3 August 2010

FBT catastrophe hits Barton

| johnboy
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The Canberra Times informs us of the imminent opening of the Morris Property Group’s Broughton Street parking lot in Barton.

Due to the Morris Property Group setting the day fee 54 cents above the FBT threshold the 10,000 odd public servants who work within 1km of the car park are now going to be hit with fringe benefits tax for their on-site parking.

The AFP, Foreign Affairs, Environment, Finance, Attorney-General’s, Prime Minister and Cabinet, and Parliament House will all be copping the sting when the park goes live in two weeks time.

One hopes the bus system, already chaotic on National Circuit around 5pm, can cope.

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Fouad Maatouk said :

vg said :

….and before I get the ‘what would you know?’, I’ve worked in Barton for the last 2 years

So you work in Barton Mr VG?

From your previous comments I must admit that I thought you were an operational front-line police officer.

Don’t believe everything you read on the internet……………..

Fouad Maatouk2:01 pm 06 Aug 10

vg said :

….and before I get the ‘what would you know?’, I’ve worked in Barton for the last 2 years

So you work in Barton Mr VG?

From your previous comments I must admit that I thought you were an operational front-line police officer.

vg said :

If you can’t find free parking in the Barton area you need your head examined.

I think the issue for most people isn’t that they can’t find a spot now, but that they might not be able to at some as yet undetermined time in the future.

Maybe people should pay for parking – there’s a massive opportunity cost associated with sprawling car parks in prime positions producing next to no benefit, apart from allowing a few tossers to feel good about how close their car is to their desk.

Anyway,$8 a day for 600 cars by 200 work days per annum doesn’t actually produce a viable return for the land-holder, ie if the land is worth $30 million that’s only a 3% return. Think about it – how long will it be a car park before it is re-zoned (by the ACT govt) and 400 apartments built – with a profit of some $150 million created for whoever owns it. The stamp duty alone will be $20 million. It’ll be rezoned within a year.

There are bigger issues at play than public servants and paid parking… Its all about big business, re-zoning and reaping the financial rewards…

….and before I get the ‘what would you know?’, I’ve worked in Barton for the last 2 years

shadow boxer7:08 pm 04 Aug 10

I wasn’t really talking about the rights or wrongs of it, it’s just really strange politics.

If you add the Russell precinct to the 10,000 workers affected and include their partners Labour has imposed a $100 a fortnight tax on up to 20,000 voters two weeks before the election.

If the liberals came out with a full page add tomorrow promising not to do this they couls peobably pick up 10-15,000 votes without losing any because if you dont work there you dont care (unless you are just mean).

Its probably not enough to effect the result in Canberra or Fraser but if the good people of Jerra, QBN, Bungendore and Wombeyan (who will have worse bus issues than me) fire up it could deliver Eden Monaro to the Liberals and probably throw Stanhope out at the next local election.

Shadow Boxer – do not think for one minute that Stanhope and his crew and the Opposition give the tiniest bit of the proverbial for your situation or that of any Mr/Mrs/Ms Ordinary Citizen. They are interested only in how little service they have to give, while maximising how much they can wring from your wallet and then come election time find out what scares you the most and then tell you who is to blame. But they are absolutely not interested in anything other than their own interests and that of the party machines they serve. It is a case of mind over matter. They don’t mind, because you don’t matter.

shadow boxer said :

It would be great if Stanhope could explain how I am going to drop my four kids at three different schools while making the three separate bus trips it takes to get from Ngunnawal to my work in Barton. I can’t drop them at school before 8 am.

If the Liberal party handles this correctly it could win Eden Monaro….

Who’s choice was it to have 4 kids at 3 different schools.

If you can’t find free parking in the Barton area you need your head examined.

Welcome to what the rest of society has to deal with daily

Did they think this through? Huge productivity cost to the nearby fed departments: 60 per cent of staff are at EL1 level or above, and they will simply (unofficially) count the walking to work from free parking further away as work time by way of protest. That’s already being threatened by several co-workers, e.g. one dedicated EL1 colleague whose working day is 8.00 to 5.30 and never takes time in lieu, is planning to work 8.30 to 5.00 … replicated all over, that’d be at least $100,000 a day in lost productivity …

shadow boxer4:36 pm 04 Aug 10

I’m the husband,

My point was it is impossible for me to catch the bus, meet my commitments, and still work business hours,

I’m probably not the only one out there given the amount of people that live in Eden Monaro, work in Barton and don’t want to pay an extra $100+ a fortnight in car parking fees. It would be enough to change my vote

shadow boxer said :

It would be great if Stanhope could explain how I am going to drop my four kids at three different schools while making the three separate bus trips it takes to get from Ngunnawal to my work in Barton. I can’t drop them at school before 8 am.

If the Liberal party handles this correctly it could win Eden Monaro….

The libs answer to this involves the wife staying home (after dropping the kids at school in the small hatchback) and doing some house work and cooking, while the husband [Note: "Husband"=Male & "Wife"=Female Only] drives the large “family” car to work and earns the money so they can afford to donate generously while at church on Sunday.

What was your question again?

georgesgenitals said :

TheObserver said :

The people this will hurt are the coal face public servants …

Why are you singling out black people?

and the welsh.

shadow boxer2:09 pm 04 Aug 10

It would be great if Stanhope could explain how I am going to drop my four kids at three different schools while making the three separate bus trips it takes to get from Ngunnawal to my work in Barton. I can’t drop them at school before 8 am.

If the Liberal party handles this correctly it could win Eden Monaro….

georgesgenitals1:56 pm 04 Aug 10

TheObserver said :

The people this will hurt are the coal face public servants …

Why are you singling out black people?

And you will note how nasty Stanhope gets when anyone challenges him about his free parking that he does not look like getting rid of any time soon. He calls it a cheap shot. Yeah right, a cheap shot to demand accountability. And where is Zed in all of this?

And of course Stanhope and his coterie of attack poodles blather on about ‘moaning fatcats’ – but you can bet your bottom dollar that the Departments will pay the FBT for the bloated ranks of the SES (and far too many of them with ‘Special’) in their job title – i.e. they have no staff or responsibilities and should be made redundant.

The people this will hurt are the coal face public servants – APS 3 to APS 6 – some EL1s – working mothers, single breadwinner fathers – they are the ones who are going to cop the biggest impost on this and only negative spin from the Chief Spinmeister and silence from the Opposition and obfuscation from Kate Lundy. Only Sen Humphries is seeing it for what it is – a cyncial ploy in Caretaker mode and a way down the track of lining the pork barrel for the next ACT election.

I wonder if there are any figures out there on the likely revenue and how it will be applied. I’ll give you drunkards odds it wont be to improve the moribund ACTION Bus services.

btw – declaration time – I work in civic.

Growling Ferret9:02 am 04 Aug 10

After three days of 600 carparks short in the parl triangle, staff are getting used to the 10 minute walk to their offices.

I wonder how long it will be before the new carpark owners start bleating that their facility is underused and they can’t compete with all the free parking.

It will go down like a lead fart for a little while then people will talk about the good ol days when they used to park for free. People will still park there and pay for it because they are too lazy to try another option.

Was listening to our Grand High Numbnut Stanhope this morning on the ABC about public transport, this parking issue, etc. Rather than trying to understand things he basically called listeners who rang up to comment on this and poor public transport in general as exaggerating or lying. I know from personal experience they aren’t because I live near town, used to work not far from one of the bus exchanges and it still took me 45+ mins to get a bus to work – and a 15mins drive. Can someone explain why a Labour politician in the middle of a tight election campaign would basically be calling people liars on radio!! Unless Canberra’s residents are just being held in contempt.

S4anta said :

Growling Ferret said :

JB

I’m pretty sure the FBT only kicks on for the staff who are provided an allocated car park, not just normal plebs who are suffering the parking nightmare that is currently unfolding!

I think if it is a salary sacrifice thing, FBT does come into the mix. Will need a beancounter to confirm though…

The confusing line about this car parking benefit is the following line:

(d) the provision of parking facilities for the car during the period or periods is in respect of the employment of the employee;

In respect of??

“in respect of” , in relation to the employment of an employee, includes by reason of, by virtue of, or for or in relation directly or indirectly to, that employment.

So… can anybody park in these places? If the answer is yes, then that proves that there is no “relation” between provision of a car park space and employment, so FBT does not apply.

John Moulis said :

It won’t just affect public servants. Tourists who attend the attractions within the Parliamentary triangle will have to pay as well. Not to mention students and other low income earners (ie: the disabled) who utilise the National Library. Would the recent exhibition at the National Gallery have been such a success if pay parking was operating? I know first hand about such a tax on tourism. I used to visit Bondi Beach every few weeks back in the early 1990s but I stopped going altogether because every time I returned to my car I’d find the inevitable souvenir of Sydney – a parking ticket under the wiper. Public transport within the Parliamentary triangle is very poor so that really isn’t an option. You would think the powers that be would be doing all they can to attract tourists and look after low income earners but I guess the lure of all that extra revenue proved too tempting in the end.

no, there is no pay parking within the triangle, and likely won’t be any time soon – and in any case, only specified employees for whom parking is provided will pay this tax, not joe public on a visit. as for ‘sydney souvenirs’ however, you’ll get a ticket wherever you park illegally – if you can’t/won’t read signs, don’t complain…

sexynotsmart8:00 pm 03 Aug 10

random said :

If you read the act it’s clear that it applies to everyone.

No, FBT applies if the employer provides the park.

Let’s talk through a complicated, refined yet understated, sexalicious example: me. I drive my own vehicle and park it privately. Like Britney after a breakdown, there’s not a fringe in sight (let alone a benefit).

Gord, the name Morris brings shivers down my spine. Used to work for him and his father Dennis many years ago at one of the servo’s they owned.

As for the FBT issue the employer pays the FBT but when it comes to the public service in particular they then pass any FBT cost onto the employee. The issue being though when it comes to car parking who do you pass the cost on to and how? The simple answer is to make it easy and charge for parking, so no issue, but that would go down like a lead fart.

When it comes to these apparent free car parks, you gotta remember that most of the land the car parks sit on is leased by departments, so the car park is being provided at a cost.

What irks me though is the fact that a company can come, build a car park, charge and then cause issues for others. You would think if the free parking was there first then there would be no issue.

eyeLikeCarrots5:47 pm 03 Aug 10

I read in the in the Crimes that Finance sold the land. Does this mean that the Dept of Finance was ‘actively’ providing parking for its employees and those of other departments in the area ?

Or were employees and members of the public simply taking advantage of Finance’s lack of policing ?

John Moulis said :

It won’t just affect public servants. Tourists who attend the attractions within the Parliamentary triangle will have to pay as well. Not to mention students and other low income earners (ie: the disabled) who utilise the National Library. Would the recent exhibition at the National Gallery have been such a success if pay parking was operating? I know first hand about such a tax on tourism. I used to visit Bondi Beach every few weeks back in the early 1990s but I stopped going altogether because every time I returned to my car I’d find the inevitable souvenir of Sydney – a parking ticket under the wiper. Public transport within the Parliamentary triangle is very poor so that really isn’t an option. You would think the powers that be would be doing all they can to attract tourists and look after low income earners but I guess the lure of all that extra revenue proved too tempting in the end.

Err, no it doesn’t apply to tourists, students and the like unless somehow they’ve become employees of those institutions. FBT applies to benefits provided by employers to employees (and certain associates like close family members). The FBT liability is on the employer who provides the benefits – they may however elect to recoup the cost from the employees who benefit.

Someone doesn’t understand FBT

Shhh, dtc! Do you know how many highly paid public servants will be out of a job if that secret gets out?

How about the dirt bog or “Siberia” as some call it around PM&C? …is mud the fridge benefit?

My partner and I already carpool, so busing it now means double ticket costs, not cost effective when we add it up. How will the ACT Govt justify paid parking in Siberia? Try finding a supermarket, a dry cleaners, chemist or a medicare here … there is no services in Barton! Walking to Kingston or Manuka is at least 45 minutes to 1 hour roundtrip depending on speed and needs (if I get a chance to leave at lunchtime) from where I am. It’s hardly convenient. If I worked in Civic at least I would have a choice of services before, during and after work.

So one part of the Commonwealth is paying tax to another part of the Commonwealth, in order for the second part of the Commonwealth to have money to fund the first part of the Commonwealth that gave it the money in the first place?

Have I got that right?

Is this really going to be an issue? Cant Finance do some magic tricks and hand the money straight back or do a book keeping exercise so the money never actually leaves?

thanks, fixed.

Johnboy’s a few years behind. Agriculture has been in Civic for years. The Edmund Barton Building now houses the AFP.

Much as I appreciate the wisdom each of you demonstrate in all of your comments – I’m not coming near any of you if ever I need to seek legal or taxation advice.

Clown Killer12:04 pm 03 Aug 10

If you read the act it’s clear that it applies to everyone.

I believe that for that part of the Act to apply you’d have to show that the employer – in this case the specific department (not the Commonwealth public service in general) provided the parking free of charge, which I dont think is the case. For instance the carpark beween the John Gorton Building and Kings Avenue may be used by Dept. of Finance and Dept. of Environment employees but the car park doesnt belong to those departments so technically they’re not providing the parking – it just happens to be next to their building.

John Moulis said :

It won’t just affect public servants. Tourists who attend the attractions within the Parliamentary triangle will have to pay as well. Not to mention students and other low income earners (ie: the disabled) who utilise the National Library. Would the recent exhibition at the National Gallery have been such a success if pay parking was operating? I know first hand about such a tax on tourism. I used to visit Bondi Beach every few weeks back in the early 1990s but I stopped going altogether because every time I returned to my car I’d find the inevitable souvenir of Sydney – a parking ticket under the wiper. Public transport within the Parliamentary triangle is very poor so that really isn’t an option. You would think the powers that be would be doing all they can to attract tourists and look after low income earners but I guess the lure of all that extra revenue proved too tempting in the end.

There’s no parking at the NLA and around that area now anyway – because it’s free parking, all the spots are taken up by office workers.

It’s inevitable that the area will become pay parking. Hopefully this will also drive demand for public transport.

The argument that pay parking will ‘damage tourism’ is spurious. Visit the attractions in Sydney and see how much free parking there is. Bondi Beach is hardly empty, despite your refusal to attend.

p1 said :

Is this FBT debt something that the employer has to pay? And is it paid for each employee, or only those who actually part for free on the employers land, thus gaining the fringe benefit of working there?

It’s on the employer. They can pay per space or per employee (if you only have 10 spaces you don’t have to pay for 500 employees, or vice versa), or do a survey to determine usage.

Given the “common carpark” problem and the administration costs of managing a parking system, parking meters are the obvious answer.

John Moulis said :

Would the recent exhibition at the National Gallery have been such a success if pay parking was operating?

I hear that the Portrait Gallery has made it so you need to validate your parking (for free) at the front desk in order to get out of the carpark, to stop public servants parking there.

It won’t just affect public servants. Tourists who attend the attractions within the Parliamentary triangle will have to pay as well. Not to mention students and other low income earners (ie: the disabled) who utilise the National Library. Would the recent exhibition at the National Gallery have been such a success if pay parking was operating? I know first hand about such a tax on tourism. I used to visit Bondi Beach every few weeks back in the early 1990s but I stopped going altogether because every time I returned to my car I’d find the inevitable souvenir of Sydney – a parking ticket under the wiper. Public transport within the Parliamentary triangle is very poor so that really isn’t an option. You would think the powers that be would be doing all they can to attract tourists and look after low income earners but I guess the lure of all that extra revenue proved too tempting in the end.

georgesgenitals11:26 am 03 Aug 10

It will be interesting to see how things are handled when a building has a common carpark (like mine does), and people park until the carpark is full.

Growling Ferret, that is not right. If you read the act it’s clear that it applies to everyone.

Growling Ferret said :

JB

I’m pretty sure the FBT only kicks on for the staff who are provided an allocated car park, not just normal plebs who are suffering the parking nightmare that is currently unfolding!

I think if it is a salary sacrifice thing, FBT does come into the mix. Will need a beancounter to confirm though…

Growling Ferret11:04 am 03 Aug 10

he ATO

‘A car parking fringe benefit may arise if you provide car parking to your employee and:

there is a commercial car parking station within a one kilometre radius of where the car is parked, and
that commercial car parking station charges a fee for all day parking that is more than the car parking threshold.
The car parking threshold is indexed in line with the consumer pricing index. It is announced each year in a taxation determination, usually published during April.

So for the Public Circus, it will effect SES, Exec Assistants, those who get special permits due to illness and disability, but not the general populace.

Growling Ferret10:51 am 03 Aug 10

JB

I’m pretty sure the FBT only kicks on for the staff who are provided an allocated car park, not just normal plebs who are suffering the parking nightmare that is currently unfolding!

Is this FBT debt something that the employer has to pay? And is it paid for each employee, or only those who actually part for free on the employers land, thus gaining the fringe benefit of working there?

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