Cardboard numbers plates and a tasing

p1 said :

Tooks said :

Lots of police work alone. Given what you know now, does that change your opinion on the taser use?

I’ve often found it interesting that police can and do frequently work alone, totally at odds with the sort of industrial safety rules that control any other even mildly dangerous jobs.

But I guess it is a case of cost vrs benefit to the community vrs safety of the employee…

I think in Qld (and possibly other states) they don’t allow one man patrols. Not here though.

Tooks said :

Lots of police work alone. Given what you know now, does that change your opinion on the taser use?

I’ve often found it interesting that police can and do frequently work alone, totally at odds with the sort of industrial safety rules that control any other even mildly dangerous jobs.

But I guess it is a case of cost vrs benefit to the community vrs safety of the employee…

Tooks said :

Source/link? Not saying you’re wrong, but I’ve asked the same of other people who’ve made the same claim, and they couldn’t source it.

Seems to be at least a handful of cases out there.

However, quickly scanning some abstracts, it seems in a lot of the cases quoted an autopsy determined that the person had an underlying/pre-existing condition. Seems pretty obvious to me, that if you have severe asthma or a heart condition, don’t go getting your self OC sprayed.

No I don’t really think they chased him just to taser. I do think the high speed chase was inadvisable and was probably the most dangerous part of the whole episode.

Can’t argue with your point that the pursuit was the most dangerous part – that’s a no brainer. The alternative is any drink driver (or any other offender) would simply just fail to stop to avoid apprehension. Don’t want a ticket for speeding? Keep driving. Don’t want to stop for an RBT, keep driving.

Every one of these non-lethal weapons has been sold to the public as a replacement for shooting.

Source? Sorry, but that’s bullshit.

If these are myths, then the police have made zero effort to prevent them being perpetuated before the tasers were brought in.

Why should they? If people want to know the facts, they can read for themselves.

I won’t loose any sleep over this guy’s taserirng, however, as someone else said – tasers have been abused in other places (whether the use was legal or not).

It’s ‘lose’, not ‘loose’ (sorry, it’s a pet hate). How many reports of misuse have you seen in the ACT though (in the last 7 years)? If it is being misused, then it’s not legal, is it?

Physical restraint was only one option, depending on you physique I might easily restrain you – or have no chance if you’re much larger/stronger than me. Not knowing the officer or the perp I only offered it as another option the police have.

Yeah, an extremely poor option. You couldn’t easily restrain me, no matter what my physique is. If you think you’ll always beat a smaller opponent, then I can only assume you have no experience in fighting. I outweigh Kostya Tzu by 30 or 40kg – you think I’d have any chance against him? I don’t. Any cop who goes hands on in a one-on-one situation, not knowing whether the offender is armed or not, is taking a huge gamble. Get in a good scrape with an offender who has Hep C (or another nasty disease) and you might find yourself with a nervous wait while your blood test results come through.

I’ve only since heard the officer was alone, which seems strange to me, that should be reviewed – police should not work alone, ever. Working alone is unsafe for the police.

Lots of police work alone. Given what you know now, does that change your opinion on the taser use?

Tooks having a gun is always going to draw unwanted attention. Trained in Victoria in the 1990’s did we. Shoot first and lose the reports later. To expect every deranged motorist to be armed with a hand gun or want your gun seems a bit far fetched. Unless its the 90s in VIC of course.

The AFP should just release the video footage of the incident, then we could see the threat posed by the individual. Wait…… they cant because our taser are not fitted with cameras. Anything can happen when the cameras not rolling.

shadow boxer said :

There’s lots wrong with this story.

Why did we have a high speed pursuit from Kambah to Monash reaching speeds of 140kmh for 8 minutes putting every road user in mortal danger and why was it necessary for a police Sergeant to Taser an unarmed single offender in order to make an arrest.

If this was routine traffic stop there appears no justification for putting the general public in this sort of danger.

Your first point is just part of the never-ending debate into police pursuits, which I won’t get into here. Not every road user was on the road at the time (I know I wasn’t), so not every road user was put in mortal danger.

On your second point, in a one-on-one situation, see if you can take down an offender without either one of you getting hurt. You’d want to be pretty confident in your own abilities and pretty confident he didn’t have a knife (or worse) tucked into the back of his pants when you get in a wrestle. If he gets your gun, it’s game over.

Tooks said :

You really believe they pursued him so they could use a taser? Hopefully not.

1) Tasers were not brought in to replace deadly force
2) The officer doesn’t need to be in fear for his life to use it. Where did that myth come from?
3) Capsicum spray would be a bad option in that case. A baton would cause injury to the offender.

Physical restraint? I’ll tell you what, I’ll charge at you one on one and see if you can restrain me without getting hurt.
4) Capsicum spray was never supposed to replace lethal force. That’s ridiculous.

Not having a go at you, but let’s not perpetuate some of the myths out there. Bottom line is, the offender suffered five seconds of pain and neither he, nor any police, were injured. Is that not a good outcome?

No I don’t really think they chased him just to taser. I do think the high speed chase was inadvisable and was probably the most dangerous part of the whole episode.
Every one of these non-lethal weapons has been sold to the public as a replacement for shooting. Any shooting that occurs when a new weapon is being considered is posed as a ‘wouldn’t it have been better to taser them than kill them’ scenario. Sure I’m glad the police didn’t shoot the jerk, that would have been way out of proportion.
If these are myths, then the police have made zero effort to prevent them being perpetuated before the tasers were brought in.
I won’t loose any sleep over this guy’s taserirng, however, as someone else said – tasers have been abused in other places (whether the use was legal or not).
Physical restraint was only one option, depending on you physique I might easily restrain you – or have no chance if you’re much larger/stronger than me. Not knowing the officer or the perp I only offered it as another option the police have.
I’ve only since heard the officer was alone, which seems strange to me, that should be reviewed – police should not work alone, ever. Working alone is unsafe for the police.

Regarding capsicum and battons, both can inflict severe injury. In fact people have died from being sprayed by OC.

Source/link? Not saying you’re wrong, but I’ve asked the same of other people who’ve made the same claim, and they couldn’t source it.

OC is also not washed away easily with water and requires a special eye wash. Even then, the effects can reportedly be felt for anything from hours to many days afterwards.

It does not require a special eye wash – that’s simply untrue.

There’s lots wrong with this story.

Why did we have a high speed pursuit from Kambah to Monash reaching speeds of 140kmh for 8 minutes putting every road user in mortal danger and why was it necessary for a police Sergeant to Taser an unarmed single offender in order to make an arrest.

If this was routine traffic stop there appears no justification for putting the general public in this sort of danger.

Henry82 said :

While a taser is an excellent disincentive to re-offend (particularly when i justice system is so good at giving warnings/minimal punishment for repeat offenders) it is open to misuse. Spend a few minutes on youtube and watch american police taser people 5 or 6 times in a row for non-compliance. What really annoys me is when they’re tased again because of involuntary actions caused by the initial taser. Really, a taser IS self defence and imo should only be used when the attacker is wearing googles (therefore resistant to OC). Far too many negatives that outweigh the positives imo, particularly when OC is already standard issue.

I’ve posted it on this forum a few times, but i watched a video of a police trainer who had been shot and tasered (on separate occasions), he said he would choose the bullet every time.

I know this is boring and annoying for a lot of you out there, but for mine, it really comes down to not getting yourself into a situation where you are a danger to yourself or (more importantly) someone else.
Our society is pretty damn good, and there a few basic rules (laws) that help to keep it that way. I don’t find them that ardous to follow overall.
If you want to live in an out-of-control way, tnen move to a cult on a farm or something. Otherwise, simply treat people that way you’d like to be treated yourself and you’ll be very unlikely to be tasered, clubbed, pepper sprayed or shot. That also means you’re even more unlikely to be on the receiving end of the rare taser misuse too. I can understand that OK. Simple tip: If a cop has gone out of his way to ‘engage’ you, and is pointing a taser at you, you’re probably being a dick to someone at around that time, in a way that is against a law….
BTW, I also understand that it’s good for people to argue both sides of issues like this – it helps make sure the best balance is maintained… So write to your local minister, taser haters! 🙂

i doubt a copper is going to “ramp” up a situation just to use a taser…….however from personal experience i can tell you that some cops do tell lies, yes i know…it surprised me too….so who knows what actually happened in this instance?

LSWCHP said :

I’ve thought long and hard about this taser business, and the possibility of the inappropriate use of tasers to enforce compliance. Really, this seems like a good outcome to me. The alternative would’ve been an entirely justifiable shooting. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’d also rather be tased than shot, in the unlikely event that the choice was necessary.

And honestly, after reading this, I’d like to see a few more of these arsehats get a good tickling. That bloke could have killed someone when he lost control of his vehicle. He could have killed me, or you, or your Mum and Dad.

It’ll be interesting to see how the weekend biffo crowd in civic behave when faced with a taser in future.

I’m sure they’ll be shocked to see a taser

LSWCHP said :

I’ve thought long and hard about this taser business, and the possibility of the inappropriate use of tasers to enforce compliance. Really, this seems like a good outcome to me. The alternative would’ve been an entirely justifiable shooting. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’d also rather be tased than shot, in the unlikely event that the choice was necessary.

While a taser is an excellent disincentive to re-offend (particularly when i justice system is so good at giving warnings/minimal punishment for repeat offenders) it is open to misuse. Spend a few minutes on youtube and watch american police taser people 5 or 6 times in a row for non-compliance. What really annoys me is when they’re tased again because of involuntary actions caused by the initial taser. Really, a taser IS self defence and imo should only be used when the attacker is wearing googles (therefore resistant to OC). Far too many negatives that outweigh the positives imo, particularly when OC is already standard issue.

I’ve posted it on this forum a few times, but i watched a video of a police trainer who had been shot and tasered (on separate occasions), he said he would choose the bullet every time.

I’ve thought long and hard about this taser business, and the possibility of the inappropriate use of tasers to enforce compliance. Really, this seems like a good outcome to me. The alternative would’ve been an entirely justifiable shooting. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’d also rather be tased than shot, in the unlikely event that the choice was necessary.

And honestly, after reading this, I’d like to see a few more of these arsehats get a good tickling. That bloke could have killed someone when he lost control of his vehicle. He could have killed me, or you, or your Mum and Dad.

It’ll be interesting to see how the weekend biffo crowd in civic behave when faced with a taser in future.

CharlieB said :

Zero sympathy for the perp.
But, going on an 8 minute spin through town at 140km/h to get the new taser off probably isn’t helping public safety – those cardboard number plates aren’t exactly deadly.
Problem with every new non-lethal weapon brought in, supposedly to replace deadly force, is they just get used far more often than lethal force was ever required. Barring evidence to the contrary, I doubt the officer was really in fear for their life. Could have used baton or capsicum spray or physical restraint instead – even capsicum spray was supposed to replace lethal force.

I don’t think they engaged in a chase just to use the taser, but your comment does touch on an important issue… that sometimes Police do ramp up the threat they see themselves dealing with as the pursuit continues. It gains its own momentum where the longer and more desperate the driver seems to get away, the more dangerous or serious the activity the police believe they were involved in.
There’s going to be two separate reviews of the activity here so the actions will be looked at.

Regarding the choice to pursuit based on number plates made of cardboard, which are a minor issue, it’s based on the fact that often, a minor stop can catch someone for a major offence. A broken light on a car isn’t serious, until you pull them over and find they have drugs in the car for example or the driver has a warrant.

Regarding capsicum and battons, both can inflict severe injury. In fact people have died from being sprayed by OC. OC is also not washed away easily with water and requires a special eye wash. Even then, the effects can reportedly be felt for anything from hours to many days afterwards.

CharlieB said :

Zero sympathy for the perp.
But, going on an 8 minute spin through town at 140km/h to get the new taser off probably isn’t helping public safety – those cardboard number plates aren’t exactly deadly.
Problem with every new non-lethal weapon brought in, supposedly to replace deadly force, is they just get used far more often than lethal force was ever required. Barring evidence to the contrary, I doubt the officer was really in fear for their life. Could have used baton or capsicum spray or physical restraint instead – even capsicum spray was supposed to replace lethal force.

You really believe they pursued him so they could use a taser? Hopefully not.

1) Tasers were not brought in to replace deadly force
2) The officer doesn’t need to be in fear for his life to use it. Where did that myth come from?
3) Capsicum spray would be a bad option in that case. A baton would cause injury to the offender. Physical restraint? I’ll tell you what, I’ll charge at you one on one and see if you can restrain me without getting hurt.
4) Capsicum spray was never supposed to replace lethal force. That’s ridiculous.

Not having a go at you, but let’s not perpetuate some of the myths out there. Bottom line is, the offender suffered five seconds of pain and neither he, nor any police, were injured. Is that not a good outcome?

Hahahahaha!!
The running at the cops bit sounds a bit odd, but if ever anyone deserved a zap, it was this douche! Good to see it was all over with before he ran into another car or pedestrian.

Not just next generation.

F18 Growlers over afghanistan are already recognising circuit boards and focussing down to melt the filaments.

Needs twin turbojets to power that kind of EW weapon (masquerading as a radar) though.

EvanJames said :

Hmmm. This taser thing has got me thinking… what the cops now need is a taser that works on cars. They could EMP errant cars, do away with dangerous car chases AND have themselves a great deal of fun into the bargain.

The next generation of radar arrays on some fighter jets and naval vessels will have such a feature. The catch is you do need to have shielding on your own electrics to avoid scoring an own goal. A bit much to do on AFP’s cars just catch hoodies in a stolen datsun.

That said, the tracing tag gun that has been demoed shows promise overseas, basically fires a tag from the front of the police vehicle which attaches to the offender’s vehicle. Then it’s just a matter of dropping back and following the signal.

Why do the police have to answer to a “committee review” or some other rigorous inquisition each time they so much as use a Taser (let alone a gun) on a criminal when it is plainly obvious this criminal was evading the law and leading a high-speed pursuit??? No wonder policework is so difficult while the criminals (especially the juvenile rodents) have little to fear!!

i saw that car last weekend…. wondered how it got away with having cardboard plates… i guess it didnt after all.

Zero sympathy for the perp.
But, going on an 8 minute spin through town at 140km/h to get the new taser off probably isn’t helping public safety – those cardboard number plates aren’t exactly deadly.
Problem with every new non-lethal weapon brought in, supposedly to replace deadly force, is they just get used far more often than lethal force was ever required. Barring evidence to the contrary, I doubt the officer was really in fear for their life. Could have used baton or capsicum spray or physical restraint instead – even capsicum spray was supposed to replace lethal force.

Henry82 said :

Then, knowing the intelligence of many of these thieves, they’ll eventually run over a set.

Actually, knowing the persistence of these thieves, they would probably steal the spikes and sell them as scrap.

There are plenty of quite advanced products designed to immobilise cars remotely in case of theft. If the government made them mandatory to be fitted to a car, then gave the police the master codes….

But someone would just start whinging about civil liberties.

I bet the servo on the corner there would like the contact details matching his cardboard number plates.

Microwaves instead of EMP:
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/car-taser

EvanJames said :

. They could EMP errant cars,.

I dont believe an EMP is portable yet.

tbh a more plausible method would be to install spike strips on major highways around Canberra that can be raised and lowered out of the ground extremely quickly. Then, knowing the intelligence of many of these thieves, they’ll eventually run over a set.

YetAnotherBlowIn said :

I always thought the black-on-white/white-on-black non-embossed number plates looked like someone had knocked them up on their home printer using Garamond font…..

Yes those plastic number plates look really cheap and nasty. Why they’re being marketed as prestige plates – and why people are buying them and putting them on their cars – is a total mystery.

EvanJames said :

Hmmm. This taser thing has got me thinking… what the cops now need is a taser that works on cars. They could EMP errant cars, do away with dangerous car chases AND have themselves a great deal of fun into the bargain.

Someones watched The Fast and The Furious, I see.

qbngeek said :

EvanJames said :

Hmmm. This taser thing has got me thinking… what the cops now need is a taser that works on cars. They could EMP errant cars, do away with dangerous car chases AND have themselves a great deal of fun into the bargain.

There are some issues with that idea. How do you propose that the EM pulse is contained so that it doesn’t kill everything in the area, including all the electronics in the police vehicle? What about the liability issues involved in ‘killing’ a car because after an EM pulse the ECU would be worse than useless and the car is a write off. I can already see the ACT comp solicitors suing the police for the damage.

What about the mobile phones/personal electronics of passers-by, and all the personal electronics of the offenders (although I think they can get stuffed), that would be destroyed? Who is liable for them? What if it was set off near a transformer? What effects might that have not reared their heads before? Will it affect phone/adsl boxes on the street or underground phone/adsl cabling?

I love the idea (I love EM stuff in general), but the implementation of such a device whould case so many issues. Just wait until one is set of in a suburb and kills a whole street of computers, phones, TVs and other electronic devices. Then the ACT government will be up for a small fortune. My Gaming rig alone is brand spanking new and cost $8000…

Apparently the Californian Police Department have already started developing exactly what you have suggested.

EvanJames said :

I’m having a mental image of the cops as Reavers, their cars all shaped like sharks and things with dead bodies strapped to the fronts, stalking the streets… WHAP! Gotcha.

Thinking back to how Reavers were ‘created’….. the image works on so many levels…

EvanJames said :

reckon if the car taser worked like a person taser, the contraption would shoot out little prongs or sticky cups, on strings, so the taser made contact with the errant car, and delivered the EMP that way, and so everything else would be safe (ish).

oooh, a car harpoon with an electric surprise!

p1 said :

Unless they are driving an old diesel.

In which case they wouldn’t really be involved in what you could call a ‘car chase’.

@ QbnGeek: I reckon if the car taser worked like a person taser, the contraption would shoot out little prongs or sticky cups, on strings, so the taser made contact with the errant car, and delivered the EMP that way, and so everything else would be safe (ish).

Then the Reavers um I mean COPS would eat their livers. I mean issue them a ticket.

I’m having a mental image of the cops as Reavers, their cars all shaped like sharks and things with dead bodies strapped to the fronts, stalking the streets… WHAP! Gotcha.

EvanJames said :

Hmmm. This taser thing has got me thinking… what the cops now need is a taser that works on cars. They could EMP errant cars, do away with dangerous car chases AND have themselves a great deal of fun into the bargain.

Unless they are driving an old diesel.

EvanJames said :

Hmmm. This taser thing has got me thinking… what the cops now need is a taser that works on cars. They could EMP errant cars, do away with dangerous car chases AND have themselves a great deal of fun into the bargain.

There are some issues with that idea. How do you propose that the EM pulse is contained so that it doesn’t kill everything in the area, including all the electronics in the police vehicle? What about the liability issues involved in ‘killing’ a car because after an EM pulse the ECU would be worse than useless and the car is a write off. I can already see the ACT comp solicitors suing the police for the damage.

What about the mobile phones/personal electronics of passers-by, and all the personal electronics of the offenders (although I think they can get stuffed), that would be destroyed? Who is liable for them? What if it was set off near a transformer? What effects might that have not reared their heads before? Will it affect phone/adsl boxes on the street or underground phone/adsl cabling?

I love the idea (I love EM stuff in general), but the implementation of such a device whould case so many issues. Just wait until one is set of in a suburb and kills a whole street of computers, phones, TVs and other electronic devices. Then the ACT government will be up for a small fortune. My Gaming rig alone is brand spanking new and cost $8000…

EvanJames said :

Hmmm. This taser thing has got me thinking… what the cops now need is a taser that works on cars. They could EMP errant cars, do away with dangerous car chases AND have themselves a great deal of fun into the bargain.

Gold!

Deserved to be tased bro.

p1 said :

Yup, the outcome would have been a little worse for the driver if the sergeant had grabbed the other pistol shaped device on his belt and “discharged” it.

Outcome would have been worse for both if the sergeant had used the baton instead.

Hmmm. This taser thing has got me thinking… what the cops now need is a taser that works on cars. They could EMP errant cars, do away with dangerous car chases AND have themselves a great deal of fun into the bargain.

Thumper said :

Upon exiting the vehicle the offender rushed towards the sergeant who subsequently drew and discharged his Taser

Lucky for him it was only a taser.

Yup, the outcome would have been a little worse for the driver if the sergeant had grabbed the other pistol shaped device on his belt and “discharged” it.

Upon exiting the vehicle the offender rushed towards the sergeant who subsequently drew and discharged his Taser

Lucky for him it was only a taser.

I always thought the black-on-white/white-on-black non-embossed number plates looked like someone had knocked them up on their home printer using Garamond font…..