC)

No probs. You make some valid points.

Re those people calling for dual carriageway – what on earth do you expect would happen when all the hoons posting here had to suddenly slow down and descend the Clyde single file after 100ks driving at 110 kph? Far better to have a two-way road in good condition (as it is now) that fits with the context. Word is that the floods will put paid to King’s Highway upgrades for ages – priority is flood-wrecked roads in southern NSW. So let’s live with it (safely) and hope Milkman isn’t on the same road on our next trip to the coast.

Holden Caulfield said :

GardeningGirl said :

Simmo said :

I agree with milkman. If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing.

It’s the “irrespective of what speed you are doing” part I don’t get? If you are doing the safe and legal speed and people are banked up behind you then either they are happy to keep driving in a group all doing the safe and legal speed or they want to get past and, what? Either go faster than the safe and legal speed? Or just get in front like some people seem to have a strange need to do, and then you bank up behind them? I suppose sometimes there’s people who are overall doing the speed limit but struggling up hills and I can understand wanting to be given a chance to get past them (which is why some uphills have overtaking lanes). The discrepancy in people’s speedos? Perhaps sometimes, but I’m not sure about that, who’s to say the fastest of you is the one with the correct speedo? The line behind could be one marginally different speedo, one hoon, one person who’s keeping up with surrounding traffic without checking the speedo, one person who doesn’t want to get past but doesn’t have a good sense of what’s a safe distance between cars at that speed. If you’re aware the needle on your dash is a bit dodgy then yes, it would be considerate to let a whole line past WHEN you can safely do so. (I think if speedo’s vary that often and that much then something ought to be done about that as a separate issue.) But I think the idea that you should get out of the way “irrespective of what speed you are doing” SOUNDS bad, it has a hint of might is right about it, like even if you’re confident your speedo is okay you should get out of the way of the crowd regardless of their reasons for appearing to want to get past? Bottom line IMO is patience and courtesy, if you think you might be holding people up for a real reason (no power uphill, unreliable speedo) then let them past if and when you can do it SAFELY and if you want to get around a slow vehicle or slow driver then go around if and when you can do it SAFELY and if you can’t do it SAFELY then just relax and don’t act like an impatient uncourteous idiot.

Think about it, the speed limit cannot be that close to the ragged edge, can it?

I think that sometimes the speed limit can be that close to the ragged edge. Think about school zones for instance – the difference in braking distance between 40k and 60k can literally mean the difference between life and death for a pedestrian.

A seemingly minor difference between 100k or 110k might mean the difference between being able to safely negotiate a particular bend without braking.

Driving in Tasmania is a refreshing experience. While travelling with some colleagues the passenger in the back commented that I must have been speeding as we were flying past other cars on the highway. I was in fact doing the 100 speed limit, other drivers were just taking the drive at their own pace, anywhere from 80k upward. And guess what? No attitude.

I wish people would calm the hell down and stop treating the speed limit like a challenge. I personally don’t want myself or my family to become a statistic because some hero thinks he can drive at whatever speed he likes. Some of the attitudes and comments on this thread actually frighten me – I can’t believe I share the road with some of you people (not directed at you HC)

Growling Ferret4:34 pm 12 Mar 12

The loss of five lives is terrible, but the road is not to blame. Poor skills, inattentiveness, lack of awareness cause accidents.

On the top of the mountain, there was an Echo down the side of the road against a tree. There was a 3 car nose to tail accident at the bottom of the Mountain. There was a Falcon wagon in the trees on the wrong side of the road, and a Commodore ute 5k out of Braidwood that had rolled into a paddock and was abandoned.

I saw the highway patrol booking a car, but a motorcyclist overtook over the double white lines at warp speed. No wonder they are temporary Australians.

However, the most dangerous thing I saw was the v6 Vitara OC – who sat at between 55 and 65kmh from Nelligen for the ten kilometres I followed them in overcast but otherwise perfect driving conditions. Barely able to stay in their lane, with kilometres of traffic backing up, their lack of ability to negotiate the road would have contributed to a sense the frustration of dozens of cars behind them. When caravans catch you going up hills, you have a problem. So to the old bat at the wheel, catch the bus next time.

Most people are happy to cruise along at the limit. Being stuck 25 to 35kmh below it helps nobody and creates situations where risks may be taken…

DavidL said :

One spot where extra facilities might make a difference is the top of the Clyde – having reached the top it can still be some time before you can overtake slow drivers or others can overtake you, so 1. fix this part of the road and/or 2. set up a service station with cafe facilities to encourage drivers to stop and rest there. Given the distance to Braidwood (and the fact that the service stations there close early even in the summer) it has to be economically viable. Even the cheap option – a major parking area with standard toilet facilities would encourage drivers to take a break or allow others to pass.

Seems like a good idea to me. Might be expensive to put into practice – clearing and levelling and so on – but perhaps it would be worth it.

Holden Caulfield3:17 pm 12 Mar 12

GardeningGirl said :

Simmo said :

I agree with milkman. If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing.

It’s the “irrespective of what speed you are doing” part I don’t get? If you are doing the safe and legal speed and people are banked up behind you then either they are happy to keep driving in a group all doing the safe and legal speed or they want to get past and, what? Either go faster than the safe and legal speed? Or just get in front like some people seem to have a strange need to do, and then you bank up behind them? I suppose sometimes there’s people who are overall doing the speed limit but struggling up hills and I can understand wanting to be given a chance to get past them (which is why some uphills have overtaking lanes). The discrepancy in people’s speedos? Perhaps sometimes, but I’m not sure about that, who’s to say the fastest of you is the one with the correct speedo? The line behind could be one marginally different speedo, one hoon, one person who’s keeping up with surrounding traffic without checking the speedo, one person who doesn’t want to get past but doesn’t have a good sense of what’s a safe distance between cars at that speed. If you’re aware the needle on your dash is a bit dodgy then yes, it would be considerate to let a whole line past WHEN you can safely do so. (I think if speedo’s vary that often and that much then something ought to be done about that as a separate issue.) But I think the idea that you should get out of the way “irrespective of what speed you are doing” SOUNDS bad, it has a hint of might is right about it, like even if you’re confident your speedo is okay you should get out of the way of the crowd regardless of their reasons for appearing to want to get past? Bottom line IMO is patience and courtesy, if you think you might be holding people up for a real reason (no power uphill, unreliable speedo) then let them past if and when you can do it SAFELY and if you want to get around a slow vehicle or slow driver then go around if and when you can do it SAFELY and if you can’t do it SAFELY then just relax and don’t act like an impatient uncourteous idiot.

Attitude works both ways. A self-righteous I’m-gonna-teach-them attitude is potentially equally as culpable as a move-out-of-my-way-arsehole attitude. Both have the potential to inflame and result in people doing things they may later regret.

Or worse.

The speed limit, in theory, is the speed which is deemed to be the safest for all drivers in a variety of weather conditions. It doesn’t mean if someone drives at 110km/h that it is inherently unsafe. Illegal, yes, but not always unsafe.

Think about it, the speed limit cannot be that close to the ragged edge, can it?

So, just as the tail of motorists behind a slower car need to chill and relax, be patient and wait for a safe opportunity to pass the motorist causing the the tailback should have the self-awareness to understand that their actions could be causing frustration behind.

After all, moving aside, when appropriate, only takes a few seconds right.

As I said, it works both ways. It’s true the time argument can equally apply to the queue of traffic behind.

But if someone else chooses to speed what good is feeling superior because you’re within the law if your actions are increasing the potential for someone behind you to do something daft?

I’m in no way defending illegal road activities, just suggesting that we all need to be more aware of our own individual actions and how they affect other road users. If they can be adjusted for the betterment of all then we should swallow our pride and adjust our behaviour.

The results of accidents rarely discriminate between who is right and who is wrong.

GardeningGirl2:54 pm 12 Mar 12

DavidL said :

The police don’t have the resources to cover all the areas where people do silly things. However, as speed cameras seem to be inordinately expensive why not cheaper cameras that transmit to central police stations at Braidwood and Bateman’s Bay and show illegal overtaking, tail-gating, etc at points where this is known to happen more than elsewhere. Far easier to prove and the police can wait and pick them up when they arrive and, if necessary, confiscate their cars – I can tell you it can be hell to get back to Canberra if your car is not available and that might discourage a few of these drivers.

Yes, I think I like that idea.

The recent point to point speed cameras on Hindmarsh Drive in Canberra are an example of one useful control. I think it was over 800 speed fines per week before implementation and 150/160? afterwards.

The police don’t have the resources to cover all the areas where people do silly things. However, as speed cameras seem to be inordinately expensive why not cheaper cameras that transmit to central police stations at Braidwood and Bateman’s Bay and show illegal overtaking, tail-gating, etc at points where this is known to happen more than elsewhere. Far easier to prove and the police can wait and pick them up when they arrive and, if necessary, confiscate their cars – I can tell you it can be hell to get back to Canberra if your car is not available and that might discourage a few of these drivers.

One spot where extra facilities might make a difference is the top of the Clyde – having reached the top it can still be some time before you can overtake slow drivers or others can overtake you, so 1. fix this part of the road and/or 2. set up a service station with cafe facilities to encourage drivers to stop and rest there. Given the distance to Braidwood (and the fact that the service stations there close early even in the summer) it has to be economically viable. Even the cheap option – a major parking area with standard toilet facilities would encourage drivers to take a break or allow others to pass.

Thoroughly Smashed2:30 pm 12 Mar 12

goggles13 said :

elapsed time speed cameras would make the situation worse.

Source?

GardeningGirl2:16 pm 12 Mar 12

Holden Caulfield said :

Watson said :

Simmo said :

If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing. If you can’t do that then you lack common courtesy or reasonable judgement on being able to pull over in a safe spot. Just admit it to yourself right now and get over it.

Waiting patiently and at a safe distance behind other cars – regardless of their speed – until there is a spot to safely overtake demonstrates common courtesy and reasonable judgement. If you cannot do that, maybe you should let your partner drive.

And never the twain shall meet.

Attitude.

Get that right, throw in some common sense, and almost all of the problems being discussed here will be solved.

+1
Attitude, common sense, courtesy.

Deref said :

Deckard said :

One of the problems with this is that some drivers doing 90 speed up to 100+ when there’s an overtaking lane only to slow back down to 90 when it goes back to single lane.

In my experience, people who do 90 (or 80 just as commonly) then speed up to 110+ where there’s an overtaking lane also drive at 90 (or 80) when the limit drops to 60.

It’s a weird thing.

Are they aware of what they are doing? Has anyone ever tried to ask?
I haven’t noticed often that they still go 90 in 60 zones. Although, there was one old guy once who did 50 in a 60 zone, still 50 through the school zone, turned right at the traffic lights from the straight ahead only left lane cutting in front of other cars, and then continued doing 50 up the 80 dual carriageway. Right past the speed camera. Which of course missed all the stupid stuff he had done in the preceeding few kilometres including speeding in a school zone at 3 in the afternoon. Which is why I’d like to see less revenue raisers and more patrol cars.

There are more than enough overtaking lanes and long stretches on the Kings Hwy to give the speed demons loads of chances to overtake.

As for upgrading the Hwy, put point to point cameras in, one at Braidwood, the other at Nelligen. The NSW gov’t would make enough money to fund a fair amount of improvements.

dungfungus said :

More police presence and elapsed time speed cameras would help

more police presence would help. elapsed time speed cameras would make the situation worse.

Deckard said :

One of the problems with this is that some drivers doing 90 speed up to 100+ when there’s an overtaking lane only to slow back down to 90 when it goes back to single lane.

In my experience, people who do 90 (or 80 just as commonly) then speed up to 110+ where there’s an overtaking lane also drive at 90 (or 80) when the limit drops to 60.

It’s a weird thing.

GardeningGirl12:57 pm 12 Mar 12

Deckard said :

One of the problems with this is that some drivers doing 90 speed up to 100+ when there’s an overtaking lane only to slow back down to 90 when it goes back to single lane. Not so sure they do it to annoy, more probable that they feel safer that there’s an extra lane between them and the oncoming traffic. This frustrates those who want to get past, but don’t want to risk a speeding fine doing so.

Yes!!!!! Somebody should do some research on that, WHAT is with those drivers?

GardeningGirl12:54 pm 12 Mar 12

Simmo said :

I agree with milkman. If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing.

It’s the “irrespective of what speed you are doing” part I don’t get? If you are doing the safe and legal speed and people are banked up behind you then either they are happy to keep driving in a group all doing the safe and legal speed or they want to get past and, what? Either go faster than the safe and legal speed? Or just get in front like some people seem to have a strange need to do, and then you bank up behind them? I suppose sometimes there’s people who are overall doing the speed limit but struggling up hills and I can understand wanting to be given a chance to get past them (which is why some uphills have overtaking lanes). The discrepancy in people’s speedos? Perhaps sometimes, but I’m not sure about that, who’s to say the fastest of you is the one with the correct speedo? The line behind could be one marginally different speedo, one hoon, one person who’s keeping up with surrounding traffic without checking the speedo, one person who doesn’t want to get past but doesn’t have a good sense of what’s a safe distance between cars at that speed. If you’re aware the needle on your dash is a bit dodgy then yes, it would be considerate to let a whole line past WHEN you can safely do so. (I think if speedo’s vary that often and that much then something ought to be done about that as a separate issue.) But I think the idea that you should get out of the way “irrespective of what speed you are doing” SOUNDS bad, it has a hint of might is right about it, like even if you’re confident your speedo is okay you should get out of the way of the crowd regardless of their reasons for appearing to want to get past? Bottom line IMO is patience and courtesy, if you think you might be holding people up for a real reason (no power uphill, unreliable speedo) then let them past if and when you can do it SAFELY and if you want to get around a slow vehicle or slow driver then go around if and when you can do it SAFELY and if you can’t do it SAFELY then just relax and don’t act like an impatient uncourteous idiot.

Holden Caulfield12:16 pm 12 Mar 12

Watson said :

Simmo said :

If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing. If you can’t do that then you lack common courtesy or reasonable judgement on being able to pull over in a safe spot. Just admit it to yourself right now and get over it.

Waiting patiently and at a safe distance behind other cars – regardless of their speed – until there is a spot to safely overtake demonstrates common courtesy and reasonable judgement. If you cannot do that, maybe you should let your partner drive.

And never the twain shall meet.

Attitude.

Get that right, throw in some common sense, and almost all of the problems being discussed here will be solved.

I think making people pull over for you is a bit of a stretch. If people want to do 90 then let them go 90 and wait for a safe place to overtake.

One of the problems with this is that some drivers doing 90 speed up to 100+ when there’s an overtaking lane only to slow back down to 90 when it goes back to single lane. Not so sure they do it to annoy, more probable that they feel safer that there’s an extra lane between them and the oncoming traffic. This frustrates those who want to get past, but don’t want to risk a speeding fine doing so.

And this is not a ‘canberra driver’ thing. It happens all over the country.

Simmo said :

Innovation said :

.. what 20km/h even for the whole of a two hour trip costs what….. about twenty minutes?

I agree that patience is important. But let’s put it in perspective; multiply that twenty minutes by the twenty cars stuck behind them that each have say two people in them. That’s forty people x twenty minutes= 800 man minutes. That is equivalent to stopping one man for 800 minutes.

And that is my problem how? Why are we even having this conversation? I thought this was about road safety? How is some idiots’ lost time relevant to this?

Simmo said :

If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing. If you can’t do that then you lack common courtesy or reasonable judgement on being able to pull over in a safe spot. Just admit it to yourself right now and get over it.

Waiting patiently and at a safe distance behind other cars – regardless of their speed – until there is a spot to safely overtake demonstrates common courtesy and reasonable judgement. If you cannot do that, maybe you should let your partner drive.

More police presence and elapsed time speed cameras would help. I can’t recall ever seeing a marked highway patrol car between Bungendore and Batemans Bay yet I regularly see them on the highway between Cooma and Bega.

Innovation said :

.. what 20km/h even for the whole of a two hour trip costs what….. about twenty minutes?

I agree that patience is important. But let’s put it in perspective; multiply that twenty minutes by the twenty cars stuck behind them that each have say two people in them. That’s forty people x twenty minutes= 800 man minutes. That is equivalent to stopping one man for 800 minutes.

The road is fine. You could make it the best road in the world and there would still be crashes. It gets a lot of traffic and some-one would still fall asleep/be texting/on the phone/distracted by kids/dodge kangaroos etc. I agree with milkman. If there is a line of traffic banked up behind you (and I’m not advocating tailgating) common courtesy would dictate that you pull over and let them pass irrespective of what speed you are doing. If you can’t do that then you lack common courtesy or reasonable judgement on being able to pull over in a safe spot. Just admit it to yourself right now and get over it.

I’ve only skimmed this thread but I agree that the road is not that bad for the posted speed limit. Until people realise that 1) driving is a privilege not a right, 2) the posted speed limit is a maximum (not a minimum) in ideal conditions with good driving ability and a good condition car and 3) all road users generally have a right to do the speed at or below that limit that they feel comfortable doing.

If someone pulls over to let you past that’s a bonus. If they don’t, perhaps they don’t feel it’s safe to do so, there would never be an opportune time for them to get back in to the traffic or they don’t see why they should delay getting to their destination any more.

I haven’t done the math, but at the moment, being slowed by… what 20km/h even for the whole of a two hour trip costs what….. about twenty minutes? Stop focussing on the time that you are due at your destination, leave earlier and find something interesting to do on the way (I usually put on an audio book that I’ve borrowed from the library) and you’ll enjoy your trip more. If it’s a good book you might even be disappointed if you get to the end too soon.

If the road ever gets done up then great. The coast will benefit from increased tourism and Canberrrans etc can get to the beach more often. In the meantime, put more speed cameras in and police on the road, put the revenue from fines into a trust fund towards the new road and the various Government’s should be able to pay for it in no time.

The road is really not that bad. As has been said, it’s the people on it. I think part of the problem is that a lot of Canberra drivers don’t do much driving on country roads, which not only means they’re not used to those particular hazards but also that they assume it’s safer because there’s less traffic (and fewer cops) and drive more carelessly than they would in the city. I don’t think a dual carriageway is the solution, but speed cameras and more cops would help.

When I say I sit on 100kph, I do often drive a few kilometers – roughly 3 – above. I regularly do those speedo checks and it is only very slightly off. My 3 kph above would definitely compensate for that. So either all the other cars’ speedos are way off or they all (want to) drive above the speed limit. Either option is dangerous and so they should either get their speedos or their heads checked.

As I said, I will slow down when I see an opportunity for the cars behind me to safely overtake. And you know what? I’m pretty sure most of them don’t even notice. Most of the drivers trying to overtake others like it is some extreme sport are as aware of their surroundings as a stoned wombat. Which is the main reason why I’d rather not have them anywhere near me when I’m driving.

EvanJames said :

goggles13 said :

time to start lobbying the state and federal governments about doing something serious with this road.

what, like closing it? or are you advocating an idiot-proof dual carriageway?

That’s not going to happen, and as we so often see, the supposedly idiot-proof Hume sees plenty of road deaths. More cops would help, as tailgating lunatics (like Milkman) tend to simmer down when they spot police.

We use the nerriga rd. anyone bleating about how “bad” the Kings Hwy is should keep right away from that. Especially the dirt bit on Oallen Ford Rd. A deathtrap! Dangerous Road! It’s not even a single carriageway, and the whole surface is dirt and rocks.

Not reading news stories about all the deaths on it though. I wonder why?

never said close it, and given that Brown Mountain is closed for the foreseeable future, the choices to get to the coast are rather limited. even then, the Snowy Mountains Highway north of Bombala has been seriously affected by the recent rain, and you have to be so careful.

I was trying to be constructive in my comments, and wanting to avoid focusing on the continuing backwards and forwards in this thread that doesn’t help anyone.

I drove around 850km on Saturday from Canberra to the coast and to Wollongong and back. I did a few silly things myself, but nothing major. In contrast, I saw a cop car in thick fog around Bredbo with no lights on, three people pull out in front of me from side roads when I was doing 100kmh + and had an idiot tailgating me up Macquarie Pass. These things probably would have still happened on a dual carriageway.

but a higher quality road would lessen the driver aggravation that is apparent on the Kings Highway. the same applies on the joke that is the Barton Highway.

EvanJames said :

goggles13 said :

time to start lobbying the state and federal governments about doing something serious with this road.

what, like closing it? or are you advocating an idiot-proof dual carriageway?

That’s not going to happen, and as we so often see, the supposedly idiot-proof Hume sees plenty of road deaths. More cops would help, as tailgating lunatics (like Milkman) tend to simmer down when they spot police.

We use the nerriga rd. anyone bleating about how “bad” the Kings Hwy is should keep right away from that. Especially the dirt bit on Oallen Ford Rd. A deathtrap! Dangerous Road! It’s not even a single carriageway, and the whole surface is dirt and rocks.

Not reading news stories about all the deaths on it though. I wonder why?

I was going to agree with you until I read your little attack on me. I don’t tailgate, and don’t cruise above the speed limit. I also don’t agree with hiding behind the law as an excuse for using my brain (which several on this site seem to think is completely acceptable). Perhaps you could do some more reading and thinking and less spouting of crap.

Jethro said :

milkman said :

Dickhead.

So… I drive at the legally posted speed limit. I refuse to allow someone tailgating me to either:
a) pressure me into speeding OR
b) pull over when it’s unsafe so that they may pass me and drive along the road at a speed that is illegal

This makes me a dickhead.

I’m sorry….

But if I’m driving to the coast and I have my wife and my 3 kids in the car and I’m driving at the speed limit (ie. the maximum allowed speed on the road) and someone is tailgating me (ie. using a 1.5 tonne chunk of metal to threaten and harass me in order to make me change my behaviour so I can allow them to break the law) I am a dickhead for refusing to break the law or put myself in a dangerous situation so that I can accommodate their dickheadishness? Wow you have some messed up reasoning.

To quote you:

“This level of pig-headed, self-centredness is what causes accidents”

The only self-centred pighead on the road is the person who is bullying law-abiding people on the road to either break the law or pull over in an unsafe situation.

“Where have I said that people who overtake dangerously or tailgate are in the right? That’s right, I haven’t. I’ve said that if you are holding up traffic you should let it pass safely, because it makes the situation safer for everyone.”

How is someone obeying the law by driving at the maximum posted speed holding up anyone? The only people being held up are people who wish to drive at a speed deemed illegal.

The fact that 5 people have died on this road in the past 3 days suggests it is a road that we should actually take care on. But to you it would seem that arriving at Bateman’s Bay 5 minutes early is somehow more important that taking care of the lives of the other people who you share the road with.

And, again, I’m not oblivious to the other people on the road. I am a calm, confident and aware driver. But I’m not going to break the road rules in order to facilitate your speeding, nor am I going to pull off the highway and put my family in danger so that you can continue on your journey at an illegal speed.

The only people who make the road unsafe are those who want to bully other drivers so that they can drive illegally.

Ypu can pretend these are ‘my words not your’ all you want, but the fact is, you are arguing that people who obey the laws of the road should give way and make way for those who refuse to obey these laws.

This, sir, makes you a dickhead.

And, no, those aren’t ‘my words, not yours’.

Ypour entire premise is that those who sit at the speed limit are to blame fr traffic problems because they don’t consider people who want to go faster. The only people who go faster than people sitting on the speed limit are speeding, breaking the law, most liely tailgating, and so on.

Not my words.. this is the only possible conclusion one can reach when reading your attack on people who follow the road laws.

To quote you: “I’ve said that if you are holding up traffic you should let it pass safely, because it makes the situation safer for everyone.”

If I am driving at the maximum legal speed and I am holding up traffic, then, by definition, that traffic must be intending to speed and break the law. 9 times out of 10 these people decide that the best way to deal with being ‘held up’ is to tailgate. The only people breaking the law and causing traffic problems here are those who decide to bully others into breaking traffic laws.

Jethro, you are basing your entire argument on the premise that I am advocating getting out of the way for drivers behaving illegally. I’m not. Go back and re-read if need be.

Your speedo is not perfect. Neither are those of other vehicles. If a line of traffic forms behind you, it’s probably you doing less than the limit, or (and let’s face it because it’s very real) the prevailing traffic is traveling a few km/h over the limit.

My rant was directly primarily at people who feel like tough guys because they get to slow others down. I think it’s an extremely poor attitude to take. The road is there to be shared – it’s not a race.

I happen to drive this road regularly, and see some really bad behaviour, much of it from blue and white plated vehicles. I see many ‘close calls’ that would be avoided if people were a bit more sensible.

I’ll admit I get irritated when people use the law as an excuse not to use common sense (although this is not directly solely at you). Tell you what – let’s both stop calling each other names and debate the actual issue at hand here. Deal?

My first suggestion is to get more marked police onto this road, and get them booking people who drive dangerously (especially overtaking dangerously). My experience (and that’s all it is), is that people tend to behave more sensibly when the boys and girls in blue are out and about.

haras said :

Milkman are you really trying to lay the blame with drivers who are driving at the speed limit, or to the conditions, for putting the lives of impatient speeding morons at risk!!!!!!! Now I heard everything….you are the one who should be handing in your licence.

No, and you know I’m not. Stop making stuff up.

goggles13 said :

time to start lobbying the state and federal governments about doing something serious with this road.

what, like closing it? or are you advocating an idiot-proof dual carriageway? That’s not going to happen, and as we so often see, the supposedly idiot-proof Hume sees plenty of road deaths. More cops would help, as tailgating lunatics (like Milkman) tend to simmer down when they spot police.

We use the nerriga rd. anyone bleating about how “bad” the Kings Hwy is should keep right away from that. Especially the dirt bit on Oallen Ford Rd. A deathtrap! Dangerous Road! It’s not even a single carriageway, and the whole surface is dirt and rocks.

Not reading news stories about all the deaths on it though. I wonder why?

milkman, I think you are going down the wrong path in your posts.

From what I have read you have stated, that if you are doing the speed limit and people are stacking up behind you, you should pull over and let the people behind you pass, as this will stop them from becoming impatient and thus causing an accident.

On that stretch of road it doesn’t matter if you are doing the speed limit, 10 or 20 above, no matter how fast you are going you will always get someone who wants to go faster or a motorbike whose rider is clearly Casey Stoner with the speed they hit.

What is to blame out there? A number of things;

The road needs to be upgraded, but what road coming into Canberra is decent? I think that is more a problem with the ACT Government having no money, and NSW Government not wanting to help Canberran’s leave Canberra.

People become impatient and want to over take everyone to be in front.

People don’t drive the speed limit. (It is exactly that a limit, not a must.)

People towing caravans along that road don’t pull over… EVER.

The road is not properly Policed, but what road in the world is?

At the end of the day the problem is people, people built the road, people wont upgrade the road, people drive on the road like dicks, people drive on the road like their steering wheels are connected to their brakes, people drive caravans, people speed, people mix up their ambitions and capabilities, people are morons….

It goes on.

goggles13 said :

not surprised that this thread has degenerated…………I think we need to be offering constructive suggestions to help reduce the likelihood of future tragic events on this road, rather than attacking each other.

time to start lobbying the state and federal governments about doing something serious with this road.

It’s not the road that’s the problem. If every person using the road drove on it with the right attitude 9 out of 10 crashes wouldn’t occur. It is a completely constructive suggestion to put out the idea that perhaps people should drive on the road in a safer manner.

milkman said :

Dickhead.

So… I drive at the legally posted speed limit. I refuse to allow someone tailgating me to either:
a) pressure me into speeding OR
b) pull over when it’s unsafe so that they may pass me and drive along the road at a speed that is illegal

This makes me a dickhead.

I’m sorry….

But if I’m driving to the coast and I have my wife and my 3 kids in the car and I’m driving at the speed limit (ie. the maximum allowed speed on the road) and someone is tailgating me (ie. using a 1.5 tonne chunk of metal to threaten and harass me in order to make me change my behaviour so I can allow them to break the law) I am a dickhead for refusing to break the law or put myself in a dangerous situation so that I can accommodate their dickheadishness? Wow you have some messed up reasoning.

To quote you:

“This level of pig-headed, self-centredness is what causes accidents”

The only self-centred pighead on the road is the person who is bullying law-abiding people on the road to either break the law or pull over in an unsafe situation.

“Where have I said that people who overtake dangerously or tailgate are in the right? That’s right, I haven’t. I’ve said that if you are holding up traffic you should let it pass safely, because it makes the situation safer for everyone.”

How is someone obeying the law by driving at the maximum posted speed holding up anyone? The only people being held up are people who wish to drive at a speed deemed illegal.

The fact that 5 people have died on this road in the past 3 days suggests it is a road that we should actually take care on. But to you it would seem that arriving at Bateman’s Bay 5 minutes early is somehow more important that taking care of the lives of the other people who you share the road with.

And, again, I’m not oblivious to the other people on the road. I am a calm, confident and aware driver. But I’m not going to break the road rules in order to facilitate your speeding, nor am I going to pull off the highway and put my family in danger so that you can continue on your journey at an illegal speed.

The only people who make the road unsafe are those who want to bully other drivers so that they can drive illegally.

Ypu can pretend these are ‘my words not your’ all you want, but the fact is, you are arguing that people who obey the laws of the road should give way and make way for those who refuse to obey these laws.

This, sir, makes you a dickhead.

And, no, those aren’t ‘my words, not yours’.

Ypour entire premise is that those who sit at the speed limit are to blame fr traffic problems because they don’t consider people who want to go faster. The only people who go faster than people sitting on the speed limit are speeding, breaking the law, most liely tailgating, and so on.

Not my words.. this is the only possible conclusion one can reach when reading your attack on people who follow the road laws.

To quote you: “I’ve said that if you are holding up traffic you should let it pass safely, because it makes the situation safer for everyone.”

If I am driving at the maximum legal speed and I am holding up traffic, then, by definition, that traffic must be intending to speed and break the law. 9 times out of 10 these people decide that the best way to deal with being ‘held up’ is to tailgate. The only people breaking the law and causing traffic problems here are those who decide to bully others into breaking traffic laws.

Milkman…you defy belief no one could be as stupid as you pertain to be.

not surprised that this thread has degenerated…………I think we need to be offering constructive suggestions to help reduce the likelihood of future tragic events on this road, rather than attacking each other.

time to start lobbying the state and federal governments about doing something serious with this road.

Jethro said :

So what’s your point?

Tailgaters who want to speed but are unable to because others are obeying the road rules are in the right?

Your words, not mine.

Jethro said :

People who sit at the speed limit cause accidents by holding up those who wish to break the law?

Your words, not mine.

Jethro said :

People who do dangerous overtakes are not to blame because people who follow the road rules have made them angry?

Your words, not mine.

Jethro said :

Seriously.

You’re a dickhead.

So despite not supporting or condoning any illegal activity, but suggesting people take more care to manage the situation around them, I’m the one with the problem? Please show where I have endorsed ANY of your wild accusations above.

Jethro said :

I’m well aware of what is going on around me. But I’m not going to facilitate some dickhead who wants to break the law so he can get to his caravan park 3 minute earlier.

The only person to blame when a dangerous situation occurs and it involves a douchebag who is overtaking in a dangerous place because he couldn’t deal with the person in front of him driving at the legally posted speed is the douchebag doing the illegal and dangerous overtaking maneuver.

The person who ‘held him up’ by doing the speed limit has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Again.

You’re a dickhead.

The dickhead is you. Driving along in your own little world, taking perverse pleasure in being a traffic-cop-wannabe. That, specifically, makes you a dickhead.

Where have I said that people who overtake dangerously or tailgate are in the right? That’s right, I haven’t. I’ve said that if you are holding up traffic you should let it pass safely, because it makes the situation safer for everyone. (Perhaps you could learn to read, or at least stop making ridiculous assumptions.) You entire argument is based on the assumption that people following are wanting to do the wrong thing. You have also assumed that because your speedo says something that it must be gospel truth, which is also wrong.

I’ll say it again. This level of pig-headed, self-centredness is what causes accidents. The road is there to be shared, and you attitude is like that of a whinging 5 year old.

Get a life and wake up – there is more going on than you staring at your speedo, and if you ever looked around you’d probably see that. My post previously was about the sorry-ass lack of common sense and courtesy being shown on our roads. And clearly you are a major culprit.

Dickhead.

TheDancingDjinn7:49 pm 11 Mar 12

Jethro said :

milkman said :

The reason I’ve had a rant is that I’m sick of hearing “I’m doing the speed limit, so everyone else can go to hell, I won’t help them where I can because it’s my right to be a spiteful, whiney bitch”. If we all toook a bit more care, and watched what others were doing, driving would be a vastly easier and safer experience for everyone involved. But that’s not the Canberra way, is it…?

So what’s your point?

Tailgaters who want to speed but are unable to because others are obeying the road rules are in the right?

People who sit at the speed limit cause accidents by holding up those who wish to break the law?

People who do dangerous overtakes are not to blame because people who follow the road rules have made them angry?

Seriously.

You’re a dickhead.

I’m well aware of what is going on around me. But I’m not going to facilitate some dickhead who wants to break the law so he can get to his caravan park 3 minute earlier.

The only person to blame when a dangerous situation occurs and it involves a douchebag who is overtaking in a dangerous place because he couldn’t deal with the person in front of him driving at the legally posted speed is the douchebag doing the illegal and dangerous overtaking maneuver.

The person who ‘held him up’ by doing the speed limit has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Again.

You’re a dickhead.

+ 1 trillion

milkman said :

The reason I’ve had a rant is that I’m sick of hearing “I’m doing the speed limit, so everyone else can go to hell, I won’t help them where I can because it’s my right to be a spiteful, whiney bitch”. If we all toook a bit more care, and watched what others were doing, driving would be a vastly easier and safer experience for everyone involved. But that’s not the Canberra way, is it…?

So what’s your point?

Tailgaters who want to speed but are unable to because others are obeying the road rules are in the right?

People who sit at the speed limit cause accidents by holding up those who wish to break the law?

People who do dangerous overtakes are not to blame because people who follow the road rules have made them angry?

Seriously.

You’re a dickhead.

I’m well aware of what is going on around me. But I’m not going to facilitate some dickhead who wants to break the law so he can get to his caravan park 3 minute earlier.

The only person to blame when a dangerous situation occurs and it involves a douchebag who is overtaking in a dangerous place because he couldn’t deal with the person in front of him driving at the legally posted speed is the douchebag doing the illegal and dangerous overtaking maneuver.

The person who ‘held him up’ by doing the speed limit has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Again.

You’re a dickhead.

Milkman are you really trying to lay the blame with drivers who are driving at the speed limit, or to the conditions, for putting the lives of impatient speeding morons at risk!!!!!!! Now I heard everything….you are the one who should be handing in your licence.

GardeningGirl7:02 pm 11 Mar 12

I saw the Seven news story, foreign students overtaking on a bend across double lines and apparently overcorrected. So it sounded like there were a few factors, skill level, disregard for road markings or perhaps unfamiliarity with what they mean, attitude (regardless of what road signs or markings there are common sense should be used when overtaking), perhaps other things too. I feel really sad for the families and I don’t like sounding critical about people who have lost their lives, but since the news report this time has already given some important details I think it’s an opportunity to discuss what can be learned from it.

EvanJames said :

c_c said :

And if there’s a line of slower cars up ahead, how about just slowing down and dealing with it rather than going crazy trying to overtake them all?

therein lies the problem. an endless queue of cars is not going to help anyone because most people cannot drive at a constant speed, so the poor person that is #100 in the queue would be doing 10kmh.

the road need serious upgrading, as does the attitude of drivers who don’t leave space for people behind them to overtak.

c_c said :

Ten News had footage of the scenes and comments from Police.

The vehicle was overtaking along a stretch where there’s double unbroken lines. The stretch was signposted as 90 and was straight with only a gentle curve at the start coming into the stretch where they left the road.
Sounds as though they were overtaking where it was illegal and unsafe to and had to avoid a car coming in the opposite direction, hence they found a tree that was well away from the road itself.

So for those who have commented about people being impatient and overtaking where it’s unsafe, provisionally, today unfortunately provides proof.

This “tree” crash is referring to a second accident this morning, not Friday’s accident that killed a man and his two children and is the subject of most of the discussion here. (In case not clear to the readers!)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-11/another-fatality-on-kings-highway-blackspot/3882242

Watson said :

milkman said :

Jethro said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

What he said, except I don’t want any tailgating douche eating my arse with a spoon.

The point is that letting others pass is about risk minimisation, rather than being law.

As has been pointed out by others, minimising the risk that some moron loses his cool and decides to overtake dangerously because they cannot possible wait a second longer to overtake this nervous nelly going 100kph, is NOT my responsibility.

And I do actually pull over when I can safely do so. I do not enjoy having cars behind me at all and will also slow right down when there is an overtaking lane to let cars pass. But you probably make damn sure you go faster than everyone else so no one ever even gets close to the back of your car. Otherwise you would know that the places where you can safely pull off the road when you have some hoon glued to your arse are far and few between there.

I’m glad you also pull over. I have done the same. But thanks for the false assumption about speeding.

The reason I’ve had a rant is that I’m sick of hearing “I’m doing the speed limit, so everyone else can go to hell, I won’t help them where I can because it’s my right to be a spiteful, whiney bitch”. If we all toook a bit more care, and watched what others were doing, driving would be a vastly easier and safer experience for everyone involved. But that’s not the Canberra way, is it…?

milkman said :

Jethro said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

What he said, except I don’t want any tailgating douche eating my arse with a spoon.

The point is that letting others pass is about risk minimisation, rather than being law.

As has been pointed out by others, minimising the risk that some moron loses his cool and decides to overtake dangerously because they cannot possible wait a second longer to overtake this nervous nelly going 100kph, is NOT my responsibility.

And I do actually pull over when I can safely do so. I do not enjoy having cars behind me at all and will also slow right down when there is an overtaking lane to let cars pass. But you probably make damn sure you go faster than everyone else so no one ever even gets close to the back of your car. Otherwise you would know that the places where you can safely pull off the road when you have some hoon glued to your arse are far and few between there.

milkman said :

If you can’t identify a place to safely pull over, and safely complete the task, then please destroy your licence.

You have studiously ignored the information that this particular incident was in driving, blinding rain.

Jethro said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

What he said, except I don’t want any tailgating douche eating my arse with a spoon.

The point is that letting others pass is about risk minimisation, rather than being law.

TheDancingDjinn said :

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

What he said, except I don’t want any tailgating douche eating my arse with a spoon.

I-filed said :

milkman said :

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

The obvious answer to your “obvious question is: you don’t pull over because the drivers behind you can take a chill pill and wait until it is safe to overtake. Pulling over to let people pass can actually put a driver in a dangerous situation – pulling back out into the King’s Highway during the long weekend rush could pose a danger all its own – particularly in the heavy rain that was going on on Friday on that part of the highwqy.

If you can’t identify a place to safely pull over, and safely complete the task, then please destroy your licence.

screaming banshee said :

milkman said :

Because this is exactly the kind of attitude that causes frustration that results in people taking chances. How do you know the speedo is accurate? How do you know the speedos of the cars following are accurate.

Until all the idiots can get past their ridiculous need to get to the coast in the shortest possible time, tailgating someone who by choice or otherwise is doing the speed LIMIT or just below it until they see a chance to overtake.

Why should a law abiding presumably safe motorist travelling at a reasonable speed be made to pull over periodically so all the whackjobs can tear past.

Seriously, get some perspective, and show some common courtesy.

Well, lucky we have you on the road to show others the error of their ways!

You’re absolutely right – your need to drive at the speed that suits you and never pull over is the most important thing. Other drivers be damned.

Ten News had footage of the scenes and comments from Police.

The vehicle was overtaking along a stretch where there’s double unbroken lines. The stretch was signposted as 90 and was straight with only a gentle curve at the start coming into the stretch where they left the road.
Sounds as though they were overtaking where it was illegal and unsafe to and had to avoid a car coming in the opposite direction, hence they found a tree that was well away from the road itself.

So for those who have commented about people being impatient and overtaking where it’s unsafe, provisionally, today unfortunately provides proof.

damien haas said :

The volume of traffic this road carries warrants dual carriage way at least out to Braidwood. Longer sections of dual lanes, on certain parts, and much better designed corners would also help.

Also armco on more corners with trees ready to grab you. But you would need to work out how to make them not spring the car back into on coming traffic.

I don’t know why the police don’t develop a smart app for iphones and androids. Most smartphones these days have front and rear cameras, and GPS. When the “citizenry” see someone being a c***, either behind them or in front, all they’d have to do is start the app, and mount the phone on a flexi windscreen mount (similar to the GPS ones). It then records video of the incident and then automatically uploads the video with GPS positioning for the police to review. [If set to both data and wifi.] – I’m sure Telstra and other carriers would come on board and allow free data uploads. The dangerous driving c*** can then be apprehended maybe even within 10 minutes of the incident. The video used in court to convict. Weed these pricks out, and well have a much lower road toll. Also, if these pricks think every second car might be using such an app and recording their behavior they’d think twice.

milkman said :

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

The obvious answer to your “obvious question is: you don’t pull over because the drivers behind you can take a chill pill and wait until it is safe to overtake. Pulling over to let people pass can actually put a driver in a dangerous situation – pulling back out into the King’s Highway during the long weekend rush could pose a danger all its own – particularly in the heavy rain that was going on on Friday on that part of the highwqy.

Perhaps it needs to be spelt out on speed limit signs: 100kph in fine weather. Slow to 80 in heavy rain. And the overtaking lines perhaps could be coded with “wet weather overtaking” constraints – if overtaking is going to be affected by poorer visibility, being unlikely to be able to emergency brake or take evasive action safely if some murderous fool appears on the wrong side of the road coming the other way.

Sadly, a “better road” won’t necessarily take care of fatalities; look at that Towrang intersection just past Goulburn – dual highway, clearly marked … several fatalities in recent years.

milkman said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

milkman said :

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or eachother part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

Because this is exactly the kind of attitude that causes frustration that results in people taking chances. How do you know the speedo is accurate? How do you know the speedos of the cars following are accurate.

Until we can get past this ridiculous idea that driving is some sort of competition, and that we are all the Lone Ranger Of The Road, road rage and frustration related accidents will continue.

Seriously, get some perspective, and show some common courtesy.

Driving at the speed limit is exactly the kind of attitude that causes problems on the roads? That’s some very strange logic.

Speedos are not always accurate, but they’re a lot better than a blind guess. If huge numbers of cars are building up behind you then I agree it’s best to pull over and let them pass, but in many places on that road it’s not possible to do so safely. You can’t be responsible for other people’s decisions, and if someone gets frustrated and overtakes you dangerously the onus for that is on them.

screaming banshee2:43 pm 11 Mar 12

milkman said :

Because this is exactly the kind of attitude that causes frustration that results in people taking chances. How do you know the speedo is accurate? How do you know the speedos of the cars following are accurate.

Until all the idiots can get past their ridiculous need to get to the coast in the shortest possible time, tailgating someone who by choice or otherwise is doing the speed LIMIT or just below it until they see a chance to overtake.

Why should a law abiding presumably safe motorist travelling at a reasonable speed be made to pull over periodically so all the whackjobs can tear past.

Seriously, get some perspective, and show some common courtesy.

To clarify about the 100km/h reference, I did mean if a driver by virtue of their skill or lack thereof is unable to safely drive a car at 100km/h on a public road. Not that they are limited by driving a heavy vehicle or towing something.

Very common to see someone in a ordinary sedan obviously struggling with driving at high speed. They’ll apply the breaks often and randomly, they’ll break hard approaching corners, they’ll stay well below the limit on straight stretches.
Then again the same advice applies to those cowboys who have no trouble driving at 100 but again don’t have the skill to, hence some end up off the road.

c_c said :

If you can’t drive at 100km/h, don’t use the road. Too many infirm people driving well below the limit (on straight stretches even) causing traffic the build up.

If you can’t make it around an on camber corner without crossing the unbroken line into oncoming traffic, don’t use it.

And if you think it’s safe to overtake near a blind corner doing well over 100 on the wrong side of the road, seriously don’t drive it.

Before anyone flames me I am not commenting about this specific case just the post quoted…

Your comments are just plain stupid. People should be driving to the conditions not the speed limit as you have inferred. If driving to the conditions slows others down then so be it. Very important in all conditions, more so in heavy rain or poor visibility

GardeningGirl2:15 pm 11 Mar 12

Watson said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

apparently there has been another smash in the same spot this morning ?? more dead apparently..

Yep, two dead. Could only find it on Nine news. No details apart from that the car crashed into a tree at 10am this morning.

Two dead and one seriously injured airlifted to hospital according to the ABC just now. I hope the injured person will be okay.
How awful for the emergency services at Braidwood to have to deal with another incident so soon.

My main impression of driving the road is of idiots overtaking in ridiculous locations (there are straight stretches with usually good visibility and there are of course overtaking lanes but some people just don’t wait for a safe opportunity). There are also slow vehicles that cause stress, you know the ones, they potter along under speed until they reach the overtaking lane and then they speed up making it difficult for anyone to use the overtaking lane to get past. Sometimes they even decide that they need to get past someone else so they get in the overtaking lane and achingly slowly potter past the other vehicle, hogging the overtaking lane for themselves when a whole row of cars should have had time to get past. There are really slow vehicles that don’t pull over to let people past, but people should also realise the really slow vehicle might not have a safe opportunity to pull over somewhere just at the time when you come up behind him or he might have already just pulled over but he doesn’t want to be pulling over all the time because like you he too wants to be making progress to his destination.
So a lot of it is attitude, patience, manners.
But it’s not a good road. It looked on the news report like the recent weather hasn’t done it any good either. It’s a really important road not just for holidaying Canberrans but for tourism and the regional economy and for people working in Canberra and choosing to live somewhere more affordable/rural and for all the people living and working along it. It’s only going to get busier so the ACT and NSW WILL have to figure out what to do about it.

TheDancingDjinn said :

milkman said :

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or eachother part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

Because this is exactly the kind of attitude that causes frustration that results in people taking chances. How do you know the speedo is accurate? How do you know the speedos of the cars following are accurate.

Until we can get past this ridiculous idea that driving is some sort of competition, and that we are all the Lone Ranger Of The Road, road rage and frustration related accidents will continue.

Seriously, get some perspective, and show some common courtesy.

TheDancingDjinn12:58 pm 11 Mar 12

milkman said :

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or eachother part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

Why should he if he is travelling at the speed limit? – i would understand if it were someone moving way slower than the limit – but if your driving at 100, and the limit is 100 then those people behind you can grab a spoon and eat your ass 🙂

Watson said :

TheDancingDjinn said :

apparently there has been another smash in the same spot this morning ?? more dead apparently..

Yep, two dead. Could only find it on Nine news. No details apart from that the car crashed into a tree at 10am this morning.

Terrible news indeed.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8433242/five-death-in-three-days-on-same-stretch-of-road

TheDancingDjinn said :

apparently there has been another smash in the same spot this morning ?? more dead apparently..

Yep, two dead. Could only find it on Nine news. No details apart from that the car crashed into a tree at 10am this morning.

The volume of traffic this road carries warrants dual carriage way at least out to Braidwood. Longer sections of dual lanes, on certain parts, and much better designed corners would also help.

Watson said :

I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or eachother part of the driving test.

So if traffic is banking up behind you, the most obvious question is why the hell don’t you pull off periodically and let them pass?

TheDancingDjinn12:03 pm 11 Mar 12

apparently there has been another smash in the same spot this morning ?? more dead apparently..

c_c said :

It’s terrible and without knowing the facts which are under investigation, I wouldn’t want to speak specifically to this case. Generally though the road has a bad name but 9/10 times it’s the drivers who create the hazard. Road improvements would go a long way to making it safe, i.e. cope with bad driving, as would these tips:

If you can’t drive at 100km/h, don’t use the road. Too many infirm people driving well below the limit (on straight stretches even) causing traffic the build up.

If you can’t make it around an on camber corner without crossing the unbroken line into oncoming traffic, don’t use it.

And if you think it’s safe to overtake near a blind corner doing well over 100 on the wrong side of the road, seriously don’t drive it.

I occasionally get stuck behind slow vehicles on that road, but the vast majority of them are old utes or cars towing caravans – ie. it is the vehicles that limit their speed, not the drivers. I drive bang on 100kph there and traffic banks up behind me. I tell them all to get effed (my poor rear view mirror always cops it) and don’t get tempted to speed up. I know people who feel really pressured to speed in those situations though. I think they should make sticking to the speed limit with 10 cars behind you unable to overtake and possibly tailgating you and/or eachother part of the driving test.

And I agree with lots of the others. I don’t see why some think the road itself is dangerous. Sure it would be better if it were dual carriage all the way. But it’s a bloody long road and who is going to pay for it? All because some idiots don’t understand the principle of driving on a single carriage road with some bends in it.

I doubt it was that busy on the road last night though, so in relation to this accident it’s a mute point. The driver lost control or couldn’t see the line because of the rain. I fail to see what the road itself has to do with it. It would be a good prompt to pull over in heavy rain and just sit it out if you can, until visibility improves.

There was another massive smash into a tree in the 90s in the Braidwood area near the Mayfield road We got there soon after wasn’t good. Was Chinese tourists or students from memory appeared the driver fell asleep or some thing didnt do the tree much harm but no one survived. The road can be a bit of a nightmare when its wet especially in winter when you get low light conditions.

Anyway, we don’t know the condition of the road, or even speeding, was at fault in this crash. It could have been

mechanical failure (something broke suddenly, or a tyre blew-out)
mechanical defects (e.g. low tread on tyres, worn suspension or steering)
not driving to conditions (too fast for the rain)
distraction – mobile phone, children
actions of another vehicle not involved (possibly with ACT plates!)
driver fatigue

Obviously when a car hits a tree at 5km/h no-one usually dies, but travelling by car will always be a balance between making reasonable progress and safety.

IP

Auntyem said :

We always go Brown Mountain way – it’s a pleasure to drive.

Not at the moment – it’s closed, possibly for weeks. Might partly explain why a Jindabyne family was using the King’s Highway.

IP

Another vote for there being nothing wrong with the road. There are many, many NSW roads that are much worse.

The reason for accidents is people screwing up. Of course it’s sad when a tragic accident occurs, but blaming the road isn’t getting at the root cause of the problem.

shauno said :

Could have built a good road with that silly $16 billion school hall fund and $900 handouts for tvs etc.

Except that, if you’ve been into a school recently, you’ll know they NEED billions spent on them. The government ALWAYS has “other money” to fix this road, but NSW always insists on “going halvsies” on the remaining funding AFAIK…

This is a terrible tragedy – my heartfelt condolences to all those involved.

As for the road?
NSW govt – you want a swanky new upgraded road so Canberrans can enjoy the beach, you fund it.
ACT govt – it’s your road, you fix it.
Stalemate.

We always go Brown Mountain way – it’s a pleasure to drive.

I’m going to agree with those who are saying it isn’t the road that’s the problem but the people on it.

There’s nothing wrong with the road. It gets pretty congested in peak periods like over Christmas, but in terms of safety, it’s the absolute dickheads who drive on it that make it unsafe. As a few others have mentioned, it is rare to go for a trip to the coast without having at least one or two “Holy Crap! Did you just see what that guy did?” moments.

Obviously this may not apply to this specific crash. But in general, it is the drivers on the road that worry me, not the road itself.

Could have built a good road with that silly $16 billion school hall fund and $900 handouts for tvs etc.

screaming banshee said :

HenryBG said :

We can’t afford good roads because we need a Human Rights Commissioner, public art that looks like rubbish, and a 5-star accomodation centre for criminal scum.

What has what the ACT can and cannot afford got to do with the quality of roads in NSW. Or do you like so many Canberrans feel they own the road to the coast?

I think the ACT should bare some resposibility for the upgrade of various NSW roads, but on the other hand NSW gets quite a bit of benefit from Canberrans spending money at the Coast and the Snow during the holidays.

screaming banshee12:31 am 11 Mar 12

HenryBG said :

We can’t afford good roads because we need a Human Rights Commissioner, public art that looks like rubbish, and a 5-star accomodation centre for criminal scum.

What has what the ACT can and cannot afford got to do with the quality of roads in NSW. Or do you like so many Canberrans feel they own the road to the coast?

damien haas said :

The road is a disgrace.

It needs to be upgraded as a priority. Severe pressure should be applied to local members at federal and state level.

This ‘accident’ is a preventable occurrence by using modern road engineering.

We can’t afford good roads because we need a Human Rights Commissioner, public art that looks like rubbish, and a 5-star accomodation centre for criminal scum.

c_c said :

It’s terrible and without knowing the facts which are under investigation, I wouldn’t want to speak specifically to this case. Generally though the road has a bad name but 9/10 times it’s the drivers who create the hazard.

Whenever there’s a crash, everyone blames the road and demands billions of dollars of upgrades.

there is nothing wrong with the road, the problem is with the attitude of those using it. Ask the locals, they make rude remarks about the blue and white plates driven by lunatics.

I note the people killed didn’t have blue and white plates, and we don’t yet know what happened, but rather than paying billions of dollars and seeing endless roadworks for decades, how about people start thinking about driving to their abilities? And if there’s a line of slower cars up ahead, how about just slowing down and dealing with it rather than going crazy trying to overtake them all?

grunge_hippy10:02 pm 10 Mar 12

considering I know tools who boast about making it to the coast “in 1 hour, fully fanging it” its any wonder there arent more deaths.

I’m not saying this man was doing that, but its a scary bit of road past Braidwood, and with douchebags who treat it like their own personal race track its not good. not safe.

Im going to go against the grain here, but theres nothing particulary wrong with the road, its the people that travel on it thats the problem. For a country NSW road its pretty damn good.

Ive driven that road dozens and dozens or times, and it has plenty of overtaking lanes for its length, its wide enough for a two lane road, has wide enough shoulders etc. Its not a main trucking route so you dont have that problem, unlike the Hume many years ago, or the Barton still today.

Biggest problem is people constantly in a rush to either get home, or to the coast. The amount of close calls ive had from people unnecessarily overtaking at the wrong times is crazy. Why are people overtaking 500m from an overtaking lane? And often these people are towing caravans or boats FFS. And why are these people overtaking people who are already doing the limit?

Could the road be better? Of course. It may eventually be dual carriageway to Bungendore or Braidwood. But its extremely unlikely to be duplicated between Braidwood and the Coast in our lifetimes, which is exactly where this accident occured.

One problem is that isnt the road’s or people’s fault is when heading west at sundown, you do cop an eyefull of blinding sun quite often. But theres nothing that can be done about that, dual carriage way or not.

Rant off 😉

rbw said :

Just horrific. I remember my parents taking me down the coast several times a year for holidays to Broulee. As a kid around those ages of 11 and 13 I always lived in fear about that road trip as my dad would overtake on the wrong side of the road over and over. Those poor girls had to face my worst fear. Their passing looks to have been instantaneous so I hope they did not suffer for a minute or two.

Looks like in this crash no overtaking involved, their dad just lost control on a bend and veered onto the wrong side of the road.

I still drive this road back and forth all the time. Please only do it when you are fresh and alert!

I note your comment that your dad overtook on the “wrong” side of the road. On which side of the road do you overtake? I don’t think it’s possible to overtake without going onto the “wrong” side of the road, unless you only overtake at the rare stretches with overtaking lanes. Overtaking is legal, and safe, at lots of other points.

I recommend overtaking on the “wrong” side of the road (as you can’t do it on the “right” side of the road, unless you overtake on the left), with as much acceleration as possible (bugger the speed limit, but drive to the conditions) so that you’re on the wrong side of the road for the least amount of time and distance. Overtaking a car doing 95km/h by accelerating to 100km/h only is plain crazy. Better just to stay behind them.

Not a comment on this accident, but only on this post.

IP

The road is a disgrace.

It needs to be upgraded as a priority. Severe pressure should be applied to local members at federal and state level.

This ‘accident’ is a preventable occurrence by using modern road engineering.

Tetranitrate3:53 pm 10 Mar 12

c_c said :

It’s terrible and without knowing the facts which are under investigation, I wouldn’t want to speak specifically to this case. Generally though the road has a bad name but 9/10 times it’s the drivers who create the hazard. Road improvements would go a long way to making it safe, i.e. cope with bad driving, as would these tips:

If you can’t drive at 100km/h, don’t use the road. Too many infirm people driving well below the limit (on straight stretches even) causing traffic the build up.

If you can’t make it around an on camber corner without crossing the unbroken line into oncoming traffic, don’t use it.

And if you think it’s safe to overtake near a blind corner doing well over 100 on the wrong side of the road, seriously don’t drive it.

Wow, the blood isn’t even dry yet and you’re already out there victim blaming and agenda-pushing.

It’s terrible and without knowing the facts which are under investigation, I wouldn’t want to speak specifically to this case. Generally though the road has a bad name but 9/10 times it’s the drivers who create the hazard. Road improvements would go a long way to making it safe, i.e. cope with bad driving, as would these tips:

If you can’t drive at 100km/h, don’t use the road. Too many infirm people driving well below the limit (on straight stretches even) causing traffic the build up.

If you can’t make it around an on camber corner without crossing the unbroken line into oncoming traffic, don’t use it.

And if you think it’s safe to overtake near a blind corner doing well over 100 on the wrong side of the road, seriously don’t drive it.

My condolences to to the families involved.

GardeningGirl2:12 pm 10 Mar 12

Terrible news. My thoughts are with the families, and with those who attended the scene.
We drive that road regularly but not as often as we would if the road was in better condition. Nevertheless it’s not that bad if you drive appropriate to the conditions, unfortunately there’s always at least one or two times each trip when we say “did you see what that driver just did!”. That’s not intended as a comment on this tragic story (there’s been no suggestion of anything wrong like the crazy overtaking that is seen on that road) but just a comment on that road in general. Like rbw my family used to holiday at Broulee and its a nervewracking trip. Please be careful everyone.

Just horrific. I remember my parents taking me down the coast several times a year for holidays to Broulee. As a kid around those ages of 11 and 13 I always lived in fear about that road trip as my dad would overtake on the wrong side of the road over and over. Those poor girls had to face my worst fear. Their passing looks to have been instantaneous so I hope they did not suffer for a minute or two.

Looks like in this crash no overtaking involved, their dad just lost control on a bend and veered onto the wrong side of the road.

I still drive this road back and forth all the time. Please only do it when you are fresh and alert!

great post, couldn’t have said it better myself! thoughts and best wishes for the future of both families involved!! oxox!

Truly terrible. Condolence to those involved and their families. I hope the Firebrigade, Ambo’s and Police who attended the scene are counseled and looked after.

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