25 February 2009

Bring on the point to point speed cameras

| screaming banshee
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Yet again we have another contributor moaning about receiving a speeding fine for, well….speeding. With the usual back and forth about who was right and who was wrong.

I’ve only moved to Canberra 3 months ago and from day one it was clear to me that some of you lot are the worst drivers in Australia, never have I seen so many people speeding. Ironic considering we have some of the best road networks and traffic conditions of all the major cities. And dont bitch to me about how bad the traffic is either because some of you really have no idea. Yes, at times roads may get congested but there are always several ways to get to your destination and if you do have to wait or cue its really not that long. Try waiting through 12 changes of lights just to get through an intersection every other day, not because of an accident, just heavy traffic.

Every day I’ve got some clown sitting right up my arse waiting for the first opportunity to speed past me so they can be three seconds in front, or speed up to 80 or 90 in a 60 zone just so they can make it past me before the ‘form one lane’. I regularly travel on Baldwin drive past kaleen and its seems most people dont know or dont care that its a 60 zone, merrily chugging away at 80 past the high school. Then theres the roadworks zones, drivers dangerously going the regular road speed or faster when other users have legally slowed down to the roadworks speed only to have cars come screaming up behind them then swerve into another lane to go around them.

So bring on the speed cameras I say, one every 10 metres should do it and if you dont want to hand over your hard-earned then dont speed or carry on like a dickhead on our roads.

To those of you that drive safely, within the speed limits, and slow down for roadworks I thank you.

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Woody Mann-Caruso said :

increased from 3.4 deaths, to 4.1 deaths per 100,000 population, or 20%.

You fail Stats 101.

I used to get riled up about speed camera threads. Then I realised that I don’t need to. The world is already how I like it – lots of camera, plenty of dumb-arsed rev heads with tiny dicks or ugly ranga chicks getting caught and fattening the public purse. It’s only going to get better with more and better cameras and harsher speeding laws.

So, screaming banshee, do as I do – relax, enjoy, and know that technology will make it right in the end.

Yes… that’s what they thought when they created Skynet in the Terminator movies… and no, before anyone jumps up and begins hollering, I’m not suggesting that movies = real life. But I personally don’t wish to have technology in charge of the decisions because as any IT expert knows, it isn’t a failsafe solution. I’m a Canberra driver, I have sped and been caught in the past and I drive for work, so I am doing my utmost to drive like a sensible person. And while I agree with the whole ‘if you don’t speed you won’t get caught’ line, I also find that very occasionally if I’m jammed in the outside lane by some tweaker sitting next to me and another up my tailpipe, I’m going to speed up to get back into the left lane so I can continue on my way without grief. And point to point cameras aren’t going to see that are they? Screw that for an idea. I’ll take fixed cameras and deal with them, but I’m not giving any more money to the copper kitty.

Wow, loads of replies in a very short space of time.

As others have said, speed doesn’t kill, it is however very easy to detect and enforce, thus the reason we have speed camera’s and it’s the focus of so much gov’t policy (and advertising).

The real problems such as quick lane changing, failing to give way, inattention etc are much more difficult to detect, so rather than trying the law makers simply sweep the real problems under the rug.

P2P speed camera’s whilst may seem like a good idea you now have the problem that a large part of your focus is taken away from the road, and onto your speedo, in case you go over. To be honest I’d rather be in a car with a driver doing 20km/h over, but not have their eye’s leave the road, than in a car with a driver doing 20km/h under, but not have their eye’s leave the speedo. I know which car I’m more likely to survive in if something goes wrong.

Tha comment was brought up about NT’s new speed limits, and yes it actually raised the road toll considerably, and there is a very good reason why. With exception to the few drivers who know they are as good as Lowndes most of us when given free range on the speed, will usually drive at a safe speed in accordance to the conditions. Tell us we must drive at 100km/h we will drive at 100km/h even when the conditions dictate that 80km/h is too fast. Furthermore in our quest to not get pinged, we will concentrate on the speedo rather than the road.

That was meant to read “We have great roads here, believe me, I regularly drove all over Sydney most days for work and what we have here shits on all of that.” If that even makes sense…

Almost too many comments to read, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents worth of course.

I have to agree with Banshee to some degree, I moved to Canberra in October and was a bit taken aback by the driving and bitching about roads in the ACT.

We have great roads here, believe me, I regularly drove all over Sydney most days for work and what we have here shits all of that.

A lot of Canberra drivers seem to sit in the right hand lane and every day someone seems to sit right on my arse until they can overtake me. I am still on my P’s so am fairly careful about doing the speedlimit so I find it quite frustrating and sometimes intimidating to have that happen.

You can always spot a native Canberran as they whine and carry on about the traffic. Even in peak it’s sod all compared to everywhere else. Try 4hours to exit a city during a long weekend or a 90 minute commute being classed as ‘a good run’.

It’s a truly cultural thing for canberrans to refuse to travel from northside to southside or vice versa as its is deemed ‘too far’.

The dickhead strain certainly breeds true in our locale, not a week goes by where someone tries to jump ahead at a merge and squeeze their car into a space where a 1/4 of a car might fit, resulting in the ever present ‘brake light opera’.

Of special cultural significance is the ‘Canberra Pass’ where you are cruising merrily in the left lane at the speed limit, some idiot rips past, pulls in front and then slows to 10-20km/h below the speed limit. They get mightily offended if you dare overtake them. The look on their faces, similar in many respects to a bulldog licking piss off a thistle is always priceless.

I would mentioning cornering without slowing to 6.3km/week but being allowed to drive around corners in a safe and steady manner is prohibited by law and severely frowned upon. Much like cyclists using roads/footpaths/cycle paths/oxygen.

This being Canberra, I would like to know what the OP would like to have banned.
Cheers,
Fisho

Reprobate said :

..dumb one-size-fits-all message that you’re safe as long as you don’t exceed the speed limit.

Haven’t actually heard that message.

I keep hearing the one that if you stay below the speed limit, it will be safer than going over it. This seems to be almost always true.

And I have often received the message that if you go over the speed limit, you may well get fined. This seems to be true less often, and less consistently.

The research that has been done shows pretty consistently that as a group, people who think they are better drivers, and so should be exempt from speed restrictions, in fact have a higher average accident rate. There are exceptions, but there’s no point trying to design road safety laws around exceptions – we need straightforward, understandable rules. Which speed limits are.

I’m with banshee. Driving within the speed limit, rather than having a tanty when when someone else is or when you get caught, is a simple thing everyone can do that will reduce deaths on the road. It is not the answer to all deaths, but it is doable. I’ll try to do it better.

Clown Killer6:58 pm 25 Feb 09

130km/h seems almost excessive given the condition of some of those NT highways, let alone no limit.

Having done a bit of driving in the NT I would suggest that the reality is that the trinity of distance, speed and fuel consumption combine to limit truly excessive speeding. Sure, you were able to drive at 160km/h but at that speed over any significant distance you’d be unlikely to make the next town before you ran out of fuel.

Add to that the lottery of anything from kangaroos, cattle, water buffalo and camels wandering out onto the road and many drivers didn’t really push it much past 130km/h anyway.

deye said :

Case in point, north end of the Monaro highway between Fyshwick and Morshead Drive (before roadworks started at the end of it) is a 4 lane divided highway, wide bends, good visibility yet it is only 80. Anywhere else in Australia that would be 100 or 110.

Exactly right. The Monaro should be 100km/h minimum, from Morshead to bloody Johnson! And don’t get me started on 80k’s through Glenloch, 80k’s on Gungahlin and 60 around Atlhlon behind the Hyperdome.

Sgt.Bungers said :

The major change in road policy since then… “Speed Kills”. Speed limits have been introduced on country highways where previously there were no restrictions. Speed cameras have also been introduced.

I was in Darwin on holidays after the 130km/h limit had been introduced on the highways, and it was an election period. The opposition were airing ads promising to reverse the decision because “it wouldnt save lives”, and instead wanted to focus on seatbelts or something. 130km/h seems almost excessive given the condition of some of those NT highways, let alone no limit.

Criticism of our driving is just another form of Canberra bashing. Some offering criticism will be people with no real stake in our community. Others impatient and aggressive and not willing to be tolerant of others. Its not good enough that we have the lowest road deaths per 100000 drivers and per 100 million kilometres driven, both by a decent margin. These people then have to think up other reasons why this is so to justify their prejudices. If interstate drivers are so good at home why are they so appalling here.

Oh yeah, I have driven in many other places in the country and world, and while Canberra drivers $hit me to tears for several reasons (merging…) I find it hard to think that they are the worst out there. Perhaps the traffic can be frustrating for a city this size, but only for about 15min each day.

screaming banshee, are you driving a car or riding a push bike ?

Probably a recumbent.

From another thread “and a couple of stupid laws (You are required to fire a warning shot when approaching an intersection but it is illegal to discharge a firearm in public, work that out).”

old canberran5:07 pm 25 Feb 09

Anyone who reckons Canberra drivers are bad has never driven in Melbourne and don’t forget that a goodly proportion of Canberra drivers came from Melbourne (and other places) in the first place. Canberra hasn’t produced 350,000 people on its own.
It’s interesting that someone who has only been in Canberra for 3 months can label its drivers as the worst in Australia. That’s a pretty generalised statement SB.

RatsNest said :

farq said :

– Fine the people that start slowing down 500 meters from the lights just because they went orange (who cares about the effect on the traffic behind me)

you prefer the people who continue to accelerate until 10m from lights then brake heavily?

(that said, 500m is a bit excessive)

500m is probably a bit excessive, but if the traffic all slowed and was then able to travel through the set of lights after they changed back, overall traffic speed would increase. Accelerating into a stop is not only stupid its inefficient. Same with merging if everyone let go of their ego and left a gap for the merging lane to merge into, perhaps the overall traffic would only slow to to 50Km/h instead of 15Km/h and then everyone would get where they are going.

There are far too many precious poppets who believe that the road should empty before them.

Jim Jones said :

I must be missing something… Is your argument that speeding is dangerous, but the enforcement method is no good, or something else?

Something else Jim, something else.

Blamemonkey said :

@Furry Jesus
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-There,-Their-and-They're

His, Hers, ITs didn’t know so I decided to use THEIR

correct me if I am wrong…

You’re wrong. It would have been correct to say Furry Jesus and his/her use of italics.

Woody Mann-Caruso4:54 pm 25 Feb 09

increased from 3.4 deaths, to 4.1 deaths per 100,000 population, or 20%.

You fail Stats 101.

I used to get riled up about speed camera threads. Then I realised that I don’t need to. The world is already how I like it – lots of camera, plenty of dumb-arsed rev heads with tiny dicks or ugly ranga chicks getting caught and fattening the public purse. It’s only going to get better with more and better cameras and harsher speeding laws.

So, screaming banshee, do as I do – relax, enjoy, and know that technology will make it right in the end.

farq said :

Jim Jones said :

Farq – do you seriously think that speed isn’t an issue in car crashes?

Oh come on Jim, you know I don’t. It’s impossible to have smash if the car is doing 0kph.

You are either being silly, or trolling (I like trolls, so I hope it’s that).

Kind of like me saying “Do you seriously think that speed is the ONLY issue in car crashes?” Of course you don’t.

I thought trolling referred to being on the lookout for someone to have sex with (trolls being people who are on the lookout…). This doesn’t seem to be the way it’s being used here, although if it is, I’m with farq. I like trolls, particulrly if they happen to find me.

Speed limits are set to protect the lowest common denominator, on a dark and stormy night.

I too have dificulty understanding the various speed limits applied to ACT roads. Examples are everywhere, and the majority are limited to less than would appear reasonable.

Does some all knowing engineering bureaucrat sit at his desk and, having consulted the tea leaves, decide the limit to be applied. Consistency in the decision making process is sadly lacking. Compare 80Ks on the dual lane Monaro Highway (favourite speed trap) with the kangaroo riddled single carriageway (80Ks) Mugga Lane that joins it.

Is there some bible that the engineers refer to to set these limits? One could also cynically regard the limits as a gift to their gov employer of speed fine related revenue.

No, I’m not trolling. Sorry.

And of course speeding isn’t the ONLY factor in crashes – I don’t think anyone here has said (or even implied) this at all.

So, why did you write this: “Also each fatal wreck from a speeding driver is more ‘proof’ to them that the message is spot on (ignoring all times people speed and don’t crash).”

I must be missing something. Is your argument that speeding is dangerous, but the enforcement method is no good, or something else?

Jim Jones said :

Farq – do you seriously think that speed isn’t an issue in car crashes?

Oh come on Jim, you know I don’t. It’s impossible to have smash if the car is doing 0kph.

You are either being silly, or trolling (I like trolls, so I hope it’s that).

Kind of like me saying “Do you seriously think that speed is the ONLY issue in car crashes?” Of course you don’t.

I think the ‘point to point’ cameras thing was really just a bit of hyperbole.

deye said :

I didn’t say speed limits could be ignored, I said you can put in the point to point cameras once the stupid limits are addressed.

They should also be put where accidents commonly occur instead of just anywhere.

Jim Jones said :

Deye: people are always going to complain that some bits of road are rated too slow. I don’t know how you can go from this to some sort of argument that the speed limit can be ignored.

Yes, there are worse roads with higher speed limits – so what?

I didn’t say speed limits could be ignored, I said you can put in the point to point cameras once the stupid limits are addressed.

Another: Parkes way from the Roundabout at Corranderk st through to Glenloch interchange also 4 lane divided road, wide bends, good visibility, good entrances/exits (forgetting the bit at the interchange itself) again a road that anywhere else would be 100 or 110, but no we have 80 and 90 limits on it. There are numerous examples.

Farq – do you seriously think that speed isn’t an issue in car crashes?

Deye: people are always going to complain that some bits of road are rated too slow. I don’t know how you can go from this to some sort of argument that the speed limit can be ignored.

Yes, there are worse roads with higher speed limits – so what?

Sgt.Bungers I have to agree with what you said, except that I don’t think the pigs are really that enlightened on the issue. They tend to be the ones screaming ‘speed kills’ louder than just about anyone else.

I suppose they are just parroting the ideological line they got indoctrinated with. If they disagreed, then they would probably find it hard to sleep at night after a shift of enforcing a law they don’t believe in. Also each fatal wreck from a speeding driver is more ‘proof’ to them that the message is spot on (ignoring all times people speed and don’t crash).

Cognitive dissonance with a confirmation bias is my diagnosis.

Jim Jones said :

deye said :

You can bring on the point to point cameras when the speed limits are raised to a sensible speed instead of the stupidly low ones they are on the major roads at the moment.

“I’ll stop speeding when you put the speed limits up”.

Hurrrrrrr.

Case in point, north end of the Monaro highway between Fyshwick and Morshead Drive (before roadworks started at the end of it) is a 4 lane divided highway, wide bends, good visibility yet it is only 80. Anywhere else in Australia that would be 100 or 110.

Heck some of the back country roads that are 100 barely have enough bitumen width for a car to pass each other with bad visibility, bad edges and not very good surface yet drivers are able to maintain that speed. Are the people who set the speed limits saying that Canberra people need so much mollycoddling that they can’t handle 100 on a road that good ?

I recently read an article which suggested that although the road toll is progessively lowering here and in most developed countries, this is not due to speed cameras and other draconian measures. In fact, the number of crashes has remained static, but improvements in car safety (airbags, side intrusion, crumple zones) mean more people are surviving crashes, albeit with serious and permanent injuries. Will try and find the article and link it if I can.

Soon we’ll be back to having someone carry a red flag in front of our cars to warn others that our horseless carriages are on the move…

Aaaw. I’d hoped I was at least effable…

farq said :

– Fine the people that start slowing down 500 meters from the lights just because they went orange (who cares about the effect on the traffic behind me)

you prefer the people who continue to accelerate until 10m from lights then brake heavily?

(that said, 500m is a bit excessive)

farq said :

Pfft, I drive in sydney all the time and find them no better. Just more aggressive and used to narrower lanes. Get most sydney drivers down here on our roads and they can’t help but speed!

But, by and large, they don’t drive like arseholes. If you indicate your intention to change lanes, they’ll leave you some space to shift over.

In Canberra, if there are precisely two cars on an otherwise uninhabited stretch of road, and one car indicates before changing lanes (which would be a freaking miracle in itself) the other car would be duty bound to try to either (a) prevent this car from changing lanes by sitting next to it, or (b) at the very least speed up and ensure that the lane change didn’t mean that he/she had to slow down.

screaming banshee said :

Forget about the speeders in morning traffic! They help move things along (god knows we need it).

Morning traffic generally travels at a reasonable pace. It’s slow when it’s congested. The bulk of speeding drivers aren’t doing anything apart from frantically weaving from lane to lane in some pathetically desperate attempt to get two car lengths ahead. This doesn’t speed anything up at all, and if you read some traffic analysis literature it’s clear that it actually slows down traffic.

Yeah, there are always the pain-in-the-ass drivers that insist on doing 60 in an 80 zone. And I agree that they should be turned into Soilent Green. But they’re far less a problem than the massive amount of tailgaiting lane-weaving dildos out there who seem to think that the speed limit is some kind of challenge.

screaming banshee, are you driving a car or riding a push bike ?

The ACT has the lowest road toll in the country according to the statistics.

In the last 5 years, red light/speed cameras have doubled and fixed speed cameras have been introduced. During this time, the primary road safety policy has been “Speed Kills”. Yet, during this time the ACT’s road toll has increased from 3.4 deaths, to 4.1 deaths per 100,000 population, or 20%.

In the Nothern Territory, the road toll is over 28% higher than it was 5 years ago. The major change in road policy since then… “Speed Kills”. Speed limits have been introduced on country highways where previously there were no restrictions. Speed cameras have also been introduced.

“Speed Kills” polices and speed cameras are doing little, if in fact anything, to decrease the road toll all over the country. Based on the governments own statistics, I’m willing to wager that “Speed Kills” is making the road toll worse.

Yet governments, and some people such as yourself are calling for more and more of this failing form of enforcement. Why?

According to the Gov, when the road toll is low, it’s because of strict speed enforcement. When the road toll climbs, it’s because we’re all bad and have been “speeding”, thus more speed cameras are needed… it’s never because the government’s policies have failed, no way.

Of course, the hundreds of millions of dollars raised by speed cameras every year in this country alone is absolutely no incentive for GovCo’s to keep installing them. Not at all.

A realistic road safety policy? Get rid of cheap, unintelligent roadsafety enforcement, bring on more Police for the ACT.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/pdf/rda_0109.pdf

@Furry Jesus
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-There,-Their-and-They're

His, Hers, ITs didn’t know so I decided to use THEIR

correct me if I am wrong…

Everyone believes themselves to be a good driver, unlike every other idiot on the road. We continue to believe this even when we do foolish things in cars.

Cognitive dissonance with a confirmation bias is my diagnosis.

screaming banshee said :

….I actually appreciate Sydney drivers for their ability to get where they are going without unnecesarily holding up other road users, I do not dilly-dally.

Pfft, I drive in sydney all the time and find them no better. Just more aggressive and used to narrower lanes. Get most sydney drivers down here on our roads and they can’t help but speed!

Forget about the speeders in morning traffic! They help move things along (god knows we need it).

I think that if you took the slowest 10% of cars off the road, the rest of us would get though the traffic lights twice as quickly (in any city).

If you are so keen on people getting fines, how about we try it like this:
– Fine the people that take 4-5 seconds to get into gear and move off.
– Fine the people that start slowing down 500 meters from the lights just because they went orange (who cares about the effect on the traffic behind me)
– Fine everyone who sits in the right hand lane the whole length of parksway!!!!!!

Bet we all get to work faster, with less stress.

Jim Jones said :

Reprobate said :

Well done OP, you have fallen for the Govt’s “Speed Kills Mmmkay” message

So speeding is completely safe and it’s just a massive gummint conspiracy?

Well, that’s a relief.

Not at all, I just get frustrated at the dumb one-size-fits-all message that you’re safe as long as you don’t exceed the speed limit. Travelling at the posted 80km/h in an older car at night, in fog or rain on a twisting road like Coppins Crossing, or Mugga Lane is stupid – but legal. Travelling 5km/h over the posted limit on the Parkway during the day with clear visibility in a newer car and no traffic around is illegal AND more likely to be detected yet arguably safer than the other scenario.

poptop said :

Furry Jesus said :

and there’s only one of me

I was hoping for three – separate, indivisible and ineffable.

Disappointed.

Eat of this banana, it is my body.

Drink of this [censored] that I fling at you from behind the bars of my cage, it is my blood.

deye said :

You can bring on the point to point cameras when the speed limits are raised to a sensible speed instead of the stupidly low ones they are on the major roads at the moment.

“I’ll stop speeding when you put the speed limits up”.

Hurrrrrrr.

Furry Jesus said :

and there’s only one of me

I was hoping for three – separate, indivisible and ineffable.

Disappointed.

You can bring on the point to point cameras when the speed limits are raised to a sensible speed instead of the stupidly low ones they are on the major roads at the moment.

and there’s only one of me

sorry – first time using the Quote button.

I am confused by Furry Jesus and their use of italics….

Reprobate said :

Well done OP, you have fallen for the Govt’s “Speed Kills Mmmkay” message and if you don’t speed you’re safe and PTP cameras will fix everything. Shame that the behaviours you describe – tailgating, lane merging, general attitude – ARN’T picked up by cameras but can be by patrol cars.

What’s the point here – that speeding doesn’t kill? Cameras don’t stop speeding, much less bad driving of the types you’ve mentioned, and people can die in accidents where cars are moving at slower than posted speeds (e.g. children being struck by metal roo bars on mummy’s Range Rover when pouring out of the gates after school’s out). Fines slow people down, but mostly (like me) after you’ve had too many, and perhaps had your licence suspended. Talk to the cops and ambos who have to scrape people out of the wrecks and tell the family at home that someone won’t be back for dinner tonight. Then winge about cameras being an income-generating device, but be prepared for the response.

Don’t like how we drive, move somewhere else…..(or maybe pour the sand out of your vagina)

Yes there are speed limits but if individuals want to ignore them, then let them. whining anonymously on a Blog/forum isn’t going to change their behaviour.

PreciousLilywhite3:39 pm 25 Feb 09

Screaming AND Flaming Banshee :p

screaming banshee3:37 pm 25 Feb 09

Reprobate said :

Well done OP, you have fallen for the Govt’s “Speed Kills Mmmkay” message and if you don’t speed you’re safe and PTP cameras will fix everything. Shame that the behaviours you describe – tailgating, lane merging, general attitude – ARN’T picked up by cameras but can be by patrol cars.

You havn’t come here from Victoria, have you?

Glad to have more patrol cars on the road, P2P is merely the popular topic at the moment.

Oh, and no.

Reprobate said :

Well done OP, you have fallen for the Govt’s “Speed Kills Mmmkay” message

So speeding is completely safe and it’s just a massive gummint conspiracy?

Well, that’s a relief.

screaming banshee3:33 pm 25 Feb 09

@ farq (#2) – Single lane road

@ farq (#3) – Not trolling just pissed off, and regards moving efficiently I actually appreciate Sydney drivers for their ability to get where they are going without unnecesarily holding up other road users, I do not dilly-dally.

Well done OP, you have fallen for the Govt’s “Speed Kills Mmmkay” message and if you don’t speed you’re safe and PTP cameras will fix everything. Shame that the behaviours you describe – tailgating, lane merging, general attitude – ARN’T picked up by cameras but can be by patrol cars.

You havn’t come here from Victoria, have you?

It doesn’t matter how fast you drive on Gungahlin drive you will always be overtaken.

farq said :

oh and….

Maybe they are trying to pass you because you drive sooo slowly. You know, Accelerating as slowly as is mechanically possible without care about moving as efficiently and quickly as the conditions safely allow.

I suspect the OP is trolling.

No way is this a troll – it’s too true.

Have a drive down Southern Cross Drive where the speed limit is 60. If you do 60 (or even 70), you’ll have some flog trying to go through your car because he refuses to drive this slowly – doing the speed limit is treated like some sort of insult and everyone is up your ass tailgating and acting like a complete dick.

It’s the same thing over the bulk of Canberra.

eyeLikeCarrots3:11 pm 25 Feb 09

farq said :

I suspect the OP is trolling.

So was I 😀

DONT FEED THE TROLLZ

Awesome post.

I agree with every word … except ‘clowns’.

oh and….

Maybe they are trying to pass you because you drive sooo slowly. You know, Accelerating as slowly as is mechanically possible without care about moving as efficiently and quickly as the conditions safely allow.

I suspect the OP is trolling.

“…Every day I’ve got some clown sitting right up my arse waiting for the first opportunity to speed past me…” – Keep left unless overtaking. Let them pass.

“…Ironic considering we have some of the best road networks and traffic conditions of all the major cities…” – Don’t really think it is ironic, harder to speed on congested or poorly designed roads.

eyeLikeCarrots3:02 pm 25 Feb 09

screaming banshee <– lol nice username Grandad

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