10 October 2010

Canberra men don't want to be teachers

| johnboy
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The Canberra Times notes that the ACT has the lowest percentage of male teachers in Australia and that number’s dropping.

The Department of Education and Training’s 2009-10 annual report showed government schools had even fewer men than the territory overall, with the ratio of male to female staff at 22per cent to 78per cent, which has remained constant for the past two years.

However, in spite of the imbalance, the department has no plan to encourage more men into the ranks of teaching.

”The DET’s focus is on recruiting quality teachers, rather than specifically targeting men,” a spokesman said.

Anyone want to speculate as to why?

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bd84 said :

p1 said :

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

These are the three biggest reasons I didn’t go into teaching.

Just add in the political correct world gone mad that censors the curriculum to the useless topics and creates a system that prevents teachers from being able to properly control and discipline the students.

Above are all spot on comments…

You could also add in a system where teachers are not supported but are instead kept on the revolving door of contract employment… see today’s Canberra Times link here:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/five-years-on-teacher-steps-off-treadmill-of-impermanence/1996692.aspx

Andrew BARR … your comments please ?

Please don’t tell us that you value education but can’t see the link to supporting teachers that this might entail ?

http://www.det.act.gov.au/minister

Andrew Barr.
Phone: (02) 6205 0011
Fax: (02) 6205 0157
Email: barr@act.gov.au

colourful sydney racing identity10:46 am 25 Oct 10

Gerry-Built said :

shadow boxer said :

shadow boxer said :
Nah, it was vague because you didn’t want to post the fact teachers get 12 weeks paid holidays a year where, according to an earlier post from a teacher, they may get called in for up to 5 days personal development.

You need to re-read previous posts and re-educate yourself on this issue. Teachers don’t have 12 weeks above what everyone else gets.

12 weeks class free;
remove 4 weeks for annual leave (a right enjoyed by all F/T workers). Of the remaining ‘stand down’; remove 5/6 *mandatory* days PD (1 or 2x DET Priority, 2x School Priority, 1x Faculty Priority and 1x Personal; now remove up to 10 days of Public Holidays (2010 has been unusual, as all but 4 days PH fell outside School Breaks – but usually Easter and ANZAC day are within School Holidays)

Therefore *at maximum*, the additional weeks equate to 6. That is ‘fact’ – absolutely verifiable on the DET or AEU ACT websites. Given the work teachers undertake, the pace and stress faced, those 6 weeks are one of the perks of the job (and definitely does not mean no-one else experience similar in their own work environments). Each job has its own perks, and its own problems, but note that those 6 weeks are not enough “luxury” to counter the negatives enough to either attract enough high quality applicants, nor sustain most of the high quality applicants in teaching careers beyond 10 years (Canberra Times today).

Perpetuating the myth that teachers have 12 weeks holidays, simply because we get 12 weeks without directly facing our classes, is a cop out on your part, and wa-ay too simplistic an argument to refute with fact. An increasing majority of a teachers job is undertaken away from the classroom, and some of that is undertaken outside of the school environment.

Neither financial incentive, nor 6 weeks additional leave, has been enough to attract and retain enough teachers to the profession (world-wide). In the ACT, the local government has devalued the profession by painting us as trouble-makers in the public eye simply for refusing to trade off work conditions or negatively affect our students conditions, and using negative language against us, such as “attracting better quality teachers” (giving the impression none already exist) – and some of that mud has stuck, as evidenced by attitudes such as yours and Mr Knox’s.

Don’t waste your time. John Knox is not interested in facts, his illinformed opinion is the only thing that matters.

I looked at a table of teacher salaries the other day and they are way underpaid in my opinion. Very difficult job, especially for high school teachers.

Weekend just gone there was a Canberra Times article about teaching conditions and projected retention rates of new teachers in the ACT system.

Link is here: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/new-act-teachers-ready-to-ditch-job/1977310.aspx

shadow boxer said :

shadow boxer said :
Nah, it was vague because you didn’t want to post the fact teachers get 12 weeks paid holidays a year where, according to an earlier post from a teacher, they may get called in for up to 5 days personal development.

You need to re-read previous posts and re-educate yourself on this issue. Teachers don’t have 12 weeks above what everyone else gets.

12 weeks class free;
remove 4 weeks for annual leave (a right enjoyed by all F/T workers). Of the remaining ‘stand down’; remove 5/6 *mandatory* days PD (1 or 2x DET Priority, 2x School Priority, 1x Faculty Priority and 1x Personal; now remove up to 10 days of Public Holidays (2010 has been unusual, as all but 4 days PH fell outside School Breaks – but usually Easter and ANZAC day are within School Holidays)

Therefore *at maximum*, the additional weeks equate to 6. That is ‘fact’ – absolutely verifiable on the DET or AEU ACT websites. Given the work teachers undertake, the pace and stress faced, those 6 weeks are one of the perks of the job (and definitely does not mean no-one else experience similar in their own work environments). Each job has its own perks, and its own problems, but note that those 6 weeks are not enough “luxury” to counter the negatives enough to either attract enough high quality applicants, nor sustain most of the high quality applicants in teaching careers beyond 10 years (Canberra Times today).

Perpetuating the myth that teachers have 12 weeks holidays, simply because we get 12 weeks without directly facing our classes, is a cop out on your part, and wa-ay too simplistic an argument to refute with fact. An increasing majority of a teachers job is undertaken away from the classroom, and some of that is undertaken outside of the school environment.

Neither financial incentive, nor 6 weeks additional leave, has been enough to attract and retain enough teachers to the profession (world-wide). In the ACT, the local government has devalued the profession by painting us as trouble-makers in the public eye simply for refusing to trade off work conditions or negatively affect our students conditions, and using negative language against us, such as “attracting better quality teachers” (giving the impression none already exist) – and some of that mud has stuck, as evidenced by attitudes such as yours and Mr Knox’s.

For what it’s worth:

I am male, 12 years teaching in the primary classroom in ACT. I get to work by 8am and leave at 5ish. I usually do an hour or more most evenings marking, planning and data entry. I work half a day each weekend on average. At reports time, weekends are a distant memory (like this weekend!). Holidays… I spend 3 days working each term break, a week of my own time at Christmas break and the mandated 4-5 days PD at schools. We are also mandated to do a day of our own time over the year. These times are common for most teachers in ACT.

I average 1/2 an hour break from 8-5 most days. Some days less.

I love being a teacher, however the conditions are sometimes a little hectic. I think what wears many teachers out is the non-stop pace during the workday, where most teachers feel the need to almost run between areas of the school knowing the little kids could get into some serious strife if not kept very busy. We also take ourselves very seriously… sometimes too much. 🙂

Sadly, another tiring part of teaching is the frequent need to guide others, all day, to choose the correct behaviours, knowing the need to do it again later, or the next day, and the next, at the same time knowing parents often do not pass on the same values that we try to instill in the students.

When standdown rolls around, most teachers are simply worn out. Most parents comment on wanting school back to take a break from their own children! Times that by 25 and then you do feel a little tired.

Being male, kids and parents both assume the best insult is to imply that I am gay and a kiddy fiddler. I’m not, but all it takes over a career is one disgruntled little kid to make a comment to get back at you for sending them to time out. This is by far the biggest concern of any male teacher. I joined the union just for the legal assistance I would need.

Rant almost over. Teaching is great, sign up. The intrinsic rewards are great, the money not so much, but all teachers know that before they start. Holidays are nice, but much needed. I, for one, would put in more time if the pay were greater. A bit of fence sitting there.

Spend a day in a school, as an adult. Further your education.

georgesgenitals6:28 pm 24 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

JohnKnox said :

When Im at work Im actually working. I myself have no time to go to coffees and I get about ½ for lunch most days.

Certainly seems as if you’ve got plenty of time to spend on the internet, though.

Maybe he’s on school holidays?

JohnKnox said :

When Im at work Im actually working. I myself have no time to go to coffees and I get about ½ for lunch most days.

Certainly seems as if you’ve got plenty of time to spend on the internet, though.

All teechers is dum, and they get payed enuff allredy!

I wouldn’t be a teacher for all the money in the world – but that’s mainly because I would be liable to throttle some of the little turds they have to put up with during their day at work. For that reason alone, I have no problem with teachers getting more than four weeks annual leave each year.

My personal opinion is that sadly teaching, like nursing, is a much undervalued profession in this world where nowadays someone who can cook cous cous in 250 different ways and plate a sparrow’s wing and glazed Kumquat nicely are held in such high regard.

The other problem with teaching is that too many parents expect teachers to rectify issues in their children that they are either too damn lazy or stupid to fix themselves.

Yes, there are some useless teachers around; but then there are also some useless public servants/pilots/politicians/doctors/plumbers/electricians/etc as well.

shadow boxer3:40 pm 24 Oct 10

shadow boxer said :

“It’s not a few weeks, we all know it and the fact you couldn’t bring yourself to post the actual figure and chose to vague it up speaks volumes”

One of my early posts (#39) on this thread outlined that exact point… if it was too vague for you (vague only because it changes slightly from year to year – except for the 4 weeks annual leave in Jan. – which is a worker’s legal right enjoyed by most employees in Australia), let me know and I will happily post a detailed explanation of the PD and Public Holidays from 2009, 2010 and 2011 school years. Here at your insistence – by my calculation, at most, 6 weeks extra; well and truly justifiable given the work hours and conditions (Yes – not an “actual figure” but it changes, within a few days, from year to year).

Nah, it was vague because you didn’t want to post the fact teachers get 12 weeks paid holidays a year where, according to an earlier post from a teacher, they may get called in for up to 5 days personal development.

No other occupation gets that sort of luxury…. teaching is important and i’m sure reasonably difficult at the high school level but is teaching ants in the apple year after year really so hard it requires special forces style R and R ?

Good luck to you but seriously this working stiff isn’t buying it.

JohnKnox said :

“teachers are hard done by and should be put on a pedestal for all to worship”

Clamber down from your pedestal for a moment JohnKnox and dribble on about something you actually know about.

JohnKnox said :

Wow Gerry – such anger in your posts. What gives?

The length of my response to your single post was why I didn’t go back through all your posts and respond to every incredulous, self-righteous or indeed insensitive thing you said. In fact, I didn’t even respond to everything in that post.

I had no anger in my responses; I clearly formulated and articulated arguments against statements you made, which, in my experience (HS teacher, Public System) have painted the teaching profession in a manner that is perpetuating myth. You choose to paint them as “fact” (which they absolutely are not – hence “bull!” – okay let’s tone that down to “untrue” or “I’m afraid I do not believe that, and to counter it, I offer…”), because your ‘teacher friends’ “told you so” (hence, their, and your; “opinion”). I am not the only teacher who has posted here to tell you that you’re wrong (at least for the majority of teachers, who act professionally and consistently improve their Curriculum. You have an opinion that teachers are paid about right for what they do. Your experience of what teachers do is not holistically true – just trying to establish that for you. I have not been “bitching and moaning” about it, but pointing out the inaccuracies of your argument. I have not personally attacked you, but I have noted you have extremely thin skin, calling foul everytime someone disagrees with you (ie #149). Neither have I said “shut up…”, that was your own interpretation. I also never said that Teachers should be paid like Doctors… wow! you certainly do a lot of interpretation of peoples’ comments, but really are quick to cry foul when someone does that to you. Saying someone is not “typical” (which, if I remember right, was your own wording) does not equate to “abnormal”. Putting “Teacher Friends” in quotes didn’t deny their existence – it was a quote from your post. Stop interpreting… please! I put time into deliberately choosing my words, and articulate my arguments clearly and carefully (at least on long, considered posts such as this one)- and I’ve allowed you the same privilege, trying not to resort to misinterpretation, anger and name calling.

shadow boxer said :

It’s not a few weeks, we all know it and the fact you couldn’t bring yourself to post the actual figure and chose to vague it up speaks volumes

One of my early posts (#39) on this thread outlined that exact point… if it was too vague for you (vague only because it changes slightly from year to year – except for the 4 weeks annual leave in Jan. – which is a worker’s legal right enjoyed by most employees in Australia), let me know and I will happily post a detailed explanation of the PD and Public Holidays from 2009, 2010 and 2011 school years. Here at your insistence – by my calculation, at most, 6 weeks extra; well and truly justifiable given the work hours and conditions (Yes – not an “actual figure” but it changes, within a few days, from year to year).

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

But still free training provided by your employer is a pretty good deal wouldn’t you say?

No – actually, in this country, it is a legal obligation of your employer.

It’s called the “Training Guarantee Act (1990)” and obligates your (meaning everyones’ – to the best of my knowledge) employer to spend money on training staff. You (meaning you, JohnKnox) should get to know your rights at work – because you might be missing out some that many people have fought hard to earn for you in the past. It is a good deal – but one enjoyed by every employee (covered by the Act).

Additionally, all Australian workers (to the best of my knowledge) have a legal right to 4 weeks leave, annually. Who is it that works 51 weeks, without Public Hols?

Finally, (especially for JohnKnox); I’ve no anger toward you. Indeed, If I was introduced to you tomorrow (or later today as it turns out), I’d harbour no resentment toward you at all (in all sincerity), because I agree you have a right to your opinion. But in having that right, you also have a responsibility to accept any retorts (including mine), especially if the case you present is based on spurious opinions, arguments and claims, with little basis in fact.

Don’t feel that you need to drop this argument, accept that there is a retort to your understandings of the profession I am in, and be open to correction over your assumptions of things like 12 weeks leave. I don’t doubt that you think teachers are paid what you think they deserve – given your understandings of the profession. But understand that what you think is based on some incorrect assumptions. On the other hand,(at least some of) what I have said is fact – in the pure sense, because they can actually be *verified*.

shadow boxer7:45 pm 23 Oct 10

Good post Gerry Built but you let yourself down with this bit

JohnKnox said :

“they don’t work the same quantity of hours as the majority of the rest of the workforce.”

Out of all the jobs I have experienced, the teaching profession is by far the busiest – and the trade off of having a few weeks in addition to those enjoyed by other workers is well justified

It’s not a few weeks, we all know it and the fact you couldn’t bring yourself to post the actual figure and chose to vague it up speaks volumes

Gerry-Built said :

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

Well obviously you dont know me. Because I actually know a number of people in the teaching profession. That’s where my facts come from.

Feel free to share with us all, some of the ‘facts’ of the luxurious conditions your teacher friends are have regaled you with…

…so go ahead… regale away… ‘facts’ aplenty…

Read my other posts and you will find the answer to this.

Wow Gerry – such anger in your posts. What gives? Is the fact that someone may have an opinion that teachers are paid about the right wages for what they do rather than saying they are hard done by and should be paid like doctors offending you?

Before I come to your post can I ask why you focussed on only one of my posts instead of the complete picture? I mean if you look at yesterday I actually had a fair bit to say BUT it was all pointing to the fact that based upon what my friends say and what I observe through dealing with both my own schooling and that of my kids I still can’t see teachers working these so called slave hours 365 days a year 20 odd hours a day (oh yeah and before you flame me on that it was exaggerating a point). I also pointed out that just because my opinion differs to some others here then there is no reason we have to get into this stupid riotact mentality of name calling and “just shut up you know nothing” crap.

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

guess what all but one said yes they did have to go to a couple of days training but most of the professional development comprised of being given a work book to complete by the end of the holidays (which of course most did the night before like all of us do).

If that is indeed the case, your “teacher friends” are far from ‘typical’.

So the experience my friends have differs from your own = they are wrong and are obviously atypical? Wow with arguments like that how could I ever have doubted the fact?

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

But still free training provided by your employer is a pretty good deal wouldn’t you say?

No – actually, in this country, it is a legal obligation of your employer.

Legal obligation? Sorry I’m not that familiar with those laws. I mean OH&S, workplace safety, harassment. Yep I know of all those types but I didn’t know employers were obligated to also improve their staff through training. Happy to have people prove me wrong here – just show me the legislation that in this country every employer has to provide training (and Im not talking about on the job training like working heavy machinery here Im talking training that improves an employee). BTW does that mean if I work at a BP servo then I can be trained up as a doctor too? Just wondering.

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

As for planning apparently the hard work is done in the first year of teaching when you develop your first plan. After that you just have to amend it here and there. I’d say that that hardly sounds like 12 weeks worth of intense workload.

Absolute bull! Again – your “teacher friends” are far from ‘typical’. Curriculum is always being updated, and there is no functioning teacher who is not regularly reviewing what they deliver and how they deliver it, along with the requirement to add in National, DET and School priorities.

ABSOLUTE bull eh? So once again, as above, my friends have a differing experience so they must be wrong. And curriculum changes so dramatically that it takes 12 weeks to update? OK minus the training let’s say 8 weeks. As for all teachers constantly reviewing what they deliver. Come on. Really? Either that statement is grossly overstated or maybe teachers need training in how to manage their time better?

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

This would be because they hardly work the hours that entitle overtime / flex etc.
…With most lunches (apart from when they’re on duty) and classes like library studies and gym they do get an hour available here and there to do some admin work.

OMG! Your “teacher friends are from American movies… it all makes sense now!!! However, I’d like to point out, that in your own words in this quote, you have just identified that even during ‘breaks’ – teachers are performing day-to-day work tasks… administrative tasks and planning tasks take time out of class time, as does following up on student behaviour, supervising extra curricular activities, planning social activities, running assessment, marking/grading, staff social activities, sporting activities etc. When was the last time one of your “teacher friends” was able to meet you to catch up for a coffee (yet alone lunch) during a school day?

So my friends’ experience differs from yours again so they must be from American movies? How could I ever have had an opinion different to yours Gerry? I mean you’ve won me with that.

So teachers have to work during ‘breaks’ (sorry non-face to face teaching periods) as opposed to the majority of the workforce that has to … wait for it. Work during non face to face work periods. It’s no different to the rest of us. Except we tend not to b!tch and moan about it.

As for lunches well here’s the thing Gerry. When Im at work Im actually working. I myself have no time to go to coffees and I get about ½ for lunch most days. I’d expect exactly the same from all my friends including those that are teachers.

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

they don’t work the same quantity of hours as the majority of the rest of the workforce.

Out of all the jobs I have experienced, the teaching profession is by far the busiest – and the trade off of having a few weeks in addition to those enjoyed by other workers is well justified.

OK I fully take this statement. In your experience it was the busiest job you’ve done. I have know doubt that is the case. As for the trade off we are in agreement for once. Whereas, I see the extra weeks as the trade off for getting better wages. You see the extra weeks as a trade off for the hours you see teachers doing. Either way it is a tradeoff and they are getting extra weeks to the rest of the workforce.
BTW thankyou for finally putting a statement in here that doesn’t go back to the “well you friends are full of sh!t”, “you are full of sh!t” or “shut up what would you know”. It’s a pleasure to actually read your opinion without trolling through the insults.

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

“teachers are hard done by and should be put on a pedestal for all to worship” religion will now come along to flame me.

Teachers don’t expect to be put on a pedestal – there certainly won’t be any standing idly by to allow you to continue to perpetuate myths about the teaching profession. Teaching is being devalued from the outside by attitudes like yours, not from the inside, reflective of the abilities and conditions of those *actually* in the profession.

I simply do not believe you have access to friends who teach – or if you do, the friends you have discussed these matters with are far from typical of the majority of staff in our schools, who are dedicated and professional hard workers, who well and truly earn the few extra privileges our profession enjoys over other streams of work. Whilst pay levels are certainly an issue – they are hardly the main drive for teachers to move out of the profession… nor are they a great contributing factor to drawing suitable people in. To cheapen the profession by tarring us all with the “you couldn’t possibly expect to be paid like REAL workers” brush is far from fair or reasonable, as teachers work just as hard and as many hours as anyone else earning the same, and generally more, pay… and they do this usually in conditions that no other Public Servant would be prepared to work in or under.

SIGH, and here I was thinking that we’d gone past this. OK you don’t have to believe me that I have teacher friends. Just like I don’t have to believe that you have ever been in the teaching profession. Just like I don’t have to believe that all teachers are “dedicated and professional hard workers, who well and truly earn the few extra privileges our profession enjoys”. At the end of the day though this is still a he said she said situation. However, I’d side with my friends views over yours any day because:
1. I know my friends, I know they actually teach and that seemed quite genuine with what they said. Whereas I simply don’t know you.
2. There were multiple friends that were teachers I asked whilst you are one person.
3. My friends never once questioned the opposing opinion let alone insulted people like you for having those opinions. Whereas all through your threads you seem to need to resort to childish insults, questioning the existence of my friends and throwaway lines like: “Well they are obviously abnormal”.

I personally have the opinion that teachers have challenging jobs. However, it’s no more challenging than many other professions in the community. It is also an important job but no more important than a lot of other jobs out there. What I don’t like is the victim mentality of some teachers (NOT all teachers) that insist they are underpaid for what they do, they work the same hours over a year as those working 51 weeks a year and have appalling conditions compared to everyone else. Isn’t it an insult to those workers to have people asking for the same wage but with an additional 12 weeks a year off? Isn’t it an insult to those people that have truly stressful and appalling jobs?

I also don’t like this idea that if people like me say “I believe teachers are paid fairly for the work they do” then we are somehow tarnishing the industry and causing people to leave. I agree the “REAL workers” comment was a little low and I apologise for that. But suggesting that people are leaving because people like me are degrading their job is pretty far fetched don’t you think?

Anyway I’m sure I’ve opened myself to the mullahs again. Say what you will I’m too busy and too bored to care anymore. So unless some huge revelation comes along with more than opinions then I guess I’m sticking to my opinion. I will say this though. Given that my opinion matches the current level of teacher’s wages someone else out there must also think it’s fair too.

BerraBoy68 said :

All in all it seems that the teaching profession is in a lot of trouble and its going to get worse.

…and keeping the wages of the teaching profession at a level, where at the top of the scale a Classroom Teacher cannot make as much as a top of the scale APS6 will help improve teacher recruitment quality, how, exactly?

I am all for holding PD opportunities during school holiday periods (or after school hours – which I always try for)… It takes as long to prepare a meaningful lesson for a class as it takes to deliver them (probably why your children are seeing videos). Additionally, relief staff often don’t cover the material left anyway.

The last EBA ensured that the relief teacher pool (certainly at the Secondary level) dried up by redirecting teacher resourcing back into “internal relief” (where existing F/T teachers now cover absent teachers wherever possible). It meant that for many relief teachers, their “back-up jobs” became their primary source of income, or that they had to search for more reliable sources of income (ie the APS).

I would also contend that the state of resourcing, and in particular, the physical state of school buildings, is extremely demoralising for the existing workforce, yet alone retention of new staff. For example, I’ve not yet worked in a school that did not have a serious leaky roof (I’m talking water building up in roof cavities, or literally streaming down walls), or where I didn’t have to partially supply my own furnishings. Whilst DET continues to include infrastructure, OH&S and building resources as part of “School Based Management”, school buildings will continue to fall into such a state of disrepair, that the only alternative will be to bulldoze and rebuild, such as the former Ginninderra High School and Kambah High School.

As a parent, one of the things that is really starting to make my blood boil is that teachers are taking several days out of the classroom each term to attend courses. Then, as a result of the general shortage of teachers in the ACT, the school can’t get replacements for these teachers so kids have to be farmed off to other classes (sometimes higher grades, sometime lower) with a pre-prepared task sheet to complete (which my 8 year old seems to be able to knock-off before recess). What’s this doing to their education?

I just can’t understand why, with 12 weeks leave a year, teachers can’t attend courses during the ‘holidays’ instead of on a school day! Perhaps they could then argue that by giving up one or two weeks ‘leave’ to do these professional courses they should get a pay rise.

Another issue seems to be a general dumbing down in the classroom. My kids frequently come home telling us they watched a movie at school and after questioning we find it’s normally a Disney or pixar DVD. Where’s the educational content and why don’t the teachers use that time to do more math, english or some basic science? I had to pick up the kids early a few weeks back and found my year 1 child’s class watching a DVD of a woman reading a book! Why couldn’t the teacher read one to them?

Finally, a close friend is current studying to become a primary teacher and she showed me some of the comments being posted by her university classmates in their wiki pages. Many of them don’t seem to be able to spell or, in some cases, even form a coherent sentence. I pity the kids that get these people as their teachers in a few years time.

All in all it seems that the teaching profession is in a lot of trouble and its going to get worse.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox – correct me if I am misrepresenting you here, but, my understanding is that you believe that teachers have 12 weeks leave a year (during which time they don’t really have to do anything) and are only required to work from 9am – 3pm – is this correct?

Clearly:

JohnKnox said :

1) Does most the workforce get school holidays off as well as their standard annual, sick leave etc? No yet teachers get this bonus leave.

Gerry-Built said :

JohnKnox said :

Well obviously you dont know me. Because I actually know a number of people in the teaching profession. That’s where my facts come from.

Feel free to share with us all, some of the ‘facts’ of the luxurious conditions your teacher friends are have regaled you with…

…so go ahead… regale away… ‘facts’ aplenty…

JohnKnox said :

guess what all but one said yes they did have to go to a couple of days training but most of the professional development comprised of being given a work book to complete by the end of the holidays (which of course most did the night before like all of us do).

If that is indeed the case, your “teacher friends” are far from ‘typical’.

JohnKnox said :

But still free training provided by your employer is a pretty good deal wouldn’t you say?

No – actually, in this country, it is a legal obligation of your employer.

JohnKnox said :

As for planning apparently the hard work is done in the first year of teaching when you develop your first plan. After that you just have to amend it here and there. I’d say that that hardly sounds like 12 weeks worth of intense workload.

Absolute bull! Again – your “teacher friends” are far from ‘typical’. Curriculum is always being updated, and there is no functioning teacher who is not regularly reviewing what they deliver and how they deliver it, along with the requirement to add in National, DET and School priorities.

JohnKnox said :

This would be because they hardly work the hours that entitle overtime / flex etc.
…With most lunches (apart from when they’re on duty) and classes like library studies and gym they do get an hour available here and there to do some admin work.

OMG! Your “teacher friends are from American movies… it all makes sense now!!! However, I’d like to point out, that in your own words in this quote, you have just identified that even during ‘breaks’ – teachers are performing day-to-day work tasks… administrative tasks and planning tasks take time out of class time, as does following up on student behaviour, supervising extra curricular activities, planning social activities, running assessment, marking/grading, staff social activities, sporting activities etc. When was the last time one of your “teacher friends” was able to meet you to catch up for a coffee (yet alone lunch) during a school day?

JohnKnox said :

they don’t work the same quantity of hours as the majority of the rest of the workforce.

Out of all the jobs I have experienced, the teaching profession is by far the busiest – and the trade off of having a few weeks in addition to those enjoyed by other workers is well justified.

JohnKnox said :

“teachers are hard done by and should be put on a pedestal for all to worship” religion will now come along to flame me.

Teachers don’t expect to be put on a pedestal – there certainly won’t be any standing idly by to allow you to continue to perpetuate myths about the teaching profession. Teaching is being devalued from the outside by attitudes like yours, not from the inside, reflective of the abilities and conditions of those *actually* in the profession.

I simply do not believe you have access to friends who teach – or if you do, the friends you have discussed these matters with are far from typical of the majority of staff in our schools, who are dedicated and professional hard workers, who well and truly earn the few extra privileges our profession enjoys over other streams of work. Whilst pay levels are certainly an issue – they are hardly the main drive for teachers to move out of the profession… nor are they a great contributing factor to drawing suitable people in. To cheapen the profession by tarring us all with the “you couldn’t possibly expect to be paid like REAL workers” brush is far from fair or reasonable, as teachers work just as hard and as many hours as anyone else earning the same, and generally more, pay… and they do this usually in conditions that no other Public Servant would be prepared to work in or under.

“Staffroom chatter is usually about cakes and dresses, it’s not a male environment,” says one male Cambridge PGCE student.

HOnestly – some people will whinge about anything.

The macho chatter at some places I’ve worked ranged from boring (cars etc) to crude, and it didn’t drive me out of my job.

Pommy bastard said :

By the way CSRI, it doesn’t matter whether the feminisation of the teaching profession is a real phenomena or not. (Though the briefest of searches would indicate it is real and recognised.)

If the PERCEPTION of the teaching profession is that of a feminised one, and that perception is inhibiting males from training as teachers, then it can be seen as a problem. (Taking as given for this discussion that male teachers are valued.)

… and of course they’re all pinko lesbian satan worshippers too.

Pommy bastard6:40 pm 22 Oct 10

By the way CSRI, it doesn’t matter whether the feminisation of the teaching profession is a real phenomena or not. (Though the briefest of searches would indicate it is real and recognised.)

If the PERCEPTION of the teaching profession is that of a feminised one, and that perception is inhibiting males from training as teachers, then it can be seen as a problem. (Taking as given for this discussion that male teachers are valued.)

colourful sydney racing identity said :

*gosh* I think you broke him.

I didn’t do it. Nobody saw me do it.

Pommy bastard5:46 pm 22 Oct 10

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Are you arguing that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’

And still wondering…

Sorry, I must have missed that in the blizzard of lies from Jim Jones.

There is evidence, as I have linked to, that men do not find the current teaching environment conmfortable to to it being female dominated.

Here is some of the evidence I have given, I can supply more if you wish.

Pommy bastard said :

1. The term the ‘feminisation of teaching’ is most frequently used to refer to the numerical domination of women teachers. It might also be used to infer that the greater number of women teachers has ensured that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’ (where classroom organisation and management, assessment practices, curriculum content are all sympathetic to girls and alienating for boys). (Paechter 2007; Forde 2008; see Skelton 2002 for further discussion of the term ‘feminisation of teaching’).

Pommy bastard said :

The Times Education Suppliment…

Research also suggests that women are better equipped than men for teaching in other ways too. For example, girls consistently outstrip boys at GCSE and A-level, and they carry on performing better into higher and further education.

“School is better for girls,” says Ms Braun. “And if school has worked for you, you are more likely to consider making it your career.”

Add to this pressure the fact that many men are dismayed by the absence of male companionship in primary schools.

“Staffroom chatter is usually about cakes and dresses, it’s not a male environment,” says one male Cambridge PGCE student.

And the feminisation of teaching has all the hallmarks of a self-perpetuating trend that, despite the best efforts of the Training and Development Agency for Schools – which recently established a panel of male primary teachers to help it improve the gender balance – may already have reached the point of no return

colourful sydney racing identity4:22 pm 22 Oct 10

colourful sydney racing identity said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Pommy bastard said :

1. The term the ‘feminisation of teaching’ is most frequently used to refer to the numerical domination of women teachers. It might also be used to infer that the greater number of women teachers has ensured that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’ (where classroom organisation and management, assessment practices, curriculum content are all sympathetic to girls and alienating for boys). (Paechter 2007; Forde 2008; see Skelton 2002 for further discussion of the term ‘feminisation of teaching’).

Nuff said?

Are you arguing that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’?

Still wondering…

And still wondering…

colourful sydney racing identity4:21 pm 22 Oct 10

*gosh* I think you broke him.

Pommy bastard4:21 pm 22 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Pommy bastard said :

I gave nine reasons why men may not want to become teachers.

You wished only to discuss one of them.

Oh, so, let me get this straight: you did say those things, but you said other things as well, so we shouldn’t talk about that?

Is that right?

No I stand by what I said,not what you lied about me saying, you were the one who wanted only to discuss the feministion of teaching, a point I have proven correct using evidence and sources.

You are the one who has lied as you have nothing else to offer.

Pommy bastard4:16 pm 22 Oct 10

The Lies of Jim Jones

Jim’s lie
But I’m a bit confused as to why you think having a lot of women around is a bad thing, or has a negative effect. Presumably you’re not suggesting that all the women are ganging up on the men or something silly like that.

PB
When you point out where I’ve said it’s “bad thing” or that it’s having a “negative effect” or where you think I’ve implied “all the women are ganging up on the men”, then that will deserve an answer.

Jim’s lie
Ah, this chestnut. Funny how everyone engaged in intellectual pursuits is (according to the right-wing) biased towards the left? Why do think that would be?
PB
Point out where I have said that “everyone engaged in intellectual pursuits is biased towards the left”, and you may deserve an answer.

Jim’s lie
As for the rest – stop getting so aggro. You’ve made some obvious gestures to the banal notion that it’s all the fault of the evil left-wing feminazi postmodern blah blah blah
PB
No that’s another clear example of what you do Jim, you make up things or attribute ideas to people. If you want to debate, then quote me, do not put words in my mouth, do not ascribe beliefs to me that you cannot show I have stated.

Jim’s lie
But you just said “When you point out where I’ve said it’s “bad thing” or that it’s having a “negative effect” then I’ll answer”. Really. WTF!?
PB
That’s where your reading comprehension difficulties cripple you again Jim, you read things which are not there. I stated that this was occurring, I made no value judgement on it.

Jim’s lie
That’s a dodgy argument and you know it. You haven’t presented any evidence that ‘left-wing, pc, feminist ideology’ has anything to do with the gender disparity, but you’re asking me to believe it because ‘there’s no other explanation’?
PB
I’ll give you my next months pay packet if you can point out where I said there was “no other explanation”, if you cannot, I will call you a liar. You even had the audacity to put it in quotes as if you were quoting me!

PB
“Political correctness is the law, not a good idea.”

Jim’s lie
:“As for ‘political correctness gone mad”
Jim’s lie
“the whole ‘political correctness is destroying our community’ talking point”

PB
“Is teaching dominated by people with left wing views, or right wing. No need to answer.

Jim’s lie
“Do you really want to drag this argument down to the level of: “male students are doing badly at school because of the evil left-wing socialist teachers?”

Jim’s lie
Oh I give up. You start to argue something and then get called on it and pull the whole ‘I didn’t say that, I didn’t place any value judgment on anything, I just said it was happening’.
PB
I gave several reasons why I thought men were not entering the profession. YOU decided only one of those was worth taking about.

Jim’s lie
You’ve gesticulated wildly towards ‘feminism, left-wing, PC’ being a negative influence on the educational system by posing a lot of loaded questions, and then weaseled your way out of taking an honest position.
PB

I have stated clearly on more than one occasion why I thought this MAY be an issue, and was open to debate. You however have brought nothing but “I don’t believe it” to the table

Jim’s lie
You can believe that it’s all because of PC, left-wing, feminists if you want (your only ‘evidence’ for this seems to be ‘I dare you to prove that it’s not wrong’).

PB
Another of your lies is that I “believe that it’s all because of PC, left-wing, feminists”.

I’ll also point out Jim, I have now brought evidence from five sources to the table, to back up my claims, one from the paper you called “the best in Europe”, and yet you have brought none.

I have also offered you my next month’s pay if you can point out where I said there was “no other explanation”, you haven’t had the honesty to attempt so.

So you’re lair and a coward, and an intellectual lightweight.

I’m more than happy to call you as such to your face if you wish.

You may now lie about me

Pommy bastard4:15 pm 22 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Pommy bastard said :

Yes, Jim you do tell a lot of lies.

So … you DIDN’T say:

Pommy bastard said :

There has been a “feminising” of all these types of profession to the point where male values, strengths and outlooks, are not so much despised as virtually illegal.

or

Pommy bastard said :

so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession

That’s odd, I could have sworn that you did.

Can you point out where I denied I’d said them?

Pommy bastard said :

Your mother must be ever so proud of you.

Oh yeah, she’s utterly appalled that I stir up reactionary wingnuts on the internet. She’s practically disowned me because of it.

colourful sydney racing identity4:04 pm 22 Oct 10

Pommy bastard said :

Jim Jones said :

Oooh, the feminazi, PC, left-wing conspiracy is at it again.

LIES LIES LIES

Yes, Jim you do tell a lot of lies.

An example.

I gave nine reasons why men may not want to become teachers.

You wished only to discuss one of them.

When we discussed that reason, you claimed that I had stated, and I quote you again “no other explanation” other than the one you had demanded we to debate.

You consistently lie in this debate, and then act like a child when your lies are exposed. Please continue doing so.

Each time I have called you a liar, I have quoted your post to show where you have lied.

Each time I call you a liar, it has been proven without doubt that you are.

Your mother must be ever so proud of you.

What were your nine reasons? I have looked at your post and I am coming up short.

Pommy bastard said :

I gave nine reasons why men may not want to become teachers.

You wished only to discuss one of them.

Oh, so, let me get this straight: you did say those things, but you said other things as well, so we shouldn’t talk about that?

Is that right?

colourful sydney racing identity3:59 pm 22 Oct 10

housebound said :

All that said (and ignoring that string of posts that could collectively be a FOTW), give me a classroom of 5 to 12 year olds any day. They often show better behaviour and more common sense than a boardroom/panel/workshop group of adults. And they’re more fun.

As evidenced in this thread 🙂

Pommy bastard said :

Yes, Jim you do tell a lot of lies.

So … you DIDN’T say:

Pommy bastard said :

There has been a “feminising” of all these types of profession to the point where male values, strengths and outlooks, are not so much despised as virtually illegal.

or

Pommy bastard said :

so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession

That’s odd, I could have sworn that you did.

colourful sydney racing identity3:58 pm 22 Oct 10

JohnKnox – correct me if I am misrepresenting you here, but, my understanding is that you believe that teachers have 12 weeks leave a year (during which time they don’t really have to do anything) and are only required to work from 9am – 3pm – is this correct?

All that said (and ignoring that string of posts that could collectively be a FOTW), give me a classroom of 5 to 12 year olds any day. They often show better behaviour and more common sense than a boardroom/panel/workshop group of adults. And they’re more fun.

Pommy bastard3:50 pm 22 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Oooh, the feminazi, PC, left-wing conspiracy is at it again.

LIES LIES LIES

Yes, Jim you do tell a lot of lies.

An example.

I gave nine reasons why men may not want to become teachers.

You wished only to discuss one of them.

When we discussed that reason, you claimed that I had stated, and I quote you again “no other explanation” other than the one you had demanded we to debate.

You consistently lie in this debate, and then act like a child when your lies are exposed. Please continue doing so.

Each time I have called you a liar, I have quoted your post to show where you have lied.

Each time I call you a liar, it has been proven without doubt that you are.

Your mother must be ever so proud of you.

JohnKnox said :

Go join Jim and continue your pointless flaming.

I resent that!

My flaming is not ‘pointless’, I get a lot of joy out of making PB go stark raving mad.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Pommy bastard said :

JohnKnox said :

How’s this for an idea people? How about we start talking about the topic and not about the writer of the opinions? I personally dont agree with Jethro’s comments #160 HOWEVER I absoutely applaud him(?) for keeping to the subject and putting context behind his arguments.

It’s a classic Jim technique, he will also ascribe views to you which you haven’t expressed, refuse to back up his points with evidence, and totally lie about what you have said.

See his post at #169 for a clear example.

It doesn’t make for good debate here, however as it’s all so easy to point out these cheats, and quote his lies, it does make his side of the debate easy to collapse without any effort..

Yes, your style is much better – make extreme statements and then back away from them claiming you have been misquoted.

Oh but I didn’t say that. I’ve been misquoted.

LIES LIES LIES

Look over there, an aeroplane!

On the whole ‘Jim Jones is an evil lier BLAH BLAH BLAH’

Let’s have a recap of the *cough* debate:

I suggested that a couple of your statements that seemed dubious:

1) “There has been a “feminising” of all these types of profession to the point where male values, strengths and outlooks, are not so much despised as virtually illegal.”

2) “[the education system is] so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession”

After a lengthy period of you denying that you’d said anything, eventually you explained what you meant by ‘feminisation of education’ (which amounts to little more than an imbalance of males and females in the profession), then refused to say anything more.

After some initial denials about your second statement proved too ridiculous to uphold (I particularly like the one where you claim you were misquoted because I omitted the word ‘and’), you point-blank refused to discuss your second statement and instead played the victim.

How, precisely, does this mean that my “side of the debate easy to collapse without any effort’?

I don’t even have a side of the debate. Poking fun at some spittle-flecked paranoid loon going nuts in true Glenn Beck fashion is not a ‘side’.

Keep it up though, it’s seriously great fun to watch you go nuts twisting and turning, all those new ways you can think up to distract attention from those silly, silly statements.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, what precisely are your ‘facts’ I should be debating?

Please remember opinion is not a fact.

Wow a post without calling the writer an ignorant retard or saying what would they know so shut up. I’m in shock…

…but back to your question. You are right opinion is not fact and I thank you for correcting me. And yes I’m basing my opinion on second hand information from teachers and observations not from first hand experience.

But my opinion still stands that teachers are given a wage that is justified for the job they do.

I’m NOT questioning whether they are lazy, I’m NOT questioning whether their job is more or less difficult than mine and I’m definately NOT saying that everyone else with a different opinion to mine is an ignorant retard or should shut the hell up.

Right, so you have put no facts on the table yet I am supposed to use facts to debate you?

SIGH … and there I was thinking we could start back on the topic but alas we join the tangent highway yet again…

I put just as much facts as everyone else has on this blog (including teachers). AND include yourself. Read the blog. There is NOT ONE fact in here. It’s just a bunch of he said, she said, I know, you dont opinions. Im more than happy to debate opinions, facts, information or whatever. However, there is a core group (who happen to be riotact regulars) that think debate means they are always right because … oh yeah it’s their opinion. Why have a blog about a subject if all the blog is is a group of people attacking writers? But hey I can see I’m talking to a brick wall here. So hey whatever. You win too. Go join Jim and continue your pointless flaming.

colourful sydney racing identity3:16 pm 22 Oct 10

Pommy bastard said :

JohnKnox said :

How’s this for an idea people? How about we start talking about the topic and not about the writer of the opinions? I personally dont agree with Jethro’s comments #160 HOWEVER I absoutely applaud him(?) for keeping to the subject and putting context behind his arguments.

It’s a classic Jim technique, he will also ascribe views to you which you haven’t expressed, refuse to back up his points with evidence, and totally lie about what you have said.

See his post at #169 for a clear example.

It doesn’t make for good debate here, however as it’s all so easy to point out these cheats, and quote his lies, it does make his side of the debate easy to collapse without any effort..

Yes, your style is much better – make extreme statements and then back away from them claiming you have been misquoted.

colourful sydney racing identity3:12 pm 22 Oct 10

JohnKnox said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, what precisely are your ‘facts’ I should be debating?

Please remember opinion is not a fact.

Wow a post without calling the writer an ignorant retard or saying what would they know so shut up. I’m in shock…

…but back to your question. You are right opinion is not fact and I thank you for correcting me. And yes I’m basing my opinion on second hand information from teachers and observations not from first hand experience.

But my opinion still stands that teachers are given a wage that is justified for the job they do.

I’m NOT questioning whether they are lazy, I’m NOT questioning whether their job is more or less difficult than mine and I’m definately NOT saying that everyone else with a different opinion to mine is an ignorant retard or should shut the hell up.

Right, so you have put no facts on the table yet I am supposed to use facts to debate you?

Pommy bastard said :

JohnKnox said :

How’s this for an idea people? How about we start talking about the topic and not about the writer of the opinions? I personally dont agree with Jethro’s comments #160 HOWEVER I absoutely applaud him(?) for keeping to the subject and putting context behind his arguments.

It’s a classic Jim technique, he will also ascribe views to you which you haven’t expressed, refuse to back up his points with evidence, and totally lie about what you have said.

See his post at #169 for a clear example.

It doesn’t make for good debate here, however as it’s all so easy to point out these cheats, and quote his lies, it does make his side of the debate easy to collapse without any effort..

Oooh, the feminazi, PC, left-wing conspiracy is at it again.

LIES LIES LIES

Jim Jones said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, what precisely are your ‘facts’ I should be debating?

Please remember opinion is not a fact.

Apparently the facts are as follows:

Fact 1: Everyone who has contributed to this thread (including a significant number of actual teachers) is wrong, JohnKnox is right.

Fact 2: Teachers are all lazy snobs.

Fact 3: If you disagree with JohnKnox then you are the worst thing about the internet; your cruel barbs are stabbing the internet directly in its heart and unless you stop, you may very well destroy the internet!

Jim – if you had simply stuck to the point of the thread then I would have shut up ages ago. But no instead you had to slur people who had differing opinions. I more than welcome the teachers that came on here and debated the SUBJECT. It’s nobs like you that attack the writers that p!ss me off. Before you get sarcy try reading the thread again. It wasn’t until people like you start calling names like RETARD and the like that I sent it back. Until then I was debating the topic (rememeber the topic? It’s the thing that started all this).

But hey I’ll tell you what. If coming onto the riotact and insulting people that dont have the agenda as you is what gets you off then I’ll help you. You win. Everything you say MUST be correct and I will never question you again. Happy? Good.

shadow boxer2:54 pm 22 Oct 10

“Droning in front of a room of adults who are all browsing allhomes is hardly the same as teaching children.

+2

Some people really have absolutely, and I stress absolutely, no idea what it is like to teach a bunch of feral year 9s or 10s.

Much rather the year 9’s than the bloke at my work with the cardigan and sandals that just wants to tell you how crap Microsoft is and why the world should go back VB5 😉

Pommy bastard2:52 pm 22 Oct 10

JohnKnox said :

How’s this for an idea people? How about we start talking about the topic and not about the writer of the opinions? I personally dont agree with Jethro’s comments #160 HOWEVER I absoutely applaud him(?) for keeping to the subject and putting context behind his arguments.

It’s a classic Jim technique, he will also ascribe views to you which you haven’t expressed, refuse to back up his points with evidence, and totally lie about what you have said.

See his post at #169 for a clear example.

It doesn’t make for good debate here, however as it’s all so easy to point out these cheats, and quote his lies, it does make his side of the debate easy to collapse without any effort..

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, what precisely are your ‘facts’ I should be debating?

Please remember opinion is not a fact.

Wow a post without calling the writer an ignorant retard or saying what would they know so shut up. I’m in shock…

…but back to your question. You are right opinion is not fact and I thank you for correcting me. And yes I’m basing my opinion on second hand information from teachers and observations not from first hand experience.

But my opinion still stands that teachers are given a wage that is justified for the job they do.

I’m NOT questioning whether they are lazy, I’m NOT questioning whether their job is more or less difficult than mine and I’m definately NOT saying that everyone else with a different opinion to mine is an ignorant retard or should shut the hell up.

colourful sydney racing identity2:41 pm 22 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, what precisely are your ‘facts’ I should be debating?

Please remember opinion is not a fact.

Apparently the facts are as follows:

Fact 1: Everyone who has contributed to this thread (including a significant number of actual teachers) is wrong, JohnKnox is right.

Fact 2: Teachers are all lazy snobs.

Fact 3: If you disagree with JohnKnox then you are the worst thing about the internet; your cruel barbs are stabbing the internet directly in its heart and unless you stop, you may very well destroy the internet!

Thanks Jim. Guess I will hang up the gloves and return to my ivory tower – I can’t argue with his logic.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, what precisely are your ‘facts’ I should be debating?

Please remember opinion is not a fact.

Apparently the facts are as follows:

Fact 1: Everyone who has contributed to this thread (including a significant number of actual teachers) is wrong, JohnKnox is right.

Fact 2: Teachers are all lazy snobs.

Fact 3: If you disagree with JohnKnox then you are the worst thing about the internet; your cruel barbs are stabbing the internet directly in its heart and unless you stop, you may very well destroy the internet!

colourful sydney racing identity2:27 pm 22 Oct 10

JohnKnox, what precisely are your ‘facts’ I should be debating?

Please remember opinion is not a fact.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, you clearly have no idea what it is like to be a teacher and should desist from making ill informed commentary.

Well I guess that finishes that debate. Wow such in depth arguments and … oh hang on there weren’t any arguments it was just you telling me to shut up.

This is why I love the Riotact. No matter what the debate we can always rely on a bunch regulars to come out with the usual responses:

Response #1: “I’m right you’re wrong, shut up, no one else is entitled to a different view from me, putting my fingers in my ears, la, la, la, la”

Jim Jones said :

Personally, I’d lean to categorise anyone who would call teachers ‘a bunch of snobs’ as an insecure anti-intellectual.

Response #2: “You have a differing opinion to me so I will insult you and look down upon you. I am so smart with my left wing intellect and you mortals should worship me” .

How’s this for an idea people? How about we start talking about the topic and not about the writer of the opinions? I personally dont agree with Jethro’s comments #160 HOWEVER I absoutely applaud him(?) for keeping to the subject and putting context behind his arguments.

There is no point entering into a debate with you about the subject matter as you have shown from your posts that you clearly have no understanding of it. Pretty much the same way there is no point in me discussing the arguments for a unicameral national legislature with my two and a half year old.

It really would be like mastrubating with a cheese grater, slightly; slightly entertaining but too painful.

…and back to the insults. What is it? No evidence to back your side up? Nothing soild you can use for your argument? Is that why we have to come out with the “you dont have my opinion so your a poo poo head” attitude? Ahhh the riotact regulars never let me down.

“The greatest thing about the internet is that it lets people voice differing opinions. The worst thing about the internet is that people think that others can’t voice opinions against theirs”

JohnKnox said :

Jim Jones said :

Personally, I’d lean to categorise anyone who would call teachers ‘a bunch of snobs’ as an insecure anti-intellectual.

Response #2: “You have a differing opinion to me so I will insult you and look down upon you. I am so smart with my left wing intellect and you mortals should worship me” .

I think you’ve rather proved my point with that post.

Thanks!

colourful sydney racing identity1:39 pm 22 Oct 10

JohnKnox said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, you clearly have no idea what it is like to be a teacher and should desist from making ill informed commentary.

Well I guess that finishes that debate. Wow such in depth arguments and … oh hang on there weren’t any arguments it was just you telling me to shut up.

This is why I love the Riotact. No matter what the debate we can always rely on a bunch regulars to come out with the usual responses:

Response #1: “I’m right you’re wrong, shut up, no one else is entitled to a different view from me, putting my fingers in my ears, la, la, la, la”

Jim Jones said :

Personally, I’d lean to categorise anyone who would call teachers ‘a bunch of snobs’ as an insecure anti-intellectual.

Response #2: “You have a differing opinion to me so I will insult you and look down upon you. I am so smart with my left wing intellect and you mortals should worship me” .

How’s this for an idea people? How about we start talking about the topic and not about the writer of the opinions? I personally dont agree with Jethro’s comments #160 HOWEVER I absoutely applaud him(?) for keeping to the subject and putting context behind his arguments.

There is no point entering into a debate with you about the subject matter as you have shown from your posts that you clearly have no understanding of it. Pretty much the same way there is no point in me discussing the arguments for a unicameral national legislature with my two and a half year old.

It really would be like mastrubating with a cheese grater, slightly; slightly entertaining but too painful.

I can’t believe this thread is still going.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

JohnKnox, you clearly have no idea what it is like to be a teacher and should desist from making ill informed commentary.

Well I guess that finishes that debate. Wow such in depth arguments and … oh hang on there weren’t any arguments it was just you telling me to shut up.

This is why I love the Riotact. No matter what the debate we can always rely on a bunch regulars to come out with the usual responses:

Response #1: “I’m right you’re wrong, shut up, no one else is entitled to a different view from me, putting my fingers in my ears, la, la, la, la”

Jim Jones said :

Personally, I’d lean to categorise anyone who would call teachers ‘a bunch of snobs’ as an insecure anti-intellectual.

Response #2: “You have a differing opinion to me so I will insult you and look down upon you. I am so smart with my left wing intellect and you mortals should worship me” .

How’s this for an idea people? How about we start talking about the topic and not about the writer of the opinions? I personally dont agree with Jethro’s comments #160 HOWEVER I absoutely applaud him(?) for keeping to the subject and putting context behind his arguments.

What about the people who call you ‘snobs’, Jethro?

Personally, I’d lean to categorise anyone who would call teachers ‘a bunch of snobs’ as an insecure anti-intellectual.

colourful sydney racing identity11:16 am 22 Oct 10

JohnKnox, you clearly have no idea what it is like to be a teacher and should desist from making ill informed commentary.

I personally don’t have a huge problem with the money. Of course a bit more would be nice, but I’m pretty sure anyone in any job would say that.

I do have a problem, however, with the people who continually call us lazy, say that the work is easy and that anyone could do it, who claim we work from 9 – 3 and nothing else and who are happy to otherwise devalue and put down a group of people who have dedicated themselves to a job that is actually very difficult, takes up a massive amount of time outside of paid hours and is providing something very positive for the rest of society.

shadow boxer said :

And we answered it before, a teachers pay is about right for the hours they work, unfortunately that is not enough money for most of us so we choose to work full time and get compensated accordingly.

Exactly – it’s that little thing called choice. When you make the choice you deal with the consequences. I choose to work a full time job hence I get paid for it. Teachers choose to work less hours and are therefore paid accordingly.

johnboy said :

Droning in front of a room of adults who are all browsing allhomes is hardly the same as teaching children.

As opposed to droning in front of a group of kids playing with their iphones? (Except only from 9-3.30 wekdays and not during school holidays).

I’m beginning to think that maybe the issue isn’t the industry but the snobs that are involved in it. “Oh we should be compared to doctors”. “Don’t compare us to common public servants”. “My job is much more important than a common IT trainer”.

johnboy said :

Droning in front of a room of adults who are all browsing allhomes is hardly the same as teaching children.

+3 Kids will shred those not up to the task.

colourful sydney racing identity9:34 am 22 Oct 10

johnboy said :

Droning in front of a room of adults who are all browsing allhomes is hardly the same as teaching children.

+1

shadow boxer9:19 am 22 Oct 10

Jethro said :

JohnKnox said :

Grotto said :

Anyway I’m sure the Mullahs of the “teachers are hard done by and should be put on a pedestal for all to worship” religion will now come along to flame me. But at the end of the day no one seems to be able to prove that teachers work any harder than the rest of us. Until someone can prove this I stand by my opinions.

So on that note I bid you Adieux

No, it has all been said before. I will, however, repeat a question I asked someone else a while back in this thread. If it is such an easy job with short hours and awesome holidays, why aren’t you doing it?

And we answered it before, a teachers pay is about right for the hours they work, unfortunately that is not enough money for most of us so we choose to work full time and get compensated accordingly.

btw, I showed some of this to the full time IT trainer at our work, he teaches 8 hours a day every day and found it amusing.

Droning in front of a room of adults who are all browsing allhomes is hardly the same as teaching children.

JohnKnox said :

Grotto said :

Anyway I’m sure the Mullahs of the “teachers are hard done by and should be put on a pedestal for all to worship” religion will now come along to flame me. But at the end of the day no one seems to be able to prove that teachers work any harder than the rest of us. Until someone can prove this I stand by my opinions.

So on that note I bid you Adieux

No, it has all been said before. I will, however, repeat a question I asked someone else a while back in this thread. If it is such an easy job with short hours and awesome holidays, why aren’t you doing it?

Grotto said :

Grotto Said: “Teachers do not get the holidays off, rather they spend many hours planning and attending professional development sessions.”

Really? No holidays? 12 weeks planning / training? This was so amazing to me that I just had to go ask my teachers friends how true it was and… guess what all but one said yes they did have to go to a couple of days training but most of the professional development comprised of being given a work book to complete by the end of the holidays (which of course most did the night before like all of us do). But still free training provided by your employer is a pretty good deal wouldn’t you say?
As for planning apparently the hard work is done in the first year of teaching when you develop your first plan. After that you just have to amend it here and there. I’d say that that hardly sounds like 12 weeks worth of intense workload.

Grotto said :

Grotto Said: “The teaching profession is one of the only public service positions with no recognition of additional work hours. Teachers are not entitled to over time, time in lieu or flex time.”

Going back to my original point. This would be because they hardly work the hours that entitle overtime / flex etc.

Grotto said :

Grotto Said: “Teachers must take their holidays during the peek period over the christmas break. “

As opposed to myself (with kids) that … oh wait as to take his holidays during the peek time as that’s when the school holidays are.

Grotto said :

Grotto Said: “There are a magnitude of meetings and additional commitments teachers must attend to after face to face hours. All planning, parent/carer correspondence, collaboration with colleagues must be done after 3:30.”

Again I asked about this and most said it’s not like they are face to face all day. With most lunches (apart from when they’re on duty) and classes like library studies and gym they do get an hour available here and there to do some admin work. As for planning (see above) … Oh yeah and on that note explain to me why even my kid’s reports and just the same note with a word changed here or there. Why? Because cut and paste has made the world so much easier.

Grotto said :

Grotto Said: “It is an offensive assumption that teachers work 9 to 3 and get 12 weeks off each year. The reality is so much different and it is generalisations like this that devalue the teaching profession and make the retention and recruitment of quality educators next to impossible.”

Wow you finally solved it. The whole reason people are leaving the profession is because other are seeing that they don’t work the same quantity of hours as the majority of the rest of the workforce. … and I thought it was so much more complex than that.
Anyway I’m sure the Mullahs of the “teachers are hard done by and should be put on a pedestal for all to worship” religion will now come along to flame me. But at the end of the day no one seems to be able to prove that teachers work any harder than the rest of us. Until someone can prove this I stand by my opinions.

So on that note I bid you Adieux

Katietonia said :

JohnKnox said :

“Crap pay? Seems to me the pay is about right for the hours teachers have to work. I mean seriously you expect teachers to be paid the same as people doing 9+ hours per day jobs for 51 weeks of the year? Start working real times then we’ll talk about getting real wages.

Obviously you don’t know any teachers, or you’d know that they have to teach during core hours which they are paid for, but when do you think lesson planning, marking, etc is done?
At home in their own hours most of the time.

Well obviously you dont know me. Because I actually know a number of people in the teaching profession. That’s where my facts come from. But hey let’s attack the writer and avoid the actual topic shall we? *cough* Call sign of the desperate.

But back to the topic. Can you really convince people that they work 9+ hour days every day for an entire (standard persons) working year? Geez do they even work the standard APS hours of 7.5 hours per day?
Let’s assume they wild assumption that they do work 9+ hours per day. Can you convince people that teacher’s work so much more extra hours in their own time that it covers the fact they get all the school holidays off? Seriously, those figures just don’t add up.”

Wow. Anyone that actually knows anything about the teaching profession or genuinely talks with a teacher about their job understands that teachers work well in excess of the “required APS 7.5 hours per day”. Teachers do not get the holidays off, rather they spend many hours planning and attending professional development sessions. The teaching profession is one of the only public service positions with no recognition of additional work hours. Teachers are not entitled to over time, time in lieu or flex time. Teachers must take their holidays during the peek period over the christmas break. There are a magnitude of meetings and additional commitments teachers must attend to after face to face hours. All planning, parent/carer correspondence, collaboration with colleagues must be done after 3:30.

It is an offensive assumption that teachers work 9 to 3 and get 12 weeks off each year. The reality is so much different and it is generalisations like this that devalue the teaching profession and make the retention and recruitment of quality educators next to impossible.

colourful sydney racing identity10:00 am 18 Oct 10

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Pommy bastard said :

1. The term the ‘feminisation of teaching’ is most frequently used to refer to the numerical domination of women teachers. It might also be used to infer that the greater number of women teachers has ensured that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’ (where classroom organisation and management, assessment practices, curriculum content are all sympathetic to girls and alienating for boys). (Paechter 2007; Forde 2008; see Skelton 2002 for further discussion of the term ‘feminisation of teaching’).

Nuff said?

Are you arguing that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’?

Still wondering…

JohnKnox said :

Well obviously you dont know me. Because I actually know a number of people in the teaching profession. That’s where my facts come from.

Feel free to share with us all, some of the ‘facts’ of the luxurious conditions your teacher friends are have regaled you with…

JohnKnox said :

Obviously you don’t know any teachers, or you’d know that they have to teach during core hours which they are paid for, but when do you think lesson planning, marking, etc is done?
At home in their own hours most of the time.

…But hey let’s attack the writer and avoid the actual topic shall we? *cough* Call sign of the desperate.

Just how was that an attack, avoiding the topic?

Hells_Bells741:49 pm 16 Oct 10

clp said :

Surely the 6 hours they are technically at school is all face-to-face – for those who can only understand it in public servant terms – imagine you have to stand and present to 20+ people for 5 hours a day/5 days a week. Imagine also that those people are not professional colleagues or interested parties but a somewhat unruly mob at times.

I earn more than teachers in a more “valued” profession and I would find this really challenging – as would most people on here no doubt.

The work hours certainly have more flexibility in them and thats why its more attractive to women who usually are the primary carers of their own children.

Plus you have to face the denigration of people who hold some rather extreme views about teachers.

Whatever way you look at it – teaching is an incredibly responsible profession and we as a society should do all we can promote the role – its our kids who are being taught after all.

Well they were my thoughts dotted across the read too.

+1 and nice work framing it together nicely, clp.

Surely the 6 hours they are technically at school is all face-to-face – for those who can only understand it in public servant terms – imagine you have to stand and present to 20+ people for 5 hours a day/5 days a week. Imagine also that those people are not professional colleagues or interested parties but a somewhat unruly mob at times.

I earn more than teachers in a more “valued” profession and I would find this really challenging – as would most people on here no doubt.

The work hours certainly have more flexibility in them and thats why its more attractive to women who usually are the primary carers of their own children.

Plus you have to face the denigration of people who hold some rather extreme views about teachers.

Whatever way you look at it – teaching is an incredibly responsible profession and we as a society should do all we can promote the role – its our kids who are being taught after all.

Pommy bastard6:58 pm 15 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Now, would you care to elaborate on the connection between the feminisation of education and the role played by “left wing/PC/feminist ideology”, or do you want to continue denying that you said it?

.

Another lie, can you point out where I denied I said that?

Please?

Pommy bastard6:53 pm 15 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Let me get this straight, you’re actually arguing that you’ve been misquoted (LIES LIES LIES) because I left out the word ‘and’ in your statement that “And because it has been so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession”?

That’s right, it changes the context of that statement.

But teh previous proven and quoted lies are still all there.

Now, would you care to elaborate on the connection between the feminisation of education and the role played by “left wing/PC/feminist ideology”, or do you want to continue denying that you said it?

Nope I won’t Jim.

Let’s turn this on its head, and get some fair play going;
Here you go…

If you do not believe it is due to the feminisation of the profession Jim, why do you think there are so few males becoming teachers?

(your answer)…………………………………………………………………
…………………………………………………………………………….

(your evidence)………………………………………………………………..
……………………………………………………………………………..

JohnKnox said :

Crap pay? Seems to me the pay is about right for the hours teachers have to work. I mean seriously you expect teachers to be paid the same as people doing 9+ hours per day jobs for 51 weeks of the year? Start working real times then we’ll talk about getting real wages.

Obviously you don’t know any teachers, or you’d know that they have to teach during core hours which they are paid for, but when do you think lesson planning, marking, etc is done?
At home in their own hours most of the time.

Well obviously you dont know me. Because I actually know a number of people in the teaching profession. That’s where my facts come from. But hey let’s attack the writer and avoid the actual topic shall we? *cough* Call sign of the desperate.

But back to the topic. Can you really convince people that they work 9+ hour days every day for an entire (standard persons) working year? Geez do they even work the standard APS hours of 7.5 hours per day?
Let’s assume they wild assumption that they do work 9+ hours per day. Can you convince people that teacher’s work so much more extra hours in their own time that it covers the fact they get all the school holidays off? Seriously, those figures just don’t add up.

Let me get this straight, you’re actually arguing that you’ve been misquoted (LIES LIES LIES) because I left out the word ‘and’ in your statement that “And because it has been so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession”?

Dude, seriously. Have a few ands, on the house:

and and and and and

There you go.

Now, would you care to elaborate on the connection between the feminisation of education and the role played by “left wing/PC/feminist ideology”, or do you want to continue denying that you said it?

PS – keep doing the ‘GAME SET MATCH PB!!!’ thing. I love it. Particularly when it’s next to statements about people acting like a ‘spoiled child’.

Pommy bastard5:10 pm 15 Oct 10

The Times Education Suppliment…

Research also suggests that women are better equipped than men for teaching in other ways too. For example, girls consistently outstrip boys at GCSE and A-level, and they carry on performing better into higher and further education.

“School is better for girls,” says Ms Braun. “And if school has worked for you, you are more likely to consider making it your career.”

Add to this pressure the fact that many men are dismayed by the absence of male companionship in primary schools.

“Staffroom chatter is usually about cakes and dresses, it’s not a male environment,” says one male Cambridge PGCE student.

And the feminisation of teaching has all the hallmarks of a self-perpetuating trend that, despite the best efforts of the Training and Development Agency for Schools – which recently established a panel of male primary teachers to help it improve the gender balance – may already have reached the point of no return

Pommy bastard5:06 pm 15 Oct 10

From a “feminist critique” of he gender inbalance in teching.

The conclusion to be drawn is that gender does, to some extent, influence initial decisions to consider primary teaching as a career and one of the reasons for this might be the ‘social construction of teaching as feminine, and the numerical dominance of women in teaching’, meaning that girls more than boys are likely to ‘see teaching as an “appropriate” signifier of gender category maintenance (see Davies 1989)’ (Hutchings et al. 2007, 11).

Pommy bastard4:46 pm 15 Oct 10

sepi said :

So men who feel marginalised and unwelcome in teaching, which is mostly female, should be pitied and helped out, but women who feel marginalised and unwelcome in boardrooms, which are mostly male, should just get on with it??

Yep, that’s just what everyone’s been saying!! Well done…

colourful sydney racing identity4:41 pm 15 Oct 10

Pommy bastard said :

How did Jim’s post change between my quoting it?

Uh-huh. The post changed, I’ve been misquoted, where did I leave my teeth????

So men who feel marginalised and unwelcome in teaching, which is mostly female, should be pitied and helped out, but women who feel marginalised and unwelcome in boardrooms, which are mostly male, should just get on with it??

Pommy bastard4:12 pm 15 Oct 10

How did Jim’s post change between my quoting it?

Pommy bastard4:11 pm 15 Oct 10

Jesus, you cannot help but lie can you Jim?

The actual quote (which refers to previous points raised)

Pommy bastard said :

Jim Jones said :

It’s cool PB, it’s all in good spirits.

And because it has been so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession.

What Jim posted

Jim Jones said :

so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession

Funny that the “and” which linked my point to the rest of the issues, showing this was not the only reason has gone missing!

How could that be? Surely Jim wouldn’t “selectively quote” to alter meaning?

Pommy bastard said :

I have brought eveidence to back up my claims, you have brought none.

A link to a Guardian article that says that boys do better in exams than girls?

Yes that plus several other sets of staistics;

here’s some (UK) stats to think about,
25% of UK primary schools have no male teachers.
By the age of five, 53% of boys have reached the expected level in writing compared with 72% of girls.
Boys are also three and a half times more likely to be permanently excluded from school.
In GCSEs , 31% of boys achieved five A-C grades, compared with 38% of girls.
In the NHS nearly 60 per cent of first year student doctors last year were women, as were nearly half of second year doctors.
Significantly more women than men accepted a place at medical and dentistry schools last year, with 5,128 women enrolling compared to only 3,929 men.
Only 13 per cent of newly qualified primary teachers are men.
51% of girls now enter higher education compared to 40% of boys. A gender education gap of 11%.
One in ten men (10.3%) who graduated with a degree last year is unemployed, compared with 6.3% women.
Only 123,827, or 25 per cent, of the 490,981 registered working teachers are men, with the majority in secondary schools and further education.
Figures and analysis published by the Higher Education Policy Institute shows that whilst 49% of girls are going onto university only 38% of men are.

But hey, they are all trumped by your “I don’t believe it.”

Hoisted once more on your own petard Jim…

Pommy bastard said :

The problem may be that Jim read “feminist” for “feminisation”, (just as he read; “Is teaching dominated by people with left wing views, or right wing,” as “male students are doing badly at school because of the evil left-wing socialist teachers”) and has gone off on his pet hobby horse.

Pommy bastard said :

And because it has been so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession

I think you may be a bit confused, PB.

colourful sydney racing identity4:09 pm 15 Oct 10

Pommy bastard said :

1. The term the ‘feminisation of teaching’ is most frequently used to refer to the numerical domination of women teachers. It might also be used to infer that the greater number of women teachers has ensured that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’ (where classroom organisation and management, assessment practices, curriculum content are all sympathetic to girls and alienating for boys). (Paechter 2007; Forde 2008; see Skelton 2002 for further discussion of the term ‘feminisation of teaching’).

Nuff said?

Are you arguing that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’?

And here I thought ‘Feminisation’ must have something to do with being able to read between the lines and comprehend unstated meanings. Which are not always damned lies. Unless the bulk of literature is just a gigantic con.

Pommy bastard said :

1. The term the ‘feminisation of teaching’ is most frequently used to refer to the numerical domination of women teachers. It might also be used to infer that the greater number of women teachers has ensured that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’ (where classroom organisation and management, assessment practices, curriculum content are all sympathetic to girls and alienating for boys). (Paechter 2007; Forde 2008; see Skelton 2002 for further discussion of the term ‘feminisation of teaching’).

Nuff said?

Dear God. Finally, an answer. You’ve only been asked what you mean about 10 times.

I’d be interested in seeing some info on that – have you got the full refs handy?

Finally, how does the feminisation of teaching (there are more women teachers than male) relate to your statement that the education system is “so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession”?

Ah, that last bit was just nasty, I can’t help myself. ;>

colourful sydney racing identity4:00 pm 15 Oct 10

Calm down princess.

So by ‘feminisation’ you are refering to an increase in the proportion of female teachers?

Just want to be sure as I would hate to incur your web-wrath should I misquote you.

georgesgenitals3:44 pm 15 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

georgesgenitals said :

I actually think it’s a good thing that not much separates working and middle classes in Australia.

Education!

Depends how you define the classes, really. Education is one way. There’s probably a few others, some economic related.

Pommy bastard3:38 pm 15 Oct 10

1. The term the ‘feminisation of teaching’ is most frequently used to refer to the numerical domination of women teachers. It might also be used to infer that the greater number of women teachers has ensured that the climate of schools has become too ‘feminine’ or ‘girl-friendly’ (where classroom organisation and management, assessment practices, curriculum content are all sympathetic to girls and alienating for boys). (Paechter 2007; Forde 2008; see Skelton 2002 for further discussion of the term ‘feminisation of teaching’).

Nuff said?

Pommy bastard said :

Another of your lies is that I “believe that it’s all because of PC, left-wing, feminists”.

Pommy bastard said :

so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession

Pommy bastard said :

I have brought eveidence to back up my claims, you have brought none.

A link to a Guardian article that says that boys do better in exams than girls?

Pommy bastard3:29 pm 15 Oct 10

Dear god, spoon feeding time.

The work force in schools has over time become predominantly female. In terms of the question posed in the original post “why are men not talking up teaching as a profession,” the fact that teaching is now predominantly female, with (nasty “evidence” alert) “Only 123,827, or 25 per cent, of the 490,981 registered working teachers (in the UK) are men, with the majority in secondary schools and further education” men may not find that an attractive prospect. So the very fact that a clear majority of teachers are now female, may, of itself, perpetuate the lack of males in the teaching system.

Here’s some of that pesky evidence stuff Jim.

Patrick Nash, chief executive of the Teacher Support Network, believes isolation is a key issue. ‘We often hear from men who are the only male teacher in their school. These men feel a sense of isolation and find it hard to talk to female colleagues about certain issues or admit they are having difficulties at work,’ he said in a BBC News interview.

There is also a problem with male teachers being stereotyped in primary schools as ‘the best person to teach Year 6’ or ‘the best person to discipline the difficult boys’. This can keep men out of the early years, for example, and deny them a sufficient range of teaching to allow them to feel fulfilled in their role.

Social stereotyping also conspires to keep men out of primary schools. Teaching can be perceived as a ‘girls’ job’ and some men find it difficult to challenge this prejudice when it is expressed by family or friends. Worse are the unspoken taboos – if you are a man and you teach young children you must be either a homosexual or a paedophile, some may think. For many young men the fear of being ‘different’ is enough to keep them out of teaching.

http://www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/primary-teaching-will-it-always-be-a-womans-world-1541

The problem may be that Jim read “feminist” for “feminisation”, (just as he read; “Is teaching dominated by people with left wing views, or right wing,” as “male students are doing badly at school because of the evil left-wing socialist teachers”) and has gone off on his pet hobby horse.

In teh same way as he did not want to debate the other 9 reasons I gave why men may not want to come into the teaching profession, so he could concentrate on his own little feminist ideas.

shadow boxer3:27 pm 15 Oct 10

johnboy said :

Bogans have bigger TVs, houses, and cars than I do. Bogan isn’t about money.

Quite true, I think they even have acronyms for them now, CUB (Cashed up Bogan) or the NAB (New age Bogan)

georgesgenitals said :

I actually think it’s a good thing that not much separates working and middle classes in Australia.

Education!

colourful sydney racing identity said :

PB, in all sincerity and out of genuine interest what do you mean by feminisation of the (education) system?

+1

colourful sydney racing identity3:00 pm 15 Oct 10

But what does that mean?

Pommy bastard2:52 pm 15 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Whatever PB – you’ve made a bunch of claims, provided no evidence, and then pulled the usual weaseling away from prior claims and accusation of lying.

You can believe that it’s all because of PC, left-wing, feminists if you want (your only ‘evidence’ for this seems to be ‘I dare you to prove that it’s not wrong’).

I’ll use my brain instead.

No, what I’ve done is proven, quoting your own words, where you have lied.

Another of your lies is that I have been “weaseling away from prior claims”, I stand by all my claims. I do not stand by the words you, as a liar, have artibuted to me.

Another of your lies is that I “believe that it’s all because of PC, left-wing, feminists”.

You are a liar Jim, I have proved this.

I have brought eveidence to back up my claims, you have brought none.

Game set and match to me I believe.

You act like a spoiled child who cannot believe that anyone dare have the temerity to have a different view to him.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

PB, in all sincerity and out of genuine interest what do you mean by feminisation of the (education) system?

I’ll refer you to an answer I gave earlier; (edited for brevity)

Pommy bastard said :

here’s some (UK) stats to think about,
25% of UK primary schools have no male teachers.
By the age of five, 53% of boys have reached the expected level in writing compared with 72% of girls.
Only 13 per cent of newly qualified primary teachers are men.
51% of girls now enter higher education compared to 40% of boys. A gender education gap of 11%.
One in ten men (10.3%) who graduated with a degree last year is unemployed, compared with 6.3% women.
Only 123,827, or 25 per cent, of the 490,981 registered working teachers are men, with the majority in secondary schools and further education.
Figures and analysis published by the Higher Education Policy Institute shows that whilst 49% of girls are going onto university only 38% of men are.

This article from the (loony) left paper “The Guardian” makes for interesting reading too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/09/education-male-female-gap

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/09/education-male-female-gap

colourful sydney racing identity2:32 pm 15 Oct 10

PB, in all sincerity and out of genuine interest what do you mean by feminisation of the (education) system?

georgesgenitals2:29 pm 15 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

It’s perhaps because of the peculiar permeability of the divide between working class and middle class that there’s such a lot of talk about ‘bogans’ at the moment – it’s a middle-class expression of class superiority, motivated in part by recognition that there’s actually very little to separate bogans from the middle class.

Yeah, the whole bogan thing is interesting when you look at it. Perhaps we could think of ‘bogan’ as more of a scale than an absolute.

I actually think it’s a good thing that not much separates working and middle classes in Australia. For me it meant having opportunities that would not have existed had I lived in another time or place.

johnboy said :

Bogans have bigger TVs, houses, and cars than I do. Bogan isn’t about money.

Class distinctions aren’t about money either.

Ask anyone British. You don’t become upper class just because you’re cashed up.

georgesgenitals said :

Jim Jones said :

The divide between the rich and poor is widest it’s been for at least 50 years (with 1% of people having 10% of the income). And although we’re faring better than the US in this regard, the division does look to be increasing.

We may lack the solid class divisions of Britain, but if you think that we don’t have class divisions, just have a browse through RiotAct and look at the characterisation of bogans.

It’s an interesting discussion. I think the ‘boundaries between classes’, if such things really exist, is quite blurred in Australia. Although we have a small number of very rich people, the gap between the working and middle classes isn’t really that big. Of course, we have a wealhty country to thanks to for that. It’s also possible, normal even, for people to move between classes.

While I also agree that really high levels of wealth is not normal with that hard work and can do attitude, it is certainly possible for those individuals to significantly improve their wealth position.

Yer probably on the money there.

It’s perhaps because of the peculiar permeability of the divide between working class and middle class that there’s such a lot of talk about ‘bogans’ at the moment – it’s a middle-class expression of class superiority, motivated in part by recognition that there’s actually very little to separate bogans from the middle class.

Bogans have bigger TVs, houses, and cars than I do. Bogan isn’t about money.

Jim Jones said :

Whatever PB – you’ve made a bunch of claims, provided no evidence, and then pulled the usual weaseling away from prior claims and accusation of lying.

You can believe that it’s all because of PC, left-wing, feminists if you want (your only ‘evidence’ for this seems to be ‘I dare you to prove that it’s not wrong’).

I’ll use my brain instead.

Pot this is kettle, plenty of times you have made claims here and when asked to back em up ……. Crickets is the only thing we hear. Your apparent enjoyment of belittling people here is somewhat tiresome sometimes, yawn

Whatever PB – you’ve made a bunch of claims, provided no evidence, and then pulled the usual weaseling away from prior claims and accusation of lying.

You can believe that it’s all because of PC, left-wing, feminists if you want (your only ‘evidence’ for this seems to be ‘I dare you to prove that it’s not wrong’).

I’ll use my brain instead.

Jim Jones said :

Our standard of living has never been higher and we rank very highly in education on a global scale. Sure, we can always work to do better, but the whole “we’re doomed, doooooomed” line is starting to get tired.

You’ll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Pommy bastard11:02 am 15 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Oh I give up. You start to argue something and then get called on it and pull the whole ‘I didn’t say that, I didn’t place any value judgment on anything, I just said it was happening’.

Lie number one.

I gave several reasons why I thought men were not entering the profession.YOU decided only one of those was worth taking about.

Pommy bastard said :

Jim, I think there’s little point in us discussing what I believe the feminising of the professions is, or what we consider political correctness gone to far, as we come from very different standpoints,and it would only derail the thrust of this debate.

Jim Jones said :

Nah, derail away.

Honestly, if you have any evidence of ‘political correctness’ or ‘anti-masculine ideology’ derailing the education system, I’d be very keen to see it.
.

Hoisted on your own petard there Jim, (and you lied about what I had said in that post too.)

Jim Jones said :

You’ve gesticulated wildly towards ‘feminism, left-wing, PC’ being a negative influence on the educational system by posing a lot of loaded questions, and then weaseled your way out of taking an honest position.

Lie number two.
I have stated clearly on more than one occasion why I thought this MAY be an issue, and was open to debate. You however have brought nothing but “I don’t believe it” to the table.

Jim Jones said :

“so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession”

Yes, that was a point I made. Where is your refutation?

Jim Jones said :

There have been numerous (unanswered) questions about how more females than males in the profession serves to ‘feminise’ the profession and make males unwelcome – followed by ‘heavily biased towards female and feminist principles’ – again an unexplained statement that relies on the idea that females and feminist principles are antipathetical to men. You haven’t explained what these ‘female values’ are, nor why they are damaging to men. When pulled up on it … ‘I didn’t say that, I didn’t say that’.

And you have not refuted them. I have provided information from many sources, including a newspaper you claim to be “The best in Europe”, you have countered with nothing. Your whole input in this debate has been “I don’t believe it, prove it to me me some more”. Not forgetting of course, that it was YOU who only wanted to debate this one of the many reasons I gave.,

Jim Jones said :

All you’ve managed to demonstrate so far is that ‘there are more female teachers than males teachers’, which was the starting point FFS, and the fact that you think being male is antipathetical to feminism, left-wing and PC.

You still haven’t provided even the most basic evidence that any of this actually exists.

Well seeing as it is YOU who only wanted to debate that one point of the many I made, how about you bring some proof of anything to the table. Jim, you are so egotistical that you think your “I don’t believe it to be true” is evidence enough. And you consistently lie about what I have said. Why on earth should I keep giving you more, when you offer nothing in return, and lie and twist what I have said??

Jim Jones said :

Perhaps I should ask the same questions again – I’m getting tired of posing them. Because you haven’t answered.

Perhaps instead of demanding I answer you, and then offering nothing but; “I don’t believe it” in return, you should actuality try entering into the debate, either by offering a different hypothesis, or offering contrary evidence.

What is your theory Jim? You haven’t been brave enough to give us it?
Where is your evidence Jim?

Why do you have to lie about what is said?

Jim Jones said :

“Political correctness is the law, not a good idea.”

Give an example, perhaps? I hesitate to make generalisations, but the only people I’ve seen that make claims like this generally do it because they’ve been criticised for being bigoted (the ‘political correctness’ screed is beloved of right-wing radio shock jocks who love to fire up their audiences with tales of how single-mothers, lesbians and Aborigines are ruining the country … also beloved by people who say things like ‘I’m not a racist, but’).

Classic Jim utter classic. No refutation of what I said, no evidence to the contrary, just more smears and lies.

Jim Jones said :

“Will that HUGE preponderance of females in the profession not lead to feminisation of the system? If not, how not?”

What do you mean by feminisation? How is this a bad thing for males?

Answer the question (preferably without lying, smearing or making up sh!t I have not said), and I may answer you.

Nothing to say about this Jim?

I’ll give you my next months pay packet if you can point out where I said there was “no other explanation”, if you cannot, I will call you a liar. Can you tell me how asking you for your thoughts on why this occurs is translated into “there is no other explanation”

Let me remind you of something Jim, I was the one who posited the idea of female dominance in the profession as ONE aspect of MAYBE why men are not entering the profession. It was one of MANY reasons I gave.

However, someone insisted we discuss just that one, ..errrmm… that would be YOU wouldn’t it. I gave many reasons, you have given none. I gave my thoughts, you have only asked questions.

You have also made these remarkable “retranslations”;

PB says: “Political correctness is the law, not a good idea.”;
Jim translates: “As for ‘political correctness gone mad”
Jim translates: </b “the whole ‘political correctness is destroying our community’ talking point”

PB says:

“Will that HUGE preponderance of females in the profession not lead to feminisation of the system? If not, how not?”
Jim translates: “Presumably you’re not suggesting that all the women are ganging up on the men or something silly like that.”

PB says: “Is teaching dominated by people with left wing views, or right wing. No need to answer.
Jim translates: “Do you really want to drag this argument down to the level of: “male students are doing badly at school because of the evil left-wing socialist teachers?”

PB says: “Debate what is said, not what you have made up.”
Jim translates: As for the rest – stop getting so aggro. You’ve made some obvious gestures to the banal notion that it’s all the fault of the evil left-wing feminazi postmodern blah blah blah

Jim, stop lying, bring some evidence, give me YOUR theory, then we can have a debate.

georgesgenitals10:43 am 15 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

The divide between the rich and poor is widest it’s been for at least 50 years (with 1% of people having 10% of the income). And although we’re faring better than the US in this regard, the division does look to be increasing.

We may lack the solid class divisions of Britain, but if you think that we don’t have class divisions, just have a browse through RiotAct and look at the characterisation of bogans.

It’s an interesting discussion. I think the ‘boundaries between classes’, if such things really exist, is quite blurred in Australia. Although we have a small number of very rich people, the gap between the working and middle classes isn’t really that big. Of course, we have a wealhty country to thanks to for that. It’s also possible, normal even, for people to move between classes.

While I also agree that really high levels of wealth is not normal with that hard work and can do attitude, it is certainly possible for those individuals to significantly improve their wealth position.

johnboy said :

The Guardian can’t even spell its name right and was consistently on the wrong side of every major issue in the 20th century.

Wow JB, I didn’t realize you had such reactionary views. I always thought it was a joke when you called the Chief Minister “Comrade Stanhope”, but could it be you really would prefer a military coup and decades of right-wing dictatorship under our very own version of Franco? Maybe he’d even repeal some of that other socialist nonsense the Grauniad supported, like women’s suffrage.

shadow boxer said :

Australia would surely be the worlds most classless society though…generally speaking our rich are not that rich and our poor are not that poor and our minorities are treated the same as everyone else.

Sadly that’s not true.

The divide between the rich and poor is widest it’s been for at least 50 years (with 1% of people having 10% of the income). And although we’re faring better than the US in this regard, the division does look to be increasing.

We may lack the solid class divisions of Britain, but if you think that we don’t have class divisions, just have a browse through RiotAct and look at the characterisation of bogans.

We don’t rank too badly when it comes to equal gender rights (I think that globally we’re about 23, and have recently dropped a few places), but our appalling treatment of Aborigines is a national shame and is regularly raised at the UN.

shadow boxer10:03 am 15 Oct 10

I assumed he/she is a teacher from the last paragraph.

You are right, the teachers I know are dedicated, hard working individuals that care greatly for their students.

Australia would surely be the worlds most classless society though…generally speaking our rich are not that rich and our poor are not that poor and our minorities are treated the same as everyone else.

The only thing letting us down is probably our Indigenous community that still suffers greatly.

shadow boxer said :

Good example from Clueless of why my kids will never see the inside of a public school, are you really teaching kids this nonsense ?

He didn’t identify himself as a teacher. Honestly, I don’t think many teachers would agree with his analysis anyway.

It’s pretty classic Marxist analysis, which (in my opinion) really doesn’t a whole heap of validity when dealing with the complexities of 21st century globalised societies.

That sort of class analysis doesn’t work in regards to Australia (or America) either. The 19th Century British class system is a completely different beast to the complex social and economic markers that we use.

shadow boxer said :

It’s intersting your claim of a class system when our richest people are people like Dick Smith, Jerry Harvey, Aussie John Symons and Twiggy Forrest.

They are well known wealthy Australians precisely because of their social mobility.

The bulk of extremely wealthy Australians *do* come from privileged backgrounds, they just aren’t as publicly known. This is not to deny that social mobility occurs, just to dispel the myth that significant wealth occurs through virtue of hard work and ‘can-do’ attitude.

And really, let’s put the whole “industrial society as a whole has lost its way spiritually, ecologically and philosophically” into perspective. We can probably chuck it into the same basket as the ‘education is getting really bad and we’re failing our students terribly’ thing.

Our standard of living has never been higher and we rank very highly in education on a global scale. Sure, we can always work to do better, but the whole “we’re doomed, doooooomed” line is starting to get tired.

James-T-Kirk9:35 am 15 Oct 10

Shadow Boxer – I mostly agree with you.

Both of my kids spent all of their k-10 schooling at a private school, and I chucked them into the public school system for college to acclimatise them to the lack of care and consideration they will experience in Uni.

shadow boxer9:17 am 15 Oct 10

Good example from Clueless of why my kids will never see the inside of a public school, are you really teaching kids this nonsense ?

“A dramatic example of a member of the middle class is a speaker of the lower house of parliament. All of his sense of importance flows from his willing subordination to a larger institutional structure which serves owning-class interests. In his work there is some intellectual judgement involved, rules to follow, and for the most part he sits on his arsehole all day”

It’s intersting your claim of a class system when our richest people are people like Dick Smith, Jerry Harvey, Aussie John Symons and Twiggy Forrest.

Sad to see this sort of learned helplessness ingrained so deeply but maybe the system is worse than even I thought.

Oh I give up. You start to argue something and then get called on it and pull the whole ‘I didn’t say that, I didn’t place any value judgment on anything, I just said it was happening’.

You’ve gesticulated wildly towards ‘feminism, left-wing, PC’ being a negative influence on the educational system by posing a lot of loaded questions, and then weaseled your way out of taking an honest position.

“so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession”

There have been numerous (unanswered) questions about how more females than males in the profession serves to ‘feminise’ the profession and make males unwelcome – followed by ‘heavily biased towards female and feminist principles’ – again an unexplained statement that relies on the idea that females and feminist principles are antipathetical to men. You haven’t explained what these ‘female values’ are, nor why they are damaging to men. When pulled up on it … ‘I didn’t say that, I didn’t say that’.

All you’ve managed to demonstrate so far is that ‘there are more female teachers than males teachers’, which was the starting point FFS, and the fact that you think being male is antipathetical to feminism, left-wing and PC.

You still haven’t provided even the most basic evidence that any of this actually exists.

Perhaps I should ask the same questions again – I’m getting tired of posing them. Because you haven’t answered.

“Political correctness is the law, not a good idea.”

Give an example, perhaps? I hesitate to make generalisations, but the only people I’ve seen that make claims like this generally do it because they’ve been criticised for being bigoted (the ‘political correctness’ screed is beloved of right-wing radio shock jocks who love to fire up their audiences with tales of how single-mothers, lesbians and Aborigines are ruining the country … also beloved by people who say things like ‘I’m not a racist, but’).

“Will that HUGE preponderance of females in the profession not lead to feminisation of the system? If not, how not?”

What do you mean by feminisation? How is this a bad thing for males?

PB,

Your ego is violently flailing around in the ocean of intellectual whoop-ass the Rev has just handed you. Just drink the Kool Aid before he tears you a third one.

The fundamental things apply. Since colonial times the Australian education system has mainly existed to sort society’s young into class-based social strata. As far as it exists for more interesting purposes than this, the education system is in decline.

The social classes in Australia are arranged as follows.

A working class does all the work that requires the hands more than the head. Its task is mainly to serve the interests of other social classes. For this task workers are given enough recompense to permit their own survival and reproduction. A dramatic example of a member of the working class is a meat packer. Her work involves repetitive physical labour. So long as she can cut up animal carcasses and put them in plastic containers without becoming sick, bored or injured she will be paid a small wage allowing her to continue in her function and breed more workers.

A middle class does all the work that requires the head more than, or at least as much as, the hands. Its task is mainly to support and defend the interests of the owning class. For this task its members are given enough recompense both to survive and reproduce; and a surplus with which to form an exaggerated opinion of their own value to society. A dramatic example of a member of the middle class is a speaker of the lower house of parliament. All of his sense of importance flows from his willing subordination to a larger institutional structure which serves owning-class interests. In his work there is some intellectual judgement involved, rules to follow, and for the most part he sits on his arsehole all day. Some clever financial mechanisms are available to him with which he can protect his survival if he gets sick, bored or injured. But the mechanisms themselves, of course, generate profit only for the owning class.

An owning class owns all real property and other assets available to its society, some of which it allows members of other classes to use at a profit to the owners. Any work owners do themselves is symbolic, and has only the purpose of increasing their own property and other assets. A dramatic example of a member of the owning class is a landlord whose financial resources for property-buying were given to her by parents whose own parents were land-owners during the colonial period. She spends most of her time pursuing leisurely activities and only puts her mind to work in order to monitor the rental income from her property. The intellectual heavy lifting involved in these calculations she leaves to a professional accountancy firm staffed by members of the middle class.

Well, to the decline of school education. Most of the readers on this site are middle-class. We probably seek diversion on sites like this one to disguise from ourselves the awkward realities of our class position. Chief of these is that there is limited interest or enjoyment in working to the enrichment of someone else; ie, in being a means to someone else’s ends. This is the case for all middle-class people whether they consciously confront it or not. The only interesting roles in society for the middle class involve work that supports the interests of the working class, because this is altruistic. Such work neither supports rich owners nor treats workers as mere means to our own ends. For reasons to do with my individual abilities, financial resources and preferences, the best example of this work that I was able to find for myself was teaching in a public school.

Upwards class mobility for the middle and working classes is possible, but not very interesting. It is almost impossible to enter the owning class without exploiting other people on the way. An example of upwards class-mobility which was publicised recently on ABC’s Australian Story is Jan Cameron, who turned her interesting outdoor adventure equipment business into a very profitable one by importing all her goods cheaply from China: see http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2007/s3035405.htm.

The typical class-mobility story of ‘how I became rich by using other people as means to my own enrichment’ has very little to recommend it to my ears. However there are real benefits relative to their starting position for workers who enter the middle classes and it would be unreasonable to discount them. Kenny the plumber’s dad understood this when he told Kenny that he wouldn’t be respected at work until he spent his workday sitting on his arsehole. As well as respect – a dubious value founded on hypocrisy – there is access to real things like leisure and insurance when you enter the middle class. A middle-class teacher can enable this class mobility for working-class people.

However my own time in the public education system suggests few teachers today are willing and/or able to do so. Schooling as it has been done since colonial times is in a decline that can be seen, felt and measured. The loss of men from the system is only a symptom of this general decline, and simply reflects mens’ class interests as outlined above. I agree with the point made that women are forced or enticed into altruistic behaviour by their dependent children and so are hostage not just to the owning class but to their children’s needs, which affects their behaviour at work.

A lot of the reasons offered for the decline seem to me wrong or just missing the point. The big point which no-one dares address is that industrial society as a whole has lost its way spiritually, ecologically and philosophically, and is poisoning itself to an early death. But that is a matter too large for discussion here.

If we accept that schooling is the coalmine canary of society, and male teachers are the coalmine canaries of schooling, then we can address particular problems in schools now. I’ll just address the ones that irritate me personally. It’s particularly annoying to hear the argument raised by, eg, Pommie Bastard that educational standards are falling if nothing is said about the need to restrain the ballooning administrative and bureaucratic functions of the system from invading teachers’ time and consuming school resources. Most of the new State-wide and nation-wide numeracy and literacy testing spectacularly fails to do more than polish the threshing-combs of schooling as social-class sorting system. It funnels huge resources into the least interesting – some would say most oppressive – functions of school education, so that teachers have fewer opportunities to work creatively to get a few adventurous and intellectually able working-class children into the middle class. The professional scrutiny teachers undergo in NSW and elsewhere amount to hours of paperwork created to prove again and again the existence of what teachers themselves actually have done or know how to do, to no-one’s satisfaction that I can see, except perhaps that of education bureaucrats sitting on their arseholes somewhere. As far as I can tell, the standardised testing of students and bureaucratic monitoring of teachers bring about the opposite of their stated intentions. It should go without saying that all of these administrative demands are subtracted from time that teachers spend with students, and added to the log of unpaid working hours.

The very complicated patterns that mark systemic decline are hard to summarise but there are certain warning signs:
(A) A falling signal-to-noise ratio. This idea is a bit abstract so a non-education example is offered. In a garden there will be more weeds and fewer fruit trees. In a school there will be more exams measuring performance than activities that might raise performance. There will be more students serving time than being educated.
(B) Top-heavy command structures. Less of worth is produced as energy flows to the least productive elements in the system. In the education system managing things is privileged over doing things. Reporting becomes as fascinating and valuable as learning.
(C) Resource starvation. More work is imposed on fewer people, for the same or steadily falling pay. Teaching work intensifies as class sizes increase and bureaucratic tasks multiply.

Australian schools have been showing all the signs and I fear for their future. Or perhaps only my own as I am one of the canaries and the air is getting pretty foul down here. Maybe it will be time for me to fly off to do some upward mobility of my own soon?

Pommy bastard7:12 pm 14 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

But you just said “When youpoint out where I’ve said it’s “bad thing” or that it’s having a “negative effect” then I’ll answer”. Really. WTF!?

That’s where your reading comprehension difficulties cripple you again Jim, you read things which are not there. I stated that this was occurring, I made no value judgement on it.

Jim Jones said :

And again, what you do you mean by the ‘feminisation’ of the educational system? You still haven’t explained what you mean by this.

So far all we’ve got is ‘there are more women teachers than male teachers’ – is that all that you mean by ‘feminisation’? If so, why is it having such a marked negative effect on the educational outcomes of young males? Are you saying that young boys would fare a lot better in the educational system if there were more male teachers? If so, why?

I’ve explained this more than once. The whole of teaching is becoming a female dominated profession, both at the chalk face and in the academic. It is hardly surprising in that case that teaching as a profession is being “feminised”, inasmuch as its values and philosophies are not gender neutral, but heavily biased towards female and feminist principles.. I don’t know how I can explain it better for you.

Jim Jones said :

Ok, then why , in your opinion, if education has not become as I describe it, are female teachers now emerging at a rate of 7 to every 1 male teacher.

What is your answer?

Ah come on. That’s a dodgy argument and you know it. You haven’t presented any evidence that ‘left-wing, pc, feminist ideology’ has anything to do with the gender disparity, but you’re asking me to believe it because ‘there’s no other explanation’?

Oh, and you were doing so well too.
?

I’ll give you my next months pay packet if you can point out where I said there was “no other explanation”, if you cannot, I will call you a liar. You even had the audacity to put it in quotes as if you were quoting me!

Can you tell me how asking you for your thoughts on why this occurs is translated into “there is no other explanation”

?

Jim Jones said :

For a start, this thread has provided numerous explanations why males have been leaving the education system: poor pay, lack of social respect, lack of opportunities for career advancement, fear of being labelled a kiddy fiddler, and so on. No-one has said anything remarkably like ‘I’ll never be a teacher because the system is too feminine’ – that’s just … silly.

I agree with all the later too.

Let me remind you of something Jim, I was the one who posited the idea of female dominance in the profession as ONE aspect of MAYBE why men are not entering the profession. It was one of MANY reasons I gave.

However, someone insisted we discuss just that one, ..errrmm… that would be YOU wouldn’t it. I gave many reasons, you have given none. I gave my thoughts, you have only asked questions.

You have also made these remarkable “retranslations”;

PB says: “Political correctness is the law, not a good idea.”;
Jim translates: “As for ‘political correctness gone mad”
Jim translates: </b “the whole ‘political correctness is destroying our community’ talking point”

PB says: “Will that HUGE preponderance of females in the profession not lead to feminisation of the system? If not, how not?”
Jim translates: “Presumably you’re not suggesting that all the women are ganging up on the men or something silly like that.”

PB says: “Is teaching dominated by people with left wing views, or right wing. No need to answer.
Jim translates: “Do you really want to drag this argument down to the level of: “male students are doing badly at school because of the evil left-wing socialist teachers?”

PB says: “Debate what is said, not what you have made up.”
Jim translates: As for the rest – stop getting so aggro. You’ve made some obvious gestures to the banal notion that it’s all the fault of the evil left-wing feminazi postmodern blah blah blah

Still, I’ll charge you nothing for this lesson, it’s on me ?

georgesgenitals5:11 pm 14 Oct 10

Special G said :

7 to 1 – that in itself should be a good reason for young uni age males to get into teaching.

Or at least hang around the faculty.

7 to 1 – that in itself should be a good reason for young uni age males to get into teaching.

Pommy bastard said :

Ok, then why , in your opinion, if education has not become as I describe it, are female teachers now emerging at a rate of 7 to every 1 male teacher.

It’s actually closer to 3 to 1 (in the ACT, which is the most imbalanced in Australia).

Pommy bastard said :

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that you were saying that you believed that male students were doing worse than their female counterparts because of the ‘feminisation’ of the educational system.

That is right, and I stand by that assertion.

But you just said “When youpoint out where I’ve said it’s “bad thing” or that it’s having a “negative effect” then I’ll answer”. Really. WTF!?

And again, what you do you mean by the ‘feminisation’ of the educational system? You still haven’t explained what you mean by this.

So far all we’ve got is ‘there are more women teachers than male teachers’ – is that all that you mean by ‘feminisation’? If so, why is it having such a marked negative effect on the educational outcomes of young males? Are you saying that young boys would fare a lot better in the educational system if there were more male teachers? If so, why?

I really don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. There’s lots of talk about how there are more male teachers than females, lots of talk about how female students are doing better than male students, and a lot of anti-feminist/pc/left-wing talk, but none of it seems to connect in any meaningful way.

Jim Jones said :

Ok, then why , in your opinion, if education has not become as I describe it, are female teachers now emerging at a rate of 7 to every 1 male teacher.

What is your answer?

Ah come on. That’s a dodgy argument and you know it. You haven’t presented any evidence that ‘left-wing, pc, feminist ideology’ has anything to do with the gender disparity, but you’re asking me to believe it because ‘there’s no other explanation’?

For a start, this thread has provided numerous explanations why males have been leaving the education system: poor pay, lack of social respect, lack of opportunities for career advancement, fear of being labelled a kiddy fiddler, and so on. No-one has said anything remarkably like ‘I’ll never be a teacher because the system is too feminine’ – that’s just … silly.

Pommy bastard3:21 pm 14 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that you were saying that you believed that male students were doing worse than their female counterparts because of the ‘feminisation’ of the educational system.

That is right, and I stand by that assertion.

Jim Jones said :

In which case, that would be a fine argument for equal distribution of exams and coursework (on a deeper level, it would be an argument for examining *why* this unevenness exists.

I totally agree.

Jim Jones said :

As for the rest – stop getting so aggro. You’ve made some obvious gestures to the banal notion that it’s all the fault of the evil left-wing feminazi postmodern blah blah blah

No that’s another clear example of what you do Jim, you make up things or attribute ideas to people. If you want to debate, then quote me, do not put words in my mouth, do not ascribe beliefs to me that you cannot show I have stated.

You have every ability to keep this debate pleasant, but you choose to, at best distort what I have said, at worse lie about, about what I have said and think.

I’m not “getting agro” Jim, far from it. What I am doing is asking you to play fair. If you want me to answer yuoru questions Jim, ask me about what i have said, not about statements you have created out of thin air.

Jim Jones said :

Which is obviously silly. For a start, it’s myth (for which there is no evidence). Secondly, surely no civilised person believes that anything left-wing, ‘pc’ (whatever you mean by this – I’ve raised it before without an answer), or feminist is antithetical to men.

Ok, then why , in your opinion, if education has not become as I describe it, are female teachers now emerging at a rate of 7 to every 1 male teacher.

What is your answer?

colourful sydney racing identity3:12 pm 14 Oct 10

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

that is waht kept me out of it.

Given my inability to spell the word ‘what’ it was probably for the best…

James-T-Kirk3:09 pm 14 Oct 10

Opps! I forgot to add, that this simply looks like a case of positive gender re-balancing. Weren’t we recently complaining about a lack of women in the workforce?

georgesgenitals3:09 pm 14 Oct 10

Perhaps, then , we need to pay male teachers more than women, to encourage them back into the system.

colourful sydney racing identity3:07 pm 14 Oct 10

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

that is waht kept me out of it.

James-T-Kirk3:02 pm 14 Oct 10

housebound said :

Like everything, there’s bits of truth in what most people have said.

The pay isn’t so bad, really, unless money is all you measure yourself by. Starting slary was well above average graduate salary for many years, I assume it still is.

I pay more in tax than my wife (who is a teacher) earns…… Can you read that again?

I *firmly* believe that teachers should be rewarded for teaching, just like doctors.

Pommy bastard said :

When youpoint out where I’ve said it’s “bad thing” or that it’s having a “negative effect” or where you think I’ve implied “all the women are ganging up on the men”, then that will deserve an answer.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that you were saying that you believed that male students were doing worse than their female counterparts because of the ‘feminisation’ of the educational system.

Jim Jones said :

Studies have shown that girls perform better in coursework than boys, while boys do better in exams.

In which case, that would be a fine argument for equal distribution of exams and coursework (on a deeper level, it would be an argument for examining *why* this unevenness exists.

As for the rest – stop getting so aggro. You’ve made some obvious gestures to the banal notion that it’s all the fault of the evil left-wing feminazi postmodern blah blah blah

Jim Jones said :

so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession

Which is obviously silly. For a start, it’s myth (for which there is no evidence). Secondly, surely no civilised person believes that anything left-wing, ‘pc’ (whatever you mean by this – I’ve raised it before without an answer), or feminist is antithetical to men.

Pommy bastard1:52 pm 14 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

At question here really is what you mean by ‘feminisation’ – yes, there are more women than men in education, and we’re in agreement that the imbalance is out of whack and should be remedied. But I’m a bit confused as to why you think having a lot of women around is a bad thing, or has a negative effect. Presumably you’re not suggesting that all the women are ganging up on the men or something silly like that.

When youpoint out where I’ve said it’s “bad thing” or that it’s having a “negative effect” or where you think I’ve implied “all the women are ganging up on the men”, then that will deserve an answer.

Debate what is said, not what you have made up.

Jim Jones said :

Are you saying that exams are a male way of doing things? Male students can’t cooperate? Christ on a stick, if children can’t cooperate (male or female) then there’s something wrong with their educational foundations.

From your beloved Guardian;

One of the country’s biggest exam boards is developing different GCSE courses for boys and girls, it emerged today.

The Assessment and Qualifications Alliance (AQA) said it was looking into creating a science GCSE with more coursework in it for girls, and one which gave more weighting to exam marks for boys.

Studies have shown that girls perform better in coursework than boys, while boys do better in exams.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/jun/18/boys-girls-different-gcse-course

Jim Jones said :

Ah, this chestnut. Funny how everyone engaged in intellectual pursuits is (according to the right-wing) biased towards the left? Why do think that would be?

Point out where I have said that “everyone engaged in intellectual pursuits is biased towards the left”, and you may deserve an answer.

Debate what is said, not what you have made up.

Do you really want to drag this argument down to the level of: “male students are doing badly at school because of the evil left-wing socialist teachers?” If so, you might as well stop engaging in reasoned debate and go read ‘The Australian’ instead.

I’ll reply in paraphrase Jim.

“Do you really want to drag this argument down to the level of: “I’ve made up some imaginary stuff, and attributed it to you, as if you have actually said it”

If so, when you said that people with right wing views hate and want to kill teachers, and want all ASussie schools to be Christian worship based and work on “intelligent design and creationist” understandings, do you have some evidence of that?”

Jim Jones said :

I’ve asked for evidence of left-wing/PC/feminist ideology invasion of education before, and yet none is forthcoming.

I don’t know about ‘feminised’, but I’d definitely say that it’s left-wing.

My fiance started an education degree earlier this year, but ended up dropping out in part due to an unwillingness to pander to the leftist leanings inherent in the course material. For example, one of her first assignments was to analyse a video which posited the notion that everyone in western society is basically miserable because of our consumerist lifestyles, and it was clear from the phrasing of the question that the student was expected to take the position that this assertion was correct. This stuff might work on impressionable young university students, but it’s a bit tough for someone in their mid-30s to swallow.

This may have just been the university that she was doing it through, though I mentioned it to my dear old mum (who was a teacher for many, many years) and she told me that she held a similar opinion of the people who were running the education system throughout her career. As such, it probably wouldn’t qualify as an invasion – it’s been that way for a long time, apparently.

Pommy bastard said :

Well what would you say a profession with such a high female preponderance was? What would you say of a profession where 25% of its workplaces had no men at all?

Pommy bastard said :

Will that HUGE preponderance of females in the profession not lead to feminisation of the system? If not, how not?

At question here really is what you mean by ‘feminisation’ – yes, there are more women than men in education, and we’re in agreement that the imbalance is out of whack and should be remedied. But I’m a bit confused as to why you think having a lot of women around is a bad thing, or has a negative effect. Presumably you’re not suggesting that all the women are ganging up on the men or something silly like that.

Pommy bastard said :

Here’s another thing to think about. In the testing of kids, competition is being relegated to second class status, cooperation is being made the norm. Exams are out coursework is in. Who benefits from this, boys or girls?

I know there’s a (largely American) myth that says that – I haven’t seen a jot of evidence to support it. Regardless of whether it’s true or not, both coursework and exams are valid means of testing, I can’t see how they correlate to gender distinctions. Are you saying that exams are a male way of doing things? Male students can’t cooperate? Christ on a stick, if children can’t cooperate (male or female) then there’s something wrong with their educational foundations.

Pommy bastard said :

Is teaching dominated by people with left wing views, or right wing. No need to answer.
Do you think their personal political philosophy will bias their professional practice?

Ah, this chestnut. Funny how everyone engaged in intellectual pursuits is (according to the right-wing) biased towards the left? Why do think that would be?

Do you really want to drag this argument down to the level of: “male students are doing badly at school because of the evil left-wing socialist teachers?” If so, you might as well stop engaging in reasoned debate and go read ‘The Australian’ instead.

shadow boxer11:39 am 14 Oct 10

Review the year/term just passed, what went well, what didn’t go well;
Review the curriculum, what went well what didn’t go well;
Review the policy and behavioural policies, what went well, did it work in practice;
Plan out the year/term ahead, do we have a particular focus, is there areas we can improve our perfomance, how can we better engage our kids;
Review individual children’s performances, are any falling through the cracks, can we talk to these kids parents and maybe get them into some sort of extra help program that we could run this summer (a sort of summer school like the States).
Would any kids benefit from two-three weeks of one on one assistance.
Do we have the right resources in the right places leading into this next period.
What focus should we direct our limited capital investment to achieve the highest outcomes.
Are our bullying strategies working.
Do we have the best roster in place to ensure the best teachers are working to their strengths.
Personal development
Lesson planning, workshops, team building exercises, extra curricular activities for the year ahead

Nothing like a few motherhood statements hey? However, I will point out that teachers do these things in holidays as well as continuously throughout the year. Of course, I will still point out that the main role of teachers is actually teaching.

And yes, the holidays also make up for the lack of flex time and doing 50 hour weeks with no overtime.

I am not sure how they are motherhood statements but if you think the system is so good it can’t be improved more power to you I guess. The people leaving the public system in droves(including teachers) probably disagree.

I wonder how many teachers would trade the holidays off for a decent wage ? It may even mean they no longer have to bear the burden of working 50 hours a week.

Seems a win/win for everyone.

Pommy bastard10:56 am 14 Oct 10

Well what would you say a profession with such a high female preponderance was? What would you say of a profession where 25% of its workplaces had no men at all?

Here’s another thing to think about. In the testing of kids, competition is being relegated to second class status, cooperation is being made the norm. Exams are out coursework is in. Who benefits from this, boys or girls?

Is teaching dominated by people with left wing views, or right wing. No need to answer.
Do you think their personal political philosophy will bias their professional practice?

Here’s a fact;

According to government figures for 2006, the ratio of newly qualified female to male teachers under the age of 25 was approaching seven to one. That is a ridiculous state of affairs, given that boys slightly outnumber girls in Britain.

Will that HUGE preponderance of females in the profession not lead to feminisation of the system? If not, how not?

Evidence, PB, evidence!

I’ve asked for evidence of left-wing/PC/feminist ideology invasion of education before, and yet none is forthcoming.

Your ‘due to it being feminised’ I have to disagree with. If “there are strands of the community that see high educational performance as ‘unmasculine’”, as we both agree, I’d state that this is a problem centering on the definition of masculinity.

I still haven’t seen any evidence that education is being ‘feminised’.

Pommy bastard10:21 am 14 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

It’s cool PB, it’s all in good spirits.

Thanks 🙂

To start, the Guardian is ‘loony left’? It’s the most respected English newspaper in all of Europe, FFS. The Guardian is the only British paper that the rest of the world unanimously takes much notice of. I think we’ll definitely have to agree to disagree on that one.

Replace the “Gruaniad” [sic] with “The Times” and you’d be right. The Times is the most respected paper in the world. The Grauniad is a left wing apologists nonsense.

Jim Jones said :

I love the Yes, Minister gag about the UK Press: “the Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country; and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is. … Sun readers don’t care who runs the country, as long as she’s got big tits.”

So true, so true…

As to the gender inequities in education – yeah, the problem is very well documented in Australia, Britain and the US (presumably also New Zealand, but really, who cares?). But the causes are also relatively well identified too.

Jim Jones said :

As far as I’m aware, the leading causes of growing gender inequity in educational institutions are socio-cultural (young boys don’t traditionally place much value in performing well in education and there are strands of the community that see high educational performance as ‘unmasculine’,

Due to it being feminised.

The Guardian article makes an interesting point when discussing the importance of male teachers as role models, which brings us full circle to why males aren’t entering the teaching profession. Inevitably we’re lead back to the same answers: it’s not considered a highly desirable career because of the lack of career opportunities, relatively low pay, poor working conditions, and (very importantly) the general lack of community respect/esteem for teachers.

And because it has been so highly geared to left wing/PC/feminist ideology and mores that men no longer feel welcome, safe, effectual, or needed in the profession.

johnboy said :

The Guardian can’t even spell its name right and was consistently on the wrong side of every major issue in the 20th century.

My god Johnboy, we agree! Satan must be going skiing in hell this weekend.

It’s cool PB, it’s all in good spirits.

To start, the Guardian is ‘loony left’? It’s the most respected English newspaper in all of Europe, FFS. The Guardian is the only British paper that the rest of the world unanimously takes much notice of. I think we’ll definitely have to agree to disagree on that one.

I love the Yes, Minister gag about the UK Press: “the Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country; and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is. … Sun readers don’t care who runs the country, as long as she’s got big tits.”

As to the gender inequities in education – yeah, the problem is very well documented in Australia, Britain and the US (presumably also New Zealand, but really, who cares?). But the causes are also relatively well identified too.

As far as I’m aware, the leading causes of growing gender inequity in educational institutions are socio-cultural (young boys don’t traditionally place much value in performing well in education and there are strands of the community that see high educational performance as ‘unmasculine’, while girls are unhampered by these attitudes; some of the university figures can be skewed by the fact that females will enter university at all costs because they feel University is the only option for a decent career path, and htey don’t have the option of learning a trade, etc) but can also be related to the gender differences in development (i.e. at early ages, females will outperform males because they ‘mature faster’, to put it in the vernacular).

It’s also been remarked that girls educational performance has increased starkly since the 1960s/1970s (in line with a general social movement towards gender equality) and that, in some instances, the gender divide is being overstated: that we must get past the idea that education is a zero sum game where a step forward for girls is automatically a step backward for boys.

The Guardian article makes an interesting point when discussing the importance of male teachers as role models, which brings us full circle to why males aren’t entering the teaching profession. Inevitably we’re lead back to the same answers: it’s not considered a highly desirable career because of the lack of career opportunities, relatively low pay, poor working conditions, and (very importantly) the general lack of community respect/esteem for teachers.

The Guardian can’t even spell its name right and was consistently on the wrong side of every major issue in the 20th century.

shadow boxer8:00 am 14 Oct 10

o.k. I’m not a teacher but most organisations these days undertake a program of continous improvement, just off the top of my head;

Review the year/term just passed, what went well, what didn’t go well;
Review the curriculum, what went well what didn’t go well;
Review the policy and behavioural policies, what went well, did it work in practice;
Plan out the year/term ahead, do we have a particular focus, is there areas we can improve our perfomance, how can we better engage our kids;
Review individual children’s performances, are any falling through the cracks, can we talk to these kids parents and maybe get them into some sort of extra help program that we could run this summer (a sort of summer school like the States).
Would any kids benefit from two-three weeks of one on one assistance.
Do we have the right resources in the right places leading into this next period.
What focus should we direct our limited capital investment to achieve the highest outcomes.
Are our bullying strategies working.
Do we have the best roster in place to ensure the best teachers are working to their strengths.
Personal development
Lesson planning, workshops, team building exercises, extra curricular activities for the year ahead….

I could go on but there’s probably not much point, probably the biggest single benefit would be the opportunity for the faculty to spend some quality planning time together in order to present a coherent approach to the next work period, if you Google continous improvement you will get a feel for the concept.

JohnKnox said :

Jethro said :

I guess the question needs to be asked, if teaching is such an ‘easy job’ with such great fringe benefits such as limitless holidays and fantastic working hours, why aren’t you doing it?

I’m not saying it is easy or cushy. I’m saying it’s no harder than many other jobs out there. I’m also saying that the wages they currently get are in line with the work they currently do.

The only difference seems to be that some teachers (not all before you attack me on that) are extremely vocal in saying they deserve more simply because of the position they hold. If they work a full year, improve the quality of their core outcomes or can prove that their jobs deserve extra such as danger money then I’ll be the first to demand they get a pay increase. But while they are under the current work conditions then I’m sorry I just dont think they deserve one.

I would argue that it is harder, and speak from the experience of someone who has worked in a fairly significant variety of occupations. The fact that the profession has one of the highest turnover rates (particularly amongst people within the first 3 years of starting teaching, which is the period of time when the comparative pay in relation to people starting out in other professions is actually quite good)would also suggest that it is a more difficult job than most.

It is like the other front line public service jobs – policing, nursing, fire-fighting, etc – people working in a job that offers a tangible benefit to the community, often under quite poor working conditions – get paid significantly less than public servants working in an office.

Is that a serious question ?

Yes it is. Regale us with what teachers should do during school holidays when there are no students to teach.

Feel free to elaborate.

I’m guessing they would be expecting teachers to do professional development and training (which currently is done on the school holidays anyway), planning, marking, reporting, creating resources, etc. These things are currently done during the school term outside of school hours. They take a significant amount of a teacher’s time outside of the 8:00 – 3:00 school day.

One could argue that school holidays serve as an type of ‘flex’ arrangement. Teachers get paid for a 38 hour week but are more likely to work a 50+ hour week. Those unpaid 12 hours each week are traded off with extra holidays.

If teachers were to lose their holidays I would assume that all that extra work being done during the school term would not be done then, but simply shifted to another part of the year. Teachers would work from 8:00 – 4:00 and not do any planning, marking, reporting or administrative work during the term. Not great when students need feedback on work soon after it’s done, not 10 weeks later, during a new term when they have moved on to a completely different subject or unit. This would also mean that teachers would no longer modify their units / lessons throughout the term in order to meet the needs of the particular students and classes they have. Lessons would become more inflexible and less directed towards the students’ needs and interests.

You would also then have the problem of teacher burnout becoming even worse. The school year operates with 4 lots of 10 week teaching periods which can only be described as working marathons that take a considerable mental and emotional toll. I would hazard a guess that if you were to remove school holidays as an incentive / opportunity to regather and prepare for the next term, the already high rate of teacher burnout and dissatisfaction with working conditions would sky-rocket.

As for me, I absolutely love my job. I feel like I am doing something really worthwhile with my life, not just making money for someone. However, I see 2, maybe 3 more years left in my teaching career before I move on. It takes too much out of me, particularly the lingering thought in the back of your head that there is always something that needs to be done. going home and spending a weekend without doing any work always leaves you feeling guilty that you are neglecting your job.

I look forward to the day when my job doesn’t follow me home and take up my evenings and weekends.

Jethro said :

I guess the question needs to be asked, if teaching is such an ‘easy job’ with such great fringe benefits such as limitless holidays and fantastic working hours, why aren’t you doing it?

I’m not saying it is easy or cushy. I’m saying it’s no harder than many other jobs out there. I’m also saying that the wages they currently get are in line with the work they currently do.

The only difference seems to be that some teachers (not all before you attack me on that) are extremely vocal in saying they deserve more simply because of the position they hold. If they work a full year, improve the quality of their core outcomes or can prove that their jobs deserve extra such as danger money then I’ll be the first to demand they get a pay increase. But while they are under the current work conditions then I’m sorry I just dont think they deserve one.

Pommy bastard4:09 pm 13 Oct 10

Oh BTW offered in good humour, I forgot the 🙂 and 😉 add as apropriate 😉

shadow boxer said :

Jim Jones said :

The hardest working people in our society today are probably our retail workers who will not get a break from now to mid February

I have worked in retail, warehousing, freight and transport, manufacturing, white collar/office jobs and in teaching. Retail was, without a doubt, the easiest sector I ever worked in.

Pommy bastard4:01 pm 13 Oct 10

Now, who said it was “derailing the education system” Jim? Who mentioned “anti-masculine ideology”?

Ok, I’ll happily admit I overstated my case on “male values”, mea culpa.

here’s some (UK) stats to think about,
25% of UK primary schools have no male teachers.
By the age of five, 53% of boys have reached the expected level in writing compared with 72% of girls.
Boys are also three and a half times more likely to be permanently excluded from school.
In GCSEs , 31% of boys achieved five A-C grades, compared with 38% of girls.
In the NHS nearly 60 per cent of first year student doctors last year were women, as were nearly half of second year doctors.
Significantly more women than men accepted a place at medical and dentistry schools last year, with 5,128 women enrolling compared to only 3,929 men.
Only 13 per cent of newly qualified primary teachers are men.
51% of girls now enter higher education compared to 40% of boys. A gender education gap of 11%.
One in ten men (10.3%) who graduated with a degree last year is unemployed, compared with 6.3% women.
Only 123,827, or 25 per cent, of the 490,981 registered working teachers are men, with the majority in secondary schools and further education.
Figures and analysis published by the Higher Education Policy Institute shows that whilst 49% of girls are going onto university only 38% of men are.

Now then, answer me this, what if the genders were reversed in the stas above, what would be the outcome?

This article from the (loony) left paper “The Guardian” makes for interesting reading too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/09/education-male-female-gap

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/09/education-male-female-gap

Nah, derail away.

Honestly, if you have any evidence of ‘political correctness’ or ‘anti-masculine ideology’ derailing the education system, I’d be very keen to see it.

And yes, I’ll openly admit it, I’d be keen to see it because I suspect that it doesn’t exist – the whole ‘political correctness is destroying our community’ talking point has never proved to be anything more than unfounded scaremongering bollocks of the Current Affair/TodayTonight variety, IMHO.

I know the educational system in Australia pretty well, and I can think of more examples of instutionalised idiocy than I care to think about, but not one of them could be described as ‘political correctness gone too far’ or the delegitimation of male values (truthfully, I’m not really sure what these values are anyway).

Pommy bastard1:18 pm 13 Oct 10

Jim, I think there’s little point in us discussing what I beleive the feminising of the professions is, or what we consuider political correcteness gone to far, as we come from very different standpoints,and it would only derail the thrust of this debate.

(I’m glad you quoted what I actually said on “PC”, but why throw in the “madness” bit?)

We should agree to disagree, like gentlemen. (Or is that sexist?)

shadow boxer said :

I think that’s the first time agreed with you Jim 😉

I’m perturbed by this.

shadow boxer11:59 am 13 Oct 10

I think the education system and teachers personally would get a far better outcome if teachers worked through the holidays

I’m just intrigued at what teachers would do in the holiday periods given there are well, ah.. , no students?

Maybe they could walk around canberra picking up rubbish?

Is that a serious question ? I’ll let the professional educators answer unless the way we deliver our education is already perfect.

Jim Jones said “Honestly, the bulk of times I hear people banging on about how bad ‘political correctness’ is, it’s usually because someone’s told them that they’re acting like a bigoted tool”

I think that’s the first time agreed with you Jim 😉

Pommy bastard said :

There has been a “feminising” of all these types of profession to the point where male values, strengths and outlooks, are not so much despised as virtually illegal.

A little off topic, but shouldn’t we consider what the hell is wrong with our society that this attitude still exists and affects things? Why is there a set of ‘male values’ and ‘female values’? Why is it undesirable for women to be assertive, and for men to care about others and actually have (omfg) emotions? Shouldn’t both of these things be important in a teacher, no matter what their gender?

I’d say the lack of career progression is a biggie too.

The starting salary is actually good, but 5 years in, unless you want to aim for principal, there is no possibility for a payrise for the rest of your career – not much of an incentive to hang around.

That would make me look at other options after the 5 years.

PB, you make some interesting points, but couple just seemed a bit … silly, to me:

“There has been a “feminising” of all these types of profession to the point where male values, strengths and outlooks, are not so much despised as virtually illegal.

Political correctness is the law, not a a good idea.”

Education has (for a good amount of time in the West) been considered a feminine profession, because it was one of the few career avenues thought appropriate for females (it’s also arguable that this is one of the reasons that it’s a lower paid form of employment). I haven’t seen any evidence whatsoever that male values or outlooks are not welcome. If anything, education departments are doing what they can to attract more male teachers. If you have any evidence, I’d be more than welcome to see it.

As for ‘political correctness gone mad’ – the whole political correctness thing is such an obvious throwaway gesture that I wonder why someone with your obvious intellect keeps barking about it. What ‘political correctness’ are you referring to? The fact that it’s now frowned upon to call people by racist or sexist epithets? That it’s no longer thought appropriate to express bigotry against homosexuals?

Honestly, the bulk of times I hear people banging on about how bad ‘political correctness’ is, it’s usually because someone’s told them that they’re acting like a bigoted tool.

shadow boxer10:39 am 13 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

“I guess the question needs to be asked, if teaching is such an ‘easy job’ with such great fringe benefits such as limitless holidays and fantastic working hours, why aren’t you doing it?”

Precisely – if it’s so cushy as shadow boxer and JohnKnox seem to believe, why is there an exodus away from the education profession? Why do so many prospective teachers choose other careers (citing low pay, few changes for career development and poor conditions as motivating factors)? Why are established teachers leaving the system in favour of other jobs?

For me, this debate is inextricably tied up with the fact that the quality of education that children are receiving is suffering as a result of the continued debasement of community respect for teachers (reflected in poor pay levels, but also by the aggressive, distrustful attitudes displayed above). The idea that it’s just teachers ‘whinging about their pay’ is pretty ludicrous.

At the risk of getting sucked into this again show me where I said it was cushy. It is clearly a very difficult job but I think it is the pay that is the problem.

While I agree teachers need a break from face to face teaching I think the education system and teachers personally would get a far better outcome if teachers worked through the holidays and were paid a competitive wage for doing so (100k seems fair), I said that in my previous post. Better planning in the down time would produce better schools and better pay would attract better teachers.

The hardest working people in our society today are probably our retail workers who will not get a break from now to mid February

Pommy bastard10:35 am 13 Oct 10

Any and all of the care/education professions (teaching/nursing/probation/police/social work etc) today are seeing an exodus of staff.

Why?

Most of the professions have found their roles beaurocratised to the point where the primary role is supplying statistics and data to management in order to keep them in work.

(A colleague remarked to me the other day; “If we could only get rid of all these pesky clients, we could get on with doing our real job, keeping the paper work flowing.”)

Forms and questionnaires have taken the place of professional good practice, innovation, and common sense.

Clients and consumers “rights’ Have gone to the extreme where they are allowed to do what they want, behave how they wish, and the professional is supposed to suck it up.

Respect for trained professionals by the public is at an all time low, mainly due to the point above.

There has been a “feminising” of all these types of profession to the point where male values, strengths and outlooks, are not so much despised as virtually illegal.

Political correctness is the law, not a a good idea.

management have instituted so many compulsory falderals’ (training/updates/meetings/extra curricula events) that a measurable proportion of work time spent at “the coal face” is wasted each week.

Crap professionals are moved sideways into non contact areas, or into pseudo-managerial posts, often at better wages than those in contact with the client group.

This does not lower the wage burden, but increases the work for those left at the coal face. However the management team still are able to claim they have X number of professionals employed, even if 30-40% of these do NO WORK in their professional area of expertise.

I can go on if you wish.

Trust in the professional to do the job they are paid for is out the window, management micro-manage every aspect of the working day.

georgesgenitals9:42 am 13 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

Precisely – if it’s so cushy as shadow boxer and JohnKnox seem to believe, why is there an exodus away from the education profession? Why do so many prospective teachers choose other careers (citing low pay, few changes for career development and poor conditions as motivating factors)? Why are established teachers leaving the system in favour of other jobs?

Jokes aside, teachers have a prick of a job really. They put up with all kinds of crap from all directions (including their department), and most do significant work outside class hours. If they get a few extra holidays then good on them – there’s nothing wrong with having some perks from your job (I get perks with my job, why shouldn’t they).

“I guess the question needs to be asked, if teaching is such an ‘easy job’ with such great fringe benefits such as limitless holidays and fantastic working hours, why aren’t you doing it?”

Precisely – if it’s so cushy as shadow boxer and JohnKnox seem to believe, why is there an exodus away from the education profession? Why do so many prospective teachers choose other careers (citing low pay, few changes for career development and poor conditions as motivating factors)? Why are established teachers leaving the system in favour of other jobs?

For me, this debate is inextricably tied up with the fact that the quality of education that children are receiving is suffering as a result of the continued debasement of community respect for teachers (reflected in poor pay levels, but also by the aggressive, distrustful attitudes displayed above). The idea that it’s just teachers ‘whinging about their pay’ is pretty ludicrous.

georgesgenitals9:02 am 13 Oct 10

Where I went to school the teachers did the harold for the exits even faster than the students when that 3.30 bell rang.

Let’s face it; each job has perks; each has it pitfalls… otherwise we simply wouldn’t hang around in them very long – because we all have options. There are some extremely good conditions in teaching, and some extremely poor conditions in teaching… many of which have been outlined through these posts. Perpetuating myths won’t help solve the problems outlined in the OP – and certainly won’t help with public perception of the teaching profession.

That more men than women do not see teaching as a viable career option is worrying, and warrants some investigation. I think it just comes down to better options elsewhere, especially as far as young men are concerned – and apparently more so in Canberra. DET will continue to bury their collective heads in the sand on the issue, however, because they simply don’t have the resourcing (especially ATM with the Productivity Review currently happening).

Personally, I think the problems comes down to the two factors I outlined in my original post; men not generally being as tolerant about poor behaviour, and a poor systematic approach to managing ongoing poor behaviour.

shadow boxer11:38 pm 12 Oct 10

I need to work full time to earn enough to support my family 😉 just joking, that’s a good post Jethro, you make some excelent points. I don’t necessarily agree but you present a strong case.

I guess there is teaching then there is teaching, i.e. there is probably a big diffenrence between teaching year 10 maths and science and teaching year 1 kids the alphabet and purposeful play or teaching in a long day care centre come pre school.

I think attracting more male teachers will be difficult, 18 yo kids heading off to uni just have different dreams and ambitions than going back to school once they get their degree.

shadow boxer said :

chewy14 said :

Shadow Boxer,
the product of lazy teachers who went home at 3:30pm.

That doesn’t happen apparently as it’s unsustainable “rolls eyes”

Unless someone wants to outline why teachers should get the holidays off I’ll go back to reading the posts from the people who want to shoot someone for credit card fraud.

Teachers in the ACT get 4 weeks annual leave. The rest of the time (which equals 8 more weeks)is classified as stand-down. Teachers can be (and are) asked to come into work for Professional Development sessions. Obviously those sessions are not going to take up the whole 8 weeks (probably closer to about 5 days). On top of that, most teachers will be in at school for at least a few days on the school holidays catching up on work or preparing work for the next term.

Then you have about 5 days (probably more) of Public Holidays that fall during school holidays. That takes the ‘extra leave’ down to about 6 weeks.

As far as I’m aware, most Public Service departments have a shut-down period over the Christmas/New Year break, which isn’t classified as annual leave. That takes the ‘extra leave’ down to about 5 weeks.

So teachers get about 5 weeks extra leave a year. I think this can be entirely justified when you consider the working hours that are put in during the school term. The school day goes from 8:30 – 3:00. During that time teachers will be actively teaching, catching up with students where necessary, doing playground duty, helping with sports or other extra-curricular training, etc. The concept of a ‘lunch break’ is foreign to most teachers. There is no way that extended lunches at the local coffee shop, or shopping trips to the nearest Westifeld are going to happen during a teacher’s lunch hour.

Outside of those school hours teachers have planning, marking, report writing, meetings and, increasingly, administrative duties which eat up hours every week. As an example, I was at work at 7.30 this morning and did not leave until just after 5.00. I will have a couple of hours work to do at home tonight. Dedicated teachers who involve themselves with extra curricular activities will often end up giving up weekends, with no extra financial reward.

Then we have the stress and emotional toil that is associated with teaching. There is a reason why teaching as a profession has a higher level of burnout and staff turnover than almost any other profession (about half of all teachers will leave the profession within the first 3 years), and why, in the ACT, so many teachers quickly leave their teaching jobs to work in the Public Service (sacrificing all those fantastic holidays). There is also a reason why teachers have a startlingly high rate of alcoholism and shorter life expectancies of people from other professions.

So yes, teacher do get extra leave when compared to other professions. However, it is one of the few extrinsic incentives to keep people in a profession that is comparatively poorly paid (I have been working twice as long as Ma Bodine, who works for the Public Service, yet she is on quite a few thousand more than me a year and gets 6% extra superannuation than I do), that takes a considerable toll in terms of stress and, as many of the comments in here indicate, is disrespected by a fairly significant chunk of the community.

I guess the question needs to be asked, if teaching is such an ‘easy job’ with such great fringe benefits such as limitless holidays and fantastic working hours, why aren’t you doing it?

chewy14 said :

Shadow Boxer,
the product of lazy teachers who went home at 3:30pm.

…and once again we get into the typical Riotact mentality of attacking posters rather than talking about the issues.

So instead let’s ask some legit questions
1) Does most the workforce get school holidays off as well as their standard annual, sick leave etc? No yet teachers get this bonus leave.

2) What are the core hours of most workers in our community? Probably between 7 and 10 hours per day.

3) What are the core hours of most teachers in our community? Probably between 5.5 and 7.

4) Do teachers take work home with them? I’m sure many do BUT this is no different from any other job. I’ve seen many lawyers, accountants, public servants do an 8 hours day and then work another 3 at home.

5) Do teachers have to deal with sh!t students each day? Yes but again is this any different from customer service staff dealing with crappy customers or phone support being abused by their clients?

It seems to me that all the negatives teachers gripe about are the same negatives a lot of other industries get too. Yet teachers get better core hours and more holidays. Maybe they should consider that next time they whinge about their pay?

neanderthalsis4:43 pm 12 Oct 10

shadow boxer said :

Yeh, I am too lazy, some seem to care though 😉

Which Browsers Johnboy ? I don’t think IE8 does.

Try firefox.

shadow boxer4:15 pm 12 Oct 10

chewy14 said :

Shadow Boxer,
the product of lazy teachers who went home at 3:30pm.

That doesn’t happen apparently as it’s unsustainable “rolls eyes”

Unless someone wants to outline why teachers should get the holidays off I’ll go back to reading the posts from the people who want to shoot someone for credit card fraud.

Shadow Boxer,
the product of lazy teachers who went home at 3:30pm.

georgesgenitals3:21 pm 12 Oct 10

shadow boxer said :

What’s wrong with typo’s ? isn’t it an abbreviation of typographical error.

Nothing wrong if your name is ‘Typo’. But then you should have capitalised the ‘T’.

Apostrophes are used to denote contraction, not abbreviation.

So, while they are is contracted as they’re, mobile phones aren’t referred to as mobile’s, and televisions aren’t t’v’s.

Regarding the work habits of teachers: you’re obviously not getting your information from teachers (or anyone involved in the educational system), so I can only conclude that you’re guessing at what hours you think teachers work.

Hardly an ideal way to go about gathering and disseminating information, is it?

“Whereof one cannot speak, one must pass over in silence.”

shadow boxer2:44 pm 12 Oct 10

What’s wrong with typo’s ? isn’t it an abbreviation of typographical error.

What are you telling me Jim, that the halls of our schools are full of teachers at 4:30? I may have been a bit harsh but we’ll have to agree to differ on that one.

shadow boxer said :

As for 3:30, wander down to your local school at 4:30 and see how many people are still there.

So what, do you really expect teachers to be marking work, planning activities and working on curriculum in the playground or something?

I could stand out the front of the Defence Offices in Russell and at 10am and say the same thing: “Very quiet here; they’re obviously not fighting any wars or anything; must be overpaid.”

Nuff nuff

shadow boxer2:32 pm 12 Oct 10

Yeh, I am too lazy, some seem to care though 😉

Which Browsers Johnboy ? I don’t think IE8 does.

shadow boxer said :

typo’s

That’s ironic (in the Alanis Morissette way, of course).

Shadowboxer – did you even bother going to school?

shadow boxer2:17 pm 12 Oct 10

No, the riot act does need a spellchecker, an edit function would also be useful for typo’s. Most other forums have them.

As for 3:30, wander down to your local school at 4:30 and see how many people are still there.

Nobody trotted out lazy teachers, we simply said they are adequetely paid for the hours they work, again, read the posts.

If you’re too lazy to proof your posts we’re too lazy to care. And decent browsers come with redlining anyway.

shadow boxer said :

If you’re level of understanding

If *your* understanding

C-

Please see me after class.

It’s a little rich criticising someone’s comprehension when you can’t spell more than two words without making some sort of error.

Also, ‘everyone knows it’ is not evidence. For example: “Of course unicorns exist, it’s a fact, everyone knows it.”

But it is wonderful to see people trotting out the ‘lazy teachers’ myth again – part of the proud Australian tradition of anti-intellectualism.

shadow boxer1:28 pm 12 Oct 10

If you’re level of understanding of my and JohnKnox’s posts is reflected in your subsequent posts I’m guessing you’re not an english comprehension teacher.

Slow down now Gerry and try and comprehend what you are reading.

I said leaving at 3:30 50% of the time, this is true, everyone knows it, how much marking can there be ?

I dont even know why teachers get school holidays off, take your four weeks like everyone else and the rest of the time get back to work and prepare for next term, while we’re at it you can stay at school until 5 to do all that marking and preparation.

If that happened 100k is a reasonable pay scale for a mid level high school teacher.

shadow boxer said :

approximately 16 weeks holiday a year, 3:30 knock off about 50% of the time,public holidays, sick leave, maternity leave, long service leave.

You can’t really expect 100k a year for those hours.

There are some good teachers the produce new lessons each year but most just get in the year after year groove and roll out the same stuff.

EVERYTHING you said in this post was laughable… everything!!! Educate yourself on the reality and stop perpetuating myth.
Take a closer look at your calendar; of the *12* weeks of school holidays; remove around two-three weeks for the public holidays (Easter, Christmas, NY, Family and Community Day etc). Training (in various forms) takes up another week (in total).
Leaving at 330pm is unsustainable – if you’ve seen teachers doing that on an ongoing basis, they are taking work home. Leave entitlements are basic conditions of ACT Public Service employees. With constant changes to curriculum, no teacher is able to (or would) “roll out the same stuff” year after year, except maybe as a Departmental Requirement for a packaged unit (ie “Road Ready”).

dtc said :

I can’t believe that most grads dont get a permanent job for a few years, are on term to term contracts that dont pay them anything during the holidays. It just drives so many out of teaching – that Christmas holiday job becomes the permanent job.

That’s seriously shady, when I worked at Education in WA we paid the holidays based on the proportion of the prior term that the teacher had worked.

shadow boxer7:52 am 12 Oct 10

approximately 16 weeks holiday a year, 3:30 knock off about 50% of the time,public holidays, sick leave, maternity leave, long service leave.

You can’t really expect 100k a year for those hours.

There are some good teachers the produce new lessons each year but most just get in the year after year groove and roll out the same stuff.

JohnKnox said :

Crap pay? Seems to me the pay is about right for the hours teachers have to work. I mean seriously you expect teachers to be paid the same as people doing 9+ hours per day jobs for 51 weeks of the year? Start working real times then we’ll talk about getting real wages.

Dammit! Our secret is out fellow teachers. Now everyone will flood the education offices tomorrow, signing up to join us in the glorious pay and conditions on offer in the (until now) secretive society of teaching…

I can’t believe we had them all fooled soooooooooooooo long – bwah-har-har!!!

WhyTheLongFace11:56 pm 11 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

JohnKnox said :

Crap pay? Seems to me the pay is about right for the hours teachers have to work. I mean seriously you expect teachers to be paid the same as people doing 9+ hours per day jobs for 51 weeks of the year? Start working real times then we’ll talk about getting real wages.

Another myth comes out. All teachers work longer than ‘school hours’ and many work weekends and most afternoons (doing everything from marking tests to coaching sports teams or taking out of class music lessons, etc.)

This sort of attitude is the reason that more males don’t teach – because they’ll have to put up with the dismissive attitudes of braindead retards.

No, not ALL teachers work longer than school hours. The good ones put in the extra effort.

Still, the holidays on offer for teachers is excellent. No matter how you look at it.

mr_wowtrousers8:32 pm 11 Oct 10

Yeah, because teachers don’t get in at 7:45 and leave after 5pm because they have to look after the little turds until mummy turns up. Then the lesson preparation and the marking. Then dealing with the crappy parents of the little turds.

My mum was a teacher and there isn’t much to be said about it. She just warned me against it even though I have a natural ability for it (have taught some semesters OS, at uni and within work environments). Crap pay, long hours and little reward. Why bother?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
JohnKnox accidently wrote:

“Crap pay? Seems to me the pay is about right for the hours teachers have to work. I mean seriously you expect teachers to be paid the same as people doing 9+ hours per day jobs for 51 weeks of the year? Start working real times then we’ll talk about getting real wages.”

JohnKnox said :

Crap pay? Seems to me the pay is about right for the hours teachers have to work. I mean seriously you expect teachers to be paid the same as people doing 9+ hours per day jobs for 51 weeks of the year? Start working real times then we’ll talk about getting real wages.

Another myth comes out. All teachers work longer than ‘school hours’ and many work weekends and most afternoons (doing everything from marking tests to coaching sports teams or taking out of class music lessons, etc.)

This sort of attitude is the reason that more males don’t teach – because they’ll have to put up with the dismissive attitudes of braindead retards.

Crap pay? Seems to me the pay is about right for the hours teachers have to work. I mean seriously you expect teachers to be paid the same as people doing 9+ hours per day jobs for 51 weeks of the year? Start working real times then we’ll talk about getting real wages.

I can’t believe that most grads dont get a permanent job for a few years, are on term to term contracts that dont pay them anything during the holidays. It just drives so many out of teaching – that Christmas holiday job becomes the permanent job.

Or, of course, the good ones/ones that are teaching in areas of short supply get snapped up by the private schools.

I think a lot of women teachers more genuinely see teaching as a ‘calling’ (for want of a better word) than men, who see it as a job they might like. So when they get stuffed around, the men quit but the women are more persistent.

Housebound said

“There is no career as rewarding as the one that you enjoy…”

“Oh, and you have to actually like the age group of kids you intend teaching…”

Gerry-built said “Too True!”

+ 1

georgesgenitals10:18 am 11 Oct 10

Gerry-Built said :

I was actually paid more in my ‘holiday job’ at Bunnings than I was in my first teaching position. I did, however, work penalty rates on Thursday and Friday nights, and Saturday morning (ie 6 days a week).

This is pretty normal, I think. When I started in my first graduate position, I was working for a major accounting and consulting firm (one of the big 4, as they’re called), and was paid less per hour than when I was working at a servo as a uni student.

But you have to start somewhere. I’m all for paying teachers a lot more than they get now, but I’d expect some performance measurement and management ot go with it.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

…and the salary is more attractive than if you were working full-time at Aldi – just.

I was actually paid more in my ‘holiday job’ at Bunnings than I was in my first teaching position. I did, however, work penalty rates on Thursday and Friday nights, and Saturday morning (ie 6 days a week). I think there have been great improvements in starting salary in the last few years though, including (limited) recognition of prior experience.

Anyhow – Whilst it would be nice if it a little higher so as to be more attractive, I don’t think pay is really a great issue, because teachers don’t teach for the attractive pay. Most actually feel drawn to the idea of working with kids and passing on what they genuinely see as valuable knowledge and skills. I think most teachers would take more attractive conditions (more appropriate management of ongoing problem behaviours, office and classroom furnishings, resources, materials etc) over genuinely higher pay at any rate.

Does anyone know if ACT pays higher for teachers than other areas, taking into consideration that Public Service raises the average salary significantly?

inappropriate and Pommy’s comments are interesting, and I’d have to say I agree. To add, I tutor undergrad kids and most 3rd & 4th year students are borderline retarded and lazy. They are in for a huge shock when they have to step out of the cotton wool.

Spend all that extra time in school to be paid less than other jobs and then all it takes is one accusation from a kid who doesn’t like being given a detention and your career is basically over and you have to start again.

What’s not to love?

Low pay and conditions apply to women in teaching also.

Perhaps the more family friendly hours of teaching keep women with young families in teaching for a bit longer.

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

Well, I can’t put it any better than that.

Primary school teaching is run by women for women.

georgesgenitals11:13 pm 10 Oct 10

DJ said :

I found the comment “Bring on performance based pay I say! That might bring the men in. They like to compete!” very interesting.

Would you add a bonus to your normal salary based on the results the students achieve? Isn’t that recieving a benefit from other teachers performing well and making you a slave to their professionalism?

Do you measure before and after results and how? What about a situation where you have one or more students that perform at a lower than average standard? Does your pay go down as a result?

Although I think there needs to be more to the story than simply the results the students achieve, having your bonus or salary change influenced by other people and factors you can’t control is actually pretty normal for other professionals. I can have an amazing year in my job, but if others screw up and the overall business line doesn’t do well, my bonus can be small or non-existent. Other times, the performance of others works in my favour.

Expecting a bonus based purely on your own input is, I think, a bit unrealistic.

housebound said :

There is no career as rewarding as the one that you enjoy…

Oh, and you have to actually like the age group of kids you intend teaching…

Too true!

Like everything, there’s bits of truth in what most people have said.

The pay isn’t so bad, really, unless money is all you measure yourself by. Starting slary was well above average graduate salary for many years, I assume it still is.

Most parents/carers/grandparents do respect their teachers. Everyone loves the talented teachers, and everyone wants to dodge the duds. Most schools I have been associated with have parents lobbying hard for the good teachers, regardless of gender. In fact, a male teacher is regarded as an asset for the older primary years. The teachers who complain the most (about status, pay etc) usually aren’t the ones parents fight to have teach their kids.

BerraBoy68 has identified a major annoyance, though – the fact that teachers don’t count any other life experience as valuable. Interestingly, when teachers want to change careers, people are meant to respect everything they have done!

To anyone thinking of teaching: if there is a chance you could be one of the talented ones, go for it. There is no career as rewarding as the one that you enjoy. If your focus is money or status, then go be an accountant, or banker or whatever it is that gets the big money these days.

Oh, and you have to actually like the age group of kids you intend teaching.

BerraBoy68 said :

they look down their noses at people with this qualification as being sub-standard teachers….

I’ve never come across that in nearly 10 years of teaching… and I did a Grad Dip… following two other quals…

The B.Ed is just a degree with Grad Dip built in anyhow…

Your biggest problem would be the huge drop in pay…

@13, is there no recognition of prior learning with your quals? Does none of your history or sociology not carry over to B. Ed?

BerraBoy, why would you care what snobs think? You’re just pandering to their snobbery! You probably would make a better teacher than most of the teachers that look down on you, but having experienced corporate employment, you probably wouldn’t tolerate the employment conditions in schools for very long.

I suspect that we may be attracting just as many young males into teaching as any other state, but with more opportunities around, we’re just not keeping them. Female employees tend to be more stable in most environments, and move on less often, so with more opportunities around, males just move into greener pastures.

I’m one of them. I have been out for two years, and I still refer to myself as a ‘recovering teacher’, and I meet other recovering teachers all the time, much more often than you’d expect. I suspect that there is just a very high turnover of staff in all education systems, and since the profession still retains a kind of romantic aura, there is no shortage of fodder for the system, so there’s no need for DET to do anything about it.

When I left teaching, after five years in the profession, I learnt that the average career span of a teacher was five years. I remain unimpressed at being so very average, but there are just as many teachers not teaching as there are teachers teaching, so I’d like to see statistics on the number of non-practising teachers who are male.

I’m in the final year at Uni of Canberra in Secondary Education, and not just is there a noticeable lack of male teachers, but the vast majority that I see are doing P.E teaching. Makes employment prospects for myself look decent, but worrying sign of things to come potentially.

I’m thinking about becoming a teacher here in the ACT but am having second thoughts. As someone on a very good salary in the corporate world and having had more 25 years real life experience since leaving school I thought I may actually have had something to contribute to the classroom. So, for me, taking on teaching would entail a major pay-cut but one I could be willing to take as a life choice. However, as I also have a family to support and don’t have a spare 3 years to do a B.Ed, the best route into the profession for me is the Grad Dip in Teaching (part-time).

What I’m finding, however, is that the teachers I talk to about my plans tell me they look down their noses at people with this qualification as being sub-standard teachers. They totally ignore my BA in history and sociology as well as a Masters degree and the fact that I’ve lived a lot longer then them and may actually have some life skills that I can pass on to kids. On top of that, only this week I’ve heard stories about parents actually telling their kids schools (Primary schools, admittedly) that they specifically do not want their kids in a class with a male teacher just in case the kid has an accident and has to be taken by the teacher to the toilet!

In short,all this is important to me in re-thinking my plans to become a teacher as the attitude of both current teachers and parents (and through them their kids) towards people such as myself entering the profession is almost totally negative, so why bother!?

I found the comment “Bring on performance based pay I say! That might bring the men in. They like to compete!” very interesting.

Would you add a bonus to your normal salary based on the results the students achieve? Isn’t that recieving a benefit from other teachers performing well and making you a slave to their professionalism?

Do you measure before and after results and how? What about a situation where you have one or more students that perform at a lower than average standard? Does your pay go down as a result?

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

Spot on, every male teacher is only one disgruntled female student away from a ruined career/reputation.

Woody Mann-Caruso5:32 pm 10 Oct 10

It worries me that I get paid more as a desk jockey in the public service than the top pay scale of a school principal. Supervise 30 staff? You’re a Band 1 Branch Manager, with a nice little team of EL2s and EL1s to help you. Take responsibility for educating 30 kids? Well, you’re on your own, and the salary is more attractive than if you were working full-time at Aldi – just.

Personally, I also think men generally have a lower tolerance for and ability to deal with poor classroom behaviour, so the chances of firstly attracting, and subsequently retaining male teachers is lower. Particularly when ‘the system’ provides limited ways to deal with students who are ongoing behaviour problems, and they are simply returned to their classes after a period of suspension (at worst).

A Classroom Teacher at the top of the pay scale receives pay equivalent to a mid-range APS 6, so pay is an issue too.

grunge_hippy3:42 pm 10 Oct 10

80% of young male teachers are shit IMO. They want to be the kids friends rather than a teacher, therefore the kids walk all over them. Like Pommy bastard said in a long winded pompous way, there is no recourse for discipline and consequences anymore and kids know that. moreover, parents know that and constantly make excuses for their children’s behaviour. when I was a kid, if the parents got called, that meant big trouble. These days it means big trouble for the teacher because usually the parent gets up the teacher for picking on their poor child. then you’ve got the whole pedo aspect, the parents might think the male teacher is praying on their kid. No wonder they aren’t teaching.

Also, a lot of males don’t want to teach the lower grades. There are definitely more males in high school/college.

the old school male teachers are either past it and don’t care any more or have gotten the hell out. Its funny, during my primary schooling here in the ACT in the 80’s, I had only about 2 female teachers, the rest were male. You definitely don’t see that any more.

don’t even get me started on the pay aspect. I am 11 years out of uni, already been at the top of my pay scale for several years and unless I want to be an executive teacher (deputy etc) there is no more pay increases bar the EBA agreements. I have even completed my masters and it means squat. Bring on performance based pay I say! That might bring the men in. They like to compete!

p1 said :

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

These are the three biggest reasons I didn’t go into teaching.

Just add in the political correct world gone mad that censors the curriculum to the useless topics and creates a system that prevents teachers from being able to properly control and discipline the students.

UrbanAdventure.org3:17 pm 10 Oct 10

p1 said :

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

These are the three biggest reasons I didn’t go into teaching.

Same. I have a very clear personal defanition of what is right and wrong when it comes to ethics and fiddling with kids is a major no no. But What happens if you’re doing your best to teach kids, and some silly kid develops a hate of you for whatever reason and suddenly you find yourself acccused of something you would never do? I just don’t think it would be worth it. Then there are violent, agressive kids, kids who bring knives to class, kids who are not afraid of the only discipline you can dish out which is a detention of visit to the principle’s office.

I mean there are frequent stories in the media of kids attacking teachers, teachers left with permenant injuries and their careers over. Frankly I am incredibly surprised that the teachers are not directly suing kids or having kids charged or getting AVOs against kids. For some stupid reason it seems that teachers are supposed to put up with that crap. I think if kids are going to to push boundries in a non harmful way, fine. But violence is not acceptable. If a kid attacks a teacher, verbally or physically, then the legal concequences of restraining orders, suspension and legal charges should be used. None of this pandering to the kid.

As for kids that make flase accusations against teachers, that’s it, you’re out of the mainstream education system for good.

I may sound a bit extreeme here, a bit harsh, but really, wouldd you accept kids coming into your work place, hassling you, threatening you and then physicallly attacking you? Heck no, you’d be calling the police straight away and expecting those kids to be dealt with harshly.

PB, I don’t know about the UK system, but exams here certainly aren’t getting easier. As parents & Uni lecturers constantly tell me, we (ie, NSW & ACT) expect ore from year 12 essays than fourth year undergrads.

Instead of slamming the teachers, how about we focus more on the society that generates these children, accepts & encourages their behaviours, and then makes excuses for them.

Teachers are expected to be more highly qualified now than ever before (to the point that when they become fulltime staff they need to undergo an ‘probationary’ period, where they have to collect evidence akin to an accreditation system. The Institute of Teachers (http://www.nswteachers.nsw.edu.au/) requires assignments akin to 4th year Education degree portfolios in order to become a registered teacher (like a CPA, in some respects).

I’ve (thankfully) not taught in the UK, but a lot of what I hear sounds absolutely demoralising.

As for why more blokes aren’t in teaching, it’s simple. At one stage about ten years back, there was an instruction from a State Dept that essentially meant that a child who had fallen over was not allowed to be picked back up by a male member of staff. That restriction still exists to a lesser extent today.

Inappropriate got the nail on the head (although seriously, the pay isn’t that bloody bad – teachers just like to whinge a lot).

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

I love teaching, thought about and looked into it but this pretty much sums it up. Even have undergrad and postgrad study in science/maths/IT which I’m told they can’t recruit. Never get me in a school class room – not work the grief or pay cut.

Inappropriate said :

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

These are the three biggest reasons I didn’t go into teaching.

Pommy bastard1:46 pm 10 Oct 10

As an ex-teacher, not here admittedly, but in the UK, I would add these thoughts (based on the UK system.) The above , plus.

Successive generations of children are being betrayed by a destructive ethos that promotes low expectations, indiscipline and lack of academic rigour in the classroom. Ever higher grades are not an indicator of success. They are a facade to cover inadequacy.

The real problem is the educational culture, so full of sloppiness and sentimentality, dumbing-down and deceit. Bad behaviour is tolerated too easily, poor performance covered-up. Yes there is racism in the system, but it usually comes from guilt-ridden white liberals who allow young non white students to remain trapped in the downward cycle of failure.

We are all meant to be professional cheerleaders for the system. Dissent is regarded as a form of heresy. In one sense I can understand the outlook of my school.

The headteachers and governors inhabit a competitive world where any negative publicity can be seen as a threat to school’s status, funding and league table position.

The overall educational culture – created by politicians, bureaucrats and theorists – which has let down our children so badly.

For a start, it is obvious that exams have become far easier in recent years.

The same insidious process applies to subjects and qualifications.

Meanwhile, areas of study such as modern languages, science and history are in decline simply because they are more demanding. There is now a chronic lack of robustness in the classroom, reflected in the increasing use of coursework rather than exams.

Again this makes life easier for pupils but it also undermines the integrity of their achievement, for they can keep on retaking their modules until they reach the desired grade. Furthermore, they are given intensive guidance and support by their teachers.

The same feebleness can be seen in the absence of proper discipline in the classroom. Recalcitrant pupils know that schools have precious few tough sanctions against unruly behaviour, particularly because heads are reluctant to use permanent exclusions for fear of being reprimanded by the education authority.

In particular, heads and teachers can be left in an impossible position over taking tough action against some pupils because of anxiety over potential accusations of racism. But such an approach does those students no favours at all, for it sends out the dubious message that they cannot be expected to be held to the same standards demanded of other pupils, making a mockery of the very notion of equality.

The defenders of the status quo are living in fantasy. If the system is so good, then why do universities and employers complain so bitterly about low levels of skills, numeracy and literacy?

Inappropriate1:36 pm 10 Oct 10

It’s simple: shit pay, poor career progression, and the constant threat of being labelled a kiddy-fiddler.

the rotation system where you have to move schools after x years?

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