18 March 2010

Early indications are....

| Henderj66
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I have recently relocated to the ACT and currently living on the North-side and I was hoping that Canberrans can advise me on a very strange motoring phenomenon that seems exclusive to the ACT.

Having driven around and commuted in many of the world’s largest cities, most of which are no where near as planned and as easy to get around as Canberra, I have been worried by a design fault that seems to be at epidemic proportions with ACT registered motor vehicles. In other countries, the ‘indicator’ on any vehicle, does what it says on the tin, it allows other road users to be aware that the driver ‘intends’ to change lanes, turn left or right etc. This has been a mainstay of production for many many years.

Imagine my concern, when driving around Canberra, that the ‘indicator’ does not mean the driver ‘intends’ to manoeuvre, but will move out, across, cut up or generally disregard any other user of the road at that time. If you are in the path of one of these soon to be recalled vehicles, and you do not get out of the way, preventing an accident, you are then berated by the ‘indicator’ and usually introduced to some rather agricultural language.

Can anyone help me understand this alarming situation and suggest how I cope next time I am in the way of someone who needs to manoeuvre, immediately, at all costs….(repeat to fade….)

[Ed] Welcome to Canberra

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As a pedestrian and as a cyclist I tend to find religion every time I enter a roundabout or pass an exit on a busy road (say commonwealth av) that nobody behind me has indicated an intention to use. namu myoho renge kyo.

Indicating at roundabouts is a bit like the old question “how long is a piece of string?” – it depends.

Roundabouts are of different sizes and have more, or less, traffic than others, so what that means is that you have to use commonsense – oh, wait… The average driver (anywhere, not just Canberra) doesn’t have any.

Mordd said :

Observing said :

Grrrr said :

The indicating-left-as you-leave rule seems pointless, too. Does anyone think it serves a purpose?

Yes, as a pedestrian, I think it does. And if people actually realised it served a purpose, it would mean I wouldn’t have to take a deep breath at a roundabout crossing and hope that by indicating right they actually don’t mean “I’m really not interested in turning right but hooning my car through your easily pulpable body…and anyway I’M safe in my car so tough luck.”

As a pedestrian crossing busy roundabouts, you really do have to cross your fingers and hope for the best in Canberra.

Oh hell yes, trying to cross roundabouts in Canberra or Queanbeyan can take ages as you never know which way anyone’s going regardless of the few that indicate. I have lost count of the number of times someone has indicated to go left or right then plowed on straight ahead through a roundabout almost bowling you over in the process as you dive for the median strip (if there is one) to avoid becoming their next hood ornament. Personally I think there should be an on the spot $500 fine for failing to indicate, hand a few of those out and you might get more people remembering what their blinker is actually for.

I once tried indicating left before I left a roundabout and the woman in the car on the left tried to drive in front of me. I guess you should stop indicating right at some point, but not too early or the same thing would happen.

CraigT said :

Here’s a clue: it’s a public road, and the lane is not *yours*. If somebody wants to change lanes, they are perfectly entitled to do so, and the safe-braking distance you have between you and the car in front means they can change lanes perfectly safely.

Yeah it is a public road, but when changing lanes you must still abide by give way laws. If a vehicle is in the other lane with a minimum safe distance between them and the car in front, then you cannot change lanes into that gap. You are only allowed to do so if there is a safe gap to enter. Entering into someone safe gap means they must adjust their speed to let you in which means you have failed to give way to them. The car is under no obligation what so ever to let you in, so for that moment in time that lane is THEIRS.

Here we have a true admission from a typical Canberra driver:

Mr Waffle said :

I’ve found that they’re confirmerators, confirming the fact that the person is currently barging into your lane…

Here’s a clue: it’s a public road, and the lane is not *yours*. If somebody wants to change lanes, they are perfectly entitled to do so, and the safe-braking distance you have between you and the car in front means they can change lanes perfectly safely.

merlin bodega10:10 am 20 Mar 10

Yes my ComCar driver has complained about this but I wasn’t that interested. I insist that he use his indicator at all times when he stops in the middle of busy highways. If there is a line of moronic drivers behind me and they have to swerve wildly to remain upright then that’s just there bad luck. Shit happens.

Der – didn’t you know that indicators were an optional extra on ACT plated cars? I thought everyone from interstate knew that. Invest in a stack hat and enjoy expecting the unexpected…

Canberra has the best roads and the worst drivers!

Ah, I was right.

Observing said :

Grrrr said :

The indicating-left-as you-leave rule seems pointless, too. Does anyone think it serves a purpose?

Yes, as a pedestrian, I think it does. And if people actually realised it served a purpose, it would mean I wouldn’t have to take a deep breath at a roundabout crossing and hope that by indicating right they actually don’t mean “I’m really not interested in turning right but hooning my car through your easily pulpable body…and anyway I’M safe in my car so tough luck.”

As a pedestrian crossing busy roundabouts, you really do have to cross your fingers and hope for the best in Canberra.

Oh hell yes, trying to cross roundabouts in Canberra or Queanbeyan can take ages as you never know which way anyone’s going regardless of the few that indicate. I have lost count of the number of times someone has indicated to go left or right then plowed on straight ahead through a roundabout almost bowling you over in the process as you dive for the median strip (if there is one) to avoid becoming their next hood ornament. Personally I think there should be an on the spot $500 fine for failing to indicate, hand a few of those out and you might get more people remembering what their blinker is actually for.

johnthetechie said :

rb, from what you’ve described of your driving technique above, the driver behind you does not see you do your head check and the first time they find out you’re changing lanes is when you indicate momentarily before you swerve in front of them. This may not be the case, but have you ever considered using the indicator BEFORE you do your head check, thus allowing the driver behind you a further second to recognise your decision making?

Bad driving technique like that is exactly what this post is complaining about, and although posts about “bad canberra drivers” have been beaten to death with a stick on riotact, your driving is a prime example of the attitude most canberrans (including me) have on the road.

Indicating before you check is the bad technique. Doing that is likely to scare the shit out of anyone in the other lane, and possibly force them to brake when they shouldn’t have to. You should only change lanes if there is a safe gap to move into, and you should only indicate your intention to take a gap if there is a gap.

So clearly you should only indicate your intention to move lanes AFTER you have made sure it is safe to do so. So you check, indicate, give enough time for it to be noticed, quick check again then move.

Grrrr said :

The indicating-left-as you-leave rule seems pointless, too. Does anyone think it serves a purpose? The distance from one exit to the next on the average roundabout is a few metres, with plenty of suburban ones being sub-2m. Cars travel at more than a few metres per second. To those about to enter, it can’t offer any prior notice unless the roundabout is huge.

If you read the road rules (rule 118 of the national road rules), it says if practicable you indicate left to leave a roundabout. So in the case of small roundabouts you could probably get away, quite correctly and legally without indicating. Clearly the important thing is indicating correctly when entering the roundabout so everyone else knows where your going.

screaming banshee said :

The newly released road rules could do with a dose of plain english, but provided you are not significantly altering your course (diverging – apparently) then there is no requirement to indicated when you merge without crossing a line.

That has always been the case when you merge at a “form one lane”. Same too with the fact that the car in front has the right of way. Though the ACT road rules do say you should be prepared to use your indicators.

Canberra used to be SUCH a nice place, before all those nasty people from interstate came here – and our NICE Mr Standope wants more of them??? Good grief!

Well FWIW, I check there is sufficient room, give plenty of warning with relevant indicator, and then move to where I am indicating. If people are tailgating and don’t leave enough room I’ll move anyway – “DIDN’T YOU SEE MY INDICATOR, STUPID?”.

johnthetechie said :

rb said :

If I want to move into another lane, I will do a head check to confirm there is enough room for my car to fit in, indicate, and then just move over. If it is a tight squeeeze and the driver behind gets angry at me, it is only because they were tailgating the car infront of them.

rb, from what you’ve described of your driving technique above, the driver behind you does not see you do your head check and the first time they find out you’re changing lanes is when you indicate momentarily before you swerve in front of them. This may not be the case, but have you ever considered using the indicator BEFORE you do your head check, thus allowing the driver behind you a further second to recognise your decision making?

Bad driving technique like that is exactly what this post is complaining about, and although posts about “bad canberra drivers” have been beaten to death with a stick on riotact, your driving is a prime example of the attitude most canberrans (including me) have on the road.

Johnthetechie, I think you described my post in more detail than me:
1. I never mentioned how long I indicate for, which fyi happens to be for several seconds
2. I never mentioned how I move over. I do not swerve.
3. I never mentioned exactly what ‘attitude’ I have when changing lanes.

Bad driving technique like what you escribed in your post is exactly what this post is complaining about. My driving however, is not.

Grrrr said :

The indicating-left-as you-leave rule seems pointless, too. Does anyone think it serves a purpose?

Yes, as a pedestrian, I think it does. And if people actually realised it served a purpose, it would mean I wouldn’t have to take a deep breath at a roundabout crossing and hope that by indicating right they actually don’t mean “I’m really not interested in turning right but hooning my car through your easily pulpable body…and anyway I’M safe in my car so tough luck.”

As a pedestrian crossing busy roundabouts, you really do have to cross your fingers and hope for the best in Canberra.

troll-sniffer2:25 pm 19 Mar 10

johnthetechie said :

rb said :

have you ever considered using the indicator BEFORE you do your head check, thus allowing the driver behind you a further second to recognise your decision making?
quote]

Nice try at reasoned thoughts sunshine but if you indicate you want to change lanes more than a second before you move will more often than not result in the ah sole travelling comfortable a few metres behind the spot you want to occupy speeding up just enough to close the gap. Much safer to spot the opportunity, make a judgement call and slip in with the minimum risk of being stymied. Sure, you might get the odd headlight flash from the ah sole who gets petulant that you slipped in while he or she wasn’t concentrating, but it only lasts temporarily, and when you’re in front you have the upper hand and can slow down just enough to retaliate for the headlight flash without actaully appearing to be antagonistic.

Works for me 🙂

Indicate the intention, not the action.

johnthetechie1:46 pm 19 Mar 10

rb said :

If I want to move into another lane, I will do a head check to confirm there is enough room for my car to fit in, indicate, and then just move over. If it is a tight squeeeze and the driver behind gets angry at me, it is only because they were tailgating the car infront of them.

rb, from what you’ve described of your driving technique above, the driver behind you does not see you do your head check and the first time they find out you’re changing lanes is when you indicate momentarily before you swerve in front of them. This may not be the case, but have you ever considered using the indicator BEFORE you do your head check, thus allowing the driver behind you a further second to recognise your decision making?

Bad driving technique like that is exactly what this post is complaining about, and although posts about “bad canberra drivers” have been beaten to death with a stick on riotact, your driving is a prime example of the attitude most canberrans (including me) have on the road.

la mente torbida1:42 pm 19 Mar 10

What, Canberra drivers are crap?….zzzzzzz

I dislike the logically-challenged folk who indicate right as they come onto roundabouts, even though they’re planning on travelling straight through .. what the hell are you thinking? Some of us actually plan ahead when approaching intersections, you know. Indicating that you’re not about to cross our path means we can enter the roundabout without coming to a stop first.

Worse though are the idiots intending to turn right who don’t bother to indicate until they’re on the roundabout. If I don’t assume you to be a moron / have a broken indicator, and I then enter the roundabout, you’re just going to plow into me, aren’t you?

The indicating-left-as you-leave rule seems pointless, too. Does anyone think it serves a purpose? The distance from one exit to the next on the average roundabout is a few metres, with plenty of suburban ones being sub-2m. Cars travel at more than a few metres per second. To those about to enter, it can’t offer any prior notice unless the roundabout is huge.

Thoroughly Smashed1:26 pm 19 Mar 10

Indicators? In the interests of privacy, nobody else has the right to know what I’m doing.

Pommy bastard1:21 pm 19 Mar 10

Why bother with indicators, everybody in Caberra drives very slowly, and in the right hand lane, don’t they?

canberrans employ the little-heralded ‘celebratory indicator’ technique, used to celebrate a successful manouevre including lane changes, turns and merges. yipee!

Five simple plain english road rules for harm minimisation:

1) Use your indicators sparingly, you don’t want to confuse the other drivers.
2) Beware, be very aware when other drivers are actually obeying the speed limit.
3) Audis have right of way.
4) Why slow down when you can swerve, but don’t forget to confirmicate.
5) Watch out for drivers wearing hats (I wear one).

SolarPowered11:54 am 19 Mar 10

I drove for 15 years in Sydney and don’t think Canberrans are any better or worse when it comes to indicating.

What I have noticed a lot, however, is that some people pick a speed and stick to it. They’ll do 70 through a 60 zone and stay on 70 in an 80 zone.

Yawn, I love riding to work in my lycra on driver funded cycle paths. So much more relaxed…..

screaming banshee said :

There are a few good drivers amongst the crowd however I am yet to traverse the length of the Parkes Way roadworks at Russel without having someone roar past at 80kph. ITS A 40KPH ZONE YOU MORONS.

Totally Agree!
When I drive through the Russel roadworks, I am usually the only person doing 40kph, and because I am doing the speed limit, everyone sits up my ass.

Something I actually find annoying is when people are in one lane, indicate to move over to another lane, and then don’t even try to merge – they just sit there indicating and expect other drivers to slow down/speed up to let them in.

If I want to move into another lane, I will do a head check to confirm there is enough room for my car to fit in, indicate, and then just move over. If it is a tight squeeeze and the driver behind gets angry at me, it is only because they were tailgating the car infront of them.

“Hi, I’m from out of town and would like everyone to join in and whinge and bitch about how bad the drivers in Canberra are. While bitching we need to ensure that everyone else here knows we are gods gift to the roads that can do no wrong.”

People in generally are completely unaware of anything going on around them, it’s not a Canberra specific phenomenon.

Hazza said :

It’s like driving around in a shelterd workshop isnt’t it.

only bigger

Clown Killer9:32 am 19 Mar 10

Having had the opportunity to drive in a number of other Australian cities and indeed other cities around the world I can’t honestly say I have noticed it to be a particularly Canberra specific thing, which isn’t surprising given the reality that Canberra drivers are really no better or worse than drivers anywhere else in Australia (possibly with the exception of Brisbane drivers).

I think that the indicate-and-move-regardless phenomenon is most likely a response to the practice of drivers accelerating hard to fill the gap as soon as they see and indicator come on.

The inability to merge – which to my mind is a uniquely Canberran driving thing is a different kettle of fish altogether.

screaming banshee9:21 am 19 Mar 10

Amethyst said :

He was behind me at a merge one lane and, recognising him and his car, thought I’d watch to see if he practiced what he preached. Sadly, it’s evident that he doesn’t.

The newly released road rules could do with a dose of plain english, but provided you are not significantly altering your course (diverging – apparently) then there is no requirement to indicated when you merge without crossing a line.

you will understand when you become a Canberran. We have a “sense” of when people will change lanes. Indicators? Who needs them! Leave space, don’t tailgate and you will be fine.

Look on the bright side, the reason Canberrans are such crap drivers is because (most the the) the roads here are really, really good. There are few traffic jams and very few fatalities. We are lazy and apathetic drivers because we can be. Enjoy.

I’ve found that they’re confirmerators, confirming the fact that the person is currently barging into your lane…

GardeningGirl2:11 am 19 Mar 10

Confirmator, havedoneator, yes, if they’re used at all those are good descriptions. Especially thrilling when a bus does it when pulling away from a stop, a thrill I’d be happy to do without. I recall there was a thread about that specific circumstance but as it happened to us yet again a few days ago I couldn’t resist mentioning it. And don’t get me started on the incredibly annoying and bewildering combination of indicator usage and roundabout navigation!

I have noticed this a lot lately… mostly when I was almost forced off the road by someone who decided they wanted to be exactly where I was.
I have no idea how or why this has happened. But I agree, it is incredibly dangerous and just downright annoying to other drivers.

On another note, I saw my driving instructor behind me the other day. I got my licence almost 3 years ago (yes, I’m a P-Plater) and it has always stuck in my head the amount of times he told me to indicate whenever I was changing lanes, merging or turning off. He was behind me at a merge one lane and, recognising him and his car, thought I’d watch to see if he practiced what he preached. Sadly, it’s evident that he doesn’t. I was disappointed, to say the least. Driving Instructors should set a good example, because of such a small town, any of his past or current students could be watching!

I’m sure there are plenty of cars sold here that must have had the indicators and headlights as optional extras which the owners didn’t want. Alternatively some people seem to think it wastes petrol to use their lights and indicators.

troll-sniffer10:53 pm 18 Mar 10

Perhaps you’re one of these people that see someone indicate and then move up into the gap that they want to move into. Happens all the time, and Canberra drivers are well known for say phukya and moving across anyway, causing the ah sole who could have let them in to slam on their brakes and berate the signalling driver.

I never have a problem with cars not indicating except occasionally at corners and roundabouts, I guess because I leave lots of room between me and the car in front and if someone wants to slide in there, indicator or no indicator, it doesn’t affect me if they do.

My money is on the OP here being a bit of a tailgater.

WAIT A MINUTE ? You’ve seen people indicating ? And here I thought they were an optional extra on cars these days.

The only way to drive in Canberra is to assume that every other driver on the road is a complete moron and to try and anticipate the unindicated lane change, the force past “merge” or the “optional” give way (as examples).

It’s how I avoided the idiot in the Corolla who tried to change lanes into the front of my car when I was driving to work this morning. Sounding horn to alert the driver I was there (and to prompt head check) just prompted him to continue changing lanes anyway? He’s lucky I saw him coming and I am quick on the breaks.

You get used to it.

Yes I’ve noticed that a lot of Canberrans don’t indicate, but their not the only one’s, Malaysia, rarely indicated when I lived there.

You know what, having driven in Canberra for the past 20 years, indicators is one thing I would say Canberran’s generally do well.

In Sydney for example, sure they use them, but in the big smoke they call them havedoneactors because they generally use them after the fact not before.

canberra bureaucrat8:29 pm 18 Mar 10

merge before they do

I so want to have an opportunity to use the term ‘agricultural language’.

Just beware if you see a lycra clad cyclist indicating…

Yawn, same old, same old. Canberra drivers don’t use it as an ‘indicator’, they use it as a ‘confirmator’. It’s to confirm what you’ve just done.

It’s like driving around in a shelterd workshop isnt’t it.

And now que the fights, here we go this should be funny.

screaming banshee7:32 pm 18 Mar 10

The indicator is there to tell you (or indicate to you) that you are in the other drivers way, its an honest mistake.

Think of it as brain training for driving, it keeps you on your toes.

Totally agree with you, I’ve been here 1.5 years now and Canberra drivers seem to have a huge sense of entitlement and how dare you use their roads on which they should be able to speed and generally drive poorly on.

There are a few good drivers amongst the crowd however I am yet to traverse the length of the Parkes Way roadworks at Russel without having someone roar past at 80kph. ITS A 40KPH ZONE YOU MORONS.

All I can say is welcome to Canberra. Although, I don’t really think its any worse here then what you see anywhere else, its still very annoying none the less!

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