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Canberra Protest against Israeli attacks on Gaza Flotilla

By applicot 1 June 2010 115

Canberra Protest against Israeli attacks on the Gaza Flotilla

5.30pm, Tuesday 1 June

Outside Israeli Embassy, 6 Turrana St Yarralumla

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Canberra Protest against Israeli attacks on Gaza Flotilla
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peterepete 8:46 pm 09 Jun 10

I just read this whole thread and find sirocco’s comment sadly insightful. I don’t think anyone will argue this one to conclusion no matter how correct the argument is.

Its a diversion I know but didn’t the “truth and reconciliation” approach post apartheid in SAF have something going for it in another situation where there was pain and injustice felt by all. They must have had some pretty serious governance of the conversations that were had.

sirocco 11:28 pm 08 Jun 10

If we in Oz, in this virtual paradise of peace on the other side of the world, can’t agree on how things might be resolved without getting personal and snippy what chance do israelis and palestinians have at a lasting peace?

🙂

Trashman 5:15 pm 06 Jun 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

As someone said earlier, it really IS pointless isn’t it?

So long as you keep coming back to this complex issue with ‘some basic research on the internet’ and ‘limited legal knowledge’, yes, it’s utterly pointless for you to continue.

Just as pointless as it is for insulting bigots like you to contribute when you couldn’t look at both sides of a debate if your mother’s life depended on it.

And YOUR super-duper backup plan for the soldiers would have been…what? In typical armchair-expert fashion you let fly about how something was done wrong but either can’t tell us what the right course of action was or come up with options so half-assed as to be laughable

WOODY ACTION PLAN #1: Commandos get back on the helicopter
No problem, genius. They’ll just fire up their jet-powered rocket-pants and junior birdman their back up into the aircraft.

WOODY ACTION PLAN #2: Deploy riot police
How inspired. Oh hang on a sec. Are the Israeli riot police trained for insertion by sea or air onto a moving ocean vessel? No? You say that’s dangerous even for trained military personnel? Ah what the heck. We’ll give it a go anyway.

I mean seriously, for all your claims of superior intelligence do you even THINK?

To the soldiers on deck at the time this was not a complex geo-political conundrum. It was, “Shit! There are half a dozen people with knives and iron bars coming at me. I have no way out and my mates are facing same.”

Was putting them in that situation an insane act by their commanding officers? YES! But having been placed in that situation, Woody ol’ fruit, what were they supposed to do?

If the Isreali government had done the decent thing and simply let the ships pass then no-one would have died.

If the Israeli military had planned the raid better then no-one would have died.

But here’s one more, oh Woody of the enlarged cranial capacity. Prepare to stick your fingers in your ears and go, “Lah lah lah lah lahhhhhhh! I AM NOT LISTENIIIIIING!”.

If the passengers on the Mavimara had shown the same restraint as those on the other five ships then no-one would have died.

CraigT 8:55 am 05 Jun 10

All I can say is that I hope the next ship is better prepared: the Turkish ships should keep a few big concrete blocks with steel hooks along their decks. That way, when the zionazis drop ropes from their helicopters, you quickly tie the rope to the concrete block, push the concrete block off the deck and into the sea. Bye-bye helicopter full of zionazis.

The Traineediplomat 11:00 pm 04 Jun 10

As the great man once said… I don’t eat pork and you don’t eat pork, so why don’t we not eat pork together.

Woody Mann-Caruso 10:28 am 04 Jun 10

As someone said earlier, it really IS pointless isn’t it?

So long as you keep coming back to this complex issue with ‘some basic research on the internet’ and ‘limited legal knowledge’, yes, it’s utterly pointless for you to continue.

Have you even looked into this whole thing besides scanning the odd article?

If by ‘the odd article’ you mean ‘directing people to primary UN sources and expert legal analysis’, then perhaps you might try lifting your ‘scanning’ to my standard.

Their planning worked perfectly on the other five ships

So their plan worked until it didn’t, and their non-existent backup plan was “shoot your way out with side arms”? Who would’ve thought the biggest ship with the most people might have put up a fight? Riot police manage to deal with this sort of thing without murdering anybody, but Israeli super commandos? No, we figured we’d control 600 people with paint and no escape plan.

“There seem to be a lot of people on the deck and they’re armed. There are only a few of us and all we have are paintball markers.”
“Meh, let’s go down anyway. What’s the worst that could happen?”

p1 10:17 am 04 Jun 10

Bad judgement on the Israeli part to use commandos in the middle of the night. I am certain that it was not the intention of the Israelis to board the ship and cause casualties. I’m curious as to why the other ships were boarded without incident?

My opinion, as always, is informed by information garnered from the media and interwebz and therefore probably misinformed. That said, I believe the other ships were primarily carrying actual cargo, containing mostly sailors. The ship where the shit went down had 600 odd “activists” and the media they were performing for. Hence, a more enthusiastic response.

BimboGeek 9:58 am 04 Jun 10

I agree with all of you. The world is definitely full of arseholes who make life difficult for other people and themselves.

00Daniel00 9:06 am 04 Jun 10

#90p1 / #92Jim Jones

There’s the legal aspect and the moral aspect. Even if the blockade is legal, it doesn’t necessarily make it ‘right’. WMC provided an interesting link that gives further perspective on the legal aspect. The moral one is up to the individual to decide, that is if you agree with the idea of moral relativism. Personally I disagree with the blockade affecting the welfare of the people of Gaza.

One thing to consider. Is it acceptable for Israel to board ships to search them for weapons? I think it’s reasonable that a country take steps to stem the flow of weapons to groups which have and will continue to launch attachs upon it. Obviously the steps taken need to have some limits.

Captain RAAF, I do see your point. And as I’ve heard before, when it comes down to choosing between a conspiracy or plain stupidity to explain the events, it’s most likely going to be the latter. Bad judgement on the Israeli part to use commandos in the middle of the night. I am certain that it was not the intention of the Israelis to board the ship and cause casualties. I’m curious as to why the other ships were boarded without incident?

Captain RAAF 8:26 am 04 Jun 10

Postalgeek said :

Trashman said :

Captain RAAF said :

Trashman said :

So tell me something Cap’n. If a gang of armed Indigenous Australians broke into your home and murdered you and your family on the justification that ‘you’ stole their land and that ‘you’ have been persecuting, abusing and murdering them for the past 200 years would you also be saying, “Fair cop. It serves us right.”?

That’s a hard one mate….are these Aborigines that are breaking into my home bullet proof?

It’s a simple question Cap’n. Are you and yours in part responsible for all the misery caused by our government in the last 200 years and therefore deserving of being ‘eliminated’ by the aggrieved parties? Or is the doctrine of collective guilt only to be applied to Jews?

But hey if you’re too afraid to answer or simply incapable, no worries.

To be fair, if the Captain has been murdered, as you say, an absence of reply is pretty much all you should expect.

Fear not friends, I live still! Managed to avoind a horrible death at the hands of rampaging indiginous home invaders by the deft placement of a bottle of Beer at the front door, kept them occupied long enough for me to load up and await their entry….of course that never happened because they soon turned on themselves and were last seen staggering off down the street.

But I digress, Trashman I don’t feel that I or my forbears are in any way responsible for the hardships faced/perpetrated on the indiginous inhabitants of this country. I can’t seem to recall any history of my family getting involved with or supporting any regime set up to make the aborigines lives a misery or to wipe them out entirely. You of course will say that my forbears supported the government which means by extension they supported the attitudes that saw aborigines persecuted and mistreated but thats the easy option for someone without the balls to make the guilty face the heat and would rather tar everyone with the same brush, WAAAAIT a minute now, before you go saying “Thats what you want to do with the Jews!!!!” let me make it quite clear, I don’t care what happens to the Jews worldwide, in fact I’d happily have one living next door to me or dating my daughter but the ones in Israel are the architects of their own fate and deserve whatever it is. The world is tired of their presence there and what is is doing to the Middle-east.

By your logic, every single German in 1945 should have been rounded up and shot for supporting the Nazi party and their actions during the last great unpleasantness but of course you can’t do that can you? Why? because they were not responsible, thats why, they had no visibility of what was going on or were only fed propaganda. The situation was no different here.
My ancestors would have had no idea what was happening to the aborigines, probably because they were too busy fighting at Gallipoli, exploring Antarctica, sailing the worlds oceans in the Merchant Navy, Bombing the Nazi’s back to the stone age or making curtains, so there you have it, no I and mine are not responsible for anything except making this country a better place for everone. If one particular race would rather thumb their nose at all efforts to drag them out of the stoneage and resort to kicking my door in to do me harm then you bet I’ll blow them away and I’ll have the biggest shit eating grin on my dial while I’m doing it!

Trashman 8:05 am 04 Jun 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

can’t be arsed doing your due diligence or planning a proper op based on decent intel. You land and find yourself in the middle of a clusterf*ck. Do you get back on your chopper and retreat (in deserved disgrace) to maybe think things over a bit better, or just start shooting civilians?

Your credibility and claims to objectivity fade by the post. Have you even looked into this whole thing besides scanning the odd article?

Their planning worked perfectly on the other five ships and they rappelled down to the deck from a helicopter overhead. If you can explain how they were supposed to get back on board an aircraft in flight while being attacked then I’m sure every military in the world will be clamoring for your expertise.

Trashman 7:42 am 04 Jun 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :


Were the people on that ship responsible for all the misery caused by terrorist elements in the West Bank and therefore deserving of being ‘eliminated’ by the aggrieved parties? Or does the doctrine of collective guilt only apply to Arabs? But hey if you’re too afraid to answer or simply incapable, no worries.

No they weren’t responsible and didn’t deserve to die. Gosh, see how easy that was. It’s something that the good Cap’n (and apparently you despite your statement to the contrary)is incapable of though.

Paranoid Zionist? What? Because I was disgusted with the the good Cap’n stating that if all Jews were ‘eliminated’ then it would be ‘good riddance’?

Pathetic attempt at legal analysis? When did I claim to be a lawyer? I did some basic research on the internet and posted what I found. And with my limited legal knowledge it seemed to be solid.

Splitting hairs? Yeah because the fact that they were attacked was just a minor piffling detail, right?

Please pardon my mistake, Woody. I obviously mistook you for a reasonable human being who could discuss a subject with a degree of intelligence.

As someone said earlier, it really IS pointless isn’t it?

Woody Mann-Caruso 11:41 pm 03 Jun 10

(And look at all us night owls. We should be doing this at the Phoenix.)

Woody Mann-Caruso 11:37 pm 03 Jun 10

“You board the ferry and are attacked by the passengers with knives and iron bars. You respond with deadly force via semi-automatic pistol fire. Are your actions justified?”

If you want to split hairs:

You – highly trained commandos who claim to carry on the legacy of the tactical f*cking geniuses who pulled off the utter brilliance that was Operation Entebbe – can’t be arsed doing your due diligence or planning a proper op based on decent intel. You land and find yourself in the middle of a clusterf*ck. Do you get back on your chopper and retreat (in deserved disgrace) to maybe think things over a bit better, or just start shooting civilians?

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