Canberra’s had enough of the slow train to Sydney

Federal Labour (Andrew Leigh) had their chance in government to build high speed rail Sydney-Canberra they just chose not to just like existing government (Federal and NSW) is not interested. A high speed rail link is a good idea and for many reasons including housing access/affordability and job opportunities for Sydney/Canberra and surrounds so why doesn’t he commit to the next Federal Labour government doing it. The $6B+++ for Badgery’s Creek would have been better spent on high speed rail (rather than dooming even more people to aircraft noise and potential of catastrophic disaster). I previously lived under the Sydney flight path and its not something I would do again; you can smell the av gas in the air especially on cloudy, drizzly days).

dungfungus said :

In reference to your title to this thread “Canberra’s had enough of the slow train to Sydney”, the inference is that a lot of Canberran’s use the service and this isn’t really the case.

In fact, the service is patronised mainly by people with limited financial resources and a high number of these people travel on senior/pensioner concessions. Without these concessions this demographic would have difficulty in travelling at all from Canberra, anywhere.

The push for a faster service appears to be coming from a lot of people who don’t even use the service but would like to think a faster train service would be a better way to travel when there are deadlines to meet. It is unlikely this concept will be operated as public transport so if it ever happens I doubt whether any concessions to a substantially higher fare structure will apply. Do the airlines give pensioner concessions? No.

The outcome would be a diminution of the existing taxpayer-subsidised services which I wouldn’t support.

This is just one anecdote, but my partner and I ride the train whenever we travel to Sydney. We do own a car but the thing about driving is that you can’t do anything else while you are driving. The train isn’t quick but you can spend those four hours reading, sleeping, working on a laptop, or even have a meal and a glass of wine. Unlike flying, there are no security queues, and you get delivered to Sydney’s CBD instead of having to ride the extortionately-priced train from the Sydney airport. (and, until recently, the expensive airport shuttle here in Canberra) Apart from the minor inconvenience of having to get to Kingston, it’s a mode of travel that’s both relaxed and productive.

Love the concept but it will never take off. The trucking industry and airlines do not want any rail upgrades that might hamper their profits. The Federal government could have upgraded the existing rail when they did the major road upgrade but ignored it due to the transport lobby.
I would love to see the money the federal government will spend of the new Sydney airport put into the new high speed rail system and upgrade Canberra or Goulburn. That would generate many more jobs for Goulburn, reduce Sydney house prices and remove congestion from Sydney.
This will not happen as those in power want to keep their mates in money so our children will be shafted once again.

It would be great to be able to have a two hour train journey rather than the current 4, however, the problem is that spanning the Molonglo gorge would cost too much.

Sending a train beside the Federal Hwy is one answer, however, you’ve still got the hills at the Southern end of Lake George to climb.

I think we’re stuck with what we have.

ChrisinTurner said :

Andrew has people to research thought bubbles and explain to him that it has been tried before. No train can beat the laws of physics. A proper high speed train between Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne would obviate the need for Badgerys Creek airport.

I agree it does need to be a proper high speed train not just a tilt train.

Been tried before? You mean the trial a number of years ago? That was never a serious trail just lip service.

And beating laws of physics sure cannot do that but tilt trains do trick people’s perception of the effects of the laws of physics and a tilt train if the only thing on the line between Canberra and Sydney could get close to 2 hours with some minor track up grades.

In fact traffic on the line is the main killer as you can only go as fast as the path you are given allows. If there is slower traffic in front their schedule needs to be perfectly matched to allow overtaking without too much holding for the slower train. One reason why I believe any high speed train really needs to be dedicated high speed line.

And a good case in point in France the line to Bordeaux was until recently dedicated high speed for about 250km and then classic but still high speed (200km/h) by our standards for another 300km or so. They have just opened or about to open an extension of the dedicated line which will drop 50-60 minutes off the trip to Paris mostly by not having slower trains to contend with.

Andrew has people to research thought bubbles and explain to him that it has been tried before. No train can beat the laws of physics. A proper high speed train between Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne would obviate the need for Badgerys Creek airport.

dungfungus said :

tim_c said :

Mark_Dando said :

As a regular traveller between Canberra and Sydney I’d love this to happen but am sceptical about the claim that this train could do the trip within 2.5 hours without any significant upgrading of the track.

The train would need to maintain an average speed of around 130 kph assuming just two or three stops. Has the Talgo company really investigated the feasibility of this over, for example, the track between Bungendore and Queanbeyan? In the current train, this section feels like riding on a badly maintained attraction at a decrepit theme park.

I suspect a more feasible solution would be for the various governments involved to commit up to $1 billion (the cost of the light rail stage 1) to build a new high speed line between say Canberra airport and main Sydney-Melbourne line, a distance of only about 80 km, and upgrade the main line to Sydney as necessary. The latter component would also have a pay off in delivering better Syd-Mel freight services.

A tilt-train was trialled between Canberra and Sydney a few years ago. It could only use its ’tilt’ function for a small fraction of the journey though so as not to collide with poles, walls and other structures that were too close to the track for a leaning train.

Some photos and comments here: http://www.trainman.id.au/photos/nsw/tilt/

The main problem it had was the curves on the Canberra Bungendore section of the line were too “tight” for the technology. Apparently this caused the front section of the train to tilt one way and the rear section the other way while in the curve which was very disconcerting for passengers and mobile crew.

It is reported that it took out a few bricks at one end of the Queanbeyan platform.

There is a tilt train service in Queensland (The Sunlander). It rarely reaches it’s top speed capability.

The Sunlander was replaced by the tilt train which is named Spirit of Queensland.

But yeah rare to reach top speed but that is not nescisarrily the point anyway. The point is being able to go faster around corners in a way to not upset passengers to hopefully give a higher overall average speed.

In reference to your title to this thread “Canberra’s had enough of the slow train to Sydney”, the inference is that a lot of Canberran’s use the service and this isn’t really the case.

In fact, the service is patronised mainly by people with limited financial resources and a high number of these people travel on senior/pensioner concessions. Without these concessions this demographic would have difficulty in travelling at all from Canberra, anywhere.

The push for a faster service appears to be coming from a lot of people who don’t even use the service but would like to think a faster train service would be a better way to travel when there are deadlines to meet. It is unlikely this concept will be operated as public transport so if it ever happens I doubt whether any concessions to a substantially higher fare structure will apply. Do the airlines give pensioner concessions? No.

The outcome would be a diminution of the existing taxpayer-subsidised services which I wouldn’t support.

tim_c said :

Mark_Dando said :

As a regular traveller between Canberra and Sydney I’d love this to happen but am sceptical about the claim that this train could do the trip within 2.5 hours without any significant upgrading of the track.

The train would need to maintain an average speed of around 130 kph assuming just two or three stops. Has the Talgo company really investigated the feasibility of this over, for example, the track between Bungendore and Queanbeyan? In the current train, this section feels like riding on a badly maintained attraction at a decrepit theme park.

I suspect a more feasible solution would be for the various governments involved to commit up to $1 billion (the cost of the light rail stage 1) to build a new high speed line between say Canberra airport and main Sydney-Melbourne line, a distance of only about 80 km, and upgrade the main line to Sydney as necessary. The latter component would also have a pay off in delivering better Syd-Mel freight services.

A tilt-train was trialled between Canberra and Sydney a few years ago. It could only use its ’tilt’ function for a small fraction of the journey though so as not to collide with poles, walls and other structures that were too close to the track for a leaning train.

Some photos and comments here: http://www.trainman.id.au/photos/nsw/tilt/

The main problem it had was the curves on the Canberra Bungendore section of the line were too “tight” for the technology. Apparently this caused the front section of the train to tilt one way and the rear section the other way while in the curve which was very disconcerting for passengers and mobile crew.

It is reported that it took out a few bricks at one end of the Queanbeyan platform.

There is a tilt train service in Queensland (The Sunlander). It rarely reaches it’s top speed capability.

Video conferencing will kill the expense and inconvenience of travelling to meetings pretty soon.