5 April 2013

Bus Lanes in Canberra?

| peebus
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Hi Folks

I’m curious as to the legalities of the mini bus lanes at many Canberra intersections. I understand that they are there to allow busses a head start on the green so they can merge more safely in heavy traffic. But all too many times I’ve had busses come barrelling up from behind when traffic is flowing through on green only to have them use the bus lane and then push back in rather dangerously. Also worth mentioning is how many buses can use the lane together. I’ve seen as many as 4 buses stacked waiting for the bus light – where most intersections only cater timing for a single bus – thus the other few busses in the line make no further gain and again inconvenience normal traffic when they need to push back in.

Are buses allowed to use these bus lanes when the lights are already on green? Or the more pressing question – should busses be allowed to do this? Am I the only one who thinks these two issues are a dangerous practice? Discuss.

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Took my son for his 1st bus ride yesterday (my first on over 20 years).. Bus left Tuggers depot 12 minutes late, driver drove along the wrong route..

Nice to see nothing has changed.

On the upside, Driver was very polite and friendly..

wildturkeycanoe said :

Oh quit your bitching, cry-baby. Off-road stops are an impossibility on the small streets you’re describing, for a whole bunch of reasons that have already been highlighted. If people want to overtake in the oncoming traffic lane then it’s on their heads that they’re risking people’s lives and “But I was stuck behind a bloody bus!” is not going to be a satisfactory answer for anybody in the event of a collision. The best solution to your problem is to get over yourself, then get over this.

And where are these whole bunch of reasons??? Apart from the disability thing [absolute nonsense if you ask me] and the “buses can’t keep schedule if they use bus stop bays”, not convincing or they wouldn’t have them. At least in my opinion.
Yes, if people take the risk of overtaking where it isn’t safe, it’s on their heads, but increasing the frequency of these circumstances only increases the chances of someone coming unstuck and becoming a regular user of the disabled bus services. I’m one of those who gets frustrated at how a bus in front of you can make your trip home after a hard day of work an absolute nightmare. Tired, anxious, impatient and not in the mood to hit the anchors when someone wants to get off the slow moving heavy vehicle in front I would rather see the two metres of government owned land being used for the bus to pull safely to the side and let the twenty vehicles behind continue their journey, rather than banking up three intersections behind [yes I’m exaggerating, but making a point nonetheless].
I am suggesting a means by which everything to do with bus stops becomes safer for everyone involved. If you think safety should be left to the whims of the risk-taking drivers out there [and we know there are plenty], then feel free to keep them in control of the future incidents that may have been prevented.

First world problem? I have a tip for you princess, its not all about you you know. Other people live in the world & they have just as much right to be there as you, even if they are on a bus.

It takes nothing more than seconds to let someone off a bus. how do you react when you get an actual problem in your life?

The other thing, you are always banging on at how cycle infrastructure and public art is a waste of money but you want the Govco to build a but layby at every bus stop so you cant get home a minute quicker in the afternoon?

As the good Dr says, get over yourself.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Taxis and minibuses drop off people do they not? Occasionally cars and vans do too. Your opening reply does not nullify my point whatsoever. As for the boy you refer to, that is sad and unfortunate, but nothing to do with whether a bus stops in a siding or not. When a bus stops, it does not mean the cars in both directions stop, so being hit by an overtaking car or a car coming the other direction is much the same thing. That is why the doors on the bus are on the left, not on the right and why you wait for the bus to leave before crossing the road. Basic rules which if not adhered to produce a similar result, which I have also witnessed. Not at all the fault of the drivers, but of the passengers.
As pointed out in this post already, the rules are already there for cars to give way when a bus indicates to pull out into traffic and if every bus was to act like a mobile road block, never to be overtaken, what point would there be in having that rule? Not to mention the chaos the road network would become.

Sure taxis stop and drop people off, however it is not quite the same. As for mini buses don’t see too many of them around here.

But with the buses and the death of my friend it had EVERYTHING to do with a car overtaking a bus. Sure my friend (who was 14/15 at the time) contributed, but the accident occurred when a a car overtook a bus. A pull in bay would not help in that situation, in fact it would probably contribute to it happening more as the cars would be overtaking buses at a far greater speed. And for what to save you 30 precious seconds?

MrPC said :

In Melbourne a couple of years ago they started concreting in the old bus stop pull-in bays and reinstating normal bus stops that are parallel to the kerb. This was especially an issue when they started introducing large numbers of low floor buses, combined with service level upgrades on a few SmartBus routes.

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Moreinfoandservices/PublicTransport/BusProjects/BusStopImprovements.htm

See also page 6 of this PDF

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/FC0338A1-AE4A-4471-8D75-99AE36C6078F/0/vrpin013261.pdf

If a bay is provided, clearly the bus drivers are going to be using them. However, where they are not provided, you’re not going to see a great deal more of them built in the coming years. The ageing population (visual disabilities/sight line issues), the introduction of low floor buses (which if the bus is low on its air bags can lose the front step/primary exit if the driver misjudges the kerb location on a turn), and the need for bus stops to be properly designed for wheelchair visibility and access, will see to that.

I take it a train wouldn’t have the same problems?

Bring on light rail for the disabled.

One of the good things about trains is that they can open multiple doors at stops so have minimal waiting time, if buses opened their backdoors to let people on we’d have quicker buses.

Also if the lights were computer controlled on bus routes to automatically give busses priority we’d probably get halfway decent times, and would pretty much scrap the need for capital metro from Gungahlin to civic.

As the bus approaches the lights it trips it to give the bus green (you’d have to give enough time to go though proper amber etc for the other traffic).

They do this in the states for ambulances and EMT’s, which would also be handy in Canberra.

wildturkeycanoe7:08 pm 07 Apr 13

JC said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

I
JC – Why should the traffic stop for the bus? Normally a car, van, minibus, taxi or otherwise that stops on the side of a road in any suburban street can let vehicles go around. Buses, just seem to be a little too big for this to occur and they always stop in a spot where it is illegal to pass.

The difference between a bus and the vehicles you describe is the fact that buses have people getting on and off them. Why should they stop? Well how about I give you the phone number of the parents of a friend of mine. When you call ask them how their son is. When they say he is dead ask them how he died. I’ll give you a hint, bus, bus stop car not stopping, you fill in the rest and having pull in bus bays on suburban roads won’t help, in fact it would make it worse because then the cars would not even have to slow down.

Like you I do occasionally get a little but shitty having to waiting for a bus to do it’s thing, ie pick-up and drop off passengers but in the grand scheme of things that minute or so of my time is nothing compared to the potential waste of life from someone getting killed.

Taxis and minibuses drop off people do they not? Occasionally cars and vans do too. Your opening reply does not nullify my point whatsoever. As for the boy you refer to, that is sad and unfortunate, but nothing to do with whether a bus stops in a siding or not. When a bus stops, it does not mean the cars in both directions stop, so being hit by an overtaking car or a car coming the other direction is much the same thing. That is why the doors on the bus are on the left, not on the right and why you wait for the bus to leave before crossing the road. Basic rules which if not adhered to produce a similar result, which I have also witnessed. Not at all the fault of the drivers, but of the passengers.
As pointed out in this post already, the rules are already there for cars to give way when a bus indicates to pull out into traffic and if every bus was to act like a mobile road block, never to be overtaken, what point would there be in having that rule? Not to mention the chaos the road network would become.

In Melbourne a couple of years ago they started concreting in the old bus stop pull-in bays and reinstating normal bus stops that are parallel to the kerb. This was especially an issue when they started introducing large numbers of low floor buses, combined with service level upgrades on a few SmartBus routes.

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Moreinfoandservices/PublicTransport/BusProjects/BusStopImprovements.htm

See also page 6 of this PDF

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/FC0338A1-AE4A-4471-8D75-99AE36C6078F/0/vrpin013261.pdf

If a bay is provided, clearly the bus drivers are going to be using them. However, where they are not provided, you’re not going to see a great deal more of them built in the coming years. The ageing population (visual disabilities/sight line issues), the introduction of low floor buses (which if the bus is low on its air bags can lose the front step/primary exit if the driver misjudges the kerb location on a turn), and the need for bus stops to be properly designed for wheelchair visibility and access, will see to that.

wildturkeycanoe said :

I
JC – Why should the traffic stop for the bus? Normally a car, van, minibus, taxi or otherwise that stops on the side of a road in any suburban street can let vehicles go around. Buses, just seem to be a little too big for this to occur and they always stop in a spot where it is illegal to pass.

The difference between a bus and the vehicles you describe is the fact that buses have people getting on and off them. Why should they stop? Well how about I give you the phone number of the parents of a friend of mine. When you call ask them how their son is. When they say he is dead ask them how he died. I’ll give you a hint, bus, bus stop car not stopping, you fill in the rest and having pull in bus bays on suburban roads won’t help, in fact it would make it worse because then the cars would not even have to slow down.

Like you I do occasionally get a little but shitty having to waiting for a bus to do it’s thing, ie pick-up and drop off passengers but in the grand scheme of things that minute or so of my time is nothing compared to the potential waste of life from someone getting killed.

wildturkeycanoe4:02 pm 07 Apr 13

DrKoresh said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

I do not agree with any of you about the responses to bus stops on narrow suburban streets.
JC – Why should the traffic stop for the bus? Normally a car, van, minibus, taxi or otherwise that stops on the side of a road in any suburban street can let vehicles go around. Buses, just seem to be a little too big for this to occur and they always stop in a spot where it is illegal to pass. There are off-road bus stops around Canberra all over the place, generally on faster roads, so why not in the burbs?
MrPC – If the slip lane was designed correctly there wouldn’t be issues. A lot of the drop off points have grass between stop and footpath anyway, so a little adjustment to the ramp/kerb isn’t going to be an issue. Anyway, bus drivers are professionals, so they should be able to parallel park shouldn’t they? Buses have a reverse gear!
As for on time running, they have right of way regardless of what cars do behind them. They don’t have to wait so what is your point here? Do roadworks and traffic jams inhibit their timelines? If so, how about banning these from bus routes? How about everyone else’ on time running? Buses are more important!!!!
RB78 – You pretty much gave me the evidence supporting my proposal. If you can’t police every bus stop where risks are taken, reduce the risks by making the stop safer – making a stop that doesn’t force impatient drivers to get into dangerous situations. The first step in hazard management is removing the risk. The risk is people driving into oncoming traffic. You cannot control this hazard because it is based on human behavior. Remove this from the equation with an engineering solution and there is no problem.

Oh quit your bitching, cry-baby. Off-road stops are an impossibility on the small streets you’re describing, for a whole bunch of reasons that have already been highlighted. If people want to overtake in the oncoming traffic lane then it’s on their heads that they’re risking people’s lives and “But I was stuck behind a bloody bus!” is not going to be a satisfactory answer for anybody in the event of a collision. The best solution to your problem is to get over yourself, then get over this.

And where are these whole bunch of reasons??? Apart from the disability thing [absolute nonsense if you ask me] and the “buses can’t keep schedule if they use bus stop bays”, not convincing or they wouldn’t have them. At least in my opinion.
Yes, if people take the risk of overtaking where it isn’t safe, it’s on their heads, but increasing the frequency of these circumstances only increases the chances of someone coming unstuck and becoming a regular user of the disabled bus services. I’m one of those who gets frustrated at how a bus in front of you can make your trip home after a hard day of work an absolute nightmare. Tired, anxious, impatient and not in the mood to hit the anchors when someone wants to get off the slow moving heavy vehicle in front I would rather see the two metres of government owned land being used for the bus to pull safely to the side and let the twenty vehicles behind continue their journey, rather than banking up three intersections behind [yes I’m exaggerating, but making a point nonetheless].
I am suggesting a means by which everything to do with bus stops becomes safer for everyone involved. If you think safety should be left to the whims of the risk-taking drivers out there [and we know there are plenty], then feel free to keep them in control of the future incidents that may have been prevented.

wildturkeycanoe said :

I do not agree with any of you about the responses to bus stops on narrow suburban streets.
JC – Why should the traffic stop for the bus? Normally a car, van, minibus, taxi or otherwise that stops on the side of a road in any suburban street can let vehicles go around. Buses, just seem to be a little too big for this to occur and they always stop in a spot where it is illegal to pass. There are off-road bus stops around Canberra all over the place, generally on faster roads, so why not in the burbs?
MrPC – If the slip lane was designed correctly there wouldn’t be issues. A lot of the drop off points have grass between stop and footpath anyway, so a little adjustment to the ramp/kerb isn’t going to be an issue. Anyway, bus drivers are professionals, so they should be able to parallel park shouldn’t they? Buses have a reverse gear!
As for on time running, they have right of way regardless of what cars do behind them. They don’t have to wait so what is your point here? Do roadworks and traffic jams inhibit their timelines? If so, how about banning these from bus routes? How about everyone else’ on time running? Buses are more important!!!!
RB78 – You pretty much gave me the evidence supporting my proposal. If you can’t police every bus stop where risks are taken, reduce the risks by making the stop safer – making a stop that doesn’t force impatient drivers to get into dangerous situations. The first step in hazard management is removing the risk. The risk is people driving into oncoming traffic. You cannot control this hazard because it is based on human behavior. Remove this from the equation with an engineering solution and there is no problem.

Oh quit your bitching, cry-baby. Off-road stops are an impossibility on the small streets you’re describing, for a whole bunch of reasons that have already been highlighted. If people want to overtake in the oncoming traffic lane then it’s on their heads that they’re risking people’s lives and “But I was stuck behind a bloody bus!” is not going to be a satisfactory answer for anybody in the event of a collision. The best solution to your problem is to get over yourself, then get over this.

wildturkeycanoe12:55 pm 07 Apr 13

I do not agree with any of you about the responses to bus stops on narrow suburban streets.
JC – Why should the traffic stop for the bus? Normally a car, van, minibus, taxi or otherwise that stops on the side of a road in any suburban street can let vehicles go around. Buses, just seem to be a little too big for this to occur and they always stop in a spot where it is illegal to pass. There are off-road bus stops around Canberra all over the place, generally on faster roads, so why not in the burbs?
MrPC – If the slip lane was designed correctly there wouldn’t be issues. A lot of the drop off points have grass between stop and footpath anyway, so a little adjustment to the ramp/kerb isn’t going to be an issue. Anyway, bus drivers are professionals, so they should be able to parallel park shouldn’t they? Buses have a reverse gear!
As for on time running, they have right of way regardless of what cars do behind them. They don’t have to wait so what is your point here? Do roadworks and traffic jams inhibit their timelines? If so, how about banning these from bus routes? How about everyone else’ on time running? Buses are more important!!!!
RB78 – You pretty much gave me the evidence supporting my proposal. If you can’t police every bus stop where risks are taken, reduce the risks by making the stop safer – making a stop that doesn’t force impatient drivers to get into dangerous situations. The first step in hazard management is removing the risk. The risk is people driving into oncoming traffic. You cannot control this hazard because it is based on human behavior. Remove this from the equation with an engineering solution and there is no problem.

wildturkeycanoe said :

While we are on the topic of buses and their lanes, why have the government designed bus stops in narrow suburban streets so that when they pull up to pick up passengers, all the cars behind have no way of getting around and have to stop as well? Usually there is a double white or traffic island and then there are double whites or oncoming vehicles the full length of the journey.

In my experience as a bus passenger, there are many motorists who won’t let a traffic island, double white lines, an intersection, a bend in the road or oncoming traffic stop them from flooring it past a bus that’s stopping, stopped, or has already left the bus stop.

If anyone’s ever caught a bus along Bugden Avenue in Fadden (particularly from Sternberg up to around Chataway Cr) they’ll know what I mean. The amount of people who overtake the bus along there, across double white lines, on beds in the road is actually frightening. I’ve witnessed countless near misses.

Putting bus stops in Pull-In bays are a bad idea, for several reasons.

They are bad for the disabled. When the bus has to manouver into a bay, it’s more difficult to align the bus with the kerb. That makes it hard for people with mobility issues to step out of the bus, and it also raises issues with wheelchair users, especially if the footpath had to be narrowed in the process.

Also, they are bad for the on-time running of the buses. Motorists regularly ignore the road rule that gives buses right of way in built up areas when leaving bus stops. As such, it’s better to make the motorists wait behind the stopped bus. Or at the very least provide an overtaking opportunity that doesn’t result in the bus having to yield its ability to depart the bus stop immediately. That might mean a centre overtaking lane, or broken centre lines, or a rat run via a service road to the left of the bus stop.

wildturkeycanoe said :

While we are on the topic of buses and their lanes, why have the government designed bus stops in narrow suburban streets so that when they pull up to pick up passengers, all the cars behind have no way of getting around and have to stop as well? Usually there is a double white or traffic island and then there are double whites or oncoming vehicles the full length of the journey. This means everyone has to slow down to 40 and has to stop at every drop-off, not being able to get passed the mobile roadblock. Instead of new breakable glass shelters, they could have placed off-road bus stops so traffic can continue uninterrupted. If I were to do 30km/h and stop every couple of hundred meters in my car, I’d have police pulling me over so why do buses get away with it?

You have answered your own question. The reason they have done it is so that you do stop behind the bus, not that it stops that many anyway.

As for the shelters the glass ones were for the most part are paid for and maintained free of charge to Action by the company in exchange for advertising. Besides the cost of putting in off road bus bays would be a hell of a lot more than the cost of a bus shelter anyway.

wildturkeycanoe6:24 am 07 Apr 13

While we are on the topic of buses and their lanes, why have the government designed bus stops in narrow suburban streets so that when they pull up to pick up passengers, all the cars behind have no way of getting around and have to stop as well? Usually there is a double white or traffic island and then there are double whites or oncoming vehicles the full length of the journey. This means everyone has to slow down to 40 and has to stop at every drop-off, not being able to get passed the mobile roadblock. Instead of new breakable glass shelters, they could have placed off-road bus stops so traffic can continue uninterrupted. If I were to do 30km/h and stop every couple of hundred meters in my car, I’d have police pulling me over so why do buses get away with it?

The section of Athllon Drive between Drakeford Drive & Sulwood Drive would be because anyone outside of that section would be using Drakeford Drive to get to the City. With not as much traffic heading to Woden. The came would apply for the section between Melrose Drive & Hindmarsh Drive. Where most of your traffic comes from City bound traffic heading along Melrose Drive.

gooterz said :

The other side of drakeford drive was duplicated probably when we last had liberal government.

Ahh a cynic. Two points as mentioned above the part of Athlon Drive that is duplicated was done using federal funds for public transport improvements, one lane each way was a dedicated bus lane.

Secondly ACT Labor have actually delivered on lots of road duplication projects. Gungahlin Drive being one, not helped by the ACT Liberals slowing it down in the courts of course, meaning it ended up costing more. Though before I get pounced on clearly Labor did stuff that one up themselves too.

However there are many more that have been delivered without stuff up including in Tuggeranong. I recall it was in the time that Labor has been in power in the ACT that Drakeford Drive was duplicated from Greenway to Calwell. There is of course the more recent duplication of the Monaro Highway over Canberra Ave and Lanyon Drive to Jerra.

Sure more does need to be done such as Athlon Drive all the way from Tuggeranong to Woden and IMO Erindale Drive and Ashley Drive (and this coming from someone from Belco).

As for ACT Libs what road did they duplicate when last in power?

Tenpoints said :

Not sure on whether they are legally allowed to cross unbroken lines to enter into the bus lane, but if it’s the only way to physically move you bus into the lane is by doing just that then I would hazard a guess that… yes?

That’s covered by Special Purpose lanes (Bus, Bicycle, Transit, etc). If you are allowed to use it, you are allowed to cross the solid line. For most people, most of the time, they aren’t allowed to cross it so it makes sense that its solid.

gooterz said :

Pork Hunt said :

gooterz said :

Stuff the buses there are several places that need duplication.

Why are only parts of Athllon drive drive single lane, and why is there a forced turn at phillip?

Are you and gazket the same person? Can you give that to us in english please?

Athllon drive merges at the intersection of Drakeford where its 2 Car lanes and a bus lane with an additional slip lane.

All 4 of these lanes of traffic merge to a single lane each way, then split apart and join together, go for about a KM as single lane 80km/h undivided road.

Then as it goes past woden it becomes two lanes, yet one of the lanes is forced to turn left. (Meaning 90% of the traffic bottlenecks doing 60km/h in one lane.)

The other side of drakeford drive was duplicated probably when we last had liberal government.

Isabella drive is the same.

I have no idea who gazket or why you think we share a body.

Are you santa claus?

How is it that you come up with stuff like I asked you to explain and then when you do explain, you do so with the eloquence of Shakespeare? State your point properly the first time and stop wasting my time…

Gazket is a rioter, don’t tell me you haven’t seen his posts?

And finally, there is no Santa.

Pork Hunt said :

gooterz said :

Stuff the buses there are several places that need duplication.

Why are only parts of Athllon drive drive single lane, and why is there a forced turn at phillip?

Are you and gazket the same person? Can you give that to us in english please?

Athllon drive merges at the intersection of Drakeford where its 2 Car lanes and a bus lane with an additional slip lane.

All 4 of these lanes of traffic merge to a single lane each way, then split apart and join together, go for about a KM as single lane 80km/h undivided road.

Then as it goes past woden it becomes two lanes, yet one of the lanes is forced to turn left. (Meaning 90% of the traffic bottlenecks doing 60km/h in one lane.)

The other side of drakeford drive was duplicated probably when we last had liberal government.

Isabella drive is the same.

I have no idea who gazket or why you think we share a body.

Are you santa claus?

Pork Hunt said :

gooterz said :

Stuff the buses there are several places that need duplication.

Why are only parts of Athllon drive drive single lane, and why is there a forced turn at phillip?

Are you and gazket the same person? Can you give that to us in english please?

What he is saying kinda makes sense, but let me translate. Simply he is saying in some cases what is needed is road duplication that will benfit ALL road users including buses rather than more bus lanes.

Athlon drive is a class example actually. The duplicated part between Farrer and Kambah was actually built using federal finds for public transport improvements with the intent that one lane would be for buses and the other for other vehicles. This is how it operated for a while, but cannot remember how long before it was changed to be two lanes each way. This ended up benefiting everyone. though it is odd that the last km towards Woden remains a single way each way.

Jim Jones said :

basketofcat said :

So the buses and the rules quite clearly say that you’re to give way to a bus merging from left to right into existing traffic. What about the reverse, do buses have right of way merging right to left? I’ve been nearly clobbered on several occasions when I’m patiently sitting in the left half of a form one way line and a bus has decided to go straight to the front beside me.

Give way to the bus; how f^&king hard is that?

Ha! Such venom, such spite! OK, now that I’ve reeled you in…

I did have a specific intersection in mind:

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=antill+st+philip+avenue&hl=en&ll=-35.247114,149.154336&spn=0.001361,0.002064&sll=-35.247052,149.153886&sspn=0.002723,0.004128&t=h&hq=philip+avenue&hnear=Antill+St,+Australian+Capital+Territory+2602&fll=-35.247114,149.154336&fspn=0.001361,0.002064&z=20

I’m sure a lot of people in Watson, Downer and those generally using Philip Ave / Antill St can attest that the roundabout at the intersection of those streets can become fairly annoying in the morning. A lot of traffic backs up along Philip Ave along Dickson College due to people ratrunning through Ainslie. The flow-on effect is that there’s generally a lot of traffic trying to turn left sound-bound from Antill into Philip; at times there is both traffic in the roundabout from that direction, as well as traffic continuing along Philip.

More than once I’ve been in the left lane, slowly edging forwards and being polite to let cars merge, when all of a sudden a bus continuing in the right hand lane will forcefully merge with little regard for traffic already ahead of it. The bus crosses the lines at the apex of the traffic island in the southeastern corner, both obstructing on-coming traffic and wondering just when it’s going to smash my front right quarter panel.

I imagine the bus driver is trying to avoid blocking traffic trying to go SW through the roundabout… the correct thing to do would be to wait on the NW corner until it’s clear to pass through the roundabout safely without 1) obstructing traffic 2) endangering traffic already in the merge lane.

So yes, I know how to merge, I know how to be polite, I think public transport is great, but I also know when bus drivers could (to paraphrase you) “learn to f^&king drive” in this and similar circumstances.

gooterz said :

Stuff the buses there are several places that need duplication.

Why are only parts of Athllon drive drive single lane, and why is there a forced turn at phillip?

Are you and gazket the same person? Can you give that to us in english please?

Stuff the buses there are several places that need duplication.

Why are only parts of Athllon drive drive single lane, and why is there a forced turn at phillip?

Alderney said :

Rule 77 only applies to a bus leaving a bus stop.

Merging is rule 149.

They have no ‘right’ to barge in in any other circumstance.

Interestingly, I’ve noticed that to enter these ‘bus lanes’ the bus needs to cross an unbroken line. At least they do at Athllon & Hindmarsh going towards Woden.

So, are they legally entitled to enter the lane?

77 Giving way to buses

(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, [b]or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if:
[b](a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a bus-stop bay[/b], and
(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating, and
(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.

Rule 77 applies in the above case, that is a bus leaving the far left side of the road, whether designated bus stop or not. Barging is rude of course but in a perfect world where all bus drivers indicated with notice and all non-bus drivers actually gave way as per the rule then I think the problem would solve itself.

Not sure on whether they are legally allowed to cross unbroken lines to enter into the bus lane, but if it’s the only way to physically move you bus into the lane is by doing just that then I would hazard a guess that… yes?

JC said :

That is not true. You do not need to give way to buses merging, normal merge rules apply, which is if the left lane clearly ends the left lane gives way to the continuing lane, if both lanes run into one (the more common form one lane style merge here in Canberra) the car in front has right of way.

Before I get jumped on replace the word car above with the word vehicle, because of course the vehicle in front has the right of way at our form one lanes.

teddyhb said :

The bus lanes end with a form one lane, if you cant handle a bus merging at a form one lane I think you might need to hand your license back in.

If you think its dangerous then you may need to learn how to identify hazards on the road before its at the “OMG I am next to a bus at a form one lane and now it we are at a merge! WTF do I do!!!” point

Half correct. Yes the bus lanes do normally end with a form one lane. But one issue the OP is raising, which I see almost daily is where the bus lane is clear but the normal lanes have a green and are moving but are slower off the mark.

Often you will see buses hurtling along their ‘clear lane’ forcing their way into the flow of traffic. When in reality when approaching a form one lane all vehicles need to be adjusting their speed to match the speed after the merge which in most cases means slowing down not powering on through. Of course it isn’t just buses who do this, but really it is not right for a 12T+ bus to be doing that.

Now that isn’t a reason to be handing back the licence.

basketofcat said :

So the buses and the rules quite clearly say that you’re to give way to a bus merging from left to right into existing traffic. What about the reverse, do buses have right of way merging right to left? I’ve been nearly clobbered on several occasions when I’m patiently sitting in the left half of a form one way line and a bus has decided to go straight to the front beside me.

That is not true. You do not need to give way to buses merging, normal merge rules apply, which is if the left lane clearly ends the left lane gives way to the continuing lane, if both lanes run into one (the more common form one lane style merge here in Canberra) the car in front has right of way.

The give way sign on the buses are ONLY to allow them to pull away from a stop. Refer to rule 77 of the national road rules.

77 Giving way to buses
(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if:
(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a busstop bay; and

(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating; and

(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.

Slightly different view but I think buses should be modified to have larger and more indicators along their sides. Most drivers are good, some don’t give enough notice but we could all benefit from more visible indicators when alongside them.

ScienceRules4:52 pm 05 Apr 13

Aeek said :

ScienceRules said :

I too have always been mystified by the wisdom of putting the slowest vehicles out in front of the rest of the traffic so they can then pull over and stuff everyone around a second time. Such are the vaguaries of our quaint little town council I guess.

Prejudiced much? Bus lanes are the same across Australia.

Well now I’m mystified as to my anti-bus prejudice. And here I was thinking that I was all modern and progressive. Time to scourge myself with salt encrusted cat-o-nine-tails. Or have a margarita. One of those…

KB1971 said :

This thred just proves how out licencing training system required work.

A person should me made to drive a selection of vehicles in their class of licence.

Say a C class licence, the vehicles range from 0kg to 4.5t, including combinations. A loaded 4.5t truck could potentially tow a trailer that weighs 4.5t, that is a cobination of 9t.

A learners should be made to drive a car (auto & manual), car trailer combination (& understand what the load limits for the vehicle are) and a small truck, complete with blind spots.

Then, just then, people would not be going “Why did that bus cut me off while I was sitting beside him? Didnt he see me?”

Sorry, first sentence should read; “This thread is a classic example of how our learner driver system requires overhaul.”

This thred just proves how out licencing training system required work.

A person should me made to drive a selection of vehicles in their class of licence.

Say a C class licence, the vehicles range from 0kg to 4.5t, including combinations. A loaded 4.5t truck could potentially tow a trailer that weighs 4.5t, that is a cobination of 9t.

A learners should be made to drive a car (auto & manual), car trailer combination (& understand what the load limits for the vehicle are) and a small truck, complete with blind spots.

Then, just then, people would not be going “Why did that bus cut me off while I was sitting beside him? Didnt he see me?”

I always give way to buses, for those of you who didnt know, im Canberra’s best driver…

When approaching a bus stop, and the bus has indicated right to suggest he is pulling out, i have no issues slowing dowm, flicking the headlights to let him know its all good to go…

My issue is with the cocks^cker bus drivers who indicate last minute and pull out with no regard to traffic i.e.look in side mirror, see car no more than 5 metres behind bus, f&ck the car, im pulling out, its my right of way.

Think their cool in their knee length shorts and shitty blue shirts…

peebus said :

Curious as to what happens with buses in this case considering their length. If you’re along side, say the front 1/4, of the bus, does the driver have to brake heavily and merge behind? Or does the bus slow down and let the car in given this would be the quicker option…?

Well if you’re along the front 1/4 of the bus but not in front of the bus, as in the nose of the bus is ahead of the nose of your car, then you are technically behind the bus and therefore must give way to merge.

Anyone with a drivers licence should be able to anticipate the size of the gap they will need to leave for a merging vehicle in front of them, and thus avoid having to “brake heavily and merge behind.”

what_the said :

The standard Canberra practice is to drive right up the side of the vehicle while approaching the merge lane then jam out on your brakes sending a cascade effect to the traffic behind stopping it completely.

This has to be one of the most frustrating practices on Canberra roads! See the F1L heading South onto Capital Circle from Commonwealth Ave any time there are more than 5 cars lined up in the left and middle lanes.

Tenpoints said :

Regardless of the attitude of the bus driver, they are covered by the following laws:
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforce/subordleg+179+2008+cd+0+N#pt.7-div.4-rule.77

Previously discussed here:
http://the-riotact.com/road-rule-reminder-77-give-way-to-buses-pulling-out-from-bus-stops/17450

Rule 77 only applies to a bus leaving a bus stop.

Merging is rule 149.

They have no ‘right’ to barge in in any other circumstance.

Interestingly, I’ve noticed that to enter these ‘bus lanes’ the bus needs to cross an unbroken line. At least they do at Athllon & Hindmarsh going towards Woden.

So, are they legally entitled to enter the lane?

peebus said :

Tenpoints said :

If there is a vehicle is in front of you at the form one lane then you must give way to that vehicle. This applies to all road vehicles and is irrespective of rule 77.

In other words, basic merging.

Curious as to what happens with buses in this case considering their length. If you’re along side, say the front 1/4, of the bus, does the driver have to brake heavily and merge behind? Or does the bus slow down and let the car in given this would be the quicker option…?

I don’t mean to complain – I have no problem with merging behind a bus (I’ve experienced the opposite side of the argument having utilised many buses in my time) – I’m just asking about the legalities in the given situations…

If the front of the bus is in front of your car at the merge point, the bus has the call.

peebus said :

Curious as to what happens with buses in this case considering their length. If you’re along side, say the front 1/4, of the bus, does the driver have to brake heavily and merge behind? Or does the bus slow down and let the car in given this would be the quicker option…?

If the front of the bus is ahead of the front of your car the bus has right of way at the merge. Also, if you pay attention to the road ahead you dont have to break heavily at the merge, you will have already given the bus enough room to merge in since you would know that you will soon be at a merge point.

Jim Jones said :

basketofcat said :

So the buses and the rules quite clearly say that you’re to give way to a bus merging from left to right into existing traffic. What about the reverse, do buses have right of way merging right to left? I’ve been nearly clobbered on several occasions when I’m patiently sitting in the left half of a form one way line and a bus has decided to go straight to the front beside me.

Give way to the bus; how f^&king hard is that?

The standard Canberra practice is to drive right up the side of the vehicle while approaching the merge lane then jam out on your brakes sending a cascade effect to the traffic behind stopping it completely.

Tenpoints said :

If there is a vehicle is in front of you at the form one lane then you must give way to that vehicle. This applies to all road vehicles and is irrespective of rule 77.

In other words, basic merging.

Curious as to what happens with buses in this case considering their length. If you’re along side, say the front 1/4, of the bus, does the driver have to brake heavily and merge behind? Or does the bus slow down and let the car in given this would be the quicker option…?

I don’t mean to complain – I have no problem with merging behind a bus (I’ve experienced the opposite side of the argument having utilised many buses in my time) – I’m just asking about the legalities in the given situations…

basketofcat said :

So the buses and the rules quite clearly say that you’re to give way to a bus merging from left to right into existing traffic. What about the reverse, do buses have right of way merging right to left? I’ve been nearly clobbered on several occasions when I’m patiently sitting in the left half of a form one way line and a bus has decided to go straight to the front beside me.

Give way to the bus; how f^&king hard is that?

basketofcat said :

So the buses and the rules quite clearly say that you’re to give way to a bus merging from left to right into existing traffic. What about the reverse, do buses have right of way merging right to left? I’ve been nearly clobbered on several occasions when I’m patiently sitting in the left half of a form one way line and a bus has decided to go straight to the front beside me.

If there is a vehicle is in front of you at the form one lane then you must give way to that vehicle. This applies to all road vehicles and is irrespective of rule 77.

In other words, basic merging.

So the buses and the rules quite clearly say that you’re to give way to a bus merging from left to right into existing traffic. What about the reverse, do buses have right of way merging right to left? I’ve been nearly clobbered on several occasions when I’m patiently sitting in the left half of a form one way line and a bus has decided to go straight to the front beside me.

Grail said :

Having the privilege of driving your private vehicle on roads paid for out of the public purse

And where did the money in the public purse come from, if not from the pockets of private people?

Grail said :

you should learn the road rules a little better, and perhaps improve on your ability to share public resources. The road is not there for you, it is there for everyone. Put aside your ego, learn to be a safer and more community minded driver.

I agree with the rest of your comment though.

ScienceRules said :

I too have always been mystified by the wisdom of putting the slowest vehicles out in front of the rest of the traffic so they can then pull over and stuff everyone around a second time. Such are the vaguaries of our quaint little town council I guess.

Prejudiced much? Bus lanes are the same across Australia.

ScienceRules12:17 pm 05 Apr 13

I too have always been mystified by the wisdom of putting the slowest vehicles out in front of the rest of the traffic so they can then pull over and stuff everyone around a second time. Such are the vaguaries of our quaint little town council I guess.

Madam Cholet said :

I think we all know that bus drivers are as previously stated by the editor of RA himself, ‘thugs’ and that they would use any means of getting ahead of the traffic.

I always give way to buses but I must admit that some can be rather aggressive at lane merges. Which I now know so I give them even more space and everyone’s happy.

I cannot see how those bus lanes are any different from a normal merge lane right after an intersection, which is a very common scenario in Canberra. The fact that one lane only contains buses has SFA to do with anything.

If you complain a bit more buses might get longer dedicated lanes and longer dedicated green lights. Personally, in this electronic age I don’t understand why buses and emergency vehicles can’t control the traffic lights remotely.

Madam Cholet11:36 am 05 Apr 13

I think we all know that bus drivers are as previously stated by the editor of RA himself, ‘thugs’ and that they would use any means of getting ahead of the traffic.

They only “push back in rather dangerously” because the selfish car drivers are not acknowledging the right of way the busses have over private traffic.

Having the privilege of driving your private vehicle on roads paid for out of the public purse, you should learn the road rules a little better, and perhaps improve on your ability to share public resources. The road is not there for you, it is there for everyone. Put aside your ego, learn to be a safer and more community minded driver.

gungsuperstar said :

Slllloooooooooooooooooooowww neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwws wwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekk.

Don’t people have more important things to think about? This is as stupid as the post about emergency service vehicles.

“Waaaah! A bus/fire trick/ambulance got a couple of spots in front of me! Won’t somebody think of the extra 15 seconds this is costing me?!”

Youre new here I take it?

gungsuperstar11:11 am 05 Apr 13

Slllloooooooooooooooooooowww neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwws wwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekk.

Don’t people have more important things to think about? This is as stupid as the post about emergency service vehicles.

“Waaaah! A bus/fire trick/ambulance got a couple of spots in front of me! Won’t somebody think of the extra 15 seconds this is costing me?!”

The bus lanes end with a form one lane, if you cant handle a bus merging at a form one lane I think you might need to hand your license back in.

If you think its dangerous then you may need to learn how to identify hazards on the road before its at the “OMG I am next to a bus at a form one lane and now it we are at a merge! WTF do I do!!!” point

Am I the only one who thinks these two issues are a dangerous practice?

……… Yes.

Are you serious?

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