Burqa laws hit the Assembly

johnboy 20 March 2012 77

burqa

Simon Corbell has announced the start of debate on burqa laws in the ACT:

The new laws, if passed, will also be used in situations under the road transport legislation when it is necessary to confirm a person?s identity, such as when a person is applying for a driver licence or having their photo taken for inclusion on their driver licence.

Mr Corbell reinforced that this legislation was not targeting any particular cultural group, and community groups had been consulted during the development stages of the legislation.

“The Government understands that this may be perceived as action to target a certain group in the community, but it is crucial to point out that cultural sensitivities have been taken into account when drafting the legislation,” Mr Corbell said.

“The laws include an option for a female with a head-covering to request that it only be removed in the presence of a female police officer in a private place in accordance with their cultural beliefs and practices.

“This new law is predominantly in response to previous cases where motorists have refused to remove items such as motorcycle helmets, balaclavas, large sunglasses and hoodies.”

A special defence applies where wearing the item that covers all or part of the person?s face is necessary for the person?s medical treatment. In such cases, the person is not required to remove that item.

Hard to see the Liberals saying no to this.

[Photo by tinou bao CC BY]


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LSWCHP LSWCHP 10:50 pm 23 Mar 12

astrojax said :

The simple fact is some cultures are rubbish, and some cultural practices are rubbish.

whoa, there, henry… especially on harmony day, a bit of a long bow to label whole cultures ‘rubbish’, though thoroughly agree with the lesser, second clause.

Nail has been hit on the head.

astrojax astrojax 2:56 pm 21 Mar 12

The simple fact is some cultures are rubbish, and some cultural practices are rubbish.

whoa, there, henry… especially on harmony day, a bit of a long bow to label whole cultures ‘rubbish’, though thoroughly agree with the lesser, second clause.

p1 p1 1:21 pm 21 Mar 12

Blen_Carmichael said :

“The laws include an option for a female with a head-covering to request that it only be removed in the presence of a female police officer in a private place in accordance with their cultural beliefs and practices.

Not practical. Most dayshift patrol cars are manned by only one officer, and there’s a 50/50 chance it’s a man. Even if it’s a female officer, I doubt she could be bothered going through the palaver of organising a private place for the subject to unveil. Also, what do you do with the three bewildered children in the back who are wondering where the police are taking mum? Chances are that for the routine stops, police will simply accept the ID without insisting on the subject unveiling. Back to square one.

Very practical. If the car is pulled over by a male who is alone, the following will have to happen.
– Person is stopped as part of usual traffic police operation.
– Person is wearing face covering, and indicates that for religious or cultural reasons, they will require to be taken to a private place and be identified by a female officer.
– Because person has three children with her, social services must be called to take charge of children while person is identified.
– Male police officer takes woman to the nearest private place (probably a police station).
– Female police officer makes her way to private place
– Female police officer identifies person.
– Person is returned to car, and then goes and retrieves their children from child services.

Time taken to confirm drivers identity, 12 hours.

HenryBG HenryBG 1:08 pm 21 Mar 12

Deref said :

Ben_Dover said :

Interesting that the lefties here seem to be supporting the subjugation of women. 🙂

This one isn’t.

I think, and I’ve said so in other threads, that the subjugation of women under Islam (or Christianity, for that matter) is an abomination. But I don’t think the law is a remedy. Time is. I can’t see the children and grandchildren of these women being nearly as ready to knuckle under to iron age superstition and misogynistic dictates.

In the meantime, this law seems like a practical compromise.

So…we should do away with anti-sexual-discrimination and anti-racism laws as well because Time will take care of it, eventually?

I think not.

The problem is the modern fad of pretending everything and everybody is equal and equally valid.
It just isn’t true.
The simple fact is some cultures are rubbish, and some cultural practices are rubbish.
The chronically unacceptable treatment of women under islam (They’re like “cat meat” according to Australia’s head muslim, so they deserve to be raped/eaten by cats if you leave them out) should be excluded from Australia’s shores pro-actively by all means possible – as the French have finally belatedly realised.

We don’t have a properly secular society yet, and this legislation appears to be injecting renewed – discriminatory and sexist – religiosity into our system of government, which should be completely unacceptable.

Blen_Carmichael Blen_Carmichael 12:43 pm 21 Mar 12

“The laws include an option for a female with a head-covering to request that it only be removed in the presence of a female police officer in a private place in accordance with their cultural beliefs and practices.

Not practical. Most dayshift patrol cars are manned by only one officer, and there’s a 50/50 chance it’s a man. Even if it’s a female officer, I doubt she could be bothered going through the palaver of organising a private place for the subject to unveil. Also, what do you do with the three bewildered children in the back who are wondering where the police are taking mum? Chances are that for the routine stops, police will simply accept the ID without insisting on the subject unveiling. Back to square one.

unclebill unclebill 12:31 pm 21 Mar 12

So how does the legislation cover or uncover full facial makeup like a car full of rabid Raider or Brumbies fans or faceflag painted orstaylians on Australia day……or an insane clown posse or I’m in my stage makeup or in street performer mode…..

EvanJames EvanJames 11:41 am 21 Mar 12

p1 said :

Oh, and happy Harmony Day everyone!

I hope everyone’s wearing their burquas in harmony with the fundamentalist muslims!

Deref Deref 10:58 am 21 Mar 12

Ben_Dover said :

Interesting that the lefties here seem to be supporting the subjugation of women. 🙂

This one isn’t.

I think, and I’ve said so in other threads, that the subjugation of women under Islam (or Christianity, for that matter) is an abomination. But I don’t think the law is a remedy. Time is. I can’t see the children and grandchildren of these women being nearly as ready to knuckle under to iron age superstition and misogynistic dictates.

In the meantime, this law seems like a practical compromise.

p1 p1 10:34 am 21 Mar 12

Oh, and happy Harmony Day everyone!

p1 p1 10:15 am 21 Mar 12

Fender said :

I was of the perhaps misguided belief that the done thing is to observe and respect the ways of the country you are in. Not change them to suit yourself and you religious beliefs.

I think you will find you have it backwards. In Australia we have laws which require the police (and everyone else) to respect the religious observances of everyone. How is wearing a burqa not observing and respecting that law?

I think you will find that, rather then changing what we do to suit other people, we are simply changing a law we already had, which was designed to protect all our freedoms, so that it better reflects the original intention.

Fender Fender 7:49 am 21 Mar 12

I was of the perhaps misguided belief that the done thing is to observe and respect the ways of the country you are in. Not change them to suit yourself and you religious beliefs. Anybody with two bob’s worth of common sense knows what religion is a crock anyhow.
As the great Angry Anderson once said, “When in Rome, eat spaghetti”

guinness guinness 6:55 am 21 Mar 12

I am so sick of this bull*** – “Muslims, treat women badly, blah blah blah” – Do you think there is not a christian man out there who doesnt, beat, rape and humilliate his wife? there are plenty of Domestically violent people of all relgions, if you knew even a tiny bit of the Islamic faith you would know how wrong and putrid your thoughts are.

(And for those who will assume it, im a jew not a muslim)

People’s Front of Judea?

bd84 bd84 11:12 pm 20 Mar 12

Can’t be bothered reading the comments , no doubt there will be the usual outrageous comments.

He legislation looks reasonable as appropriate precautions have been included. There’s no logical argument against it.

Roadrage77 Roadrage77 10:33 pm 20 Mar 12

Burqa’s are so 2005.

Watson Watson 9:53 pm 20 Mar 12

Jim Jones said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Ben_Dover said :

Interesting that the lefties here seem to be supporting the subjugation of women. 🙂

Not this one. I support banning the Burqa and other tools that are used by religious nutters of any flavour to subjugate women.

So a ban on high heel shoes is next?

+100

And underwire bras.

Watson Watson 9:50 pm 20 Mar 12

Ben_Dover said :

Interesting that the lefties here seem to be supporting the subjugation of women. 🙂

Similarly, it is also not helpful to assume that just because some Muslim clerics endorse misogynistic practices such as domestic violence and marital rape, that all Muslims do. Extremist fundamentalist Muslims do not represent the majority and their comments often only fuel xenophobic attitudes.

But Western feminists have still been far too politically correct in their approaches. Muslim women may not all be victims but when feminists such as Naomi Wolf argue that the burqa is potentially liberating and empowering (because it supposedly frees women from the male gaze) it just makes a mockery of the process by which a woman’s social identity is systematically erased. If non-Western cultures are designated as “off limits” to unadulterated feminist criticism, then the advances made by Western feminists since the 1970s are intended and reserved for Western (predominantly white) women only.

These issues are clearly complex. But ultimately blaming Muslim women for participating in their own oppression (and the subjugation of women at large) does little to advance the situation. Those women who accept and even condone their own persecution merely illustrate the need for more education and feminist intervention.

Nina Funnell is a researcher in the Journalism and Media Research Centre at the University of NSW.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/feminists-dilemma-how-to-respond-to-muslim-oppression-20110106-19gwe.html#ixzz1pcWz6LlS

Hm, Nina Funnell is clearly a muslim name. So both you and her are experts on muslim religion and culture which clearly gives you every right to patronise the women you claim to defend by telling them what is best for them and forcing them to follow your advice. Makes total sense to me…

Pandy Pandy 8:18 pm 20 Mar 12

fabforty said :

longshanks said :

DUB said :

They should be illegal, similar to France.Doubt that burqa will qualify as item required for medical treatment. 🙂
To those opposing- just remember that you have to follow other country’s custom laws when you live or visit there- no short sleeve shirts, shorts, women must cover their heads.

I see your point, but I would like to think that here in Australia something that sets us apart from the “other countries” you’re referring to is the degree of freedom that we all enjoy. This includes the freedom to dress as we choose.

The argument that “In [insert name of conservative Islamic country] western women have to cover their heads, therefore in Australia Muslim women should have to uncover theirs”, is completely illogical, and implies that we should somehow be basing our own social and cultural freedoms on those of other countries.

Having said that, the freedom we enjoy exists alongside, and must respect, the law of the land. Therefore, if there is a law which allows police to enforce the removal of helmets, hats, hoodies, balaclavas, etc. then it is entirely logical, sensible and reasonable to apply that law to head coverings such as scarves and burqas.

For once the government seems to be going about this the right way – although I’m sure there are plenty of people (on both sides of the debate) who will find something to whinge about.

Very well said.

And for those who believe we should “ban the burka” totally and are using women’s rights as thinly veiled (pardon the pun) justification for their own bigotry, I think you should stop and think. Isn’t forcing a woman out of her burka just as bad as forcing her into it ? I don’t support women being forced into wearing burkas, but if they choose to wear one, then let them have that choice.

I believe with time and increased education and rights for Muslim women, burkas will eventually disappear. So back off everyone. Nothing makes you hold onto something more strongly than someone trying to take it from you by force.

Oh yes, we should have educated the South to end slavery rather than do it by force. Eventually they would have come around to our way of thinking.

LSWCHP LSWCHP 8:11 pm 20 Mar 12

I despise the whole idea of people being indoctrinated into wearing clothing that imprisons and hinders them. I abhor the implication that “all other men are lusting after my female possession here, so I’d better cover her from head to foot”. Everything about the burqa and its associated fairly tales is simply rotten.

But it’s supposed to be a free country. If people choose to engage in this nonsense, even if for the most rotten of reasons, then they should go for it without hindrance.

And introducing legislation that provides for people to identify themselves to the law when required seems like a reasonable part of the compromises required to live here.

fabforty fabforty 5:54 pm 20 Mar 12

longshanks said :

DUB said :

They should be illegal, similar to France.Doubt that burqa will qualify as item required for medical treatment. 🙂
To those opposing- just remember that you have to follow other country’s custom laws when you live or visit there- no short sleeve shirts, shorts, women must cover their heads.

I see your point, but I would like to think that here in Australia something that sets us apart from the “other countries” you’re referring to is the degree of freedom that we all enjoy. This includes the freedom to dress as we choose.

The argument that “In [insert name of conservative Islamic country] western women have to cover their heads, therefore in Australia Muslim women should have to uncover theirs”, is completely illogical, and implies that we should somehow be basing our own social and cultural freedoms on those of other countries.

Having said that, the freedom we enjoy exists alongside, and must respect, the law of the land. Therefore, if there is a law which allows police to enforce the removal of helmets, hats, hoodies, balaclavas, etc. then it is entirely logical, sensible and reasonable to apply that law to head coverings such as scarves and burqas.

For once the government seems to be going about this the right way – although I’m sure there are plenty of people (on both sides of the debate) who will find something to whinge about.

Very well said.

And for those who believe we should “ban the burka” totally and are using women’s rights as thinly veiled (pardon the pun) justification for their own bigotry, I think you should stop and think. Isn’t forcing a woman out of her burka just as bad as forcing her into it ? I don’t support women being forced into wearing burkas, but if they choose to wear one, then let them have that choice.

I believe with time and increased education and rights for Muslim women, burkas will eventually disappear. So back off everyone. Nothing makes you hold onto something more strongly than someone trying to take it from you by force.

gazket gazket 5:30 pm 20 Mar 12

I’d like thank Carnita Matthews for this law coming about. She tried to lie and cheat the system by hiding behind a burqa . So fair enough

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