6 August 2008

Data centre to go to EIS

| johnboy
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You’d think a data centre would be the sort of thing any sane town would want.

Nice clean jobs, encourages better data connections, sits on the edge of town behind barbed wire minding its own business.

But this is Canberra, where nothing is ever so simple.

To that end Andrew Barr has announced that the data centre proposal is going to be asked to complete an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS).

This, happily, punts the issue out past the election.

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Heavy it is. For example, Vic classifies electrical generation as heavy industrial on the attached doc, which is spruiking a Heavy Industry Park in the Latrobe Valley:

http://www.latrobe.vic.gov.au/WebFiles/Business%20Services/dossier%20heavyind.pdf

More disturbingly, this doc goes on to say that power station clustering is commonplace. If we get one, we are sure to get more.

That said (and I’ve said it before) no one is protesting against a data storage warehouse, just the associated power generation aspect – though there is also the legitimate expectation that buffer zones should remain as broadacre for suburbs so close to the tip. A more more suitable place for this proposed development could be found if they tried.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I was also thinking about the $$ that flow outside the ACT when hosting charges are paid, if the data centre isn’t owned by an ACT entity. This probably outweighs the job issue, too.

Surely we can divorce the data centre from the power source? I suspect, though, that Canberra needs to have a think about local power generation anyway, and that would be a good opportunity to explore larger scale environmentally friendly options.

the datacentre will be owned, in part, by actew agl. so it is a roundabout way of saying that it is the ACT government’s….

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy11:21 am 12 Aug 08

I was also thinking about the $$ that flow outside the ACT when hosting charges are paid, if the data centre isn’t owned by an ACT entity. This probably outweighs the job issue, too.

Surely we can divorce the data centre from the power source? I suspect, though, that Canberra needs to have a think about local power generation anyway, and that would be a good opportunity to explore larger scale environmentally friendly options.

Lagrange, 45MW is proposed, not 15MW! There are three (3) turbines proposed. See the wealth of info here

http://www.canberrapowerstation.info/index.html

VY this site also tracks the, erm, ‘flexible’ (ie made up) estimates of jobs supposedly created if the proposal goes ahead

the disposal of big battery packs – based on the type of batteries, there should be some way to recycle them for further use. Li Ion batteries can be recycled, but it is an expensive process.

the std batteries are more likely to be recycled, I remember apollo batteries used to strip and clean the guts of old batteries, clean the metal up and re-fill and resell them, many years ago.

most likely that this still can be done.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:25 am 12 Aug 08

…still waiting…

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:41 am 07 Aug 08

Cletus – nice sweeping ideals, but what’s your actual solution to keeping Canberrans in jobs while energy sources you don’t like are the only viable ones? Read Lagrange’s post as a starting point. Greenies love the ideas of totally renewable energy (so do I, actually), but we have to consider the reality of how effective these technologies are in the real world, and what their total environmental impact is (including the manufacturing and disposal of big battery packs).

Far out miz 18 MW of gas turbines is hardly heavy industry.

Is heavy industry actually not permitted in Canberra? I couldn’t find anything about this, but suspect it has more to do with lack of demand then anything else. In the past why would you have located heavy industry in Canberra? There was no demand for it or particularly useful resources nearby…

If you want to use solar and wind you also have to include a large amount of batteries, the power source is there to act as a UPS independant of the grid in times of faults. The combined cost of solar panels and batteries would be huge, probably more then enough to kill the project. A nice solar thermal plant with effective thermal storage is a possibility though you would need additional storage again and I bet residents would protest about living near one of those anyway.

Also Cletus here’s a newsflash for you: gas is absolutely essential for our power system especially if you want to start using renewables! Its fast response time is necessary to balance the more stochastic sources of energy (at the moment wind). We are hopefully moving to an electricity system that uses more renewable energy, but to complain about using dirty gas is just silly. Supply must meet demand at all times and the snowy isn’t exactly full of water at the moment. As demand is continuing to grow in the national electricity system (and demand management hasn’t shown much success yet) why not build a ‘cleaner’ generator in Canberra (and yes they should definitely do an EIS anyway)?

It sure would be nice to have some income earners outside of the federal government in Canberra…

I’m sorry, “being nice to the environment when it is convenient”, “China building power plants as fast as they can”.

A couple of newsflashes for you.

It is not ever going to get any more convenient if we keep putting it off for the sake of the economy. It is actually turning into a bigger problem. “When it is convenient” actually means “I don’t have the spine to take responsibility for the problems I helped create, so I’ll let your children’s children worry about it”.

Secondly, finger pointing is not going to get anyone anywhere. Why would it be OK to shit in your own bed just because your neighbours do it?

Actually we should be taking into account the externalities involved in Chinese (among other) manufacturing due to their lax attitude to the environment and human rights. Of course, that’s “inconvenient” too.

The power house operated from 1915 to 1927. Fair point, perhaps the phrase ‘historically speaking’ is misleading, however:

1. maybe there were no other feasible power options then, and also it is possible it was acceptable then whereas it isn’t today (plus people were less empowered – eg, women) and

2. you don’t see heavy industry in the current industrial zones like Fyshwick as it is/was not permitted. Why should it be permitted now – and adjacent to houses?

Info on power house here http://www.aussieheritage.com.au/listings/act/Kingston/KingstonPowerHouse/2231

Aside from that coal fired power station they built at Kingston Miz?

They should do an EIS for the Williamsdale site too – in NSW, it is par for the course with any development like this. And peterh, the data centre was not the prob, it was the turbines and generators. This is not a clean green development, it is heavy industrial. Sorry, but where in Canberra is suitable for heavy industrial? I understood (historically speaking) that Canberra was not to get this level of industry, ever.

Over there, all of the low end jobs it seems are staffed by _families_ of Maories. Low paid jobs that the whities don’t touch? So what do they do?

In what particular way?

We should emulate New Zealand

60 workers? When it’s thousands all at once you’re getting close to the mid 80s experience.

Remember when grown adults queued around the corner for a chance of getting a job at Macdonalds?

Seriously get a grip, this economy is still going fine.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy4:57 pm 06 Aug 08

Saw it on the news. Hope they can find other work. Although some of them were over 50 and had litle other work experince, I suspect many will still find employment, given the skills and labour shortages around. Such shortages are the reason I don’t think it will be that bad this time around.

don’s smallgoods laid of 60 workers, shut 2 factories. for the latest on what is going on, have a look at http://www.smartcompany.com.au

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy4:37 pm 06 Aug 08

Yep, sharemarket has been a bit of a bloodbath lately.

(which is why I have just bought a big package of shares)

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Oh ok, makes more sense now. Retail has taken a bit hit recently, but it’s hard to see the same levels of unemployment and hardship that happened back then occurring in the short term in Australia.

we have seen big companies shed share prices, very glad i wasn’t investing in Optima or Commander, they both have taken a hammering – commander in particular, $2 per share to $0.05 a share.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy4:05 pm 06 Aug 08

Oh ok, makes more sense now. Retail has taken a bit hit recently, but it’s hard to see the same levels of unemployment and hardship that happened back then occurring in the short term in Australia.

Not like the downturn happening now.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy4:00 pm 06 Aug 08

Cletus – it’s about balance. Environmental concerns ARE important, but we need to be realistic about what is effective. When countries like China are building coal fired powerstations as quickly as they can, and our athletes in Beijing can barely see their own hands for pollution, it sort of puts some perspective on how to power a data centre in Australia. I’m all for using green sources where convenient, but there’s not much point making an employer non-viable by pushing very onerous requirements that in the scheme of things make little or no difference.

Don’t misunderstand me: just because someone else is polluting doesn’t make it right for us. I’m just saying we need to be pragmatic about our solutions.

And let’s leave the name calling out. I am NOT a baby boomer!

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

one thing i noticed was that retail still was on an increase, and as i was renting, there wasn’t much of a squeeze on me.

Not sure I know what you mean here…

I was working in retail, people were still buying computers and software, and we really didn’t see a downturn at all.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy3:43 pm 06 Aug 08

one thing i noticed was that retail still was on an increase, and as i was renting, there wasn’t much of a squeeze on me.

Not sure I know what you mean here…

Hah. Relax environmental standards when the economy is doing badly. The destruction of only one of those things means the end of the world. I bet you’re exactly the same type of short sighted greedy baby boomer behind half the problems with the environment today.

It is not the token right of big business to make a killing at the expense of the environment. You do not have some god given right to own 3 cars and a boat and a monstrosity of a house. Hope you’re enjoying your increasing energy prices and interest rates, though. Look at your friendly family business Exxon’s profits. Oh yeah, let’s give them some more tax cuts too in this poor economic environment so that they can pass the savings down to people like you who they care about so much.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

when times are tougher?? can it get any worse? (damn, it can. who can say recession)

It can get much, much worse. Have a chat to someone who was a working adult during the last recession, when unemployment got to double figures nationally, interest rates were around 17% (RBA rate is current 7.25%), and there was no commodities boom bringing money into the country. If you lost your job back then it wasn’t a simple case of getting another (even at reduced pay). This was a time when people lost their homes and were selling cars and personal posessions to feed their kids.

Believe me, things aren’t really that bad at the moment – it just looks that way because of the long period of good economic times we’re coming off.

“Have a chat to someone who was a working adult during the last recession??” what, like me?

one thing i noticed was that retail still was on an increase, and as i was renting, there wasn’t much of a squeeze on me.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy2:47 pm 06 Aug 08

when times are tougher?? can it get any worse? (damn, it can. who can say recession)

It can get much, much worse. Have a chat to someone who was a working adult during the last recession, when unemployment got to double figures nationally, interest rates were around 17% (RBA rate is current 7.25%), and there was no commodities boom bringing money into the country. If you lost your job back then it wasn’t a simple case of getting another (even at reduced pay). This was a time when people lost their homes and were selling cars and personal posessions to feed their kids.

Believe me, things aren’t really that bad at the moment – it just looks that way because of the long period of good economic times we’re coming off.

They are generating power from the methane from the tip. If you sign up for green power this is one of the sources. See the website http://www.greenpower.gov.au/how-greenpower-works.aspx#qa11 for more information.

The power plant that is being proposed isn’t green power. I would think it would get more support if it was.

Whats wrong with covering the roof of the data centre with solar panels and tossing in a few wind turbines for the cloudy windy days ?

Whatsup said :

peterh: They aren’t planning to use methane from the tip, there will be turbines that run on natural gas that will be piped in.

I reckon bring on the EIS, that means some people can be held accountable for producing some facts. The waffle that has been published by both the for and against sides has been crap. The EIS will clear it up for once and all… its it going to harm peoples health or not ?

Politically the timing is interesting, it means Stanhope can play the “we’re listening to the community” card for the election then go back to his usual tricks afterwards.

maybe they need to look at reducing the impact on the environment by using methane from the tip. it is there to be used, and is a renewable energy source.

peterh: They aren’t planning to use methane from the tip, there will be turbines that run on natural gas that will be piped in.

I reckon bring on the EIS, that means some people can be held accountable for producing some facts. The waffle that has been published by both the for and against sides has been crap. The EIS will clear it up for once and all… its it going to harm peoples health or not ?

Politically the timing is interesting, it means Stanhope can play the “we’re listening to the community” card for the election then go back to his usual tricks afterwards.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Wasting the time and resources of the private sector is all well and good during strong economic times, but when times are tougher we’ll be wishing we took on nice easy employment opportunities.

when times are tougher?? can it get any worse? (damn, it can. who can say recession)

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy12:52 pm 06 Aug 08

Wasting the time and resources of the private sector is all well and good during strong economic times, but when times are tougher we’ll be wishing we took on nice easy employment opportunities.

Clown Killer12:11 pm 06 Aug 08

Hey, I made “Anarchist” … cool!

Uh – ACTEW and Jon S wanted it to go ahead, so it was going ahead.

Deb Foskey recommended and EIS on the original larger proposal and was told there was no need.

Then there was the public outcry, the proposal shrank, and Katy G suddenly saw a need for an EIS.

Clown Killer12:10 pm 06 Aug 08

Pretty much all of the work that would go into an EIS has already been done in the preliminary phase – they’ll just need to repackage a bunch of the consultants reports and probably beef up their Environment Management Plan.

A lot of people think that an EIS is about deciding whether or not a project should go ahead or not – it’s why they often get dissapointed. The EIS really just considered the impacts that will occure when the project goes ahead and what steps if any need to be taken to avoid / ameliorate / mitigate those impact when the project proceeds as planned.

It’s just more money for consultants…

Meh, I don’t mind impacts being studied.

I’m just curious how it all got this far before they decided they should do one.

what impact? they were using gas fired turbines from methane generated from the tip.
it was designed with green in mind.

what happens when they decide canberra is too hard to build in, and go to bungendore??

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