22 October 2008

Canberra Marist College on Lateline!

| johnboy
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[First filed: October 20, 2008 @ 23:05]

Not good news for them.

Video to follow

Video now available, transcript to follow.

Now here’s a question for whichever local politicians are not transfixed by fear of pederasts…

Will they allow a school with a history of proven child sexual abuse, and no known body responsible for its continuing behaviour, to continue to take children into its care next year?

Or is this an injustice that can be tolerated as long as it mollifies the Catholic vote?

Once more for the slow of uptake.

It is a proven fact that children in the care of this school have been sexually abused. There is no entity taking responsibility for this abuse. More children are being put into this school’s care next year. This is, apparently, an acceptable state of affairs for our elected leaders.

UPDATED: For those who can’t do video the transcript is now online.

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Clown Killer6:20 am 25 Oct 08

If the intervention catches any perpetrators, or possibly already has, why would we know about it already?

The number is eight. That’s confirmed victims.

The Marists don’t own the school?

I understand that upon the withdrawal of the Marist mission at Marist College Rosalie at the end of this year(a stone’s throw from Bris CBD by the way…how’s that for forward planning?) they will have at their disposal the school’s playing fields located at Fig Tree Pocket in the western suburbs,worth between $20 -$25m. The working class parents of that school community raised the money to pay for that land in the late 50’s.

Another of their Bris metropolitan mission schools likely to undergo yet another transformation in the near future….and who owns the playing fields there? Exactly what land attached was bequeathed to them?

Add to that the dairy farm they sold on the Gold Coast at Currumbin in the late 80’s as well as the neighbouring farm bequeathed to them….and the sale of land up at Mt Tamborine in the Gold Coast hinterland.

Then there are the many ‘retreat’ properties, northern NSW etc.

If I was them, I’d be acting dumb about owning the school, cutting my losses, retreating from Canberra and avoiding the payout.

Sorry to all the good folk at the RiotAct but you are operating in a very small frame (no disrespect to the abused)and it is a very sorry tale indeed. All the same, look after yourselves as best you can, put your trust and support into the legal representatives and conserve your personal energy for your loved ones.

Peterh: You’re trying to argue with Passy.
Do not feed the troll.

And for people who want a critical assessment of the IOntervention, don’t ask Passy, go find someone who has worked with it.
There are hundreds of them around town.

Passy said :

I think sexual abuse of children by catholic teachers is not an aberration. It is systemic, something that springs from the very philosophy and organisational structure of the Church.

The response needs to be systemic. It won’t be.

Our Governments invaded the Northern Territory using the argument that they were protecting the children. This was the excuse for this anti-black, anti-land rights attack on aboriginal communities.

As far as I know not one abuse charge has been laid as a consequence of the invasion.

But if it is OK to invade black communities in the Northern territory to “save” black kids, why don’t we do the same for saving white kids in catholic schools?

Or could it be the Catholic Church is in Australia a white institution and powerful?

bollocks.

the intervention in the NT is not to take away land rights or be anti-black, it is to show a presence in these communities to prevent the abuse that has been perpetrated on children. If the intervention catches any perpetrators, or possibly already has, why would we know about it already? The staff committed to the intervention in the communities are not invaders. Nor are the majority of them white. Just another attempt by you to stir the pot. well done.

If we are to allow an intervention in our society to prevent the abuse of children, we need to look at a method that catches these perpetrators prior to their exposure to children at risk.

I have mentioned genesys testing, and a lot of people argue that this is a breach of the individual’s human rights. You are right. it is.

But i would still like to have some sort of safeguard in place to stop this behavior. what else can we do to prevent the destruction of a child’s innocence and trusting an authority figure?

tylersmayhem10:54 am 24 Oct 08

@BerraBoy: excellent. Thanks for the update. About time this happened!

Look for an article on this issue in the Canberra Times on Saturday.

Also, Time For Healing ACT has just put out a press release advising they are seeking a Federal Gov’t inquiry into the funding of Marist College for the past 40yrs. The issue is how the Federal Gov’t can provide taxpayer funding to a school where there is no legal authority in charge of, or even known at, the school. Worse still, the founders of Marist (who maintain a presence, and even live at, the schools premises) have happily accepted Federal Gov’t funding for the school for 40 yrs. They have recently stated in court on several occasion’s now that they have no idea who has ever been in charge of the school. Ms Julia Gillard, over to you…

Back on topic:

If the College claims that the Order do not run the school, the Order are not involved in the administration of the College, and the Order are not responsible for the school, but the cheques from students-fees (and any incoming payments from other organisations which get made to the school) end up in Order’s coffers…

1) Why does the College Bursar give money to the Order, and
2) what would the impact of a fully-independent audit of College Accounts be on the administration of the school?
3) How long could the school survive in a cashflow crisis?

Anyone get the feeling there may be a rush of teachers asking for payment advances?

tylersmayhem10:11 am 23 Oct 08

Hmmm, this post has certainly take a turn for the worse.

I think sexual abuse of children by catholic teachers is not an aberration. It is systemic, something that springs from the very philosophy and organisational structure of the Church.

The response needs to be systemic. It won’t be.

Our Governments invaded the Northern Territory using the argument that they were protecting the children. This was the excuse for this anti-black, anti-land rights attack on aboriginal communities.

As far as I know not one abuse charge has been laid as a consequence of the invasion.

But if it is OK to invade black communities in the Northern territory to “save” black kids, why don’t we do the same for saving white kids in catholic schools?

Or could it be the Catholic Church is in Australia a white institution and powerful?

Sleaz274 at #126: Did you read the bit pogroms not being cool?

buddingjourno said :

not that it is enough, but hopefuly kostka will get his fair share of abuse behind bars.

Abuse is abuse be it of a child in school or a child molester in gaol, both are a crime and a denial of human rights. A just society has an obligation to protect everyone from abuse.

Any organisation with ethics would not be involved or allow their legal team to enter into the position of non accountability which Marist appears to have done.

tylersmayhem said :


Again, where are the lines drawn? Or do we become a “Gattaca” type of civilisation where EVERYONE is registered, blood type and psych tested “just in case”? At what cost to our state of mind and well being?

considering that i have an extra chromosome, I would be on the psychotic axe murderer list in seconds.

and as i work, listening to alice’s restaurant, there would be ways to beat the system….

tylersmayhem1:18 pm 22 Oct 08

Perhaps another way to look at it is to impose the same stringent checks performed on the APS / ADF new starters for clearance levels. These checks go far beyond standard police checks.

I’m wondering on the topic of these tests and/or clearances, how much consideration has been given to costs? To get APS clearances completed, there is a lot of down time for the candidates (even when successful) while the process works it’s way through. Not to mention the cost of each clearance going into the thousands.

I obtained my clearance recently, after about 5 months of restricted duty (additional cost to the employer). My mind boggles to think of the monetary cost for testing everyone who has contact with children in their profession or volunteering.

Again, where are the lines drawn? Or do we become a “Gattaca” type of civilisation where EVERYONE is registered, blood type and psych tested “just in case”? At what cost to our state of mind and well being?

tylersmayhem said :

On the topic of psychometric testing – I think we as a society need to be very careful here! While I understand the theory behind using these tests, and if they were fool proof, then hey happy days. but where do we draw the line? What happens if a test not accurate, and a teacher, carer, volunteer is cast out and recorded as a “questionable character”?

Will everyone in a community be tested to find out who the “risks” are? Where do we draw the line?

Maybe I’m crazy, but I think adding psychometric testing to the mix could cause a worse psychological imbalance than we already have i.e. paranoia and the over protection of our children. I do understand and support those parents who have been subjected to abuse, and their uncontrollable need to bundle their little ones up in cotton wool, I really do! And I do understand the point of, better to be over protective than have an abuse child. But I would also like to have a child who experiences the world in a non-over protected environment and without a feeling of paranoia. Again, another fine line which is hard to draw, or even decide on.

psychometric testing should be handled by professionals. the testing regime is performed by psychologists. the results may be shared with the individual, but no-one else can see the results, without the individual’s consent. All that the employer sees is a line in a report saying “candidate is acceptable / unacceptable”.If the employer wishes to drill down to the reason why the candidate is unacceptable, they need your consent. I am pretty sure that the numbers of people who have nothing to hide would give their consent.

Perhaps another way to look at it is to impose the same stringent checks performed on the APS / ADF new starters for clearance levels. These checks go far beyond standard police checks.

avoid psych checks initially, but have it as an option if a discrepancy is found. (not a small discrepancy, but something serious – an example would be a blip whereby moral compass was discerned to be lacking. Understanding the difference between scolding and hitting a child is sometimes not easy to discover until they have hurt a littlie.

I failed my genesys test when applying for work for the Coles group. I was asked to consent to my potential employer viewing my results, after I did. I scored badly on mathematical understanding – ability to quickly solve complex maths problems. I consented, and was employed. (they gave me a calculator)

another company uncovered that I was prone to fits of rage, and high anxiety. still got the job. was working on my own, waaay away from anyone else.

Oh, that is ironic!! I’ve just sat down to write to some of these people. I’ll post some of the results when I get done in case anybody wants to do something similar.

For any of you trying to email the school, feel free to reference a few of their “Key Values” that they claim to uphold and pass on to students.

We hold that certain standards of behaviour, attitude and presentation are essential if the College is to work and flourish. These gospel values are the foundation for respect, fairness and a sense of care and safety across the school community.
We believe that teenagers have an enormous capacity to absorb new experiences and that as a staff we have a duty to harness this facility so that they can grow spiritually, intellectually, morally and socially.
We are committed to being open and transparent in all dimensions of the school’s life.

tylersmayhem @ 142: sigh. Having seen how it can work in other industries if it is implemented as part of a well-designed package of controls, I don’t share your paranoia, but again, I’m not hung up on it. It’s really about having a targeted set of controls. If psych testing is part of that, I think that’s better, but there’s lots of procedural stuff that can be implemented at very minor cost to the taxpayer (since it’s really all about designing and implementing work rules).

I am not sure that this is about wrapping kids in cotton wool. I actually think that part of the package of controls would include education where kids would be given appropriate knowledge about what sort of things can happen, and do some role-playing around how to react when that happens. Far from cotton wool, this is about strengthening their “immune systems” to fight abuse if and when it does occur.

Anyway, have a great day everyone. It is has been great discussing this issue with you all. I’m bowing out of this thread now – too much work on plate and am falling behind.

tylersmayhem10:29 am 22 Oct 08

Sorry VicePope but a legal right does not equal a moral right, especially for a religious organsation. Some of the victims can’t live ‘normal’ lives due to the abuse they suffered.

Spot on BerraBoy – put much better that I could ever try to. I often agree with you VicePope, but not on this one dude!

tylersmayhem10:27 am 22 Oct 08

On the topic of psychometric testing – I think we as a society need to be very careful here! While I understand the theory behind using these tests, and if they were fool proof, then hey happy days. but where do we draw the line? What happens if a test not accurate, and a teacher, carer, volunteer is cast out and recorded as a “questionable character”?

Will everyone in a community be tested to find out who the “risks” are? Where do we draw the line?

Maybe I’m crazy, but I think adding psychometric testing to the mix could cause a worse psychological imbalance than we already have i.e. paranoia and the over protection of our children. I do understand and support those parents who have been subjected to abuse, and their uncontrollable need to bundle their little ones up in cotton wool, I really do! And I do understand the point of, better to be over protective than have an abuse child. But I would also like to have a child who experiences the world in a non-over protected environment and without a feeling of paranoia. Again, another fine line which is hard to draw, or even decide on.

tylersmayhem10:10 am 22 Oct 08

Not defending Marist Brothers, just asking the question about what the end game is meant to be from this.

The end game is simple…Marist MUST admit and take responsibility for what happened there, rather than hiding behind legal technicalities. While those who abused the children are no longer on these scene, the RIGHT thing to do if for the school to try and make things right, not avoid doing so.

The pain and bad reputation that Marist is currently enduring is of their own making…now…not in the past.

Thanks, as always Granny and to everybody else that support the victims against the way the Marist order are trying to shirk their responsibilities in this terrible case. They took a vow of poverty yet they fight to protect their bank balance rather than help out the victims of their irresponsibiliy or incompetance. Yes, victims can gain some satisfaction from seeing their abusers either gaoled or dead but many need further assistance just to live and survive.

How can you help? There are a range of ways:
A) Continue to support the victims publically and call openly for the Marist Order to accept responsibility and stop trying to shift blame in court;
B) Ring or e-mail the Marist Headmaster (the address is on their website) and tell him how you feel about what the order is doing and the damage they are doing to the school;
C) Call the local and Federal Education Ministers asking what they intend to do. For the Federal Minister demand that all funding to the school be stopped until past and future ownership of the school is legally established; and
D) Call your newly elected MLA and vent your anger.

On this last point, Brendan Smythe is an ex-marist student who trades heavily on this with the school community. His silence on this case despite being a ‘community leader’ is deafening.

Again many thanks Granny!

How can we help, berraboy68?

mr grumpy said :

berraboy68, do you still have support group meets?

Certainly do Mr Grumpy. Contact me at Timeforhealingact@gmail.com

Number 14 by Jessieduck told me to shutup. That’s not very nice on a right-of-reply forum. “And plenty of bad things happen at State schools too” … good point, but there was no comparisons happening on the posts up to then. Do I have to shut up because the truth of knowingly sending your children into a KNOWN (not guessed at) high risk situation is in fact deeply upsetting to you? I was trying to make the point that the old “one finger pointing leaves four pointing back” may very well apply.
Number 36 by nambucco .. you got pissed as well, yet you state you are exercising some due diligence against the high risk and are prepared to take action, but STILL put the kids in there! The wife is a catholic, I think you said …

Also to Vicepope,

A legal defence is one thing, but stated positions have consequences.

If the school wishes to try and claim in a court that it has no responsible body then both Government and community should take them at their word and act accordingly.

If the school dislikes that consequence then perhaps a different defence would be best for them?

berraboy68, do you still have support group meets?

For what my 2c is worth, I’d prefer a system where wrong doing is found out and wrong doers suffer consequences to one where innocent people have their lives ruined for the failings of a test.

Marist’s systemic dodging of consequence is IMHO a bigger problem than the already huge issue of child abuse in their care. But it’s a near run thing.

VicePope said :

Whatever else they get, the victims already have the recognition (through the conviction of Chute) that wrong was done to them.

Sorry VicePope but a legal right does not equal a moral right, especially for a religious organsation. Some of the victims can’t live ‘normal’ lives due to the abuse they suffered. Recognition of the abuse by sentencing Kostka and Lyons topping himself is one thing, acceptance of a broken system by those responsible and provision of financial assistance to help them live comfortable (note: not affluent) lives is only fair. The Marist and especially those in positions of responsibility had been told abuses were occurring at the school (sorry, it’s a fact). They chose not to act and in some cases actively cover the abuses up. Now there’s money at risk, they’re fighting to the hilt. What a nice way for a religious order to act. Something about a camel and the eye of a needle come to mind….

sorry vice pope not poope

…and the public is entitled to an opinion on the matter… and to voice it… so here we are!

I disagree Vicepope when the institution itself repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly is demonstrated to commit evil acts then the institution itself becomes evil. Maybe the Nazis should have their day in court for every Jewish “alleged” murder committed (just the most obvious example I can think of).

While taking your point about this case in isolation the vast picture of the catholic church’s conduct surely allows us as noble citizens to cast some fairly hefty stones.

I like “weird”threads VicePoope, been wearing them since i got out of marist uniform.IMHO the vics deserve better than recognition,the perps need shooting and the deniers eternity in purgatory

But realistically their technical legal defence, does not exist in isolation in court.
The general public hears about it, and their reputation suffers.

A lawyer may think it is great, and it may save them big bikkies.
Their PR person would never have recommended it, and it is bound to lose them ongoing $ in future enrolments, and the value of their brand for years to come.

VicePope said :

…as in this thread, the argument becomes consumed by those who want simply to soapbox opinions on things like religion generally.

Yep – that’s pretty much the RiotACT – you *ARE* in the right place…

VicePope said :

…But the proper forum is a court …

Agreed…

I’ll add that to my list of evidence that the catholic church is the single most evil institution ever to be created by man.

For those with the stomach there is a great (wrong word but anyway) documentary called “Deliver Us From Evil” watch it and avail yourselves of knowledge this is not either isolated or a one off but a systemic cancer of the catholic organisation and they are spending billions to sweep it under the carpet and silence victims while doing nothing to fix their own culture.

May they burn in the hell they so fervently believe in.

For my part being an atheist, and therefore not believing in hell and this is the only life we get to play with, during the next catholic convention lets lock them in a big church bolt the doors and burn it to the ground. Nothing wrong with medieval retribution for an organisation stuck in the Dark Ages.

“Deliver us from evil” watch it

This is a thread gone weird. Yup, there were incidents years ago. One perpetrator is dead and the other is in gaol. Some of the victims are suing as is their right. Marist, or really its insurer, is running a technical defence that is not a ridiculous reach (see the HC decision in Lepore/Samin), as is its right.

The proper forum for the plaintiffs, and more to the point, their lawyer, to run the arguments is in court, not in a one-sided media presentation. What is being done is, to some extent, an extra-curial tactic to try to force a settlement by bad-mouthing the defendants. It’s practically guaranteed to be ineffective because, as in this thread, the argument becomes consumed by those who want simply to soapbox opinions on things like religion generally. To the extent it’s a judgment call by the plaintiff’s lawyer, it’s one for which he should be responsible. Many would see it differently, with any defence that can be demonstrated to be dodgy knocked over by the court with discredit and likely further costs against the defendants.

With all that said, the victims are entitled to seek justice. But the proper forum is a court and, if there are obstacles there, maybe the path to damages will be too hard. Whatever else they get, the victims already have the recognition (through the conviction of Chute) that wrong was done to them.

@ Sepi @ #121: agreed – all points (and exactly what I said – though not so clearly/concisely perhaps?)

However, I do think the distinction between the school itself (which was and still is a good school) and the organisation now refusing to acknowledge responsibility (or its lawyers) needs to be made quite clear… (though school did handle the whole thing *very* poorly indeed; this is not a reflection of the educational outcomes for thousands of boys who passed through the corridors over the umm… many years)

@ Berra Boy #119: don’t need teaching quals to be on school grounds, and one would think that “Religious Ministry” (in a Catholic school) would be well within the capacity of a member of a religious order (of any sort). However, they certainly should be Police Checked and have any arising allegations of misconduct independently examined – and *acted upon* should they be upheld. My understanding is that offenders normally “build” to molestation (etc) through other indecent acts (again a reason I would be prepared to support compulsory registration).

Interestingly, we were told early last year that any visitor coming into our classrooms must be police checked prior to their visit (I believe this to be an Dept. Policy). That seems to me to be the minimum that should be done – especially for those with ongoing contact with students.

BerraBoy68 said :

As with anybody else without teaching qualifications, Brothers should not be allowed on school premises. Unless a Brother has a teaching degree (a theology degree doesn’t count) they should be barred from the premises, particularly as they don’t apparently own the schools as previously thought.

BTW: Brendan Smyth, our recently re-elected MLA likes to tout himself as a proud Marist boy to all and sundry. Where is his voice in all this, or isn’t there any votes in seeking the truth?

there is also an oldboy in the local media circus…. should i call him a hack?..who is i feel silent on this?

re 108 – Marist isn’t being blamed for the problem of sexual abuse – that can happen anywhere unfortunately.

They are being blamed for allowing the circumstances for abuse to go on for decades when they should have been able to suspect things were not right. And they are being blamed for not dealing with the victims at all well afterwards – again for decades, and even now.

Their latest game of pretending not to be at fault as they don’t really run their own school is just bizarre – and very insulting to anyone involved.

LOL @ Granny @ #117: obvious, but funny 😀

As with anybody else without teaching qualifications, Brothers should not be allowed on school premises. Unless a Brother has a teaching degree (a theology degree doesn’t count) they should be barred from the premises, particularly as they don’t apparently own the schools as previously thought.

BTW: Brendan Smyth, our recently re-elected MLA likes to tout himself as a proud Marist boy to all and sundry. Where is his voice in all this, or isn’t there any votes in seeking the truth?

Granny said :

mr grumpy said :

help me here szeretetta, are they accountable to any authority?

Well, they’re obviously not accountable to God ….

need a higher authority please

mr grumpy said :

help me here szeretetta, are they accountable to any authority?

Well, they’re obviously not accountable to God ….

BerraBoy68 said :

FFS! The Headmaster denied in court recently he doesn’t even knows who pays him – who wouldn’t know who pays their salary?! I would suggest other law suits waiting to happen are the families who believed they were being taught by the Marist Brothers (due to their ‘then’ advertised trusteeship of the school who apparently actually weren’t).

I was taken out of class, taken driving and bought lunch etc.. by Lyons over an extended period. Nobody in a position to do so ever asked why he was taking me out of class or out of the school grounds. I idolised this guy thinking he was doing me a favour following the death of my brother when I was in yr 10. Now I find out that was his modus operandi for raping kids after my experience.

Do I feel guilt that he may have realised how easy it was from his experiences with me to get kids out of school? Hell yes. DO I blame all Marist teachers? Hell NO! I still say 99% are, and were, GOLD. The real and simple issue here is that a religious organisation is seeking to avoid losing lots of money by telling lies. The Marist Brothers have lied through their teeth in this matter and continue to do so – this is a fact. Do I still recommend the school to prospective parents as I once did? NO. While I am sure the current teachers are excellent (as are 99% of those past) how can you trust an organisation (i.e. the Brothers)that so willingly go against their own teachings of honesty, truth and Justice to deny any responsibility.

Finally, until this matter is laid to rest once and for all, the Brothers are not being fair to current of future students.

sidorko could ask groundskeeper willy, the scots always know where the money comes from

bite me said :

No accountability = no faith

Interesting fact. I did the maths on this one, and concur…

Also: I would support any action to seek the truth about the organisation funding (and therefore legally responsible for) Marist College, Canberra… or to help bring pressure upon the ACT Government to do so!

Shirking their responsibility in this way undercuts all the valuable “Christian Values” lessons in their entire philosophy…

szeretetta said :

peterh said :

what i don’t understand is why the Catholic Education Office hasn’t stepped in and investigated the goings on for a school that falls under their jurisdiction.

Marist is not under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Education office – they are a Congregational school and thus operate independently of the CEO.

http://www.ceo.cg.catholic.edu.au/schools/act_congregational.htm

help me here szeretetta, are they accountable to any authority?

No acountability= no faith

Oh, and i have never supported (or understood the reason for) compulsory teacher registration – but some (thoughtfully put) arguments in this thread have convinced me. All teachers (at least in the public system) are required to have police records checked anyhow, but having a location where reports of inappropriate actions (of any sort) could be registered would certainly stop the “we didn’t know” arguments… (as long as these were substantive claims that stood up to some form of independent investigation/legal action).

peterh said :

what i don’t understand is why the Catholic Education Office hasn’t stepped in and investigated the goings on for a school that falls under their jurisdiction.

Marist is not under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Education office – they are a Congregational school and thus operate independently of the CEO.

http://www.ceo.cg.catholic.edu.au/schools/act_congregational.htm

FFS! The Headmaster denied in court recently he doesn’t even knows who pays him – who wouldn’t know who pays their salary?! I would suggest other law suits waiting to happen are the families who believed they were being taught by the Marist Brothers (due to their ‘then’ advertised trusteeship of the school who apparently actually weren’t). I was taken out of class, taken driving and bought lunch etc.. by Lyons over an extended period. Nobody in a position to do so ever asked why he was taking me out of class or out of the school grounds. I idolised this guy thinking he was doing me a favour following the death of my brother when I was in yr 10. Now I find out that was his modus operandi for raping kids after my experience. Do I feel guilt that he may have realised how easy it was from his experiences with me to get kids out of school? Hell yes. DO I blame all Marist teachers? Hell NO! I still say 99% are, and were, GOLD. The real and simple issue here is that a religious organisation is seeking to avoid losing lots of money by telling lies. The Marist Brothers have lied through their teeth in this matter and continue to do so – this is a fact. Do I still recommend the school to prospective parents as I once did? NO. While I am sure the current teachers are excellent (as are 99% of those past) how can you trust an organisation (i.e. the Brothers)that so willingly go against their own teachings of honesty, truth and Justice to deny any responsibility.

Finally, until this matter is laid to rest once and for all, the Brothers are not being fair to current of future students.

I’ll tell you why a school like Marist should remain open – because it provides a good education and supporting community to hundreds of students in the ACT, just like most of the other schools in Canberra. You simply cannot let the entire reputation of a school, or any organisation rest on the actions of a few (just like in the recent “Banks Scouter” thread) bad seeds.

I absolutely agree that their funding needs to be threatened until they fess up – and contend that this is simply legal wrangling – a way of avoiding huge settlements (can anyone say “James Hardie”).

I am a former student of Marist (there around the time events in question occurred – though never affected directly) and also a former Scout and Scouter (and also now a teacher and volunteer in various community organisations). I am absolutely sick of hearing the “close it” arguments being bandied about ’cause some of you get on your moral high-horses. Bad seeds exist. Whilst saying “deal with it” is too simplistic – we have to actively eliminate the opportunities for “kiddie fiddlers”. I honestly believe that the school has taken steps (although too little too late for victims in this case) to minimise the chances of things happening again. However they were a long way from handling the situation appropriately at the time, and their current behaviour is an absolute disgrace to the Catholic Church and the organisations under its banner. (Interesting that if they’d acted appropriately at the time, the whole **civil action** probably would never have occured!)

However, for so many of you to simply state that the school should be closed is incredulous! Is it possible to say this won’t happen again at Marist? No. Is it possible to say the same thing won’t happen again in any educational institution/organisation (or anywhere else kids might be)? NO!!!

I absolutely agree with threats to remove funding for Marist until the *legal* situation is sorted (and certainly following through on the threat should it be required). Marist should “Get some nuts” and own up to their responsibility. But the argument of blaming the school for a problem that exists across the wider spectrum of society as a whole is simply BULLOCKS!!!

Apparently there are no operators of the school … except when govt. funding is offered.

Well that was all very interesting….

What happens if a child in the playground at this school has some (predictable due to behaviour and history) accident, or is assaulted (by others who have made specific threats against him), or aliens take him ( following warnings from a reputable source) while those in charge and who are charged with the care of our babies are aware that accident risk or potential assault or alien abduction is imminent do nothing?

The ramifications of the stand by the operators of this school surely go beyond this horrible issue and create a situation that no parent of a current student could be happy with.

mr grumpy was at this college for 9 years.It was drummed into me from day one who the “entity” running the joint was, we should feel priviledged that we could bask in the glory that was the marist brothers.That they should say they won`t take responsibility for kostka and lyons paedophiliacal???abuses is hypocritical. I even had to own up to misdemeanours even if innocent.Then again you can be an a-hole monday to saturday and confess on sunday.Could it be that they won`t take responsibility for these two because this is the tip of the iceberg?All that aside,if the Marist brothers”Trust” is a non-entity, i wouldn`t be in any hurry to send my boys there.I don`t know “Michael” but my mate DAK(ex- student) reckons he does.Both of us are with you mate.

Bungle said :

Maybe we could test all of society and those that fail be sent away to special camps.

That’s not what anyone has suggested and frankly it’s disingenuous to suggest so.

Clown Killer said :

Like a lot of businesses, we no longer use psychometric testing. Simply because of the fact of it’s established track record of delivering the wrong candidate along with the reality that there’s a myriad of resources available to coach people through the process who should otherwise fear it, make it fundamentally irrelevant in a situation where you’re looking for key people to take on sensitive roles.

There are different types of psych testing. Most have not been subjected to validation. However, there are various tests (e.g. The Vienna Test System, which includes psychomotor skills tests) which have been subjected to laboratory validation. Additionally, there are those tests which have question sets that have been specifically designed to detect and correct for people who are trying to diddle their result. They should always be administered by a suitably qualified psychologist who is accredited to deliver the test. It’s a case of “oils ain’t oils”, but I can assure you that the tests that one of my former employers uses are very effective. They spent an awful lot of time and money validating their effectiveness.

Maybe we could test all of society and those that fail be sent away to special camps.

Clown Killer6:55 pm 21 Oct 08

Like a lot of businesses, we no longer use psychometric testing. Simply because of the fact of it’s established track record of delivering the wrong candidate along with the reality that there’s a myriad of resources available to coach people through the process who should otherwise fear it, make it fundamentally irrelevant in a situation where you’re looking for key people to take on sensitive roles.

Ari said :

Methinks Radonezh has a pecuniary interest in psychometric testing that has not been declared.

No. I wish. I’d be a millionaire if I did.

But I did have something to do with it and a risk-based task analysis in a previous life and a safety-critical industry where it was very effectively utilized (and still is). No, I didn’t run the tests (I’m not a psychologist) but I was involved in the overall project. Again, it’s just one technique that needs to be used with a whole suite of other risk controls. Not a silver bullet, and you could achieve a result without it, but it just wouldn’t be anywhere near as good a result.

ns said :

radonezh said :

Granny, people undertake aptitude and capability tests to do all sorts of things. For example, we accept the fact that police are psychometrically screened for their jobs so that they don’t crazy one day with their service revolvers. Whether you like it or not, this happens. They are tested to see if they are psychologically fit and proper people to do their job. If they fail the test, they don’t get the job because it has been identified that it is possible to test for certain characteristics, and screen people for certain positions based on their suitability for the job.

Yeah but how do you know it’s working? We still have police out there who clearly aren’t the proper people to do their jobs and are out there breaking the law (whether that’s domestic violence, drugs, traffic infringements, bribery, corruption, trafficking etc.). Your testing may have excluded others who wouldn’t have perpetuated any crimes at all and been great police.

Psych testing is only one risk control in a series of risk controls. It isn’t a silver bullet and I never said it was, but it is much more effective than not having anything, and many industries have decided that it’s worth doing.

I’m sorry I was mean to you, radonezh. I just answer people because I want to, not ’cause I have to.

Granny said :

You know, it’s people like you who are really smart, but it’s so wasted because you’re also so superior and arrogant.

Newsflash, radonezh. I am not answerable to you in any way shape or form. I may or may not choose to discuss a topic with you. I may state my opinion, but not my reason. I may do the opposite. I may crack a joke. I may laugh with you. I may laugh at you. As long as I don’t tick off Johnboy and Jazz I can do whatever the hell I want.

Frankly, I don’t like you. I don’t respect you, and I don’t wish to engage with you.

Ok. Fair enough – I’m not here for the popularity vote. But for the record I wasn’t at all attempting to attack you personally and the I was merely arguing my point in an area that I have strong views. If that is arrogance then I apologize.

Methinks Radonezh has a pecuniary interest in psychometric testing that has not been declared.

radonezh said :

Granny, people undertake aptitude and capability tests to do all sorts of things. For example, we accept the fact that police are psychometrically screened for their jobs so that they don’t crazy one day with their service revolvers. Whether you like it or not, this happens. They are tested to see if they are psychologically fit and proper people to do their job. If they fail the test, they don’t get the job because it has been identified that it is possible to test for certain characteristics, and screen people for certain positions based on their suitability for the job.

Yeah but how do you know it’s working? We still have police out there who clearly aren’t the proper people to do their jobs and are out there breaking the law (whether that’s domestic violence, drugs, traffic infringements, bribery, corruption, trafficking etc.). Your testing may have excluded others who wouldn’t have perpetuated any crimes at all and been great police.

Like capsicum spray police dude. Now that’s a huge success story for all this psychometric testing. It must be true!

Granny said :

What about physical and emotional abuse? Why stop there? Aren’t we aiming for the root issue of life, the universe and everything?

Granny, people undertake aptitude and capability tests to do all sorts of things. For example, we accept the fact that police are psychometrically screened for their jobs so that they don’t crazy one day with their service revolvers. Whether you like it or not, this happens. They are tested to see if they are psychologically fit and proper people to do their job. If they fail the test, they don’t get the job because it has been identified that it is possible to test for certain characteristics, and screen people for certain positions based on their suitability for the job.

I contend that teaching (or any sort of work in schools that necessitates one-on-one interaction with children) is no different. You seem to be arguing that it is not fair or proper to subject job applicants to proper scrutiny on the basis of their suitability to the task prior to hiring them. I contend that it definitely is right and proper to do so, and not just on their academic results, but on their psychological suitability to the task. I wouldn’t for example, give preference to a subject who has a tendency to be violent, or exhibited psychopathic characteristics in a psychometric test. Mind you, I take your point about the privacy issue, but hey, there are some jobs where this issue is managed in a reasonable fashion right now.

You know, it’s people like you who are really smart, but it’s so wasted because you’re also so superior and arrogant.

Newsflash, radonezh. I am not answerable to you in any way shape or form. I may or may not choose to discuss a topic with you. I may state my opinion, but not my reason. I may do the opposite. I may crack a joke. I may laugh with you. I may laugh at you. As long as I don’t tick off Johnboy and Jazz I can do whatever the hell I want.

Frankly, I don’t like you. I don’t respect you, and I don’t wish to engage with you.

Granny said :

What about physical and emotional abuse? Why stop there? Aren’t we aiming for the root issue of life, the universe and everything?

Hmmm, well in that case I’m in. I can have my ex convicted of the emtional abuse he perpetuated on me and stop him doing it to anyone else. He can die a single, lonely, bitter man reflecting on how his evil actions were foiled by testing.

Then again, why stop with justhim. I’d get my brothers tested too. And maybe those former friends who stabbed me in the back. Maybe my colleagues too. And although my neighbours seem really nice, who knows what they’re capable of. They should be tested too.

radonezh said :

In some families, where there is a tradition of being a train driver, failure of the exams can lead to social stigma, but at the end of the day, the company does not want millions of dollars of investment to wind up in a ditch in the middle of the night if it can be avoided.

It’s somewhat less of a stigma for an aspiring train driver to be labelled “Joe doesn’t have the same level of hand-eye coordination as his dad” rather than the potential bus driver’s “Joe is clearly a paedophile, the bus company wouldn’t leave him alone with our kids … now where are the empties we need for those Molotov cocktails?”

Ari said :

radonezh said :

Again, anonymization techniques can (and do) make such techniques stigma-free (unless of course the person actually IS an offender). It’s all in the set up.

Scenario: In a town of 500, a local bloke (Mr A) has just become unemployed after being retrenched by the bus company in a nearby town. He holds the relevant class of licence to drive a public bus.

The local bus company advertises in the local paper for a driver for the twice-daily school bus service.

The company eventually employs a person who is not suitably qualified (Mr B) and pays for Mr B to do the necessary training to gain the necessary class of licence.

Mr A is still known to be looking for work.

You can’t be anonymous is some situations.

This situation currently arises in the railways where local train crew are drawn from very small remote communities, however psychometric testing has been a part of job selection for at least 8 years. In some families, where there is a tradition of being a train driver, failure of the exams can lead to social stigma, but at the end of the day, the company does not want millions of dollars of investment to wind up in a ditch in the middle of the night if it can be avoided.

Granny said :

Wow! I’ve never been called a civil rights feral bolshie before either ….

RiotACT has been such an education on a personal level. Not quite as good as bitter and crusty, though! That’s my personal favourite so far.

So are you going to test parents and aunts and uncles and friends of the family and grandparents etc as well?

Glad you liked it 🙂

No. They are not employees. You still haven’t answered my question about what your solution to the issue is.

radonezh said :

Again, anonymization techniques can (and do) make such techniques stigma-free (unless of course the person actually IS an offender). It’s all in the set up.

Scenario: In a town of 500, a local bloke (Mr A) has just become unemployed after being retrenched by the bus company in a nearby town. He holds the relevant class of licence to drive a public bus.

The local bus company advertises in the local paper for a driver for the twice-daily school bus service.

The company eventually employs a person who is not suitably qualified (Mr B) and pays for Mr B to do the necessary training to gain the necessary class of licence.

Mr A is still known to be looking for work.

You can’t be anonymous is some situations.

What about physical and emotional abuse? Why stop there? Aren’t we aiming for the root issue of life, the universe and everything?

Wow! I’ve never been called a civil rights feral bolshie before either ….

RiotACT has been such an education on a personal level. Not quite as good as bitter and crusty, though! That’s my personal favourite so far.

So are you going to test parents and aunts and uncles and friends of the family and grandparents etc as well?

Granny said :

peterh, you could be excluding good people and still enabling bad people with no recourse or defence because they haven’t even done anything wrong.

That’s sure as hell not the kind of society I want for my kids.

Granny, the risk of exclusion of good people is already happening in many, many areas, so you are ALREADY living in such a society (and have been for some time).

Again, anonymization techniques can (and do) make such techniques stigma-free (unless of course the person actually IS an offender). It’s all in the set up.

I’m not hung up on the idea of psychometric testing and I am not about to die in a ditch over it, because there are plenty of other risk controls that can be put in place to minimize the risk of future occurrences without the civil rights ferals going bolshie over them and chaining themselves to school flagpoles or anything like that.

My point being that psychometric testing is an excellent tool (but just one tool) in a hierarchy of risk controls and anyone with enough knowledge and experience with this tool would not rule it out completely. Again, it’s all about how it is set up. For example, it’s not something that an individual school should or could do because of the privacy (and many other) issues. It has to be done in a secure and independent fashion, as part of a battery of psychometric aptidudenal(sp?) dimensions that cover other areas besides sexual attitudes towards young children.

You wouldn’t want the results to be able to be correlated to a person’s name, for example. Note that in some states/territories, this issue is easier to deal with than in others because the way teachers are selected for schools varies. In Qld, for example, the Board of Teacher Registration is the selector, while the schools receive whichever teachers the board sends them. Elsewhere, the local school is the selector and conducts interviews directly with the teacher.

I would think that it would be comparatively easy to set up a testing system that anonymised job applicants during the selection process all the way up to after they receive the results of the selection. No one but them would know the results of why they failed the selection test (could be for academic reasons, for example) because their names are never used during the testing (only a randomized number). The schools then get a list of potential employees that contains only the names of those who have passed the test. Local communities do not know who applied for the selection, and that’s that.

peterh, you could be excluding good people and still enabling bad people with no recourse or defence because they haven’t even done anything wrong.

That’s sure as hell not the kind of society I want for my kids.

radonezh said :

Ari: yes, if not properly set up, it can be dangerous
Granny: so what is your solution?

wait.
If it is the difference between my kids going through school with the predators on the outside of the school fence, rather than being in with them, test away. If we can reduce the numbers of children being molested by people in authority roles, and i include counselors in this net, so be it.

the rights of the next generation far outweigh those of existing adults. I certainly don’t want the adults of the future perpetuating the predation of children by pedophiles. I would prefer that stringent measures were in place now.

Ari: yes, if not properly set up, it can be dangerous
Granny: so what is your solution?

What caf said …. And once again, hell no! Over my dead body.

Such testing would be very dangerous if the data has the potential to be aggregated through, for example, a national ID system.

caf said :

There’s a marked difference between labelling someone “Not risk averse enough to drive a train” and “Potential pederast, not to be left alone with children”. And if you don’t think the results would leak, particularly in smaller communities, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

Accept the fact that labeling issue is problematic. However, the existing police checks have precisely the same issues associated with them.

Sorry, Granny, “Hell no” will not change the fact that dozens of employers currently already (legally) carry out psychometric testing on both new recruits and existing staff members with the full support of their relevant unions and the relevant state and/or federal government.

There’s a marked difference between labelling someone “Not risk averse enough to drive a train” and “Potential pederast, not to be left alone with children”. And if you don’t think the results would leak, particularly in smaller communities, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

Hell, no! Deal with that.

Happens now in dozens of industries. Deal with it.

Guilty until proven innocent.

caf said :

I wouldn’t be happy with a plan to go around putting “IDENTIFIED BY THE GOVERNMENT AS A POTENTIAL PEDERAST” labels on people, based on psychological typing.

There are plenty of industries where psychometric screening applies on entrance (and retesting during service.) The military is one, police are another. Train drivers also are subjected to it – though in their case it is for a different set of markers – e.g. risk taking, hand-eye coordination that sort of thing. IF you don’t pass, you can’t work in that job role. There are no labels put on ’em, just a closed door policy.

johnboy said :

I find it’s a bad idea to let a need to fix the world stop one from fixing what’s right in front.

The best is the enemy of the good.

How exactly is addressing the root cause “trying to fix the world”?

Yes, sounds a bit like Minority Report to me also.

I wouldn’t be happy with a plan to go around putting “IDENTIFIED BY THE GOVERNMENT AS A POTENTIAL PEDERAST” labels on people, based on psychological typing.

peterh said :

radonezh said :

peterh said :

when you join the armed forces, they run a psych screen test on you to ensure that you are going to be the right candidate.

Perhaps the education system needs a psych eval system for all teachers. it would reduce the numbers of teachers, but at least there would be a failsafe to prevent the slimy predators from making it into contact with kids.

not just catholic schools, ALL Australian schools.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about, but not just teachers – everyone whose job involves being left alone with kids. And not just when they join, but retrospectively, and at random times throughout their careers so that they can’t try and fake the results. If they flunk it, then they can’t be left alone with ’em.

and the ones that fail can work in areas where children are never seen – libraries.

I think you were trying to be funny, but I can’t tell – sorry my sense of humour is at all time low at the moment.

In any case, the main thing is to never leave anyone who shows a psychometric propensity towards child abuse alone with children. Obviously, the best thing is to not employ them at all, but in some remote schools etc it won’t always be possible to find a person with the right skills to replace them. E.g. they may be the only people in Woop Woop who have the ability to teach music – so you’d have to put the right controls in place to make sure that they could teach music, but not without additional supervision and never on a one-on-one basis. Note that a psychometric propensity does not mean that they are offenders, or actually will offend – it’s just an indicator of likelihood. But it certainly does add additional levels of assurance to the current criminal history check system, which is woefully inadequate. The other (slightly less complex) thing that can be done is to ban all one-on-one interaction in all schools – but that’s probably all that practical.

Why should this school not be accountable when every other ACT school is required to be?

I find it’s a bad idea to let a need to fix the world stop one from fixing what’s right in front.

The best is the enemy of the good.

tylersmayhem said :

limit your collateral damage as far as reasonably practicable

Yes yes, just like Marist Brothers are doing hey?!

I have no particular affection for the Marist Brothers or their school since I have nothing to do with the school and never will (since I don’t have sons), but as someone who has seen and dealt with the results and effects of abuse (I would say, probably worse abuse than what these two Marist monsters did – try living with a wife who for years mistrusted all men and who had many and varied relationship dysfunction issues for two decades) I have to say that if you think that damaging the reputation of the present crop of parents/ students/ teachers/ workers etc of the school is going to prevent future occurrences of child abuse in the ACT (or any) catholic or private education systems, or even properly compensate the victims for their suffering, then I don’t think I agree with you.

I just think that the issue (and its solution) is bigger than Marist Brothers.

Not defending Marist Brothers, just asking the question about what the end game is meant to be from this.

radonezh said :

peterh said :

when you join the armed forces, they run a psych screen test on you to ensure that you are going to be the right candidate.

Perhaps the education system needs a psych eval system for all teachers. it would reduce the numbers of teachers, but at least there would be a failsafe to prevent the slimy predators from making it into contact with kids.

not just catholic schools, ALL Australian schools.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about, but not just teachers – everyone whose job involves being left alone with kids. And not just when they join, but retrospectively, and at random times throughout their careers so that they can’t try and fake the results. If they flunk it, then they can’t be left alone with ’em.

and the ones that fail can work in areas where children are never seen – libraries.

tylersmayhem3:28 pm 21 Oct 08

limit your collateral damage as far as reasonably practicable

Yes yes, just like Marist Brothers are doing hey?!

johnboy said :

If no-one can be found who is responsible for the running of the school I maintain that it’s continued operation is irresponsible.

Someone puts their hand up then fine. But moves to shut it down seem to be the only way to make them act like adults. Sadly their own consciences have so far failed to do so.

Mate, I understand exactly where you are coming from, totally sympathise and I wish you all the best – but please make sure that while you waging your righteous battle, that the reputations of the decent parents, kids and teachers of the school (and for that matter, the good clergy/brothers/whoever who didn’t commit any of these atrocities) do not end become needlessly covered in muck. In other words, limit your collateral damage as far as reasonably practicable and seek an outcome that creates the greatest amount of good to the community.

peterh said :

when you join the armed forces, they run a psych screen test on you to ensure that you are going to be the right candidate.

Perhaps the education system needs a psych eval system for all teachers. it would reduce the numbers of teachers, but at least there would be a failsafe to prevent the slimy predators from making it into contact with kids.

not just catholic schools, ALL Australian schools.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about, but not just teachers – everyone whose job involves being left alone with kids. And not just when they join, but retrospectively, and at random times throughout their careers so that they can’t try and fake the results. If they flunk it, then they can’t be left alone with ’em.

radonezh said :

peterh said :

johnboy said :

perhaps the problem here is to do with the marist brothers, not their religion?

if the CEO took over control of the school, as they should be doing anyway, and renewed it, there would be a more positive outlook for the future.

Seems reasonable to me – but what about the bigger picture? How does it solve the problem of all the other schools /institutions out there in Ozzie land that haven’t been subjected to scrutiny. What about putting in systems in place to deal with this? At the moment, the only thing most states have is the Blue Card – and all that represents is a police check of criminal history. That’s pretty useless.

when you join large companies, some of them run a genesys test on you first. damn thing is pretty accurate in your strengths and weaknesses, and if there is something you are hiding, it usually comes out.

when you join the armed forces, they run a psych screen test on you to ensure that you are going to be the right candidate.

Perhaps the education system needs a psych eval system for all teachers. it would reduce the numbers of teachers, but at least there would be a failsafe to prevent the slimy predators from making it into contact with kids.

not just catholic schools, ALL Australian schools.

peterh said :

johnboy said :

perhaps the problem here is to do with the marist brothers, not their religion?

if the CEO took over control of the school, as they should be doing anyway, and renewed it, there would be a more positive outlook for the future.

Seems reasonable to me – but what about the bigger picture? How does it solve the problem of all the other schools /institutions out there in Ozzie land that haven’t been subjected to scrutiny. What about putting in systems in place to deal with this? At the moment, the only thing most states have is the Blue Card – and all that represents is a police check of criminal history. That’s pretty useless.

radonezh said :

I agree that Marist should do the right thing. I agree that it is 100% wrong for them to cover it up. But I also think it is dead wrong to call for their closure/hand over to the govt/getting rid of religious schools etc (which has been bandied about in this forum).

If no-one can be found who is responsible for the running of the school I maintain that it’s continued operation is irresponsible.

Someone puts their hand up then fine. But moves to shut it down seem to be the only way to make them act like adults. Sadly their own consciences have so far failed to do so.

tylersmayhem said :

Wouldn’t it be better to help figure out an effective fix for the problem in the institution rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?

…or perhaps an organisation like Marist do the right thing by openly admitting and accepting responsibility for he goings on at the school. How DARE they use legal manoeuvring in an attempt at damage control.

It might have been forgivable if the school had done the right thing by being upfront about this abuse, and the cover-up at the time. Refusing to do so now is unforgivable.

I agree that Marist should do the right thing. I agree that it is 100% wrong for them to cover it up. But I also think it is dead wrong to call for their closure/hand over to the govt/getting rid of religious schools etc (which has been bandied about in this forum).

For anyone who thinks I dance around issues on here, sometimes I do.

But compare most of the comments I’ve made since http://the-riotact.com/?p=6451, and you’ll find that my opinion has changed, and Sidorko hasn’t held himself to his early statements.
Lack of tranparency has been a feature of this whole things since soon after day one, and i’d seriously reconsider sending miniature Skid to one of their school if this is how the Order choose to conduct themselves in light of the further allegations and scrutiny.

johnboy said :

My beef is not with Catholic schools in general. (Daramalan for instance is not resorting to this legal fiction to try and dodge responsibility and deserve some credit for that).

It is with this particular Catholic school.

Having said that the strict hierarchy of the Catholic faith with it’s dogma and lack of transparency is, IMHO, going to be more prone to abuse of various sorts than more open, and less rigid, structures.

JB, absolutely agree.

however, my faith, anglican, still recognises the catholic church as another part of christianity, even if we don’t have similar beliefs including the pope, confession, etc.

religious schools need to ensure that the environment is safe for kids. if Trinity christian or mackillop had these issues as well, i would expect the schools to sort them out, not cover them up.

perhaps the problem here is to do with the marist brothers, not their religion?

if the CEO took over control of the school, as they should be doing anyway, and renewed it, there would be a more positive outlook for the future.

johnboy said :

My beef is not with Catholic schools in general. (Daramalan for instance is not resorting to this legal fiction to try and dodge responsibility and deserve some credit for that).

It is with this particular Catholic school.

Having said that the strict hierarchy of the Catholic faith with it’s dogma and lack of transparency is, IMHO, going to be more prone to abuse of various sorts than more open, and less rigid, structures.

Dogma, strict hierarchy – not so sure these are necessarily evil things (dogma can be good – if it contains good concepts, so can strict hierarchy) – but lack of transparency – ABSOLUTELY AGREE. Abusers use lack of transparency to cloak their activities.

In relation to this particular school – I’ve met several families with sons in that particular school and they seem very happy with it. I would hate to think that they, their kids, and their educational futures would be under a cloud as a result of the activities of two completely evil bastards. Target the disease, not the patient.

tylersmayhem2:28 pm 21 Oct 08

Wouldn’t it be better to help figure out an effective fix for the problem in the institution rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?

…or perhaps an organisation like Marist do the right thing by openly admitting and accepting responsibility for he goings on at the school. How DARE they use legal manoeuvring in an attempt at damage control.

It might have been forgivable if the school had done the right thing by being upfront about this abuse, and the cover-up at the time. Refusing to do so now is unforgivable.

My beef is not with Catholic schools in general. (Daramalan for instance is not resorting to this legal fiction to try and dodge responsibility and deserve some credit for that).

It is with this particular Catholic school.

Having said that the strict hierarchy of the Catholic faith with it’s dogma and lack of transparency is, IMHO, going to be more prone to abuse of various sorts than more open, and less rigid, structures.

peterh said :

oh, and we do bury it deep down, some of us have issues in later life regarding commitment and relationships, trusting others and talking about what has happened.

the biggest problem is that you can never, ever, let it go.

probably why i wrap my kids in cotton wool to a degree. I would never want the same to happen to them…

My wife was extensively sexually abused from the age of 10 through to 16 by her late grandfather (an absolute pig of a man) for many, many years and I know exactly what you are talking about. It has been very difficult for her to work through the issues, but since his death and funeral, and since she shared the details with her family members, she’s been shaking off the baggage of his evil. She has even gone to amazing step of posthumously forgiving him (since he too was abused) – something that I doubt I could ever do.

I was also briefly sexually abused by a teenager while I was in primary school. Fortunately, it was not repeated and I also have the pleasure of knowing that that person will never amount to anything in society, while comparatively, I have blitzed through life and have never looked back. The individual concerned was of Italian extraction, but I have no lingering hatred for Italians.

Because of my wife’s experience, we have a policy that we will not leave our children alone with anyone. It always has to be more than one person, and in a situation that is not conducive to abuse. This, of course, means no sleep-overs – which they sometimes complain about because all their friends have sleepovers… but hey, I’d rather deal with their complaints than have to deal with something far more serious.

This is just a legal a maneuver (distasteful as that may be) that will ultimately fail. Do people really believe that their kids are under threat of sexual assault there right now?, I doubt it. If they did, they sure as hell wouldn’t be worrying about who had final legal liability for damages in some far off court case.

Having said that, I get your point johnboy. Clearly the Marist Brothers(and relevant authority’s) need to sort this out, but for the sake of propriety, not some pseudo-child protection issue as some commenter’s seem to believe.

For helping that to eventuate, you have my support

If he is mick1965, or even if he isn’t, we should be supporting him.

maybe other people are wondering as well, but where is mick1965?

is he the michael from lateline?

either way, i hope he is OK.

oh, and we do bury it deep down, some of us have issues in later life regarding commitment and relationships, trusting others and talking about what has happened.

the biggest problem is that you can never, ever, let it go.

probably why i wrap my kids in cotton wool to a degree. I would never want the same to happen to them…

tylersmayhem said :

I think the amount of abuse that has occurred within the Catholic religion cannot be denied. The sheer amount of abuse cases which have occurred within this religion is astounding – and I’d be very interested for the psychology of this to be studied and results published.

So would I, but by head of population and time in existence, there have been more politicians around the country that have been caught sexually abusing children (e.g. Orkopoulous (NSW), Wright (Qld) are just two very recent ones, but there were many more). Does that invalidate parliamentary democracy as a government?

Whatever our opinion of Catholicism, I’ll bet you my bottom dollar that they are no more prone to being the chosen hiding place for sexual predators than any other institution or part of society where children are placed within the trust of another person. And just because they are being caught in one institution, does not mean that there aren’t many more in a completely different institution.

I think there is ample evidence to show that far-and-away the majority of sexual abusers are trusted family members or friends. We are talking fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, uncles, aunties, neighbours etc. Proportionally, the percentage ratio of abusers coming out of the Catholic education system compared to the equivalent ratio in the rest of population would not be any higher.

Yes, it’s right to be outraged at what happened at Marist, but why would you want to close down yet another school? Why would you want to take away the rights of Catholics to have Catholic schools? Wouldn’t it be better to help figure out an effective fix for the problem in the institution rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater? The solution has to be a rational and reasonable one, not a reactive one.

buddingjourno1:50 pm 21 Oct 08

New Yeah said :

The Lyons/Kostka story keeps getting worse. I wonder how many other victims like ‘Michael’ are hiding from the world, still suffering from these vile men and the wretched organisations that continue to shield them?

I would imagine that there are countless amounts. Why would a grown man with a family and children want to bring back the horror of something like that. I imagine many would just bury it deep down and let it go.

The Lyons/Kostka story keeps getting worse. I wonder how many other victims like ‘Michael’ are hiding from the world, still suffering from these vile men and the wretched organisations that continue to shield them?

It makes me sick.

Deadmandrinking1:40 pm 21 Oct 08

Amazing school. I wonder how it survived without anyone being responsible for it ever?

I do agree with what Nambucco is saying, let’s not forget that abuse has surfaced in public institutions as well.

tylersmayhem1:39 pm 21 Oct 08

not that it is enough, but hopefuly kostka will get his fair share of abuse behind bars.

I’m pretty sure he’ll be protected while he’s in there. They’d hate for such a high-profile inmate to come out moaning about all the abuse that went on inside (as hilarious as it would be).

I’ve actually read a report recently (sorry, I cannot recall where), that the occurrence of abuse behind bars is much lower that the stereotypical expectations. I recall them saying that the highest likelihood is within the life-sentence category, and it usually consensual or in exchange for favours such as cigarettes, booze, drugs etc.

buddingjourno1:33 pm 21 Oct 08

not that it is enough, but hopefuly kostka will get his fair share of abuse behind bars.

A two year sentence is an insult to those kids. It tells them, “You’re worth nothing.”

tylersmayhem1:27 pm 21 Oct 08

I know of 2 guys in my year at Marist who both committed suicide. So many questions still bounce around in my head as to what the attributing factors were. So so sad!

2 years in gaol for Kostka hey?! I sincerely hope he gets something a fair bit harsher when he’s out in 2 years time.

Clown Killer1:25 pm 21 Oct 08

Nambucco, I’m not accusing you of parental delinquency, I just have trouble understanding the choice you’ve made. I don’t mind taking up the fight either if there’s somthing going on that’s not quite right, but its still reactive. Regardless of the potential educational benefits, I could never weigh them up against my childrens emotional and physical well being. You’re braver than me, that’s all.

And you’re not concerned that should something happen to your child no-one is responsible at the school?

Nambucco Deliria1:09 pm 21 Oct 08

Clown Killer said :

The bit I don’t understand is how the school is still running. Who the hell looks at the available schools that they could send their kids to and chooses one where the possibility of your children being sexually abused is part of the curriculum!

My youngest son goes to Marist – for what we can afford it was simply the best school, academically, that we could send him to. I looked at every available school, and Marist was my last choice.

He has never been happier since moving to Marist, and that’s all that matters to me.

I’m not a Catholic – my wife is- and I made it quite clear to her that if I detected even a whiff of unpleasantness coming from the brothers, or teachers for that matter, towards my son there would be a lot of trouble. I have no hangups about making life uncomfortable for any of those people whatsoever, and will not be bought off or silenced. I look on people accusing me of offering my son up as ‘butt fodder’ as a very serious slight to me and my wife’s ability or fitness to parent our children.

It’s just awful.

buddingjourno12:51 pm 21 Oct 08

My father was a marist boy in the late 70’s. He says that when he was in year seven/eight it was well known what went on. Everbody knew who the dodgy brothers were and knew to steer clear of them.

Apparently where the brothers slept, students weren’t allowed. But every morning a year seven student was on duty to go and wake one of the brothers up in their beds. Literally had to sneak into his room and wake him up. Pretty sure a lot would have gone down in that situation. Dad said everybody would give the kid on duty a hard time the day before because they knew what they were in for.

One of my fathers best mates was expelled from the school. He punched a brother in the face while in detention. 50 points for guessing why he punched the brother in the face in the first place!! This particular brother had made the news in recent years anyway, so hopefully he will get his justice. Not very fair to get expelled though. The kid would have been punished for years to come just for trying to protect himself. Dad says a lot of kids also labelled him as a fag after that and tormented him for a long time. Not his fault though.

tylersmayhem12:45 pm 21 Oct 08

Putting aside emotion, the destruction of the Catholic Education system or the Catholic Church would not be a desirable outcome for Australian society since it would not address the issue to any degree and would create more problems than it would solve.

I think the amount of abuse that has occurred within the Catholic religion cannot be denied. The sheer amount of abuse cases which have occurred within this religion is astounding – and I’d be very interested for the psychology of this to be studied and results published.

Clown Killer said :

The bit I don’t understand is how the school is still running. Who the hell looks at the available schools that they could send their kids to and chooses one where the possibility of your children being sexually abused is part of the curriculum!

what they need to do is put fresh blood in – teachers that are not a high risk category for this type of abuse. the school will carry the spectre of this history for as long as the current teachers are there.

what i don’t understand is why the Catholic Education Office hasn’t stepped in and investigated the goings on for a school that falls under their jurisdiction. If I were the CEO, I would want this sorted out damn fast – and making sure that the safety of the students is secured would be paramount.

speaking as one abused by a family friend, it was lucky for me that we moved away from the city we lived in, I didn’t have constant reminders to haunt me.

Marist needs to be cleansed – refurbed, re-staffed and renewed.

Clown Killer said :

The bit I don’t understand is how the school is still running. Who the hell looks at the available schools that they could send their kids to and chooses one where the possibility of your children being sexually abused is part of the curriculum!

It’s always a possibility, Clownkiller. I could mention several girls I know personally who were statutorily raped by teachers at public schools, for instance. I reckon most people could think of someone they knew who had a relationship with a teacher.

fnaah said :

Kick the Catholics out, keep the teachers and non-religious administrators by oeffering them jobs at their current pay level, and run it as an ACT public school. Sieze the momentous trust funds and use them to finance the salaries. (I know that none of this will happen, and it probably doesn’t even add up financially, but it’s a nice pipe dream).

I am outraged at how easily abusers are able to burrow their way into otherwise worthy institutions. I went to a State public school in another state, and I can say categorically that sexual abuse was there also, as well as racism and bullying (from teachers). It needs to be remembered that there are abusers in many households, from all walks of life. That’s the insidious thing about child abusers is that they can hide anywhere. They are not any more the product of religion than any other any other sort of education system or institution – they are the product of evil pure and simple, and being the parasites that they are, they are happy to inhabit whatever host will hide and feed their activities. Besides the tragic effect on their victims, they also create a situation where their host (in this case Catholic Education) is thrown into disrepute.

I am not a Catholic, but I strongly support the rights of the Catholic Church (or any other Church) to establish and run institutions on a religious basis. This is one of the fundamental freedoms of our society. Without the the institutions that the Catholic Church established, such as schools and hospitals, our society would be a lot poorer (and one of my children would not be alive today). The solution is not to

Putting aside emotion, the destruction of the Catholic Education system or the Catholic Church would not be a desirable outcome for Australian society since it would not address the issue to any degree and would create more problems than it would solve. Rather, the desired outcome is that hosts (schools) are permanently made immune from these parasitic life forms (child abusers).

Really, what needs to happen is that schools everywhere in Australia, whether they be religious or not, need to be subjected to a properly formulated and targeted program the includes such things as:

a) Regular random audits including interviews of children by trained child psychologists aimed at uncovering abuse
b) Provision of systems and resources to assist schools, students and parents in combating the problem
c) Psychometric screening of people in positions of power in institutions where children are taught (this must be applied retrospectively, not just to new employees/volunteers in the institutions)

Finally, we all need to understand that the overwhelming MAJORITY of people in positions of power, whether they be clergy, teachers, principals, parents etc, are NOT abusers. The abusers would not be able to hide easily of they were the majority. We need to support those who are good and earnest in their work. We need to empower them so that they can identify and combat abuse. We need them to get better at doing their jobs – and that means we need to support them.

I’ll climb off my soapbox now.

Clown Killer12:22 pm 21 Oct 08

The bit I don’t understand is how the school is still running. Who the hell looks at the available schools that they could send their kids to and chooses one where the possibility of your children being sexually abused is part of the curriculum!

ACT Light Rail11:55 am 21 Oct 08

as in everything – follow the money.

I sent an email to Mike Desmond a while back about how Mr Sidorko was originally doing a fair job of juggling four chainsaws with only two hands (need to run a trusted school everyday, need to show duty-of-care, need to keep the Order happy, and the need to stay within the boundaries defined by his legal team) and how while nobody would openly help him, it was going to be spectacular once he dropped the first one…

Now lets see how Sidorko dodges the remaining three.

johnboy said :

Also for those saying “it can’t happen now” I would like to point out that the same things were being said at every time that Kostka and Lyons were committing their atrocities.

With the school dodging responsibility for past crimes are you sure they’ve really cleaned up their act?

I totally agree with Johnboy on this. These people are masters at manipulating children into silence, or discrediting them if they do speak out. How do we know it’s not happening if they will not take responsibility for legally proven instances of the past. The only reason these victims can speak out is that they’re now adults. The children are still powerless. Damn straight we want some assurances that things have changed.

Management’s planning horizon will probably be “until the next board election”.
Insurer’s view will probably be “Any outcome that costs more than the total of the defense team’s bill and advice will affect shareholder value”
Legal’s view will probably be “any form of compromise which results in less than total success is unacceptable, my perceived value in future defenses will be diminished”.

Ideally it would be “what is best for the long-term viability of the school, is actually the best action to take today”, “whatever works, we will just increase their premium anyway”, and “If there has been a wrong perpetrated here, justice should be served” respectively, but we’re not in a perfect world.

As a former student, I’d be more willing to send my swarm of children to a place that admitted there were dark times once, which were learned from, dealt with appropriately, and raised their accountability and child protection standards as a consequence.
They are, afterall, in the business of learning and teaching by example.

Also for those saying “it can’t happen now” I would like to point out that the same things were being said at every time that Kostka and Lyons were committing their atrocities.

With the school dodging responsibility for past crimes are you sure they’ve really cleaned up their act?

I don’t understand why so many of the people in positions of power don’t speak out firmly about things like this. Don’t they understand that you can’t forgive someone if you haven’t admitted they’ve done something wrong in the first place? Justice has to be done! I find the defensiveness really sickening. If they’d just condemn the crimes, root out the problem, and ensure it never happens again the issue would go away. But the way they wriggle and squirm is simply sickening. Someone needs to get to the bottom of this.

The main reason I’d suggest draconian action against the school is it might force whomever’s running the place to fight it.

And then we’d know.

As a former student (but fortunately, not a former victim), this continues to sadden, outrage and terrify me.

I was lucky to only have received a good education, however I would happily protest the continued government funding of Marist College.

Kick the Catholics out, keep the teachers and non-religious administrators by oeffering them jobs at their current pay level, and run it as an ACT public school. Sieze the momentous trust funds and use them to finance the salaries. (I know that none of this will happen, and it probably doesn’t even add up financially, but it’s a nice pipe dream).

I agree, Tyler.

Sitting around talking about it does very little, although we do sometimes see the power of the Riot in action. Nevertheless, a hundred good men and women who care enough could make a real difference for these people.

They shouldn’t have to fight alone. They’ve been fighting all their lives. It really is time that we took a stand as a community and went shoulder to shoulder in solidarity.

captainwhorebags9:10 am 21 Oct 08

Such a pity that a school with a long standing good reputation in this city has chosen a path that will bring shame upon its staff and students.

The school had an excellent name (until recently) of providing a very good education and most Canberrans would have known someone who went there. In my experience the teachers by and large were dedicated, caring and talented individuals. The opportunities provided to steudents were many and varied.

I was glad to see the allegations all come out in the public eye and I hoped that the school would deal with them in a responsible, caring way that ensured the victims received what they were entitled to and guaranteed the safety of current and future students.

To see the management of the school abandon their Christian ethos so easily is sickening. I think the best course isn’t to shut the school down, it’s to establish who is in charge, appoint someone if necessary, and make good on the offer of reconciliation. That way the victims can move on with their lives and the staff and students can continue in the process of education.

tylersmayhem9:00 am 21 Oct 08

From my perceptive, I think that the likelihood of any further abuse occurring at Marist is quite unlikely, so future students will be safe. My big question is the principal of parents sending their kids to a school that is refusing to take responsibility for abused children under their care.

This whole thing stinks, and while I would have once considered sending my kids there in the future, I now refuse to even think about it.

As the public, I think we should be doing more. In the good ole’ days when communities were more active, people would turn up to the school by the hundreds and hold a demonstration until the problem received the appropriate attention by the government. I have never been to a protest, but I would come and support and partake in a demonstration against Marist. By us citizens of Canberra sitting idly by and only talking about how much this sucks, we are allowing the disregard for what has happened, continue.

They can’t have it both ways. The whole thing makes me sick.

To hell with ’em (literally). Shut the place down.

If they want to say that there is no legal entity running the place, then they can take the consequences of that.

Once again, and alledgedly Christian organisation proves that it is anything but 😛

I agree, Jessieduck.

Of the two paedophiles who have preyed on my children over the years, one was a ‘Christian’ but not Catholic friend of my father, and the other was a mentally ill ex-partner of mine.

Pogroms are not cool.

That’s a disgrace and against so many Christian values I don’t know where to begin.

Horrible things happened at that school and their duty of care was not upheld. It is so obvious and slimy that they are trying to get out of paying their dues.

PS- mimime2- shutup. Plenty of bad things go on in state schools as well.

its f*cking disgusting

Defund them now and revoke the lease.

Wide Boy Jake4:27 am 21 Oct 08

Is it any wonder people refer to the Catholic church as The Church of Pedophilia.

Blame the school … ? when the PARENTS keep burying their heads and in the sand and keep sending their children into these dens of iniqity (don’t get to say THAT very often)year after year; court case after court case.
“No child should go throught that horror…” you are so right Granny; and add the horror that they KNOW their parents) sent them there; they will KNOW that the parents) knew; they will have to deal with that betrayal as well… being sacrificed to their parent’s egos, religious fears and guilt. They will know in the end that the blame is on their very own loving, caring, God-fearing, church-loving, truth-denying parents. The ones that took them to the gates of hell called a Catholic School and offered them up to men of the cloth who saw them as their own to-do-with-as-they-wished; butt-fodder given over to them by mum and dad. Yeah, go ahead and blame the school.

I was stunned to hear two mothers, some months back, discussing which school to send their boys to, Marist or St Eddies. The first of these articles had been appearing on Riotact, plus the news reportage, and I was startled. Eventually, I muttered something about this business, and both women quickly brushed it aside as all in the past and all gone now.

Well, I don’t get it. I really don’t. Plainly there’s an attitude out there that I just do not understand. I don’t like children very much, but this is too much. It’s just plain cruelty, and yet apparently they think it can be swept under the carpet, and from the mothers’ attitudes, maybe they’re on to something. What the hell is going on?

Enough is enough. This is ridiculous. I can’t stand sexual predators, but even less those who defend and protect them.

It is time for churches everywhere to begin to practice what they preach if they want any respect from anybody. I can be as cowardly as the next person, but there comes a time when you have to say I did this and I was wrong – no matter what the consequences or the shame.

Somebody must be running the school! I have never heard anything so disgraceful. Trying to weasel out of responsibility for crimes perpetrated against children in their care. Shame on you, Marist! Shame!

The pain in that man’s voice was so haunting, especially when he spoke of the blood in his underwear. No child should live through that horror.

I actually seriously think we should all be down there protesting and agitating for change. Or at least set up a page where people can email the new legislative assembly.

If we don’t protect our kids, who will?

Certainly not the school ….

Unbelievable. I was astounded to hear their defence that they owed no duty of care to the students. This is the hallmark of an organisation – the Catholic Church and its many offshoots – that has utterly failed to deal with its rotten core. Time and time again they strive to cover things up and denigrate the victims, taking responsibility in only the most limited ways and specific, undeniable examples of criminal activity. Then it’s back on with the silly clothes and the multi-billion dollar business and property portfolio to manage. Now the Marist Brothers Trust insults its victims by pretending it never ran the school. It fails to say who does – probably because it’s busy setting up a shell company in the Netherlands to take the fall for them. I can only imagine how sickened the victims must feel. Time to withdraw all government funding for these hypocrites.

I wandered in to Lateline half way through this, and was very pleased to see the ABC fighting the good fight of real investigative journalism, finding things taht weren’t meant to be found and asking some very hard questions.

This really has to be resolved, and soon. It can’t go on. As a mean and tricky way of evading responsibility it has to be either allowed to stand (with all that means for the school, see the OP) or it needs to be kicked into the weeds.

Thank you, Master, but it’s been 45 years and I still can’t snatch that darn pebble ….

*chuckle*

Holden Caulfield12:01 am 21 Oct 08

Yikes! Thanks for posting that johnboy, hard to speak so definitively without having all the facts at hand, but this addition to this whole sorry saga appears to make an already disgraceful situation even worse, if that were possible.

Thoughts to all those affected who must be really struggling with this. 🙁

Still processing… patience grasshopper.

I’m getting a message that the video is no longer available, JB.

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