7 September 2012

Canberra: the home of the $91,000 (plus overtime) bus driver

| PantsMan
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I was perusing the ACT Treasury’s STANDARD COSTING PARAMETERS 2012 (corrected version) and I happened upon the hitherto unknown costs of actually employing ACT Public Servants. The stunning numbers are here:

1.2 Cost Elements

Standard or benchmark costs are as follows.

1.2.1 Employment of Frontline Staff (Average Total Cost)

$91,000 per Bus Driver(a)

$95,000 per Classroom Teacher (a)

$132,000 per Fire Fighter (a)(b)

$147,000 per Fire Station Manager (a)(b)

$107,000 per Nurse(a)

$130,000 per Police Officer (Constable rank)(a)

$172,000 per Police Officer (Sergeant rank)(a)

Notes:

(a) Includes on-costs (workers compensation, superannuation, leave etc)

(b) Includes overtime provision

I suppose one is happy to know that some of our 90 per cent subsidy to ACTION is kicking back to the TWU members. And I suppose classroom teachers will be happy to know they are only $4,000 more worthy.

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Antagonist, you’re right with the Super.

Masquara, you are far from correct. We are entitled to 2 weeks leave – at Christmas. The rest is classified as ‘stand down’, which means we are not on ‘holidays’, we are working and if necessary at school at the whim of ACTEDT should they ‘order’ it. It’s not ‘extra’ leave btw. My pay goes over 26 weeks so I don’t know where you are getting the ‘extra’ 8 weeks from.

I’ve yet to see you take up my offer to teach my classes. Whilst I now work at a ‘good’ school (parent definition not mine), I highly doubt even my best students would not agree with your previous statements. I think you would last 1/2 a day (and I’m being generous). I’ll happily swap with you for the week 🙂

‘Volunteering’ is unpaid work. However, most people ‘whinge’ that teachers work from 9am until 3pm just for the pay cheque. It’s a joke.

Oh and I’m not a member of the AEU. I think they’re a bunch of idiots.

I do my job because I love it. Not because I want to make copious amounts of money. My students, and their parents, know this and that is what counts, not the ramblings of an uneducated whinger.

Masquara said :

nyssa1976 said :

For the OP, the highest a classroom teacher earns in the ACT atm is $84350.

Plus eight weeks extra leave – no contradiction to that statement having been posted. That makes the effective highest classroom teacher salary closer to $109,000 per annum. That’s pretty decent remuneration for an undergraduate qually by any measure.

There are also two superannuation components that are not being factored in. One is EPSC (Employer Superannuation Productivity Component) which is roughly 3% give or take, plus the ESC (Employer Superannuation Component) which is at least 10% depending on the super scheme (CSS, or the two PSS variants). Nyssa will be able to confirm this by having a quick peek at her payslip. I cannot provide exact figures because I no longer have access to the employer section of the ComSuper website.

The work Bus Drivers take home Innovation are stresses, stresses and more stresses that, not unlike police officers, stays with many of them through their retirement ie dealing with adults from all walks of life, juveniles and school children x 20yrs+ on average, listening and assisting many people and children on their buses up until around the year 2000 before the Canberra population exploded and many of the new OH&S regulations changed.

johnboy said :

Teachers who do other jobs might be shocked to discover that most of us take work home too. Unless you’re working in a low wage job with a punch card there’s much to be done.

And pretty much every EL1 level public servant I know usually works through lunch and puts in at least a 9-hour day, plus taking work home, on the equivalent salary to the aforementioned teacher’s salary with the 8 weeks extra leave taken into account. We all work long hours. Frankly I don’t think teachers work any harder than the rest of us. They’re just champion unionised whingers!

nyssa1976 said :

For the OP, the highest a classroom teacher earns in the ACT atm is $84350.

Plus eight weeks extra leave – no contradiction to that statement having been posted. That makes the effective highest classroom teacher salary closer to $109,000 per annum. That’s pretty decent remuneration for an undergraduate qually by any measure.

nyssa1976 said :

It’s people like you Masquara with an uneducated opinion who give credence to ‘teaching bashing’ and one of the reasons why teachers leave the profession after 3 years.

Er I haven’t had an answer to my simple question: how many weeks DO teachers get in a year? If it isn’t a total of three months, same as the schoolchildren – what is the total? Simple enough question, and if that’s incorrect, do say so. And spending a Sunday of extra-curricular time with students on a voluntary basis – sorry, but that doesn’t count as paid employment.

mcleodwealth10:15 pm 10 Sep 12

nyssa1976 said :

It’s people like you Masquara with an uneducated opinion who give credence to ‘teaching bashing’ and one of the reasons why teachers leave the profession after 3 years.

Are you people still engaging in that great Australian tradition of envy bashing? This has really propelled this nation toward greatness hasn’t it. That’s why so few of our great minds and performers have ever left.

This is also one of the reasons why most of Australian export income now comes from raw commodities (http://www.dfat.gov.au/publications/stats-pubs/cot-cy-2011.pdf). Which is ironic now that iron ore prices have been in free fall the last week if anyone has paid any attention.

Teachers should be lauded, they may be the last thing standing between us and the banana republic when the commodity tide rushes out and we’re left standing naked (economically). An early childhood teacher holds the future in their hands. It’s worth considering. I know I’d prefer a well paid well trained teacher with my children.

Essential services are called that for a reason, they’re essential. Meanwhile there are perhaps other ‘non essential’ expenditures that we would extract a higher return from examining more closely. A $480,000 fibreglass installation in Belconnen immediately springs to mind, as but one example. I am still not sure what the ‘return’ from this expenditure is meant to be.

This conversation would have some relevance if the question were asked about how the ACT’s international ranking has moved in the last few decades, and then go from there. Or how well our public transport system is functioning and meeting its goals. If we’re not where we should be, I’m not sure penalising teachers and bus drivers is the answer. This may only serve to assuage our never ending quest for pie-equality, without considering how to grow the pie.

johnboy said :

Teachers who do other jobs might be shocked to discover that most of us take work home too. Unless you’re working in a low wage job with a punch card there’s much to be done.

So are bus drivers low wage or do they take work home with them?

johnboy said :

Teachers who do other jobs might be shocked to discover that most of us take work home too. Unless you’re working in a low wage job with a punch card there’s much to be done.

Get off it JB.

They weren’t claiming that teachers work hours so extraordinary that their work stands out as a unique example of people who put in massive hours.

They were simply challenging the ridiculous notion that teachers get 12 weeks holidays a year.

I know someone who has been a police officer for over five years (First Constable rank) and his taxable income, including overtime, is just over $80,000.

Obviously the figures quoted above include on-costs, but it appears the on-cost proportion differs significantly depending on the profession. I assume that there is such a large difference between the total cost for a police officer (Constable rank) and their taxable income due to not only workers comp, leave and super but ongoing training, assessment and equipment etc.

Masquara said :

Darkfalz said :

Masquara said :

School teachers get three months holiday a year

There are people who still believe this utter nonsense?

How is it nonsense? How many weeks’ leave do you think schoolteachers have?

If you have a police check, I’ll get a colleague to supervise you as you take my classes and walk a week in my shoes.

I personally take 2 weeks off, but before you pitch a fit, that’s a 2 week block without one day of programming, planning, marking or resource locating. The ‘remainder’ are spent doing just that. I also go into work during school holidays and as a parent I usually take my children in with me, but now that most are 13+ I don’t need to do that as much.

I spend every weekend marking, preparing and programming because I want my students to have the best education I can give them.

It’s people like you Masquara with an uneducated opinion who give credence to ‘teaching bashing’ and one of the reasons why teachers leave the profession after 3 years.

Teachers who do other jobs might be shocked to discover that most of us take work home too. Unless you’re working in a low wage job with a punch card there’s much to be done.

Masquara said :

School teachers get three months holiday a year vs busdrivers four weeks. So how about an appropriate comparison, Pantsman? Personally I think $67,000 salary per year for a bus driver is about right. Most teachers are on considerably more than that (more like 80,000 + 8 weeks’ extra holidays), which makes them pretty darn well paid.

I think you will find teachers get considerably less than time off that that and most good teachers would be lucky to get four weeks leave in total and put in considerably more hours per day with coursework, marking and other such admin.

Darkfalz said :

Masquara said :

School teachers get three months holiday a year

There are people who still believe this utter nonsense?

How is it nonsense? How many weeks’ leave do you think schoolteachers have?

Masquara said :

School teachers get three months holiday a year vs busdrivers four weeks. So how about an appropriate comparison, Pantsman? Personally I think $67,000 salary per year for a bus driver is about right. Most teachers are on considerably more than that (more like 80,000 + 8 weeks’ extra holidays), which makes them pretty darn well paid.

I’ll be sure to cancel my second Sunday in a row supporting my students just to fit in with your absurd claims Masquara. Not to mention my programming will have to take place in school hours as will my marking, attending parent-teacher interviews and the like. Oh and my lunch times which are given up to support students with their enrichment or assisting with class work.

You must suffer terrible vertigo from looking down at teachers from your ivory tower.

For the OP, the highest a classroom teacher earns in the ACT atm is $84350. I believe the figure quoted also includes the SLCs (executive teachers) who teach 60% face to face and SLB (deputy) who may teach 20% face to face.

It’s more realistic to believe that the $91000 quote for ACTION also includes managers who drive etc.

Darkfalz said :

Masquara said :

School teachers get three months holiday a year

There are people who still believe this utter nonsense?

How many weeks leave do teachers get?

mcleodwealth said :

Australian envy politics at work again. Ever vigilant to ensure that no one gets more than the bare minimum slice of the pie. You can’t pay teachers enough in my opinion, they hold the future of our nation in their hands, or police officers who are often a mental health crisis frontline. Essential services personnel have my support. I have no problem with paying for them. Some other ‘programmes’ I’m not so enthusiastic to fund though.

We approach paying our front line workers the wrong way. We should pay them lots more, but expect very high standards of performance.

Masquara said :

School teachers get three months holiday a year

There are people who still believe this utter nonsense?

$91k when it doesn’t take into consideration most drivers have rostered overtime and that they roster many more drivers than there are buses on any given day..

91k isn’t really that much for Canberra and I wouldn’t take it to be a bloody bus driver and have to deal with certain routes / class of people taking the bus.

mcleodwealth said :

Australian envy politics at work again. Ever vigilant to ensure that no one gets more than the bare minimum slice of the pie. You can’t pay teachers enough in my opinion, they hold the future of our nation in their hands, or police officers who are often a mental health crisis frontline. Essential services personnel have my support. I have no problem with paying for them. Some other ‘programmes’ I’m not so enthusiastic to fund though.

+1,000,000

mcleodwealth2:27 pm 08 Sep 12

Australian envy politics at work again. Ever vigilant to ensure that no one gets more than the bare minimum slice of the pie. You can’t pay teachers enough in my opinion, they hold the future of our nation in their hands, or police officers who are often a mental health crisis frontline. Essential services personnel have my support. I have no problem with paying for them. Some other ‘programmes’ I’m not so enthusiastic to fund though.

ROFL at this entire, ludicrous story.

School teachers get three months holiday a year vs busdrivers four weeks. So how about an appropriate comparison, Pantsman? Personally I think $67,000 salary per year for a bus driver is about right. Most teachers are on considerably more than that (more like 80,000 + 8 weeks’ extra holidays), which makes them pretty darn well paid.

mcleodwealth10:08 am 08 Sep 12

Perhaps I am missing something here but I am not sure why workers providing essential services should be targeted. Firstly, this states only cost, not wages, as discussed, so discussion is moot without knowing actual wages. Even so, I’m not really sure it’s a problem what people are paid or what they cost without considering operational leverage – i.e. how much return do we the tax payer get from that investment? If the return is high, who cares what they get paid? It’s a win / win. If the return is low, perhaps there is a systemic or operational issue than a personnel issue. For example, we have all heard the debates about light rail – one interesting proposition being that driver / passenger density increases with light rail, thereby increasing operational leverage. Suggesting that you could increase wages of drivers by even 50% but if you increase passenger throughput per driver by 100% (trains can carry more people than buses not to mention other benefits) then everyone’s a winner – everyone takes a cut – including the tax payer.

I feel for those in essential services in Canberra when you consider the sky-rocketing cost of living in this city, and I would feel better knowing that those serving the city can actually afford to live in it.

I suggest this conversation is not very useful without knowing operational leverage, efficiency and so forth. And it also plays in to an unfortunate Australian cultural cringe that seems to focus on who’s getting what slice of the pie (politics of envy) rather than on how to just increase the pie so we all get a bigger slice – through efficiency, growth, so on. Or even managing a budget well enough so wages are not an issue.

If the system was running efficiently, then who cares what bus drivers cost or get paid, as long as it works for everyone. Why punish people for doing a good job.

knuckles said :

You do realise that these are total employment costs.
The actual salary for these professions is a lot less than what is listed here.

You’re right, but most on-costs are a fixed proportion, so the comparison between the professions holds true, even if the amounts seem higher than you’d expect. And the proximity of bus drivers with these other professions does seem to indicate a very effective union…

Wanon said :

Everyone else has covered it pretty much. Public servants cost almost as much as their salary to keep them employed after you factor in benefits, leave and HR costs.

The fully trained up bus drivers get a wage of $62k a year. Source: https://www.action.act.gov.au/ACTION%20applicants%20info%20FA.pdf

“On completion of the training and assessment bus drivers will be on a pay rate of $31.72 per hour ($62,880 per anum, pro-rata).”

I’m not in the public service, but the figure I’ve always used in costing an employee is around 2.1 times salary. Once you add up sick leave, rec leave, superannuation, insurance, office space, office supplies, electricity, computers, air-conditioning, toilet paper and every other damned thing, you’ll find it costs a helluva lot more than just salary to put someone on the payroll.

knuckles said :

You do realise that these are total employment costs..

You’d like to think the OP realised that, given it’s clearly stated in “Notes (a) and (b)” at the bottom of the text that was copied across.

knuckles said :

You do realise that these are total employment costs.
The actual salary for these professions is a lot less than what is listed here.

Ahhh but you cant let the truth get in the way of a “good” story………

Everyone else has covered it pretty much. Public servants cost almost as much as their salary to keep them employed after you factor in benefits, leave and HR costs.

The fully trained up bus drivers get a wage of $62k a year. Source: https://www.action.act.gov.au/ACTION%20applicants%20info%20FA.pdf

“On completion of the training and assessment bus drivers will be on a pay rate of $31.72 per hour ($62,880 per anum, pro-rata).”

You do realise that these are total employment costs.
The actual salary for these professions is a lot less than what is listed here.

Actually that 91k you are talking about appears to be the amount it costs to employ a bus driver, not how much they actually get paid. If you move down the document to Attachment A you will see the figures worked out for the average person. It has a total costing of around 93k for a person with a salary of 67k. There are also additional costings of workers compensation etc. for that employee which then indicates that the bus drivers get less than 67k. 67k is not that high a salary…

The title says “plus over time” but the notes say “includes over time”.

Doesn’t really tell us much though. A pretty big chunk of that $91k would go in the extras we don’t normally think of when stating our income. On the other hand I would think there would be some bus drivers who only work part time hours, and this is an average, someone is making out.

One day when I am really bored I’ll read ACTIONs annual report (assuming they have one).

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