Do the good citizens of Tuggeranong want to pay ~$150 million for a Civic to Gungahlin tram line?

As a Tuggeranong resident, I don’t necessarily mind paying for a light rail, provided there is a plan to either extend the service to the rest of Canberra overtime, or if the good people of northern Canberra can spring us a few $$$ for a project to benefit us down south. – Who am I kidding, there is never any plan to do something to benefit those people who live down south unless it somehow also benefits the north. (Speaking as a former belco / gunners resident)

poetix said :

gibbering said :

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/8832673/Tunnel-vision-pushes-flawed-study-off-the-rails

This article identifies several flaws in the report about the cost of transport options for Wellington that you refer to in your comment.

You mean a letter to the editor written by a couple of students should be listened over an expensive Government study? Okay I’ll buy that.

Sarcasm mode off.

Diggety said :

Low pop density seems to be the main problem with the proposal. And I see no real solution of which would compliment the light rail making it viable.

Except on the Northborne Ave/Flemmening Road corridor. Where there is the density now or under construction. Hence why the line is going down that route in particular and won’t be viable anywhere else in Canberra. And I must admit I have my doubts about the Northbonre Ave/Flemmington Road corridor too, I think it is marginal.

Henry82 said :

Imo the whole thing doesn’t need implementing, but it would be nice to have it planned so if we do need one in the future we just drop it in like a hot wheels track

In fact, this what Very Light Rail (VLR) offers.

Of course we could just hold onto our cash for a couple more years and then really pioneer public transport with a fit-for-purpose mix of automated macro transit and personal rapid transit systems using dedicated lanes for driverless vehicles, starting with a spine between commercial centres, and prioritise medical centres, retirement homes, disabled homes and other mobility-limited groups, and then slowly branching out into suburbia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns896Thb9oY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5SchtSQcvY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J17Qgc4a8xY

gibbering said :

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/8832673/Tunnel-vision-pushes-flawed-study-off-the-rails

This article identifies several flaws in the report about the cost of transport options for Wellington that you refer to in your comment.

rosscoact said :

Diggety said :

[qc.

Saint Etienne in France?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/saint-etienne/saint-etienne-tram.htm

Saint Etienne having a higher population density than Canberra by a factor of at least 5 though.

Low pop density seems to be the main problem with the proposal. And I see no real solution of which would compliment the light rail making it viable.

Canberra has a population density of about 1100 per km2 in the urban/suburban areas so about half that of St Etienne. Plenty of other reasons why it’s not a directly valid comparison but 5 x density isn’t one of them

That was the whole point of nominating St-Etienne. It is all about population density. Car parking space in St-Etienne is also very limited so everyone is obliged to use public transport.
It is also a folly for the Capital Metro project to be modelled on the Gold Coast’s GoldLinQ 13km, 16 station route with a 536,480 population (2011) plus tourists (with surfboards).

Imo the whole thing doesn’t need implementing, but it would be nice to have it planned so if we do need one in the future we just drop it in like a hot wheels track

Diggety said :

[qc.

Saint Etienne in France?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/saint-etienne/saint-etienne-tram.htm

Saint Etienne having a higher population density than Canberra by a factor of at least 5 though.

Low pop density seems to be the main problem with the proposal. And I see no real solution of which would compliment the light rail making it viable.

Canberra has a population density of about 1100 per km2 in the urban/suburban areas so about half that of St Etienne. Plenty of other reasons why it’s not a directly valid comparison but 5 x density isn’t one of them

dungfungus said :

Gee, a bus running on the existing railway line from Kingston to Queanbeyan? That is visionary.
As the need for additional mass transit grows commensurate with demand we either have to provide more buses and this in turn will need more infrastructure unless you think we can tolerate more congestion on our roads (or we can consider a modal shift to light rail).

http://www.nswrailheritage.com.au/orhprojects/cashontrack/secondfleet.htm

Note that FP13 ran Cooma-Bombala, so it certainly passed through Queanbeyan at times.

gibbering said :

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

As to Wellington, that is by no means decided. There is still a lot of support for light rail.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Main reason, canberra seriously needs to get with the times. We are meant to be the capital city of a wealthy country, not a country town

So you’re saying that we should build it simply to show off? Policy by narcissism?

And by ‘get with the times’ do you mean like early 20th century Sydney and Melbourne who, afterall, had trams in those times.

Yep, that’s getting with the times if ever I’ve seen it.

Nothing about social/ cultural/ economic issues? Whether it’s really needed? What to do about the rest of the city? How much it is going to cost in the long run and will it actually deliver any real benefits? Will people actually use it?

Nope. it’s all about showing the rest of the country that we are smart and sophisicated. By putting in a tramline….

As I said, I’m not against it, but I’d like to see an overall plan for a full Canberra light rail, not just a line that runs down the middle of Northbourne Avenue.

Mate, it has to start somewhere, right?

And more and more city’s over seas are implementing great rail systems! I know it’s a big what if, but what if this would be a catalyst for a proper bullet train around Australia?

Mr Thumper, I respect like, 99% of your input and I would honestly like to know what you think this cost could be spent better on. As I said, we are a very wealthy city. Most complaints on this site is nitpicking and first world problems.

Let’s see a plan for the whole of Canberra, not just Gungahlin. If they were serious about building this thing, and serious about this utopian view then they would be looking at a 10-15 year plan to have light rail all over the city. As they haven’t, i can’t take them seriously.

http://www.actlightrail.info/p/routes-for-light-rail.html

there are two main points I think about this:
1 – The government has agreed to get the project to build ready by 2016 in the hope the Greens will fall out of power and the current parliamentary agreement will no longer be in place, therefore no need to entertain light rail.
2 – If it were to be built in Canberra in the proposed timeframe, Gungahlin is the ideal spot to begin. Northbourne Avenue is wide enough, whichever dlivery option is eventually agreed upon. The majority of population growth will be in the Gungahlin area based on the Government’s residential land release program. Once the new Government office block is developed in Gungahlin, more developments will occur based on the Government’s commercial land release program. This will kickstart a shift in traffic flow back out toward Gungahlin during peak periods.

Like it or not, Gungahlin is where it’s at.

In my opinion, planning for the big picture based on current programs and trends seems pretty logical.

The NBN is an example of the federal government’s understanding of the Canberra scene. Regardless of how bad the actual rollout is, the location selected can’t be knocked.

IMO the main obstacle will be behavioural.

Many Canberrans are sufficiently wealthy to own a car. It is the marginal cost of operating the car that factors into commuting decisions, not average cost. If you have a registered, insured car already it is hard to disregard sunk costs and not use it as much as possible.

Some big is required to get people to overcome their status quo bias. eg. running the trams free for a year. Once people get used to it, they are more likely to stick with it even for a reasonable fee (IMO). But getting them to take the first step to a new transport paradigm will not be easy.

switch said :

dungfungus said :

You have nailed it. The only solution is to make the “light” rail “lighter” and with the cost savings concurrently spread the network further into worker dense areas across the lake, link with existing line to Queanbeayan, Tralee etc.
It can be done.

Yeah, they’re called buses and run on existing infrastructure.

Gee, a bus running on the existing railway line from Kingston to Queanbeyan? That is visionary.
As the need for additional mass transit grows commensurate with demand we either have to provide more buses and this in turn will need more infrastructure unless you think we can tolerate more congestion on our roads (or we can consider a modal shift to light rail).

dungfungus said :

You have nailed it. The only solution is to make the “light” rail “lighter” and with the cost savings concurrently spread the network further into worker dense areas across the lake, link with existing line to Queanbeayan, Tralee etc.
It can be done.

Yeah, they’re called buses and run on existing infrastructure.

Diggety said :

dungfungus said :

gibbering said :

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

Saint Etienne in France?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/saint-etienne/saint-etienne-tram.htm

Saint Etienne having a higher population density than Canberra by a factor of at least 5 though.

Low pop density seems to be the main problem with the proposal. And I see no real solution of which would compliment the light rail making it viable.

You have nailed it. The only solution is to make the “light” rail “lighter” and with the cost savings concurrently spread the network further into worker dense areas across the lake, link with existing line to Queanbeayan, Tralee etc.
It can be done.

dungfungus said :

gibbering said :

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

Saint Etienne in France?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/saint-etienne/saint-etienne-tram.htm

Saint Etienne having a higher population density than Canberra by a factor of at least 5 though.

Low pop density seems to be the main problem with the proposal. And I see no real solution of which would compliment the light rail making it viable.

Let’s see a plan for the whole of Canberra, not just Gungahlin. If they were serious about building this thing, and serious about this utopian view then they would be looking at a 10-15 year plan to have light rail all over the city. As they haven’t, i can’t take them seriously.

This.

poetix said :

dungfungus said :

….

Using catenary free lighter trams …

When a catenary smells gas, it hisses.

Actually, it can explode.

gibbering said :

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

Saint Etienne in France?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/saint-etienne/saint-etienne-tram.htm

gazket said :

Like to see how the budget surplus is looking or will it be like federal Labour and say the mini train isn’t included in the budget . Ground hog day

You mean like the NBN isn’t included in the budget?

gibbering said :

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

Thanks for the link to the story on Wellington. New Zealanders seem to be able to add up and draw conclusions when they’re presented with figures on the costs/benefits of alternative options, unlike the light-rail-obsessed in Canberra.

IIRC, the estimated cost of the bus rapid transit option for City-Gungahlin was less than half the $600m plus of the light rail option.

What could you do with the $350m left over for City-Woden? Say 2 or 3 bus stations between Woden and Capital Hill, ramps down onto and median bus lanes on State Circle with a couple of stops to serve Barton and the top of Kings Avenue, ramps up onto Commonwealth Avenue with median lanes over the bridge and directly onto London Circuit?

What’s more, all buses travelling along any part of the Woden-Gungahlin corridor could use the dedicated busway, shortening travel times and freeing up traffic lanes for cars and bikes.

It’s worth having a look at Brisbane’s extensive busway network.

Like to see how the budget surplus is looking or will it be like federal Labour and say the mini train isn’t included in the budget . Ground hog day

Happy to see actual figures in an actual report showing that a busway would be more expensive than light rail, especially for a similar sized city.

Also the gloss on light rail is fading apart from amongst the light rail sellers and extreme greens.

For example, Wellington (similar climate and population) is abandoning their light rail plans in favour of a busway as a report (wow!) showed that it was 2-3 times more expensive with limited extra benefits.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/8886349/Tripping-the-light-fantastic

Alternatively, show me a city of a similar size anywhere in the world that has implemented light rail without it turning into the Simpsons monorail episode. From what I read it actually reduces overall public transport usage as no one likes changing transport and waiting in sub zero temperatures as well as increasing overall prices for other buses etc.

JC, eg wetlands, small park renos, far more sparse bus coverage, to name a few. And a significant proportion of the taxpayer funds allocated in the last budget for ‘Tuggeranong’ was actually for the prison, the tip and the ESA, but these are services for the entire city and do not actually improve the amenity of Tuggers. The population of Tuggeranong is large and deserves much better than this.

http://images.canberratimes.com.au/file/2013/06/04/4463072/Budget_Map_2013.pdf

The mistakes made in Gunners are the high density and tiny roads, which I predict will prove to be ghetto-esque in 20 years. But Tuggers has already been waiting over 30 years for some problems to be rectified or indeed completed.
And as I said, can we just have an improved the bus service so we get proper coverage over the whole of the city, instead of an expensive Wunda Product for a select few.

Main reason, canberra seriously needs to get with the times. We are meant to be the capital city of a wealthy country, not a country town

So you’re saying that we should build it simply to show off? Policy by narcissism?

And by ‘get with the times’ do you mean like early 20th century Sydney and Melbourne who, afterall, had trams in those times.

Yep, that’s getting with the times if ever I’ve seen it.

Nothing about social/ cultural/ economic issues? Whether it’s really needed? What to do about the rest of the city? How much it is going to cost in the long run and will it actually deliver any real benefits? Will people actually use it?

Nope. it’s all about showing the rest of the country that we are smart and sophisicated. By putting in a tramline….

As I said, I’m not against it, but I’d like to see an overall plan for a full Canberra light rail, not just a line that runs down the middle of Northbourne Avenue.

Mate, it has to start somewhere, right?

And more and more city’s over seas are implementing great rail systems! I know it’s a big what if, but what if this would be a catalyst for a proper bullet train around Australia?

Mr Thumper, I respect like, 99% of your input and I would honestly like to know what you think this cost could be spent better on. As I said, we are a very wealthy city. Most complaints on this site is nitpicking and first world problems.

poetix said :

dungfungus said :

….

Using catenary free lighter trams …

When a catenary smells gas, it hisses.

I thought canaries were used?

dungfungus said :

….

Using catenary free lighter trams …

When a catenary smells gas, it hisses.

dungfungus said :

gibbering said :

Easier to argue anyone supporting Light Rail over a dedicated busway should get their head read.

Why not choose 1/3 the cost for almost the same benefits?

Source?
http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/publications/files/LightRailVSBus.pdf

The slide on claims vs reality is particularly good.

If dedicated bus lanes are created on the median strips the same amount of road infrastructure will be required (buses weigh the same as conventional trams) so their is no cost savings. Trams are cheaper to run (less rolling resistance and no rubber tyres to replace) and are faster (no traffic to compete with). The report does state that the aggregate outcome is that light rail is cheaper.
Using catenary free lighter trams would mean that underground services do not have to be excavated and re-located. Massive savings on capital costs as well as reduced running costs and lower emissions (not to mention the elimination of visual pollution) will result.

You’re making a alarming amount of sense in this thread. Particularly RE: the triangle.

Call me cynical, but I really struggle to believe anything the ACT Govt says in regard to public transport in Canberra, especially after this doozie from 2004/5:

“Zed Seselja has put out a media release on the amazing travel time claims being made by the Government about their Belconnen-Civic Busway…….

………For those who came in late, the issue is that the current scheduled trip time is 17 minutes. The Government is claiming the proposed $150 million busway will cut 15 minutes from the travel time. Providing for a 2 minute trip over the roughly 10km route.

10km in 2 minutes would require an AVERAGE speed of 300km/h. One can only imagine the acceleration and peak speeds required. Good luck to any bicycles racked to the front of these suckers.

Of course the scheduled time was conservative. How Simon Corbell plans to cut 15 minutes from the travel time of people who regularly make the trip in 14 minutes remains an object of some fascination to many of us.”

http://the-riotact.com/zed-sesleja-discovers-the-time-travelling-busway/1580

You must be one of those greens voters who can’t do basic maths.

I agree with you about the second bit, but not sure what it has to do with the first. I’m a Greens voter and I think this is a waste of money. But first, the maths:

Assuming Canberra has 100,000 cars, that equates to over $1 billion cost to society each year.

Hello. Welcome to The Real World! It’s a mystical, maaaagical place where – wait for it, things are about to get trippy – money isn’t utterly destroyed when people spend it. That’s right! It might ‘cost’ me something, but the money goes to somebody else! Car factory workers! Petroleum refiners! Truck drivers! Public services! Banks! Insurers! Even doctors! All that money goes round and round and everybody gets to enjoy it! We call it ‘the economy’. Perhaps you might like to get one in Bizarroberra, because that way you won’t equate $1 billion moving freely around a system with $1 billion being put in a pile and disintegrated – or turned into a pile of moving scrap.

obesity, heart disease

Are there treadmills in these trams? Do you run along beside them?

If we as a city and society

…yes…

bring in a comprehensive sustainable transport system

…yes…

we could conceivably halve the number of cars and car use in Canberra

If by ‘we’ you mean ‘the north side’ and by ‘halve’ you mean back in Bizarro World where 4500 northsiders own half of the city’s cars and they all stop using them, then sure – if they pay for it.

I recall when growing up in Belconnen in the 80?s that a place called Tuggeranong was getting all the new roads, the new schools, the new shopping centres for exactly the same reason, simply at the time it was the growth area of Canberra.

You have roads. You have schools. You have new shopping centres. I don’t recall Tuggeranong getting a f*cking monorail.

Want the kind of infrastructure they have in cities with 4 million people? Move back to Melbourne.

JC said :

Chop71 said :

gasman said :

I would re-phrase the title of the post as “Can we afford to NOT put in a light rail system?”

…and my answer would be.

Yes

Give to to Belco, Woden and Tuggers first

It won’t work to Belconnen, Woden and Tuggeranong. The only reason it MAY work to Gungahlin is because of the housing density along Northbourne Ave and Flemmington Road.

This is the bit that people just don’t get. The light rail as planned is not about servicing the whole Gungahlin ‘district’ but the corridor from Gungahlin to the City and maybe a park and ride near Mitchell.

Sending a light rail down Adelaide Ave, Belconnen Way or Athlon Drive would be pointless.

Who lives at Mitchell?

Hey JC,

Stop flogging that pony or I will have to report you to the stewards.

Chop

JC said :

Where to start?

a lot of the revenue for the ACT comes through stamp duty

the current government is removing stamp duty in the future.

We are talking now not 10 years in the future,

What? Other house owners didn't pay stamp duty in the past?

Nope not saying that, but when they were paying they got their infrastructure. It may well be poor by TODAYS standards, but that is besides the point.

Gungahlin has roads, street lights, etc, right? Just like the other suburbs. I note a lack of light rail in the other areas however.

Yes it does, but it doesn’t have 3 main roads leading out of it. Again the mentality is we don’t have it therefore they shouldn’t. How about a more progressive thought of hey they made mistakes here, how about not making the same mistakes again.

Assuming that light rail in Gungahlin isn’t simply another expensive mistake.

Where to start?

a lot of the revenue for the ACT comes through stamp duty

Except the current government is removing stamp duty in the future.

We are talking now not 10 years in the future,

What? Other house owners didn't pay stamp duty in the past?

Nope not saying that, but when they were paying they got their infrastructure. It may well be poor by TODAYS standards, but that is besides the point.

Gungahlin has roads, street lights, etc, right? Just like the other suburbs. I note a lack of light rail in the other areas however.

Yes it does, but it doesn’t have 3 main roads leading out of it. Again the mentality is we don’t have it therefore they shouldn’t. How about a more progressive thought of hey they made mistakes here, how about not making the same mistakes again.

Chop71 said :

gasman said :

I would re-phrase the title of the post as “Can we afford to NOT put in a light rail system?”

…and my answer would be.

Yes

Give to to Belco, Woden and Tuggers first

It won’t work to Belconnen, Woden and Tuggeranong. The only reason it MAY work to Gungahlin is because of the housing density along Northbourne Ave and Flemmington Road.

This is the bit that people just don’t get. The light rail as planned is not about servicing the whole Gungahlin ‘district’ but the corridor from Gungahlin to the City and maybe a park and ride near Mitchell.

Sending a light rail down Adelaide Ave, Belconnen Way or Athlon Drive would be pointless.

gasman said :

I would re-phrase the title of the post as “Can we afford to NOT put in a light rail system?”

…and my answer would be.

Yes

Give to to Belco, Woden and Tuggers first

gibbering said :

Easier to argue anyone supporting Light Rail over a dedicated busway should get their head read.

Why not choose 1/3 the cost for almost the same benefits?

Source?
http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/publications/files/LightRailVSBus.pdf

The slide on claims vs reality is particularly good.

If dedicated bus lanes are created on the median strips the same amount of road infrastructure will be required (buses weigh the same as conventional trams) so their is no cost savings. Trams are cheaper to run (less rolling resistance and no rubber tyres to replace) and are faster (no traffic to compete with). The report does state that the aggregate outcome is that light rail is cheaper.
Using catenary free lighter trams would mean that underground services do not have to be excavated and re-located. Massive savings on capital costs as well as reduced running costs and lower emissions (not to mention the elimination of visual pollution) will result.

So Ali-star,

Can i as a resident of Gungahlin not pay for all the crap happening outside of Gungahlin please;
roads, schools etc?

By your way of thinking (imo) you’d prefer that we seperate all the ‘regions’ of Canberra to be little kingdoms called councils.. self sufficient little places where the serfs can pay their taxes to the local council and each council pay for their own bit of turf…

You would look great as a Sherif of Nottingham… muppet.

Arrow said :

People should be suspicious any time a pollie (of any stripe) claims a project “will cost each resident” a certain amount.

Just under half of ACT Govt money comes from the commonwealth, not from “our pockets”.

And where does the Commonwealth get its money from, other than the pockets of taxpayers? Or perhaps you are suggesting that the rest of Australia should subsidise Canberra even more.

Arrow said :

And nor is it the case that personal tax is the source of all commonwealth government income (ever heard of company tax? import duties?).

Company tax ultimately comes from people’s pockets. If companies weren’t taxed they could: make more profit, which could be returned to people as dividends, higher share prices, whatever; lower prices and make the same profit, thereby benefiting consumers (that is, people); or, heaven forbid, pay higher wages while still making the same profit.

Import duties also come from people’s pockets as they result in higher prices to consumers.

Arrow said :

We and our kids are not “on the hook” to personally cover the cost of government projects. It’s a cheap trick to criticise funding proposals in this way.

So, yes, we are on the hook as governments get their money from people – even if indirectly.

Easier to argue anyone supporting Light Rail over a dedicated busway should get their head read.

Why not choose 1/3 the cost for almost the same benefits?

Source?
http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/publications/files/LightRailVSBus.pdf

The slide on claims vs reality is particularly good.

JC said :

One other thing that is missing in Mr Coe’s sums is the fact that a lot of the revenue for the ACT comes through stamp duty. Now the bulk of housing sales are in Gungahlin which in turns says to me that Gungahlin residents are paying a disproportionate amount into the government coffers. So why should they not get their pound of flesh, especially as other area’s of Canberra got theirs when they were the growth areas of town.

Good point also.

One other thing that is missing in Mr Coe’s sums is the fact that a lot of the revenue for the ACT comes through stamp duty. Now the bulk of housing sales are in Gungahlin which in turns says to me that Gungahlin residents are paying a disproportionate amount into the government coffers. So why should they not get their pound of flesh, especially as other area’s of Canberra got theirs when they were the growth areas of town.

People should be suspicious any time a pollie (of any stripe) claims a project “will cost each resident” a certain amount.

Just under half of ACT Govt money comes from the commonwealth, not from “our pockets”.

And nor is it the case that personal tax is the source of all commonwealth government income (ever heard of company tax? import duties?).

We and our kids are not “on the hook” to personally cover the cost of government projects. It’s a cheap trick to criticise funding proposals in this way.

I’ve never (yet) used the Adelaide to Darwin railway either, but I recognise the national benefit of it being there. I’m sure I’ve also contributed more to ACT Hospitals than the direct benefit I’ve received, but I recognise the benefit of having them there – not everything should be “user pays”

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Why?

I’m not against it at all, but tell me why?

Main reason, canberra seriously needs to get with the times. We are meant to be the capital city of a wealthy country, not a country town. Innovation and superior tech should be top of canberrans list.

Also, peeps should think about long term benefits and not be small minded fools that only think things should be done to suit the next election.

This is entirely consistent with what I have alluded to in my comment about the Capital Metro plan having no vision and being blinkered about other light rail technologies that are more value for money. Even though most of your comments are crap I must give credit where credit is due.
Well done C&GN !

Aren’t we already paying for it with Athllon drive and Hindmarsh point to points. They should build some on the Northside to even things out a tad if they already haven’t.

JC said :

miz said :

As a regular user of public transport and a person generally supportive of infrastructure for the public good, I am still not convinced about this light rail project. This is not necessarily because it only services a very small part of Canberra and will cost a lot, though those are serious concerns. Ultimately though, I don’t trust the ACT Govt, who consistently starts new expensive projects in the inner north and stops them before they ‘trickle down’ to Tuggeranong. So it’s lose lose – we pay, and get nothing.

If there was a definitive iron-clad plan, and locked in funding, for Canberra-wide light rail coverage, I might be more supportive. But my current position is Fix the Transport We Already Have. A ‘maybe in the future’ does not cut it for Tuggeranong residents.

And just to address JC’s raised issue about Tuggeranong getting infrastructure in the 80s, that was around self govt and everything was done crappily and minimally. Loads of things in Tuggers are Still unfinished after all this time, the rest is seriously under-maintained, and they keep delaying crucial works like Ashley Drive duplication. There is also the fundamental problem of a town centre that is not in the centre of the populace, which has needed addressing since the 1980s. You only have to look around to see these problems, and given the large size and population of Tuggers these issues are not going to go away and the clamour is only going to get louder. But not enough MLAs live in Tuggers and therefore these things are perpetually ignored. No wonder Tuggers residents don’t want to pay for yet another expensive northside project.

So what your saying us because they made mistakes in Tuggeranong they should make the same mistakes in the north just to even things up? To me that is very short sighted I would have though Gungahlin was the opportunity to not make the same mistakes and do things properly.

Also what projects have starred in the north but not filtered through? I am racking my mind to think of any actually.

Ps the town centre of Tuggeranong was built under the Feds. Self government came in 1989 the town centre was built circa 1986 with the Hyperdone opening in 1987. Though fear not if you have been to Gungahlin town centre you will see the mess they have made of that. In particular having Flemmington road run right into the Main Street rather than going past and also having smaller shopping at malls all over the place rather than just one.

Yeah that’s right, Additionally, Tuggeranong was originally to be far larger and the Town Centre to be literally at the centre of a very large residential area. When the plans for West Tuggeranong fell through, many of the original plans seemed to get watered down. The Commonwealth did have much more ambitious plans for Tuggeranong.

They’re only now getting around the remedying that by increasing density in the master plan, but it still won’t offset the fact that Gunghalin is where the more pressing need is.

Tuggeranong was also an experiment in Canberra planning, in that it came at a time when government policy favoured privatisation. The result was a bit of a disaster from the outset.

On a side note, perhaps be thankful not all the infrastructure projects planned for Tuggeranong came to fruition. In the late 70s, the NCDC planned for Lake Tuggeranong to not only filter water for the river, but to also serve as a giant coolant source to run the town centre’s air-conditioning systems.

miz said :

As a regular user of public transport and a person generally supportive of infrastructure for the public good, I am still not convinced about this light rail project. This is not necessarily because it only services a very small part of Canberra and will cost a lot, though those are serious concerns. Ultimately though, I don’t trust the ACT Govt, who consistently starts new expensive projects in the inner north and stops them before they ‘trickle down’ to Tuggeranong. So it’s lose lose – we pay, and get nothing.

If there was a definitive iron-clad plan, and locked in funding, for Canberra-wide light rail coverage, I might be more supportive. But my current position is Fix the Transport We Already Have. A ‘maybe in the future’ does not cut it for Tuggeranong residents.

And just to address JC’s raised issue about Tuggeranong getting infrastructure in the 80s, that was around self govt and everything was done crappily and minimally. Loads of things in Tuggers are Still unfinished after all this time, the rest is seriously under-maintained, and they keep delaying crucial works like Ashley Drive duplication. There is also the fundamental problem of a town centre that is not in the centre of the populace, which has needed addressing since the 1980s. You only have to look around to see these problems, and given the large size and population of Tuggers these issues are not going to go away and the clamour is only going to get louder. But not enough MLAs live in Tuggers and therefore these things are perpetually ignored. No wonder Tuggers residents don’t want to pay for yet another expensive northside project.

So what your saying us because they made mistakes in Tuggeranong they should make the same mistakes in the north just to even things up? To me that is very short sighted I would have though Gungahlin was the opportunity to not make the same mistakes and do things properly.

Also what projects have starred in the north but not filtered through? I am racking my mind to think of any actually.

Ps the town centre of Tuggeranong was built under the Feds. Self government came in 1989 the town centre was built circa 1986 with the Hyperdone opening in 1987. Though fear not if you have been to Gungahlin town centre you will see the mess they have made of that. In particular having Flemmington road run right into the Main Street rather than going past and also having smaller shopping at malls all over the place rather than just one.

I think what Mr Coe is actually suggesting is that the 4500 people who have put up their hands to use the light rail should each be paying $136,666.67 to foot the $615 million bill.

bigred said :

but the good citizens of Tuggers will like the cross subsidisation from Gungahlin folk as the light rail approaches their abodes. Next thing “the boy” will be opposing light rail on environmental grounds. Toot Toot!

Do you call him “the boy” because you think he’s too young to be a minister? What should the minimum age limit be before one is allowed to join in and thoroughly balls everything up with the other mature grown ups?

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

But seriously, anybody for light rail here has no brain and is a big poopypants.

I fixed that for you.

See how easy it is?

Perhaps if you’d like to use intelligent rationale rather than simple name-calling you might invite worthwhile response.

As a regular user of public transport and a person generally supportive of infrastructure for the public good, I am still not convinced about this light rail project. This is not necessarily because it only services a very small part of Canberra and will cost a lot, though those are serious concerns. Ultimately though, I don’t trust the ACT Govt, who consistently starts new expensive projects in the inner north and stops them before they ‘trickle down’ to Tuggeranong. So it’s lose lose – we pay, and get nothing.

If there was a definitive iron-clad plan, and locked in funding, for Canberra-wide light rail coverage, I might be more supportive. But my current position is Fix the Transport We Already Have. A ‘maybe in the future’ does not cut it for Tuggeranong residents.

And just to address JC’s raised issue about Tuggeranong getting infrastructure in the 80s, that was around self govt and everything was done crappily and minimally. Loads of things in Tuggers are Still unfinished after all this time, the rest is seriously under-maintained, and they keep delaying crucial works like Ashley Drive duplication. There is also the fundamental problem of a town centre that is not in the centre of the populace, which has needed addressing since the 1980s. You only have to look around to see these problems, and given the large size and population of Tuggers these issues are not going to go away and the clamour is only going to get louder. But not enough MLAs live in Tuggers and therefore these things are perpetually ignored. No wonder Tuggers residents don’t want to pay for yet another expensive northside project.

poetix said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Me no brain,
Don’t like train,
Pay my tax but get no gain.
Belco growing,
but traffic slow flowing,
This government needs some overthrowin’.

Please, don’t. Just don’t.

Why not? It may not be Ogden Nash, but it’s not bad for a bit of fun.

How about they use the money from this ridiculous project to fix the damn roads around Canberra. The Tuggeranong Parkway road surface has worn away to the point where when it’s raining cars are able to slide sideways above 80km/h at their own accord. Not to mention the same problem on Yamba Drive, andthe increasing amount of massive ‘car swallowing’ potholes on Namitajira Drive.

They bang on about this Light Rail project which is an absolute ‘want’ rather than ‘need’, expect taxpayers to fund it, but are more than happy to ignore the problems brought to them by us – the people who elect them. Once a government actually starts listening to the people it represents, it might actually get my vote.

I suspect one of the reasons that light rail is focused on the inner north is because Katy Gallagher, Andrew Barr and Shane Ratterbury all live there. They are at the centre of all decisionmaking in this government, and the inner north is the centre of their universe. They know little else, outside of re-election time.

Unfortunately the 80% of Canberrans who won’t benefit from light rail and who will continue to endure crappy bus services will be the ones who have to subsidise the green’s utopic wetdream vision for the inner north.

Maybe I and others who live more than 2kms from the N’thbourne corridor can request a deduction from our rate bills, as they inevitably rise in the future to cover the $0.6b cost?

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Why?

I’m not against it at all, but tell me why?

Main reason, canberra seriously needs to get with the times. We are meant to be the capital city of a wealthy country, not a country town. Innovation and superior tech should be top of canberrans list.

Also, peeps should think about long term benefits and not be small minded fools that only think things should be done to suit the next election.

HiddenDragon said :

Even if – and I still think it’s a very big IF – the initial segment of the light rail network actually happens, I fully expect that there will be many compelling reasons (mainly financial) why the rest of Canberra will never see it. The rest of us will go on paying for the initial segment for ever after, and many people in the areas ostensibly serviced by it will still be using cars because (just like rail/tram networks in other cities) it will necessarily be limited and inflexible in its coverage.

You think? Given the population density of canberra extending a light rail line to different areas would make as much sense as Queanbeyan having a subway system. In any case if they actually build the Gungahlin to City line it will be such a colossal financial disaster there will be no more talk of light rail.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Me no brain,
Don’t like train,
Pay my tax but get no gain.
Belco growing,
but traffic slow flowing,
This government needs some overthrowin’.

Please, don’t. Just don’t.

Even if – and I still think it’s a very big IF – the initial segment of the light rail network actually happens, I fully expect that there will be many compelling reasons (mainly financial) why the rest of Canberra will never see it. The rest of us will go on paying for the initial segment for ever after, and many people in the areas ostensibly serviced by it will still be using cars because (just like rail/tram networks in other cities) it will necessarily be limited and inflexible in its coverage.

but the good citizens of Tuggers will like the cross subsidisation from Gungahlin folk as the light rail approaches their abodes. Next thing “the boy” will be opposing light rail on environmental grounds. Toot Toot!

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Based on the numbers and the opportunity cost, anybody for light rail in its current form has no brain. It’s an ill-conceived, expensive joke.

cranky said :

Dungfungas @ #14

Good grief. I thoroughly agree with you

Watch this space.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Wow.

It appears Nick Cater should write another chapter of his book to accommodate imbaciles in the class equation.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Me no brain,
Don’t like train,
Pay my tax but get no gain.
Belco growing,
but traffic slow flowing,
This government needs some overthrowin’.

Nice rap..

I have to admit that is a clever way to present the negative side. The Libs could probably do something like that for nearly all location specific or targeted expenditure which would set various population groups against each other nicely. For example, the Libs could take this stance in the unlikely event in our lifetimes that light rail is extended anywhere else in the ACT.

Personally though, I’m still not convinced about light rail vs other transport modes such as multi articulated buses nor do I understand why the cost difference and costs per km are so high for this specific route.

Very true, and not just for the libs. Any project you could do something like this to show how others are paying. But that is not the point really, there is absolutely and utterly nothing in terms of infrastructure in this town or planet for that matter that benefits everyone equally. Yet that is what many on this board seem to want. The mentality irks me somewhat as being rather selfish.

neanderthalsis said :

cheryanne said :

Why is everything about Gungahlin – NBN, light rail?

It’s all about the marginals. A quick look at the 2012 election results by polling booth shows that Gungahlin polling booths consistently polled strongly in favour of the Libs.

If the Gungers ‘burbs were to sepatate from the “inner urban nirvanaville” (thanks Barnaby) of the inner north, you would probably, based on 2012 returns, see an all Lib electorate.

Crap. It is all about spending where it is needed and a growing area needs more money for new infrastructure than established areas. As mentioned above it was all that long ago that Tuggernanong was getting the disproportionate share of spending because it was growing.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Me no brain,
Don’t like train,
Pay my tax but get no gain.
Belco growing,
but traffic slow flowing,
This government needs some overthrowin’.

Dungfungas @ #14

Good grief. I thoroughly agree with you

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Source?

The real question is, is there such a thing as a *good tuggeranong resident*(lol)?

But seriously, anybody against a light rail here has no brain.

Let’s just have a look at the projected population by 2019 for the various urban areas:

Gung 55,000
Inner North 57,000
Belco 95,000
Woden 35,000
Weston 24,000
Tuggers 88,000
Inner South 29,000
Molonglo 10,000

So the ratio northside/southside is approx. the same. When one looks at the population densities north/south they too are similar.

My argument is that generally speaking Canberra’s population density ranges from low to medium regardless of location.Of course there are exceptions to the rule however as far as the corridor from Gungahlin to the City is concerned,judging by those figures,i don’t believe that the number of people living along that route is sufficiently great to warrant light rail.

But I suspect it matters not what I or anyone else here thinks for it would appear that Corbell and Co are determined for the project to go ahead and only time will tell whether they succeed.

Would Alistair Coe care to comment on why Tuggeranong residents had to chip in to pay for the GDE? For the matter we’re helping build a new hospital campus on the Northside too.

The Liberal ethos is basically don’t spend anything, plan one news-cycle ahead rather than one generation ahead, and throw mud to fill in the gaps. Really sickens me what a sad bunch the opposition are, because we actually do need a decent opposition.

bundah said :

I consider that Coe’s fusillade has merit for as i’ve said previously Canberra does not have the population density,nor is it likely too in the foreseeable future,to justify this project!

So long as the Government views the Capital Metro project as a carbon copy (pun regretted) of the Gold Coast light rail it will always be unviable, unpopular and electorally, suicidal.
The Government isn’t looking at more appropriate rail options which are half the cost to build and to run. Also, total lack of vision on what a light rail could do for Canberra and the region if it were immediately extended across the lake to the Parliamentary Triangle and on to Queanbeyan via Kingston.
All that is going to happen is that the Government will continue to set up of administartions to build it, do more studies etc. until just before the election in 2016 when it will be announced that it is “too expensive” and it will be binned.
Corbell promised to call for “Expressions of Interest” (which may liberate some better options) last November – so far only silence.

I pay for buses and schools in my taxes which I personally don’t use, so why not a rail system?

We really are backwards in not building for the future – a light rail system was supposed to be part of this city from the start, and we’re supposed to have another dam built by now for the growing population. We don’t have enough hospitals for the population either.

cheryanne said :

Why is everything about Gungahlin – NBN, light rail?

It’s all about the marginals. A quick look at the 2012 election results by polling booth shows that Gungahlin polling booths consistently polled strongly in favour of the Libs. If the Gungers ‘burbs were to sepatate from the “inner urban nirvanaville” (thanks Barnaby) of the inner north, you would probably, based on 2012 returns, see an all Lib electorate.

bundah said :

I consider that Coe’s fusillade has merit for as i’ve said previously Canberra does not have the population density,nor is it likely too in the foreseeable future,to justify this project!

Canberra doesn’t as a whole have the density that is true. But the Northborne Ave and Flemmington Road corridor does. Oh where are they planning light rail, yep down these two very roads.

banco said :

You must be one of those greens voters who can’t do basic maths. Firstly the annual cost could not be said to be small in the context of the Canberra budget. We have zero chance of reducing car use in Canberra by 25% let alone 50% given the layout of Canberra.

True light rail won’t reduce car usage for the most part. However light rail coupled with the high density housing that has and is being constructed along the Northborne Ave/Flemmington Road corridor will reduce future demand for existing road space, which in turn leads to an indirect savings in capital investment in roads to cater for the extra demand and of course the added ongoing road maintenance that goes with the capital expenditure.

Mr Coe is quite clearly playing this them and us card with his campaign against lightrail.

So Mr Coe if you are reading this can you please tell me how much as a resident of Belconnen that I paid to have all the roads, schools and infrastructure put into Tuggeranong and Gungahlin? Using the same argument you are using against light rail I should be up in arms that I paid for something that I don’t use. Now yes I can use those roads and infrastructure if I venture out that way, just like I will be able to use light rail if I wanted to go from the City to Dickson, the showground (provided of course they don’t move it) or Gungahlin.

Likewise I have no doubt those in the inner north, inner south, Woden and Weston Creek should be up in arms that they paid to build Gininderra Drive, Belconnen Way, William Hovell Drive, and of course the school that I went to. Afater all they didn’t gain any direct benefit out of that either did they?

As for now why am I paying part of the cost of the Majura Parkway, again I won’t use it. Now using your rubbery figures if my Belconnen household is paying over $4k for a $600m+ project then that means I am paying over $1000 for the Majura Parkway. (based on cost to the territory of $144m, being half the total cost as the Feds are picking up the rest). Now that’s not fair how about spending my $1000 worth in Belconnen.

Is my post stupid, yes it is, but so too is the argument that something shouldn’t be buillt because it doesn’t DIRECTLY benefit the whole of the ACT. Now note I did use the word directly, because even someone in the depths of Tuggeranong, or West Belconnen such as myself will see an indirect benifit from this project.

Also if the government broke their promise to the electorate and decided not to build it would you call them liars that cannot be trusted? I reckon you would.

Ok end of rant, but let me give you fair warning Mr Coe, like I said before the last election if you want me to vote for your lot, please spend the next 3 years in opposition proving to me WHY I should vote for YOU, not why you think I shouldn’t vote Labor. And whinging about stuff like this isn’t the way to win my vote, quite the opposite in fact as I don’t believe you have any better solutions or vision.

cheryanne said :

Why is everything about Gungahlin – NBN, light rail?

Ever stopped to think the reason is because Gungahlin is the growth area of Canberra? They need new infrastructure. I recall when growing up in Belconnen in the 80’s that a place called Tuggeranong was getting all the new roads, the new schools, the new shopping centres for exactly the same reason, simply at the time it was the growth area of Canberra.

As for the NBN again the reason they need it first is because it is new Telstra put in a wonderful ‘new technology’ phone system in whereby rather than having a central exchange the exchanges were in the street. They call them RIM’s. This meant they could use fibre optic back to the main exchange rather than copper. Of course this was done before broadband and to an extent before dial-up internet and this in turn has limited their access to the same level of broadband as the rest of old Canberra that does have copper to the exchange has. The reason being when you have a RIM you need your ADSL equipment in the street, so only Telstra has bothered whereas in the rest of Canberra (except for a few small pockets such as Dunlop where I live) all the other ISP’s with their own networks install in the main Telstra exchange.

Also don’t forget that Gungahlin, large parts of Tuggernanong and elsewhere in Canberra (again Dunlop) were ‘denied’ access to Transact due to the fact that services were underground and Transact only went to places with poles. So it’s not like they get everything.

gasman said :

I would re-phrase the title of the post as “Can we afford to NOT put in a light rail system?”

Cars cost individuals and society money. A conservative estimate is about $5000 per car per year (purchase cost/depreciation, rego, insurance, interest, fuel, repairs etc). If we factor in health costs (injuries, obesity, heart disease) or the environmental impact and costs of car use, that amount doubles. Assuming Canberra has 100,000 cars, that equates to over $1 billion cost to society each year.

Putting in a light rail system is a big one-off cost, followed by a small annual cost.

If we as a city and society bring in a comprehensive sustainable transport system, we could conceivably halve the number of cars and car use in Canberra, ultimately saving money, time, carbon and making the city a more pleasant place to live.

You must be one of those greens voters who can’t do basic maths. Firstly the annual cost could not be said to be small in the context of the Canberra budget. We have zero chance of reducing car use in Canberra by 25% let alone 50% given the layout of Canberra.

This “project” gets more and more laughable each day. We voted the most of the greens out, but due to them getting Rattenbury in by the skin of his teeth we now have to put up with unwanted green vanity projects.

Why not improve the existing bus services for the rest of us? I live in Kambah where we only get 3 morning and 3 evening buses that go to all the way to civic and at least one of those a week is canceled.

Why is everything about Gungahlin – NBN, light rail?

What about a bullet train to Sydney and Melbourne?
Something that we could all benefit from – quicker, cheaper access to other major cities for concerts etc.

I consider that Coe’s fusillade has merit for as i’ve said previously Canberra does not have the population density,nor is it likely too in the foreseeable future,to justify this project!

“Everybody pays for light rail whether you use it or not.”

Myopic to say the least.

gasman said :

I would re-phrase the title of the post as “Can we afford to NOT put in a light rail system?”

Cars cost individuals and society money. A conservative estimate is about $5000 per car per year (purchase cost/depreciation, rego, insurance, interest, fuel, repairs etc). If we factor in health costs (injuries, obesity, heart disease) or the environmental impact and costs of car use, that amount doubles. Assuming Canberra has 100,000 cars, that equates to over $1 billion cost to society each year.

Putting in a light rail system is a big one-off cost, followed by a small annual cost.

If we as a city and society bring in a comprehensive sustainable transport system, we could conceivably halve the number of cars and car use in Canberra, ultimately saving money, time, carbon and making the city a more pleasant place to live.

I hope you’re not suggesting that the light rail proposed is a substitute to all private vehicles in Canberra.

I would re-phrase the title of the post as “Can we afford to NOT put in a light rail system?”

Cars cost individuals and society money. A conservative estimate is about $5000 per car per year (purchase cost/depreciation, rego, insurance, interest, fuel, repairs etc). If we factor in health costs (injuries, obesity, heart disease) or the environmental impact and costs of car use, that amount doubles. Assuming Canberra has 100,000 cars, that equates to over $1 billion cost to society each year.

Putting in a light rail system is a big one-off cost, followed by a small annual cost.

If we as a city and society bring in a comprehensive sustainable transport system, we could conceivably halve the number of cars and car use in Canberra, ultimately saving money, time, carbon and making the city a more pleasant place to live.