1 December 2009

Filter Turns

| youami
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Now I have ranted on this topic previously but thought with the number of road-based posts cropping up recently I thought I would add a post to gauge what others see in this.

My gripe with ACT has always been the use of red arrows to prevent drivers turning right at all times day or night, even when there are considerable gaps in the flow of oncoming traffic.

According to the TAMS website, “…the ACT uses the same national standards to determine the use of arrow signals as other states in Australia.

The reason we have so many red arrows is because of safety, and basically stems from the high quality road system in the ACT. Many of our arterial roads are multi-lane with a speed limit of 80kph. Research clearly shows that the higher the speed of the oncoming traffic and the wider the road that has to be crossed, the more difficult it is for a right turning driver to choose a safe gap in oncoming traffic...”

Absolutely ridiculous! I think it is because the traffic signals are recycled from other states. But anyway my rant isn’t about using hand-me-downs. If safety and speed are the real issues, then why do those same intersections with red arrows allow traffic turning left onto the same road free to turn at any time? In fact, most intersections in ACT have a left-turn slip lane and contradict national standards.
Secondly, let me give you an example of why the excuse of safety and speed is nonsense. Canberra Av and Nyrang St intersection has lights with red arrows. Less than 50m to the west the intersection Canberra Av and Dalby St has no lights but the same road conditions (ie. side street turning onto road with 80km/hour limit) apply. In fact, you could argue Dalby St is more dangerous due to the rise of Canberra Av from Hume Pl (roundabout) that limits view of oncoming traffic moreso than the intersection with lights. I just think it is part of the nanny-state and inconsistency with road design and possibly the fact that ACT is relatively immature when it comes to major road construction and traffic volumes. Do others agree? I have also seen many intersections where they have installed red arrows where they previously had none or installed red arrows at intersections as they upgrade them.

And don’t forget that stopping a major road for one car to turn right costs money, time and fuel. Spread the cost of waiting unnecessarily for 30 seconds by 300,000 cars etc etc. btw, in case someone runs me down, I do support safety and traffic management, so wherever the intersections do warrant red arrows I don’t see a problem.

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bd84 said :

But given the Government can’t even co-ordinate sets of lights, not much chance of that happening anytime soon.

IME a lot of them seem to be setup such that you will average a certain speed (approximately the speed limit) through a section. A good example of this is along Hindmarsh Dr. between the Canberra Hospital lights and Dalrymple St. If you go faster than 80km/h over the hill, you just end up waiting a commensurate amount of time at the Dalrymple St. traffic lights. I see this every morning when I am in Canberra in my commute.

So yes, if you exceed the posted speed limit everywhere you should expect to wait at lights a lot.

Roadworks will wreak havoc with such careful design, of course.

youami said :

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Okay, whether or not this is true (unlikely, I’ve seen far more shiny new LED signals go up than I have new incandescent signals), are you implying that the phasing design of signals in Canberra is limited by what’s available on the scrap pile?

If so… I don’t know what to say. Really I don’t…

Yes I am! But that is not the reason for my rant. I have seen a lot of new LED lights going up so accept ACT buy them new, but they usually only replace the overhang ones, and yes I have also seen some intersections where the whole lot have been replaced with LED. But an example of an intersection where incandescant lights have been replaced with ‘pre-owned’ incandescant lights, Kings Av and State Circle. They also removed the ability to turn right on green without an arrow to a one-direction only with arrow.

JC said :

We do not use secondhand signals and never have. Just because they look the same as somewhere else doesn’t mean we have brought them second hand. Also if you look around you will see heaps of shiny new LED signals in Canberra too.

As for your original whinge sure there are places where it would be great to be able to turn at any time, but the argument used as to why we have the arrows seems quite sensible. We are very fortunate that our lights are demand responsive, so outside of peak ours the wait to turn is generally minimal.

Of course, I was being purely speculative re: second-hand, just doing my bit to stir the pot; but where did the Clunies Ross St lights come from? They were not new. But, anyway why do we as mature and responsibile drives need to wait outside of peak hours when discretion should prevail? How many accidents have really occured in ACT when vehicles cross traffic (ie. side-ons)? I bet not as often as head-ons or rear-enders. And as many have suggested already, it is not about speed or safety because intersections at 60km or 70km or 80km have red arrows. Intersections that cross one lane or two lanes or three lanes have red arrows. It is the non-standard standard! And you are right in that the wait is “generally” minimal because some intersections (especially around Parkes and Cotter Rd as mentioned by GnT) are phased at 11pm the same as peak hour.

But driver discretion works in other cities around the world – even cities that actually have traffic! Maybe driver education is the answer. Shame that we are all forced not to think for ourselves. As an ex-NSW Sydney driver I shudder to think about the poor ACT drivers and why they get a bad wrap when they travel interstate… “OMG, there is no arrow, what do I do!”

Is anyone nerdy enough to know any stats on the ratio of traffic signals to vehicles to population? I am sure it has to be higher than interstate.

How many accidents caused by not giving way? Lots. They don’t go putting up the traffic lights just for the fun of it, unless your the moron who put the lights up on Lady Denman Dr for cyclists to cross instead of them waiting for 30 seconds for cars to pass by. The ones further on at the off ramp of Parkes Way were put up for all the rear enders and for the t-bones at that intersection. Yes I think a lot of traffic lights could be modified phasing in non-peak hours or turned off (flashing orange) late at night. But given the Government can’t even co-ordinate sets of lights, not much chance of that happening anytime soon.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Okay, whether or not this is true (unlikely, I’ve seen far more shiny new LED signals go up than I have new incandescent signals), are you implying that the phasing design of signals in Canberra is limited by what’s available on the scrap pile?

If so… I don’t know what to say. Really I don’t…

Yes I am! But that is not the reason for my rant. I have seen a lot of new LED lights going up so accept ACT buy them new, but they usually only replace the overhang ones, and yes I have also seen some intersections where the whole lot have been replaced with LED. But an example of an intersection where incandescant lights have been replaced with ‘pre-owned’ incandescant lights, Kings Av and State Circle. They also removed the ability to turn right on green without an arrow to a one-direction only with arrow.

JC said :

We do not use secondhand signals and never have. Just because they look the same as somewhere else doesn’t mean we have brought them second hand. Also if you look around you will see heaps of shiny new LED signals in Canberra too.

As for your original whinge sure there are places where it would be great to be able to turn at any time, but the argument used as to why we have the arrows seems quite sensible. We are very fortunate that our lights are demand responsive, so outside of peak ours the wait to turn is generally minimal.

Of course, I was being purely speculative re: second-hand, just doing my bit to stir the pot; but where did the Clunies Ross St lights come from? They were not new. But, anyway why do we as mature and responsibile drives need to wait outside of peak hours when discretion should prevail? How many accidents have really occured in ACT when vehicles cross traffic (ie. side-ons)? I bet not as often as head-ons or rear-enders. And as many have suggested already, it is not about speed or safety because intersections at 60km or 70km or 80km have red arrows. Intersections that cross one lane or two lanes or three lanes have red arrows. It is the non-standard standard! And you are right in that the wait is “generally” minimal because some intersections (especially around Parkes and Cotter Rd as mentioned by GnT) are phased at 11pm the same as peak hour.

But driver discretion works in other cities around the world – even cities that actually have traffic! Maybe driver education is the answer. Shame that we are all forced not to think for ourselves. As an ex-NSW Sydney driver I shudder to think about the poor ACT drivers and why they get a bad wrap when they travel interstate… “OMG, there is no arrow, what do I do!”

Is anyone nerdy enough to know any stats on the ratio of traffic signals to vehicles to population? I am sure it has to be higher than interstate.

Postalgeek said :

I don’t have a problem with red arrows for right turns. What I would like to see more of is turn-left-anytime-with-care stop signs and/or slip lanes. I have no idea why, for example, they don’t allow vehicles to turn left with care off Hindmarsh Drive onto Darymple St.

Funny you should ask that because once upon a time there was a turn left with care sign at that intersection. Then one day years back, a window washer set up operations at the intersection and within days the sign had disappeared thus insuring that even people turning onto Darymple had to stop on a red signal.

Mordd, the issue is NOT traffic, or congestion. The issues with red arrows (ie, waiting to turn even though no-one is coming the other way) occur precisely because there is such little traffic – if there was lots of traffic of course we wouldn’t have a problem waiting for a green arrow over waiting for a gap.

If the lights truly are “demand responsive” then outside of peak hours the arrows should be switched off entirely and the resposibility to find a safe gap in traffic given to the driver.

If driving skills in Canberra are so poor that we can’t be trusted to turn safely when there are next to no cars on the road, then we have a lot more problems. I don’t believe it.

In my opinion the major problem is the fact that the majority of drivers dont understand how traffic flows in general work, more specifically that a slightly slower maximum speed nearly always results in smoother flowing traffic, ie: less stop starts. Examples are some of the 80km’h roads we have that many canberrans would prefer to be 100kmh limit, and that you will frequently find motorists speeding on regardless because they are so used to good roads they feel they know better and can ignore the designated speed limits. Maybe the OP in this article has a point, maybe they don’t, but canberrans are extremely over-priveledged when it comes to roads here already, compared to sitting in traffic on parramatta road for hours on end each day in Sydney for example, drivers here have nothing to complain about really.

Fact is if you want to ease congestion in this city the #1 best way to do that would be Transit lanes across all of the major multi-lane roads in this city. Catch the bus from any major interchange to another in morning or evening peak times, and count the number of cars that only have 1 person in them compared to 2 people or more, you will be hard pressed to spot even 1 out of every 5 cars with more than 1 person in it. Introduce even T2 transit lanes (buses, taxis, 2 or more people in car) and it would be a great start, even better would be to make it T3 only and then have the local government help organise car pooling like you have in places like Canada for example. This would have a much larger impact on traffic, especially during the most congested times, more than any other measures that could be taken, apart from drastically boosting public transport, which should also be done.

sloppery said :

Turning right across traffic without a green arrow wouldn’t be a problem if the standard of driver skills were actually improved.

Absolutely correct. The number one reason why we see the increase in signalised right hand turns is that people never understand the concept of “give way” or get frustrated waiting and pull out in front of oncoming trafic causing an accident. As the number of accidents at the intersections with no signals increases, the database at Roads ACT goes crazy and to prevent most morons causing accidents, they put up traffic lights or turning signals. This action causes the accident count at that intersection to decrease.

Apparently they can’t legislate agaist idiots on our roads, so until then you get signalised turning signals.

Agree with the OP. Most Canberra roads are empty after dark. And yes, it isn’t much time in the grand scheme of things. But it is a waste of petrol idling for 30 secs and then accelerating from a stop. Plus the (only) car that is coming in the other direction that also now has to stop. I don’t think it would be a good idea at major intersections eg Hindmarsh and Yamba, surely it is ok at smaller intersections. But surely if you can’t safely turn right on a near empty intersection, you would also have problems on many other normal driving situations.

Nice rant.

The problem is we are now addicted to these right turn arrows and wouldn’t be able to get rid of them without a lot of accidents. Can you imagine Canberra drivers actually giving way to pedestrians when turning right, for example?

Traffic light synchronisation isn’t done by any secondhand equipment. Roads ACT actually use the same system as Sydney, which I am led to believe is the most popular if not the only traffic synchronisation system in the southern hemisphere. The system was in part developed by Sydney RTA and is known as SCATS. If you are curious a quick Google will dig up more information, or you can take a look at: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/trafficreports/scats/index.html or http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/australia_innovates/?behaviour=view_article&Section_id=1080&article_id=10087

My theory on why it doesn’t work as well in Canberra as other areas if that was have many less lights and it doesn’t scale downwards well. But that is just my theory…

georgesgenitals6:31 pm 01 Dec 09

niftydog said :

sloppery said :

Continually forcing traffic to move more slowly is not solving the problem of ever increasing traffic congestion.

Slowing trip times might encourage more people to seek alternatives like cycling or public transport, or even just altering their work hours to avoid the rush. I believe this is the Government’s approach, but they’d never admit to that in a pink fit.

I hear your point, but for like me who car pool with family, it’s not very helpful.

We do not use secondhand signals and never have. Just because they look the same as somewhere else doesn’t mean we have brought them second hand. Also if you look around you will see heaps of shiny new LED signals in Canberra too.

As for your original whinge sure there are places where it would be great to be able to turn at any time, but the argument used as to why we have the arrows seems quite sensible. We are very fortunate that our lights are demand responsive, so outside of peak ours the wait to turn is generally minimal.

sloppery said :

Continually forcing traffic to move more slowly is not solving the problem of ever increasing traffic congestion.

Slowing trip times might encourage more people to seek alternatives like cycling or public transport, or even just altering their work hours to avoid the rush. I believe this is the Government’s approach, but they’d never admit to that in a pink fit.

Turning right across traffic without a green arrow wouldn’t be a problem if the standard of driver skills were actually improved.

I don’t have a problem with red arrows for right turns. What I would like to see more of is turn-left-anytime-with-care stop signs and/or slip lanes. I have no idea why, for example, they don’t allow vehicles to turn left with care off Hindmarsh Drive onto Darymple St.

Thoroughly Smashed2:39 pm 01 Dec 09

youami said :

Sydney is changing a lot of lights to all LED. Only a few in Canberra are like that. A case in point for recycling are the signals at Clunies Ross St and the exit off Parkes Way. They were installed ‘new’ to support the GDE roadworks but are simply recycled from somewhere. And I don’t recall too many intersections where lights are removed so unless they have stockpile of spare signals, yes ACT are getting hand-me-downs.

Okay, whether or not this is true (unlikely, I’ve seen far more shiny new LED signals go up than I have new incandescent signals), are you implying that the phasing design of signals in Canberra is limited by what’s available on the scrap pile?

If so… I don’t know what to say. Really I don’t…

youami said :

I have no evidence other than my suspicions and observations.

That’s pretty much standard for these parts.

This sort of rigorous traffic control in Canberra has become more necessary during the Stanhope era because drivers are increasingly reducing the degree of seriousness that they treat the privilage of driving a motor vehicle. In Canberra it doesn’t matter if you break the road rules because there are no consequences for doing so. The only thing Canberra drivers need to do is slow down when passing those speed cameras – thats it. Road rules are no longer enforced which has rendered them pretty much useless. This lazy, ignorant, half hearted speed oriented attitude to road safety by our ACT Government has resulted in this situation.

The flow on effect of this is that drivers don’t concentrate, anticipate, or use other skills that they should have been taught when getting their license – why bother?, the “it wont happen to me attitude prevails”. The likelyhood of someone turning infront of oncoming traffic has therefore increased resulting in the increased usage of red filter arrows.

Grail said :

My advice would be to learn some patience, stop tailgating, and start your trip with enough time to get to your destination before you need to be there. Speeding and running red lights will not really save you that much time. Starting the trip with adequate time to spare means you get to your destination more relaxed, affords everyone else on the road a more relaxed trip, and leaves you with more chance of being alive at the conclusion of your voyage.

Continually forcing traffic to move more slowly is not solving the problem of ever increasing traffic congestion.

Smarter ideas are needed (as is better driver skills training).

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Are you actually suggesting that we use second hand signal hardware from interstate?

Yes I am. I have no evidence other than my suspicions and observations. Many of the older lights appear to be the same as Melbourne signals, ie. without a white border, with what appears to be limited variation/options in phasing. But when they are replaced (eg. around Parkes) the lights don’t appear new looking, but have a white border like those in Sydney. Sydney is changing a lot of lights to all LED. Only a few in Canberra are like that. A case in point for recycling are the signals at Clunies Ross St and the exit off Parkes Way. They were installed ‘new’ to support the GDE roadworks but are simply recycled from somewhere. And I don’t recall too many intersections where lights are removed so unless they have stockpile of spare signals, yes ACT are getting hand-me-downs.

barking toad said :

If you search this site, you’ll find plenty of threads about where to get a cup of coffee in Canberra.

They’re almost as exciting as this one

🙂

But you still read it! And I bet you read it with a coffee in your hand 🙂

Grail said :

Traffic turning left onto a busy road only has one lane to worry about, and you get to see all the cars in that lane as they approach.

Traffic turning right across a busy road has two or three lanes of traffic to worry about, some lanes of which might be obscured by trucks, busses or SUVs. You’ll also find that the traffic volume on Nyrang Street is much higher than Dalby Street, mainly due to Nyrang Street actually crossing Canberra Avenue between Fyshwick and Narrabundah.

Low volume T intersection vs high volume cross-intersection. I makes sense when you think about it.

Stopping a major road in order to let one car turn across the traffic is necessary in order to let the one car cross without waiting an hour for a gap in the traffic.

My advice would be to learn some patience, stop tailgating, and start your trip with enough time to get to your destination before you need to be there. Speeding and running red lights will not really save you that much time. Starting the trip with adequate time to spare means you get to your destination more relaxed, affords everyone else on the road a more relaxed trip, and leaves you with more chance of being alive at the conclusion of your voyage.

You have missed my point. Daley St still has vehicles crossing Canberra Av. Granted, it is a T-intersection but it does give discretion to the driver crossing three lanes of traffic at 80km/hour just past a crest. Someone has posted the dangers of being too controlled when numpty ACT-drivers go interstate. In fact, if you go to Queanbeyan you will see that they have red arrows during peak but turn them off in off-peak; some intersections in Queanbeyan adopt the system mentioned in comment #3.

Oh and just because I am ranting on this topic, why does that make me a tailgater? Why does that make me not relaxed? Why do you think I am not patient? You have to stop with the stereotype for anyone complaining. I am referring to innefficencies, poor design, and false statements about speed and safety, as opposed to wanting to get somewhere faster. How many speeding tickets have you had or accidents? In my 18-odd years of driving I have had no speeding tickets and just 1 accident many many years ago!

Now, I need a better hobby than light-spotting… 🙂

Agree completely with wanting to turn off the red arrows outside of peak hour. But the arrow fun extends beyond turning right across traffic, they can’t even get left turn arrows correct!

My current favourite traffic light setup is where Gozzard St crosses Hibberson St in Gungahlin. Here if you are turning left off Gozzard onto Hibberson (towards Big W centre) you get a green light, but the person in front of you going straight has a red light.

Same intersection, separate issue. This is a tiny intersection with only a small amount of traffic and where with each light change only one direction of traffic gets to move. So why not allow left turns on red after stopping! Constant source of annoyance.

i am amazed at some of the ‘turn left when you want’ intersections at which seeing what is coming from the right is difficult (like turning from adjacent glebe park onto corranderk) yet not having them at other intersections where vision is long and traffic mostly light… and don’t start me on the appalling synching (or otherwise) of lights on major arterial routes…

there is little commonsense or ability in canberra’s traffic planners.

Grail said :

Stopping a major road in order to let one car turn across the traffic is necessary in order to let the one car cross without waiting an hour for a gap in the traffic.

But the point is these intersections often occur where there is not a lot of traffic to stop. In fact, in the example I stated earlier, I usually pull up and can turn immediately if it were not for the red arrow. I never have to wait an hour (or even anything approaching your hyperbole) for a gap in the traffic.

Stopping a major road in order to let one car turn across the traffic is unnecessary when the one car could easily find a sufficient gap in the traffic without holding up anyone else.

One that really annoys me is that huge round about in woden. theres already some even ground and could be made into an overpass etc. or at the very least there a slip lane for both south going and north going for only buses and taxi’s it should be two lanes or at least allow cars to use it too. this is always backed up into woden when it doesnt have to be.
Or is it that we all love our roundabouts soo much?

You don’t mention another problem with most intersections other than speed or safety: Idiot drivers.

Inexperienced, impatient or stupid drivers have the amazing ability to turn a normal, safe intersection into a black spot. It only takes a few drivers too lazy to obey simple traffic rules to cause a few accidents and next thing you know the nanny state reacts to complaints.

As for being trusted to judge a gap in the traffic…………….apply that same trust to the idiot drivers and there’ll be even more carnage on the road.

Traffic turning left onto a busy road only has one lane to worry about, and you get to see all the cars in that lane as they approach.

Traffic turning right across a busy road has two or three lanes of traffic to worry about, some lanes of which might be obscured by trucks, busses or SUVs. You’ll also find that the traffic volume on Nyrang Street is much higher than Dalby Street, mainly due to Nyrang Street actually crossing Canberra Avenue between Fyshwick and Narrabundah.

Low volume T intersection vs high volume cross-intersection. I makes sense when you think about it.

Stopping a major road in order to let one car turn across the traffic is necessary in order to let the one car cross without waiting an hour for a gap in the traffic.

My advice would be to learn some patience, stop tailgating, and start your trip with enough time to get to your destination before you need to be there. Speeding and running red lights will not really save you that much time. Starting the trip with adequate time to spare means you get to your destination more relaxed, affords everyone else on the road a more relaxed trip, and leaves you with more chance of being alive at the conclusion of your voyage.

Thoroughly Smashed10:26 am 01 Dec 09

Are you actually suggesting that we use second hand signal hardware from interstate?

Must be terrible to be in such a rush to get everywhere. Maybe leave a bit earlier to allow for the red arrow?

I think the arrows are there because most numpty Canberra drivers do not understand how to cross an intersection without them.

My gripe is less specific – traffic lights are technological dinosaurs. In this day and age when astounding technology touches every part of our lives, why do we have to put up with such primitive and inflexible beasts?

Surely fuel efficiency is the more important issue here. We don’t need anything else to feed the notion that driving like a lunatic is justified by saving 20 seconds on the journey home!

barking toad9:24 am 01 Dec 09

If you search this site, you’ll find plenty of threads about where to get a cup of coffee in Canberra.

They’re almost as exciting as this one 🙂

GnT said :

Can we have the traffic lights on peak hour settings, then off-peak settings where there is a green light but no arrow?

In Sydney there seems to be a common setup where just the big round green is lit, meaning you can turn right if it is safe, BUT if right-turning traffic seems to be held up for too long, traffic in the opposite direction is stopped and a green arrow is lit as well.

Seems to work well, BUT it does mean that non-turning traffic (especially Sydney noobs who haven’t developed optimal tactics yet) is frequently held up by traffic waiting to turn right.

All in all I don’t think it is a superior solution to that of Canberra. Just different, that’s all

ChrisinTurner8:40 am 01 Dec 09

Yet there are many places where filter right-hand turns are not allowed and the oncoming traffic is 50-60 km/hr. The Australian standards would allow such turns but the ACT is not. When ACT people go interstate they are so used to having right-turn arrows that they cause bad accidents. Perhaps it is just part of a policy of discouraging the use of motor vehicles.

Yes yes yes!!! I have a gripe with this too. The one that bugs me the most is turning right from Cotter Road onto the Tuggereanong Parkway. I am usually at this intersection in the evening when there is next to no-one coming the other way, and I have to wait for ages to turn. Chances are, by the time I get my green arrow a car has come along and is forced to stop so I can drive across. How ridiculous! If I could be trusted to judge a gap in the traffic then I could scoot across and no-one else would have to stop for me.

Can we have the traffic lights on peak hour settings, then off-peak settings where there is a green light but no arrow?

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