Do light-rail systems help cut down on traffic? Perhaps not.

I’m sure it’s possible to find dozens of articles either for or against light rail across the world.

As someone who lives along the corridor indicated, I am looking forward to light rail coming.
Presently in the morning, any time between about 7.50 and 8.30am, it can be difficult to actually get onto a bus, as they are often already full when leaving Gungahlin; and as a result, often drive straight past.

I do appreciate that this level of crowding is much better during other times of day, but the whole point of this is not to talk about how things are now. I can also appreciate that other parts of Canberra could also desperately do with better public transport. And I agree that possibly busways could be an option, however ACTION has a chronic shortage of drivers; which is not something likely to be easily fixed given Canberra’s cost of living and aging population.

But we need to start somewhere. And while it may indeed take many of the passengers off the buses, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Gungahlin is the transport hub for many of the bus services from the surrounding suburbs, and this role will only grow over time. Having the ability to go from Jacka or Bonner into Gungahlin and then to catch a fast, clean light rail service into Civic is surely better than trying to get onto the existing buses.

As mentioned by #35 (gooterz), I believe that building light rail changes the psychology around the issue. Because it is fixed, people have more confidence that it is going to stay put, and not be run down or moved away entirely. This feeds through to housing and other land uses; much of the Flemington Road corridor is marked as being medium-to-high density on a Canberra scale (although this is still pretty low density in world terms, I’d like to see higher building heights allowed).

I think that the presence of light rail will help to boost the property values of both apartments and houses along the corridor, which in turn should help to boost patronage over time. If it does work out to be popular, then there will pressure to build other routes along other corridors; all of which will help to get some of the traffic off the roads.

I certainly do not suggest it will be a panacea all across Canberra, nor even necessarily the northern suburbs. I think we will still suffer increasing congestion going forward, because of the rampant stupidity in continuing to build low density suburbs on greenfields land miles from any existing services. But despite the fact that this construction should have taken place in various places in Canberra back in the 1970’s (not Gungahlin at that stage, obviously), I think that light rail should help to lessen the impact and scale of that traffic congestion in future years.

And for the doubters – I ask this; if light rail is not built from Gungahlin and other places, and people are not given a genuine choice, then what happens in 20 years’ time when it takes an hour and a half to drive from the Gungahlin region into Civic?

In terms of housing, I actually wish that the first line to be built was from the new Molonglo Valley suburbs into Civic. That would have allowed for an actual high density town centre to be built from day one, and without the need for everyone buying out there to have cars. But that was too hard for the ACT Government (sigh), and so yet again, people are locked into cars and path dependence.
The same goes for Jerra and even Googoong over the border in Queanbeyan.

In terms of comfort, I think buses are fine. We just need them to run when and where I need them.

arescarti42 said :

OpenYourMind said :

Once again, I don’t think people are really considering the paradigm shift that autonomous cars represent. Given the kind of time that light rail will take to be fully operational and subscribed, autonomous vehicles are likely to be causing a mass rethink on transport. If you think it’s all sci fi, you need to do more research, it’s much closer than you might imagine.

We’re still decades away from fully autonomous cars, and even once they become technically and then commercially viable, you’d still have to wait another decade or so for everyone to replace their old non-autonomous vehicles.

Whilst they’d prevent a lot of crashes, you’ve still got the issue of traffic congestion, oil consumption, noise and air pollution, and issues of access for people who can’t afford them.

As I said, they represent a paradigm shift in transport. Google is talking about a matter of years and IEEE (a respected engineering organisation) is predicting 75% of cars will be autonomous by 2040.

A fleet of autonomous cars have the scope to dramatically reduce traffic time by intelligently routing cars with a network view (human’s poor judgement is a main contributor to traffic jams), autonomous cars offer a possibility of changing the car ownership model. Even the shape and design of cars may change with perhaps a model that acts somewhere between bus and car.

As for using oil, they are much more likely to be electric. When running low on power, the autonomous car will happily take itself off to a recharge station.

Uptake will be faster than imagined because the next generation of kids live and breath technology and appear, in my view, to have less interest in cars and more in the gadgets and electronics cars offer. Certainly little Miss P Plater in my house would rather be a passenger and texting than be driving.

While it will be a while before we see autonomous cars, installation of a light rail system aint going to happen overnight. We’ll look pretty silly if we spend all that money and the transport game changes before our eyes.

If light rail serves a suburb or district like Molonglo Valley with a half decent service then wont the residents opt for the cheaper public transport option.

The thing about rail is that the lines are fixed the government can’t suddenly change the route around one day like they can with bus routes.

Rail travel is far superiour to bus, the acceleration is much more constant and doesn’t suffer the hard turns of buses. More room and easier to load unload.
The biggest turn off for public transport for most people is the uncomfortable atmosphere of the bus.
At the moment the only intertown buses that doesn’t meander around a suburb is woden to civic the rest of the ‘intertown express’ are slow and useless as ‘express’ buses.

Jerra (the geographic location in canberra not the NSW suburb) is going to be the next indrustry/commerce district in canberra. Why not build rail (proper rail not a tram that sticks to streets) at the same time as the *First* development goes in. Have limited parking and have the developer pay a fraction of the cost for the rail station.

Next extend the rail into the main city centres in both directions, Woden/ Tuggeranong/Civic/Airport this encourages people to ride to their local centre or drive then train the rest of the way. Or live in civic/Tuggeranong/Woden in one of the apartments. With the longer distances between roads and crossing for this empty part of canberra the rail could easily be elevated over main roads etc.

Thus instead of getting people in canberra that drive cars and have done so all their life, Canberra attracts a sydney sort of person that is used to living in high density apartments and using Public transport.

Plus it also provides a place where commerce can fly people to Canberra airport and rail them to a place of business for the day avoiding the need for taxi’s
Then the canberra rail could switch over to highspeed rail connecting sydney-canberra-melbourne at the airport.

It seems awefully stupid to fill in canberra with ultra high density shoe boxes without putting in a rail system. Above ground rail is 10x cheaper than building a Canberra subway, in 50 years time.

International experience shows that light rail is far more effective than buses in attracting car owners to convert to public transport.

In reality, good public transport systems are a combination of light rail, integrated with feeder buses and well placed park n ride facilities.

Restricting the provision of car parking spaces in congested centres and pricing them realistically is also essential.

OpenYourMind said :

Once again, I don’t think people are really considering the paradigm shift that autonomous cars represent. Given the kind of time that light rail will take to be fully operational and subscribed, autonomous vehicles are likely to be causing a mass rethink on transport. If you think it’s all sci fi, you need to do more research, it’s much closer than you might imagine.

We’re still decades away from fully autonomous cars, and even once they become technically and then commercially viable, you’d still have to wait another decade or so for everyone to replace their old non-autonomous vehicles.

Whilst they’d prevent a lot of crashes, you’ve still got the issue of traffic congestion, oil consumption, noise and air pollution, and issues of access for people who can’t afford them.

Light Rail is not what we need. Unless a hypothetical at-grade light rail/tram route gets total signal priority all the way from end to end, which it never will (the SCATS traffic light control system isn’t that easy to configure when it comes to total signal priority for light rail), you’ll find the trams stopping for traffic lights will make the trip even slower than driving. Certainly slower than buses.

Run it elevated or in a cutting. That means fairly major engineering works. That means it’s not technically going to be light rail. The big plus of having it grade separated means you can fence off the tracks and make it driverless. Automating the trains means substantially lower ongoing costs, and it will free up hundreds of bus drivers on the intertown routes to instead run local feeders into the rail stops at the major centres and the various main road intersections. It also allows for bus stops to be immediately above or below the platforms, minimising walking distance at interchange points en route.

My example would be on a hypothetical route from Gunghalin to Civic (or Gunghalin to Southside via Civic), with a train stop at Northbourne/Antill/Mouat near Dickson. Instead of the buses from Kaleen, Giralang and North Lyneham to the west, and Watson etc to the East, each turning onto Northbourne and going into the city, you run the buses East-West across town. That means people can more easily get to the local shops at Dickson, while letting those going into Civic take the Elevated or Sunken Automated Train. The bus stops would be in the median strip, where the intersection would be widened slightly (You can widen it substantially if there are too many buses arriving simultaneously). The bus would pull over inbetween the Northbourne carriageways, just above or below the train station. There’d be two entrances to the station, as the buses would run in two directions and you’d need an entrance for each bus stop/direction. You’d get out of the bus, walk up or down a ramp, and be at the train platform. It also means it’d be just as easy to get from Lyneham or Hackett to Gunghalin by bus/train as it would be to get into Civic. Just now the former is near impossible.

It’d work if the rail line was elevated or sunken, but it’d never work if it was at-grade, as the bus stops would block the tracks.

The same would then apply to buses from Lyneham, O’Connor and Turner, and Ainslie & Hackett (and possibly Dickson Shops), at Macarthur Ave.

No bus from the inner north should then head into Civic.

Light rail was always supposed to be part of Canberra’s plan. It’s in Walter Burley Griffins proposal for Canberra. It just never got built.

Once again, I don’t think people are really considering the paradigm shift that autonomous cars represent. Given the kind of time that light rail will take to be fully operational and subscribed, autonomous vehicles are likely to be causing a mass rethink on transport. If you think it’s all sci fi, you need to do more research, it’s much closer than you might imagine.

Is it just me, or are the two paragraphs in the original post almost entirely unrelated?

This could be a 2 or 3 parter but let’s chip away at it.

Will the trains be stopping every 500 metres or so like the buses do?

Jivrashia said :

Rollersk8r said :

If you won’t currently catch a bus why would you suddenly start catching a train?

Why?

Easy – because catching a train is faster than driving while the bus is up to 3 or 4 times slower than driving. If train costs are roughly equivalent to the bus, you get the savings compared to driving as well.

I don’t understand why these points are so hard to understand!!

I have been a happy train commuter in several cities, but avoid buses like the plague because buses inevitably go at glacial speed while trains are faster than driving in peak hour.

Some ACTION routes seem to me almost to have been deliberately designed to take the longest possible route between A and B.

IrishPete said :

nsn said :

TheAxeMan said :

I never take a bus – hate them
But I would take a train or rail

“I like choo-choo trains.”
Can’t argue with that logic.

Buses – dirty, crampled, uncomfortable, lurch around, unreliable (because of traffic), inefficient design (usually everyone gets on through one door). Cheap.
Trains – clean, quiet, smooth, spacious, comfortable, pretty reliable, quick to enter and exit so less delay at stops. Expensive.

You get what you pay for.

IP

Now do Light-Rail

I don’t think we will ever see light rail in Canberra in my lifetime, despite what promises have been made, the economics will not permit it. Instead we will spend millions on studies to prove something’s we already know.

I wish we had a light rail system, I really do. But I just dont see it ever happening.

Better off spending the money on more bus services, with Eco-friendly buses and a compromise plan of park and ride in some form.

I would be keen to see the co2 emissions and fuel usage of buses versus cars. Surely with the micro detail we have on passenger numbers with people getting on and off,we could start seeing some analysis from action?

enrique said :

nsn said :

Say, about every 15 minutes? Between a major town centre and a CBD? Like the 200 Red Rapid bus from Gungahlin to Civic?

Your arguments are not arguments for light rail. They are arguments for public transport.

You have a fair point. Here’s a few ideas to counter that…

Unless you’ve got separated bus lanes all the way along the entire route, buses can still get caught in traffic jams. A prioritised/separated/right-of-way light rail wouldn’t have that issue.

You can also scale up quite well using light rail… just add more carriages (this argument only holds assuming the relative cost of a new carriage is less than that of an additional bus)

Pollution is lower with light rail (assuming the electricity is sourced from renewables). Given the current ACT targets for renewable energy then I think we’re well on the way to achieving that one.

Light rail is easier for people with wheelchairs, prams, luggage, small shopping carts (i.e. the little pull-behind numbers), etc… simply roll-on and roll-off using at-level platforms. Once on board, roll into the numerous spaces designed for that purpose (i.e. the newer Melbourne trams).

I still say the time efficiency of the train is negligible over such a short distance. Seriously – how fast does the train go? It still has to follow the road for the most part, stop at the lights, pick up and drop off.

nsn said :

TheAxeMan said :

I never take a bus – hate them
But I would take a train or rail

“I like choo-choo trains.”
Can’t argue with that logic.

Buses – dirty, crampled, uncomfortable, lurch around, unreliable (because of traffic), inefficient design (usually everyone gets on through one door). Cheap.
Trains – clean, quiet, smooth, spacious, comfortable, pretty reliable, quick to enter and exit so less delay at stops. Expensive.

You get what you pay for.

IP

nsn said :

Say, about every 15 minutes? Between a major town centre and a CBD? Like the 200 Red Rapid bus from Gungahlin to Civic?

Your arguments are not arguments for light rail. They are arguments for public transport.

You have a fair point. Here’s a few ideas to counter that…

Unless you’ve got separated bus lanes all the way along the entire route, buses can still get caught in traffic jams. A prioritised/separated/right-of-way light rail wouldn’t have that issue.

You can also scale up quite well using light rail… just add more carriages (this argument only holds assuming the relative cost of a new carriage is less than that of an additional bus)

Pollution is lower with light rail (assuming the electricity is sourced from renewables). Given the current ACT targets for renewable energy then I think we’re well on the way to achieving that one.

Light rail is easier for people with wheelchairs, prams, luggage, small shopping carts (i.e. the little pull-behind numbers), etc… simply roll-on and roll-off using at-level platforms. Once on board, roll into the numerous spaces designed for that purpose (i.e. the newer Melbourne trams).

nsn said :

TheAxeMan said :

I never take a bus – hate them
But I would take a train or rail

“I like choo-choo trains.”
Can’t argue with that logic.

Didn’t ask you to argue with my preference

I’ve always thought the Bogata Bus Rapid Transit system looked like a far better proposal for a city like Canberra.

Free feeder buses bring people to the transit hubs where they pay, increasing flow. It’s compared to an above-ground subway, with dedicated lanes.

http://www.amara.org/en/videos/8j5CmMQxxj93/info/bus-rapid-transit-bogota/

Easier to update buses or remove broken down ones than a light rail.

Bogata also has median strip cycleways, putting cyclists in the middle of large roads which protects them from entering and exiting traffic. Something like that would be most suitable for Northbourne.

You could do a lot for the whole of Canberra with the money spent for a light rail.

enrique said :

Why would anyone use it if they don’t already use the bus system?

Well, mainly because they’re different systems with different goals.

Light rail is pretty much straight line point-to-point to-from major hubs. They’re a lot more efficient (i.e. faster) to get someone into a major urban centre than buses that snake through the suburbs are. Get the frequency up and you’ve got a reliable and quick service to get you into town.

Say, about every 15 minutes? Between a major town centre and a CBD? Like the 200 Red Rapid bus from Gungahlin to Civic?

Your arguments are not arguments for light rail. They are arguments for public transport.

Why would anyone use it if they don’t already use the bus system?

Well, mainly because they’re different systems with different goals.

Light rail is pretty much straight line point-to-point to-from major hubs. They’re a lot more efficient (i.e. faster) to get someone into a major urban centre than buses that snake through the suburbs are. Get the frequency up and you’ve got a reliable and quick service to get you into town.

Why would someone use light rail if they currently use their car?

Commute cost & time reduction… no parking and no fuel to pay. If they can keep the ticket prices and transit times low enough then people are just as well off perhaps even better off in terms of time and money if they use the light rail to get to and from work everyday.

Future proofing Canberra so it doesn’t end up with horrible traffic problems like bigger cities.

If we put in the infrastructure now we’re getting ready to avoid the traffic problems that bigger cities have. You won’t keep your ‘bush capital’ the way its going. There was once a time not that long a ago when you could drive anywhere in Canberra at any time of day and *never* experience a traffic jam unless there was some major accident or event. Those days are over and the population is just going to keep increasing. If you think this town can keep growing without efficient public transport then you’ve got rocks in your head.

On top of that, there are the future generations to think of… what sort of legacy do we want to leave for our children and grandchildren etc? More of the same system but with higher local/city pollution and worse traffic jams or an improved overall system with better options and potentially lower pollution? Good urban design should allow people to be able to get around without *having* to own a car…

Lastly, what about people less fortunate than most of us that can’t drive a car? e.g, those with a disability? Why should they be stuck with the same crappy bus system forever? Shouldn’t we go out of our way to make life easier for them? Imagine if you physically couldn’t drive and you were told your only option to get around was by an ACTION Bus. Not only do you have to deal with the cards life has dealt you, you’ve also got to add *hours* to your commute each day because your local bus service is terrible. How f@#ked would that be for you!

An article, about an article, about an article. That references other articles showing the evils of light rail…

Please google ‘confirmation bias’.

In my experience, almost all transport economists have biases. Even those that hand on heart proclaim they are mode agnostic. Some are pro-bus, some are pro-rail. You need to look at a wide range of material before arriving at a conclusion.

Capital Metro will reduce road congestion by altering travel habits over the long term. If it had been built in the mid-90’s the GDE may never have been built.

The buses from Gungahlin to Civic in peak hour are already at capacity. Where do we go from here? To light rail. If you also believe you are going to see more and cheaper parking to cater for the car drivers of the future, i suggest you start riding unicorns to work.

Damien Haas
Chair, ACT Light Rail

TheAxeMan said :

I never take a bus – hate them
But I would take a train or rail

“I like choo-choo trains.”
Can’t argue with that logic.

I never take a bus – hate them
But I would take a train or rail

OMG! Common sense! Kill it with fire!

Light rail proponent logic: Lets build a half-billion dollar (plus operating expenses) light rail trunk network to replace the most operationally efficient part of the current bus network (which is already subsidised by $101 million annually). Then take those those extra buses and use them to provide additional loss-generating suburban services. Genius.

Public transport in Canberra is going to be poor because of the lack of density. As such it’s not going to “solve” congestion directly. If you take someone out of a car, into public transport, then someone else takes that place. IMO, congestion fees, and parking fees do.

But “good” public transport, as well as “good” non-car investments provide an alternative way to get around.

>…is The Worst Idea Ever

Everything is the worst ever. Few days ago Civic Loop was “worst projects that this joke of a government has signed off on”. Zara is “the most over-rated rubbish…”. Only the strongest emotions will do.

(Not convinced that light rail plan is a good idea either, but live in the south side).

p996911turbo said :

If it ever gets built…

They have already committed to build it! That was the deal with Rattenbury! Construction must start by 2015.

thebrownstreak69 said :

The intertown routes are the thing Action does best. Replacing these is a total waste of resources. It would be smarter to think about building more dedicated bus infrastructure (e.g. widening roads for dedicated bus/motorbike/taxi lanes) to improve the services, because this could be done bit by bit, and we could assess the performance of each change and use this information for planning more work.

We need a more pragmatic approach. How and why do people here use public transport? Why? What can be done to improve service in this context?

Spending a heap of money to build something that already works reasonably well is not smart.

Agree! The Northbourne busway idea would be so much cheaper!

gasman said :

We lived in Vancouver…

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Vancouver area has at least double Canberra’s population, with a much denser downtown/city area – which is why a train (especially an elevated one) makes so much sense there.

The intertown routes are the thing Action does best. Replacing these is a total waste of resources. It would be smarter to think about building more dedicated bus infrastructure (e.g. widening roads for dedicated bus/motorbike/taxi lanes) to improve the services, because this could be done bit by bit, and we could assess the performance of each change and use this information for planning more work.

We need a more pragmatic approach. How and why do people here use public transport? Why? What can be done to improve service in this context?

Spending a heap of money to build something that already works reasonably well is not smart.

Rollersk8r said :

I’ll say it again: light rail for Canberra is The Worst Idea Ever – and I say this as a regular bus user. It’s a no brainer – the only thing the train will possibly do is take a few passengers off ACTION. So how many tens of millions for a few less buses down Northbourne??

If you won’t currently catch a bus why would you suddenly start catching a train? Those who have a need to drive will still drive. And what is more convenient – a train station in the middle of Gungahlin or a bus stop on your street?

If there’s not a train stop within walking distance of your house then why would you wait for a bus to the train station, and then wait for a train? Gungahlin’s only around 10km from Civic – once you’re on a bus you may as well stay on it!

The reason so many people don’t bother catching the bus is because the service is inconvenient when compared to using a car. I could catch a bus to work, but it would take me nearly 3 – 4 times longer than taking the car because the first bus only comes every hour, and then I have to change buses to another bus that only comes hourly. The changeover times don’t coincide. Plus I have to rely on the bus being on time (has been hit and miss in past). I can’t speak for everyone, but I know that most of my friends/colleagues experience something similar.

Implementing light rail between the major city centres would allow for Action to use their resources to more effectively service the non-city centres and funnel commuters onto rail. Of course, the government would have to do sensible things like have a single ticketing system for bus and rail to make it worthwhile, but the potential is there. I’d be happy to catch a bus and then light rail to work, but not if the current bus system remains as is.

If it ever gets built, Canberra is going to be a prime example of what that article is talking about. The only proposed light rail routes are exactly the same routes that are the BEST our buses have to offer.

Take the Gungahlin to Civic route. The buses are extremely regular and good. Anyone who chooses to drive instead is obviously doing it for a bloody good reason (maybe they’re going somewhere else, maybe they need their vehicle, whatever). None of those people are suddenly going to stop driving because they can take a train instead of the bus.

We lived in Vancouver when the 20km long Richmond line of the Skytrain was opened. This elevated light rail linked the southern part of Vancouver to the Downtown core. The week after it opened, car traffic along the same corridor dropped by over 20% and has remained so. It converted what used to be a very frustrating 45 minute car drive into a very efficient 20 minute train ride.

Just that one line transports 136,000 passengers per day. Thats a lot of cars not used. Admittedly several bus lines were also removed along the same journey, but not 136,000 passengers worth. Most of that capacity is from people who would have otherwise used cars. The reduction in cars to the core has allowed the City of Vancouver to convert one entire lane of the Burrard Bridge into a dedicated and separated bicycle lane, to general acclaim.

Since the original Skytrain was introduced into Vancouver in 1985, it has carried over 1 billion people with just 10 accidental deaths over 28 years (from people falling onto tracks). There has never been a Skytrain collision. Compare that to car transport where the annual risk from a car accident in Australia is about 2000 deaths and 18,000 serious injuries, or a 1 in 1000 risk per person per year.

Of course, the Skytrain is a little more sophisticated than what I suspect Canberra will get:

It is elevated, so it never has to stop for traffic lights.
It is computer controlled (no driver)
It gets its power by induction (no wires).
Trains run at 1 to 5 minute intervals during peak times and 5 to 10 minute intervals at other times. Yes, up to 1 train per minute! There is no need for a timetable – just show up and a train will be by soon.
A $2 ticket gets you 90 minutes of travel on the entire Vancouver public transport system – Skytrain, bus, ferry.
Children, students and pensioners travel for just $1 for 90 minutes
it has a 96% punctuality record
At each end of its journey, a cleaning crew runs through the train to clean it.
Each train has a bicycle carriage, and bikes travel free
Every Skytrain station has bicycle lockers for easy park-and-ride
It is safe, clean, fast and cheap.

I guess it depends of how well a city implements a public transport plan. Build it right, and the people will use it. Build a half-hearted underfunded system, and it will be a waste of money.

Rollersk8r said :

If you won’t currently catch a bus why would you suddenly start catching a train?

This.

Before light-rail is even considered there should be resource spent on trying to get more commuters to catch the bus.

I’ll say it again: light rail for Canberra is The Worst Idea Ever – and I say this as a regular bus user. It’s a no brainer – the only thing the train will possibly do is take a few passengers off ACTION. So how many tens of millions for a few less buses down Northbourne??

If you won’t currently catch a bus why would you suddenly start catching a train? Those who have a need to drive will still drive. And what is more convenient – a train station in the middle of Gungahlin or a bus stop on your street?

If there’s not a train stop within walking distance of your house then why would you wait for a bus to the train station, and then wait for a train? Gungahlin’s only around 10km from Civic – once you’re on a bus you may as well stay on it!

What happens if you build it and they don’t come. England has become car centric like the USA and us. Building the road capacity at the same time won’t encourage people to use public transport no matter how good it is.
The carrot only works with the stick and that is that you need to restrict car use as well.Governments are frightened to do that because they will inevitably will lose elections.