23 February 2011

Canberra not racist but anti-muslim?

| johnboy
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Minister for things Multicultural, Joy Burch, is trying to put lipstick on a pig, celebrating a report showing Canberrans are less racist than the rest of Australia. (Higher average education might have more to do with that than innate Canberra awesomeness).

There was, however, a bit of an onion in the ointment:

Ms Burch noted that the study also raised some worrying statistics, particularly around anti-Muslim sentiment. While faring better than the rest of the country, Ms Burch said 41 per cent of ACT residents surveyed saying they had “anti Muslim concern” was disappointing.

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dundle said :

dundle said :

Bosworth said :

It is important to make a distinction between the religion of islam and a person that is a muslim.

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

Every muslim I know is a kind, considerate person.

Contradict yourself much?

How can they be kind and considerate if they honestly believe in this violence and misogynism? Either they’re deep down violent and misogynistic (whilst kind on the surface), or they’re complete hypocrites that don’t really believe what they claim to. In which case, why bother to identify yourself with the religion?

How can they be kind and considerate if they honestly believe in this violence and misogynism? I don’t know. I’m merely explaining my experience.

WoodenAgent said :

Bosworth said :

can you please explain how?

I think Bosworth et al should accept that Islam and Muslim are almost synonyms; but more than that, Bosworth demonstrates the true nature of racism. Bosworth says “All X are bad, but the X I know are good.” This is not sustainable, but is standard, common cognitive dissonance that we all do.

In searching for a way out of this contradiction, I suspect Richard Dawkins may have the answer. We have selfish genes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
(and Theism is only an expression of that selfishness, and justification for racism.)

Islam and muslim are clearly not synonyms – ‘a muslim’ is a person, ‘an islam’ is not a person. Islam includes a list of beliefs. The beliefs are mostly incorrect. The muslims that I know are kind people, that just happed to believe some false things (as we all do).

Thankyou for attempting to paint me as a racist, though. :/

Also, have you even read that book, or only the title? You are displaying a severe misunderstanding of its contents. I have read the book, and that it not what it says.

As an athiest, how do I know which god is going to punish/torture me first? (now there’s a paradox!)

WoodenAgent said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I am decidely anti-religious – does this make me anti muslim?

Sorry, but, yes, being anti-religious makes you not just anti-muslim, but an enemy of the State in nearly every country in the world.

This is because you have your own ethics, making you ‘self-actualising’, giving you self-control, motivation and confidence, helping you know right from wrong, and set appropriate boundaries. And tolerance.

The problem for the State and all theist Religions is that they cannot control you.

Uh…I originally read that and thought “No…that doesn’t sound right”. Then after a few more readings I decided that I just didn’t understand it all.

All atheists in the LSWCHP family, FWIW.

Bosworth said :

can you please explain how?

I think Bosworth et al should accept that Islam and Muslim are almost synonyms; but more than that, Bosworth demonstrates the true nature of racism. Bosworth says “All X are bad, but the X I know are good.” This is not sustainable, but is standard, common cognitive dissonance that we all do.

In searching for a way out of this contradiction, I suspect Richard Dawkins may have the answer. We have selfish genes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
(and Theism is only an expression of that selfishness, and justification for racism.)

shadow boxer said :

That’s true JB but this is the bit I never understand about Christians or any religion, you either believe the word of god as written or you don’t, you can’t just cherry pick the bits you like either

Since there is no God, and we’re totally, solely responsible for our situations, we certainly can pick and choose biblical quotes, just as we do with Shakespeare. (Even Theists are situationally selective.)

The bible is a collection of stories, just like any other. Look a bit wider, and you will see common ethics ‘everywhere’.

But I don’t understand how the USA can hold the Christian commandment “do not kill” at the same time as the second amendment – the right to bear arms. And that’s just one.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I am decidely anti-religious – does this make me anti muslim?

Sorry, but, yes, being anti-religious makes you not just anti-muslim, but an enemy of the State in nearly every country in the world.

This is because you have your own ethics, making you ‘self-actualising’, giving you self-control, motivation and confidence, helping you know right from wrong, and set appropriate boundaries. And tolerance.

The problem for the State and all theist Religions is that they cannot control you.

dundle said :

Bosworth said :

It is important to make a distinction between the religion of islam and a person that is a muslim.

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

Every muslim I know is a kind, considerate person.

Contradict yourself much?

How can they be kind and considerate if they honestly believe in this violence and misogynism? Either they’re deep down violent and misogynistic (whilst kind on the surface), or they’re complete hypocrites that don’t really believe what they claim to. In which case, why bother to identify yourself with the religion?

georgesgenitals1:58 pm 24 Feb 11

shadow boxer said :

That’s true JB but this is the bit I never understand about Christians or any religion, you either believe the word of god as written or you don’t, you can’t just cherry pick the bits you like either

I’m no religious scholar, let’s call that out right up front! It seems to me, though, that books like the bible have lots of stories about stuff that happened ages ago, and some bits that represent instructions or rules.

What we’re supposed to do with that information, though, I’m still working on…

dundle said :

Bosworth said :

It is important to make a distinction between the religion of islam and a person that is a muslim.

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

Every muslim I know is a kind, considerate person.

Contradict yourself much?

can you please explain how?

shadow boxer12:18 pm 24 Feb 11

That’s true JB but this is the bit I never understand about Christians or any religion, you either believe the word of god as written or you don’t, you can’t just cherry pick the bits you like either

Bosworth said :

It is important to make a distinction between the religion of islam and a person that is a muslim.

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

Every muslim I know is a kind, considerate person.

Contradict yourself much?

Yeah but you can cherry pick any ancient text for some dreadful bits.

Stevian said :

Bosworth said :

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

.

Are you knowingly making a false statement, or just a complete idiot? I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter

Don’t bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33

Be stern with disbelievers. They are going to Hell anyway. 66:9

Don’t make friends with Allah’s enemies. For those who do so, Allah has prepared a dreadful doom. 58:14-15

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Allah will make life miserable for those who deny his revelations and then he will torment them forever in the Hereafter. And they will not be helped. 41:15-16

Those who deny the revelations of Allah are perverted. 40:63

Those who ignore Allah’s “clear proofs” will be seized and punished severely. 40:22

Those who “did wrong” will go to hell, and their wives will go to hell with them (no matter how they behaved). 37:22-23

Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61

The worst thing you can do is to deny the revelations of Allah. 32:22

Those who deny Muhammad’s revelations will be destroyed. 25:36

Allah leads disbelievers astry while he torments them in this life. Then after they die, he makes them uffer even more pain in the doom of the Hereafter. 13:33-34

Allah gave Muhammad the one true religion and sent him to conquer all other (false) religions. 61:9

Don’t question anything Muhammed says or choose disbelief over faith. 2:108

So fight (O Muhammad) in the way of Allah … Allah will restrain the might of those who disbelieve.” So fight for Allah. Allah will always rig the battle so that Muslims will defeat non-Muslims. 4:84

Those who deny Muhammad’s revelations are like dogs. 7:176

Those who deny Muhammad’s revelation are evil. 7:177

Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis.9:34

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

Do whatever Muhammad tells you to do. (Or you’ll go to hell.) 59:7

Stevian said :

Bosworth said :

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

.

Are you knowingly making a false statement, or just a complete idiot? I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter

A 16-year-old muslim girl was buried alive by relatives in southeastern Turkey in a gruesome honor killing carried out because she reportedly befriended boys, the Anatolia news agency reported Thursday.

Acting on a tip, police discovered the body of the girl, identified only as M.M., in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a 2-meter-deep hole dug under a chicken pen outside her house in Kahta, a town in the southeastern province of Ad?yaman, the news agency reported.

The body was found in December, around 40 days after M.M. went missing. She is being identified by her initials because she was under the age of 18. Her father and grandfather are suspected in the murder.

A subsequent postmortem examination revealed that M.M. had a significant amount of soil in her lungs and stomach, indicating that she was buried alive and conscious, forensic experts told the news agency. “The autopsy result is blood-curdling. According to our findings, the girl – who had no bruises on her body and no sign of narcotics or poison in her blood – was alive and fully conscious when she was buried,” one anonymous expert said

georgesgenitals11:40 am 24 Feb 11

There have always (and probably will always) been people who are violent nutcases. Religion is just the veneer they use. It’s also a convenient thing to hide behind at times for those who don’t like change, or want justify their views.

Most people who are religious simply want to live their lives, regardless of the flavour of religion. That’s been my experience, anyway.

Pommy bastard11:19 am 24 Feb 11

Bosworth said :

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

All religions are false.

The rest I cannot fault.

Bosworth said :

Every muslim I know is a kind, considerate person.

Nearly every one I know is a kind, considerate person too, but they have their share of headbangers just like every other group.

Four men launched a horrific attack on a teacher in which they slashed his face and left him with a fractured skull because they did not approve of him teaching religion to Muslim girls.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359160/4-men-slashed-teachers-face-teaching-religions-Muslim-girls.html#ixzz1Edhne7pK

Bosworth said :

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

.

Are you knowingly making a false statement, or just a complete idiot? I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter

Bosworth said :

It is important to make a distinction between the religion of islam and a person that is a muslim.

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

Every muslim I know is a kind, considerate person.

I feel the same about Christianity. Except I have met some Christians who are not kind.

It is important to make a distinction between the religion of islam and a person that is a muslim.

The religion of islam is false, opressive towards women, dangerous to non-muslims, and a negative impact on the wellbeing of communities.

Every muslim I know is a kind, considerate person.

troll-sniffer5:17 pm 23 Feb 11

daddy said :

I have a small property I rented to a young couple from Pakistan. Both Muslims. You should hear their opinion of the Muslim extremists operating in Pakistan! I thought my opinion was pretty strong.

Hmmm that is a very unsettling concept… speaking with one’s tenants. Must give it a try sometime for a spot of sport what.

Holden Caulfield4:18 pm 23 Feb 11

daddy said :

I have a small property I rented to a young couple from Pakistan. Both Muslims. You should hear their opinion of the Muslim extremists operating in Pakistan! I thought my opinion was pretty strong. These are people whose family are not even able to go about their daily life for fear of being blown up. The term animals came up a lot and he didn’t spit as he was inside … They are educated people as well. He is in IT, she is part way through her PhD in IT.

I wonder if they were asked the right question if they would return as part of the Anti Muslim group?

Haha, that’s an awesome question!

el_presidente3:58 pm 23 Feb 11

What Star Wars universe have you been watching?? Last time I looked, Jedi carried light sabres like Catholics carry crucifixes, Yoda was going through stormtroopers like a Moulis Mixer, and some radicalized militant Jedi created the Death Star, blew up a planet or two, and were seeking to oppress the entire universe. Even their troops had to cover their faces.

Actual Jedi would be vicious bastards and i’m sure I would be very scared of them. I was thinking more of the fat, 40 year old virgin type Jedi worshippers who have perhaps watched Star Wars one too many times… Pretty much this guy:

http://www.27bslash6.com/images/jason_jedi.jpg

I have a small property I rented to a young couple from Pakistan. Both Muslims. You should hear their opinion of the Muslim extremists operating in Pakistan! I thought my opinion was pretty strong. These are people whose family are not even able to go about their daily life for fear of being blown up. The term animals came up a lot and he didn’t spit as he was inside … They are educated people as well. He is in IT, she is part way through her PhD in IT.

I wonder if they were asked the right question if they would return as part of the Anti Muslim group?

el_presidente said :

I do not discriminate between groups on the grounds of religion. They are all equally bad in my eyes (other than perhaps Jedi – those guys seem pretty harmless).

What Star Wars universe have you been watching?? Last time I looked, Jedi carried light sabres like Catholics carry crucifixes, Yoda was going through stormtroopers like a Moulis Mixer, and some radicalized militant Jedi created the Death Star, blew up a planet or two, and were seeking to oppress the entire universe. Even their troops had to cover their faces.

futto said :

I wonder if they also found out how many Muslims have “anti-western concern”?

Good point. It would be interesting to see a proper survey of Muslim attitudes to some western things, then I guess we could all be arguing about what is, vs impressions.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I am decidely anti-religious – does this make me anti muslim?

Australia apparently has quite high rates of anti-religiousness (though it’s hard to formally survey, and atheism/no religion isn’t the same thing), and I think Canberra even more so? Which might explain some of the results.

GottaLoveCanberra1:53 pm 23 Feb 11

el_presidente said :

I do not discriminate between groups on the grounds of religion. They are all equally bad in my eyes (other than perhaps Jedi – those guys seem pretty harmless).

The Jedi just use mind tricks to make you think that they’re harmless, don’t fall for it!

screaming banshee1:43 pm 23 Feb 11

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I am decidely anti-religious – does this make me anti muslim?

+1

I wasn’t really paying attention but I’m pretty sure the one nation moron on q&a was quite happy to have a multicultural australia as long as its a christian multicultural australia and that muslims should respect and honour australia’s religion. Wanker

Pommy bastard1:39 pm 23 Feb 11

p1 said :

I thought it was a simple as ticking a box in the census?

I did that once, I’m now a Jewish Rasterfarian Buddist.

Clown Killer1:34 pm 23 Feb 11

So what do I do to reverse the process JB?

shneyney123 said :

Not quite that simple

I thought it was a simple as ticking a box in the census?

Erg0 said :

They might as well ask how you’d feel about your sister marrying a cyclist. Or (gasp) a bogan!

I’d be against my sister marrying a One Nation supporter.

I get a little uncomfortable around many people who express strong religious feelings. I think it is a the worry that they can hold such strong beliefs about something with no evidence, what else might they hold such strong beliefs about?

ahappychappy1:07 pm 23 Feb 11

futto said :

I wonder if they also found out how many Muslims have “anti-western concern”? Or is bigotry and intolerance only possible for us evil, secular anglo oppressors?

Didn’t you know – only majority groups can be intolerant of minority groups…

Ridiculous.

colourful sydney racing identity1:05 pm 23 Feb 11

I am decidely anti-religious – does this make me anti muslim?

I wonder if they also found out how many Muslims have “anti-western concern”? Or is bigotry and intolerance only possible for us evil, secular anglo oppressors?

johnboy said :

Erg0 said :

Based on the CT website’s story, the question on which the 41% was actually “how would you feel if a close family member were to marry someone with a (insert race/religion) background”. Apprarently this is a standard question used by demographers when surveying on racism, but it would seem to be flawed when it comes to muslims since there are some special factors at play – muslim attitudes towards marriage are a specific hot button issue, and raising it within the question is more likely to provoke a negative response than, say, “how would you feel about having a muslim neighbour”. As such, that number seems highly misleading.

Plus, Islam is not a race.

Any of you can point two fingers at the sky, follow it up by saying:

“I bear witness that there is no God except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”

and then in arabic:

“Ash hadu anlla ilaha ilallah, wa ash hadu anna Muhammadan rasul ullah”

Bingo you’re a muslim.

Not quite that simple

Pommy bastard12:40 pm 23 Feb 11

Erg0 said :

They might as well ask how you’d feel about your sister marrying a cyclist.

Go wash your mouth out with soap young man!

el_presidente11:58 am 23 Feb 11

I do not discriminate between groups on the grounds of religion. They are all equally bad in my eyes (other than perhaps Jedi – those guys seem pretty harmless).

Well, indeed – the CT compares the percentage for muslims to the percentage for aboriginals, which seems pretty arbitrary. It seems to be an attempt at collating rates of bigotry more than anything else. They might as well ask how you’d feel about your sister marrying a cyclist. Or (gasp) a bogan!

Erg0 said :

Based on the CT website’s story, the question on which the 41% was actually “how would you feel if a close family member were to marry someone with a (insert race/religion) background”. Apprarently this is a standard question used by demographers when surveying on racism, but it would seem to be flawed when it comes to muslims since there are some special factors at play – muslim attitudes towards marriage are a specific hot button issue, and raising it within the question is more likely to provoke a negative response than, say, “how would you feel about having a muslim neighbour”. As such, that number seems highly misleading.

Plus, Islam is not a race.

Any of you can point two fingers at the sky, follow it up by saying:

“I bear witness that there is no God except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”

and then in arabic:

“Ash hadu anlla ilaha ilallah, wa ash hadu anna Muhammadan rasul ullah”

Bingo you’re a muslim.

Do we know the actual survey question or what the respondents said? I’ve seen a few articles on this but without knowing the actual questions, answers or who was surveyed it seems very unreliable. They’re also mixing up religions and races. One article I read said the question referred to was about whether you’d have concern with a family member marrying someone of a different race/religion. I don’t think that’s a very good question.

Pommy bastard11:26 am 23 Feb 11

What is “anti-muslim concern”?

what is ‘anti-muslim concern? i should think i should be concerned by ‘anti-muslim’ sentiment…

and i am sooo out of touch? but i can’t imagine 40% of folk who i know and with whom i work/socialise are anti-muslim… am i in a bubble?

Based on the CT website’s story, the question on which the 41% was actually “how would you feel if a close family member were to marry someone with a (insert race/religion) background”. Apprarently this is a standard question used by demographers when surveying on racism, but it would seem to be flawed when it comes to muslims since there are some special factors at play – muslim attitudes towards marriage are a specific hot button issue, and raising it within the question is more likely to provoke a negative response than, say, “how would you feel about having a muslim neighbour”. As such, that number seems highly misleading.

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