Florey man gets stabby whilst in psycosis

Until you pinko’s start bringing something other than your stupid lentils to the table, your going to get nothing substantial from me.

Oh well done Maelinar. Really. Lived right up to my expectations.

However ill bite, what are these realistic solutions you are talking about? (in case you say more jail time we have already covered that, so your idea will have to be something else). – as you are just as capable of using the search function on this site as I am, do not consider me as preventing you from using it.

Consider this your fishing lesson. I’m with imhotep for following statements.

Ok one of our disagreements in thinking this situation is black and white. But I dont think that can be resolved. But as had already been mentioned in this post, there are a lot of unknowns about this situation.

The un rehabilitatable is where jail is warranted. Nut bar serial killers and the like, but as has also been discussed in this post, perhaps they should be in a mental institution instead of a prison.

It seems that people want this man to go to jail for vengence reasons, not for the common good or to help the victim. Im thinking that maybe this judge has seen past vengence and is doing what is most likely to benefit the community. Why do you think Penfold went for a leniant sentence?

It is always dangerous to find simple solutions to complex problems. MY point is that this situation IS black and white.

A woman stabbing an abusive husband. That is complex.

A man stabbing a woman in her home (in front of her daughter), that is not complex. If you don’t go to jail for that TAB, in what circumstance do you think jail is warranted?

Penfold is developing early form for (in my view) leniency -witness the slap on the wrist for rape in an earlier case. I think she is out of touch -or doesn’t care – with public expectations on this issue.

.

Yes look for altenatives. This being a forum i thought perhaps people could discuss what these alternatives may be… why is that wrong?

Ill take your ignoring of my point being that this issue is not as black and white as we may like it to be as a sign that you agree? And you ignoring my request for information means that you do not know? And you ignoring my reasons why locking people up doesn’t work as a sign you agree?

Leniant sentences Imhotep, thats my suggestion. Maybe there is a reason judges are going for them? Other suggestions have been forced re habilitation, paid work where the money goes to the victim as a form of recompense. Maybe all these are wrong, but we need to keep looking.

So…your alternative to locking people up (for violent crime) is to ‘look for an alternatives’ to locking people up. Right. That’s clear and decisive!

Let us know when you come up with something. Seeya!

Imhotep: Hello.

What i said was: ‘imhotep: I assume i am supposed to ignore the first sentences little jab? if not then here is my equally insightful and intelligent response: No, you’re a dick.’ – it was supposed to demonstrate how petty insults all really come down pointless ‘you’re a dick’, ‘no, you’re a dick’ childishness. Clearly that wasn’t apparent enough. I Apologise.

Yes i do have a message, and it was previously written. In a comment to you actually. Im sorry my comments are too long for you. I did sum it up back then so ill cut and paste the sum up for you: (its 106 words, i hope thats not too much for you)

‘Locking every criminal up for life is not an option because that would make us the criminals,

Locking people up for mid term isn’t an option because we will only be creating more dangerous people when they finally do get out,

and
Looking for an alternative to locking people up isnt an option because other people get upset they criminals aren’t being punished enough.

I can see how there is some confusion on the issue. To me though the third option, upsetting other people seems like something that needs to be thought about, because it seems to have the best possible chance of a good outcome.’

I hope that is clear enough. (my point is that this is not as black and white as we may like it to be.)

At risk of this comment being too long and you not reading this far my first comments were to gather information: Does canberra have a higher crime rate than places who justice system deals out harsher penalties?

Tap, I can’t believe you are still posting on this thread and yet you have not stated a strong opinion on the OP.

tap said :

I expect petty insults, avoidance of points, generalisations…

Petty insults? You called me a dick 3 times.

Generalisations? This is basically a message board, yet you don’t appear to have a message. Maybe some people are interested in your stream-of-consciousness navel gazing but I’m not.

If you stab someone, in my opinion, you should be punished for it. Can you state your view on the matter in less than 200 words?

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Maelinar, i expect not much from you. I expect petty insults, avoidance of points, generalisations and a staggering amount of arrogance. You come through everytime. However ill bite, what are these realistic solutions you are talking about? (in case you say more jail time we have already covered that, so your idea will have to be something else).

Minime: Yeah she is no ones favourite, thats for sure.

@Tap and indirectly also @WMD – what do you expect ? You come here with your pinko raving attitudes that ‘something’ must be done, yet stamp on any realistic avenues that are suggested because they are too ‘draconian’ or suchlike.

We’ve covered this all before.

Until you pinko’s start bringing something other than your stupid lentils to the table, your going to get nothing substantial from me.

Oh and Thumper, quit it with the fatherly advice, its irrelevant, yet it is becoming a habit.

Thumper, way back up there you mentioned Ms Amber Weston…. quote at court…not IN court or part of the hearings, by her: “The silly old f***in’ bitch shouldn’t have got in the way”. Nice lady. Absolutely no remorse. Ever. And not ever even a little bit of acceptance of her part in the other lady’s death. She’s a wate of breath. Not a skerick of a hope of rehabilitation. Why? In her value system, others have no value. Hope there are no speelling mistakes to divert you folk from the point here.

Well, I watched the first mad max and I remember it being cool.

Anyone up for continuing the argument?

DMD, it seems almost everyone on here is the same, they ignore any valid points raised against them and use a spelling mistake or something equally petty to start a personal argument. The difference with this post is that Maelinar never even said anything remotely worthwhile. He made a joke (i spose it was a joke) about something i said and a movie. I treated it with the contempt it deserved. He took that to mean i didnt get it. He must be one of those people who keep repeating jokes until somebody either politely laughs, or less politely tells them to shut up, we get it, its just not funny.

Tap, you must learn the ways of the Maelinar to defeat him. Should take you two seconds. Where’s his credibility now?

Well… there goes the discussion. Awesome.

Can Superman outrun the Flash?

*round of appluase for Maelinar* you talked about a movie!! thats great!

However in my previous comment i said that i knew this, it has nothing to do with what we … were… discussing. None of your comments have. And i was right, you were keen on starting a argument.

Mad Max couldn’t get 50 metres from his car without being beaten up. Without the car, Mad Max is worthless (insert fuel constrained economy anybody ?). Snake improvises.

Snake also sucks. Mad Max would kick his sorry arse.

Would being unable to be rehabilitated from a drug addiction count as a mental disorder? If so, I’m in favour of opening up mental institutions, but only, and I mean only, for people who really cannot function in society without hurting someone else.

Maelinar, Escape from L.A. sucked. No surprise if Escape from N.Y. sucks equally.

OK, for you, here’s a timeline.

Tap: Special G: Your comment was worthless. ~that is the only way that will make the future safer.

Mælinar: The only way to make the future safer is to send in Snake Plissken.

Tap: Ok Maelinar, you work on that. Attaboy.

Mælinar: Sends IMDB reference for when next Snake Plissken movie is going to be released (2009).

Want a round of applause ? actually, you can start clapping, happyman.

I get it, a guy from a movie, i figured as much when i was replying to you the first time. What do you want? a round of applause? To be told you’re clever or something? It doesn’t have anything to do with anything Maelinar. None of your comments in this post have.

You clicked the link yet, mr needs to interpret my post ?

I am eagerly awaiting 2009 if that gives it away any more…

I noticed my spelling mistake, there is no need to bring it up.

In fact maelinar, have a look at all your comments in this post. All of them had nothing to do with anything. And now you seem all keen to get into an online argument. Bravo, you really are keeping the standrads of this site right up there.

Truly you feeling the need to say go ahead and cry to me is far and above me bring up your lordliness… what does your post about me have to do with anything? Hold yourself to the same standards as everyone else.

You’ve had sufficient time to attack Evil and Snahons for their similar comments waaay up the thread – feel free to look like an even bigger dweeb by attacking me.

Truly, I am a lord – really it is not such a big deal, its just a title, and they’ve existed for several hundred years now, however why you feel the need to bring it into the conversation is beyond me.

@Tap – Go ahead, cry, we all understand your pain.

Yeah why not? It seems to me anything and everything should be looked into at this point.

Maelinar: Erm cheers yeah, ill do that buddy. Great point and well made. I thought it was inspired in its creation, earth shaking in its delivery, and far reaching in its consequences. Truly you are a lord, and all that lordliness was bestowed on me today. I am humbled.

Thumper: Half the people in prison should actually be in mental institutions? Thats not good…

Maelinar: Erm yeah sure ill do that buddy. Great point and well made. Really, I think it was inspired, truly majestic in its brilliance. Surely all your lordliness went into that pure gem.

On the topic of mentally troubled people among us and becoming agitated, in today’s media there’s a report that Brendan Nelson ahs called for national debate on re-opening mental institutions, saying that the current system just isn’t working. I’m inclined to agree with that, and at least a sensible dialogue can’t hurt.

I was working in public contact when they bagan sending these folk out into the world, saying that their drugs would control their behaviour.
Well, that’s true, IF THEY TAKE THEIR DRUGS!. And often, they don’t.

Ok Maelinar, you work on that. Attaboy.

Maelinar: Righto then.

The only way to make the future safer is to send in Snake Plissken.

Special G: Your comment was worthless.

Thumper: If forced re habilitation is against basic human rights then im sure imprisonment is too. Which puts us in a bit of a conundrum all round…

The un rehabilitatable is a problem, and the point DMD and I have made, that sending them to prison is only going to make them worse, doesn’t make the problem any easier to solve.

But we do need to remember that is it in everyones interest that we do everything we can to attempt to rehabilitate, that is the only way that will make the future safer.

Deadmandrinking- you make some good points. Whats his criminal history like, rehabilitation prospects, past compliance with Court Orders etc etc. All this needs and is taken into account when sentencing. However as im sure we’ve all seen time and time again, repeat offenders that continually re-offend, continually breach court orders not once, twice, three times – often several (which may also include breaches for leaving rehabs) are still released from Court. Now what message does that send to criminals? The judge can wave his/her finger and say you breach this order and you’ll go to prison but the criminals knows that this is often a bluff.

Now ill bring this back to the topic at hand, yes i agree allow offenders to undertake rehab if their antecedents and the crime doesnt warrant immediate imprisonment (another debatable topic), allow them to undertake counselling and other treatments but dont let them make a mockery of the legal system and Courts. If they breach the Court Orders, there is a penalty that needs to be applied and exercised. “If you breach this court order……you will go to prison/weekend detention/fine/community service” and if they breach the Order, IMPOSE THE PENALTY.

If Mr Stabby breaches his Court Order, guaranteed the suspended sentence wont be imposed. Another thing, the psychologist stated his actions were a result of a drug induced psychotic episode. I didnt think that inebriation or being drug affected was a defence. But it certainly seems to be taken into account by the Judges and in effect works in the favour of the defendent. Its the default excuse for most criminals these days. In my opinion if your stupid enough to use drugs or become extremely intoxicated, than you do so at your own risk and are accepting that you may do something stupid or illegal, that you might not otherwise do. I have little sympathy for those that do and end up in trouble one way or another.

And for them (the unrehabilitatable), its Escape from Absalom time

DMD your current posts on this one are vaguely starting to make some sense without the normal rambling incoherent junk you spout. These ones actually seem thought out although you have summed up your point succinctly.. “I have no clue whatsoever.”

Well, ideally, a mix of the removal of the habitual behaviors and exposure to the results of their actions through community work and paying for compensation would improve how offenders see the world and choose to live their lives. I’m not going to stay in my hippee bubble and believe that’s what will actually happen in every case, of course. There will always be those who will be beyond any form of rehabilitation as we know it. What to do with them? I have no clue whatsoever. Prison will still make them worse no matter what.

Drug rehab doesn’t sound like a bad idea at all. Im fully aware that im about to sound like the opposition, but im not sure those ideas go far enough. What would it take to dissuade a criminal from keeping commiting crimes?

And that last bit isn’t just community service, mind you, it’s intended to enable the offender to take direct responsibility for his actions by earning money for the victim.

Forced rehabilitation would be a good start, i.e. having to attend a rehabilitation center as part of an agreement between the offender and the courts. Perhaps having the offender doing some paid work with the money being used to compensate the victim financially would help as well.

Dead Man Drinking, I agree. Do you have any idea what the reasonable alternatives should be?

Thumper, I think the problem is that if the sentencing is made solely to appease the natural need for vengeance by the victims (feelings which they’ve every right to have mind you, I’m not saying they don’t), it detracts from actual problem the courts are there to deal with – namely, the offender.

A good proportion of crime stems from habitual behavior reaching a point where it cannot be sustained whilst acceptably functioning in society. Many people do not realize when their habitual behavior is reaching this point. We don’t know if this particular offender had a criminal history. This could have been the first time taking speed and mushies (which is not that common) had ever presented a problem for this guy.

If that is the case, this is probably the best times for courts to consider softer measures than prison, especially so if there is no recorded violent history. It’s already been said a million times, but send a person to a violent place like prison and they will come out a violent person. It’s basic logic. Human’s adapt to their enviroments and function accordingly. That’s why Riot-act is filled with douchebags.

The only problem I see with the ACT courts is that they do not provide reasonable alternatives to prison. They rely on people to sort themselves out, pretty much, which is a bit stupid considering they’ve definitely had opportunities to sort themselves out beforehand. This pretty much leaves behind a choice between two evils – whether it’s better to let someone who is a potential risk back into society and allow an immediate possibility of something like this happening again, or whether to stow away the problem for 4-5 years then release it with an even higher possibility of this happening again.

Whichever one is chosen, it’s obvious something needs to change, and it’s got nothing to do with ‘tougher sentencing’.

imhotep: No, you’re a dick.

tap said :

Imhotep: Am I a little sensitive? In answer: No, you’re a dick.

Way to go tad. You appear to be capable of only two types of posts. Rambling, pointless verbosity or abuse. Goodbye.

Exactly Thumper, Does the judiciary remember this? Both in the sentencing of this guy, and say if this girl grows up to be a criminal, will they remember it then?

Imhotep: Am I a little sensitive? In answer: No, you’re a dick.

But seriously if you dont understand how this issue is extremely complex then i don’t think i will be able to learn anything from you, nor you from me, so we might as well not bother discussing this anymore.

tap said :

you’re a dick.

Woah, little sensitive there aren’t we Tad?

Look, my point is this. You can make this issue much more complex than it is; -‘must examine the statistics’…’complex issue’…see both sides etc. But we are talking about a situation where an individual stabs a woman and WALKS AWAY.

To me this is case is not a particularly complex issue, and no examination of statistics or weighing of complex issues will convince me that this is justified.

This particular crime is probably a bad example, as it (seemingly) was not a pre meditated crime and therefore the thought of punishment wouldn’t have stopped him, or encouraged him. But i agree with your point, something definately needs to happen, whether it be community service in mental wards or large fines or i dont know what.

You are probably right. But i was talking about the actual kid, the womans daughter.

imhotep: I assume i am supposed to ignore the first sentences little jab? if not then here is my equally insightful and intelligent response: No, you’re a dick.

What im trying to bring up here is why judges would go leniant on offenders. I am trying to understand possible reasons why judges choose to go down that line. Maybe there is some method to what they are doing. Again I do actually want to know what the statistics are before i will make any conclusions, my mind is not made up on this. I will say that my common sense does not follow the line of many people who go to jail re offend. There fore we should send people to jail. I guess for that logic to make sense you would need to add an extra line ‘for the rest of their natural lives.’ If we remove a offender from society, put them in a place where (apparently) violence is everywhere, not to mention rape only to take them out after say five or ten years then will that person be a more or less dangerous person to society than before they went in? It seems to be the answer would be more. We could stop that of course by neutering every person who commits a crime then locking them up and throwing away the key, but i hope we live in a society that is better than that: one that respects the rights of people who dont respect the rights of others.

So locking every criminal up for life is not an option because that would make us the criminals,

Locking people up for mid term isn’t an option because we will only be creating more dangerous people when they finally do get out,

and

Looking for an alternative to locking people up isnt an option because other people get upset they criminals aren’t being punished enough.

I can see how there is some confusion on the issue. To me though the third option, upsetting other people seems like something that needs to be thought about, because it seems to have the best possible chance of a good outcome.

As far as your example goes, no it doesn’t entirely please me, but neither would an example of a person sent to jail for 10 years coming out a cold blooded killer. Its a complex issue.

Thumper:
For me it comes down to what can be done to lessen crime in the future, and if lenient sentences will do that, then leniant sentences are the way to go.

Im sure your cop mate is right about some people not being able to be rehabilitated. It sucks but it seems some people are born into it (I wonder how the kid in the article is going to turn out?). I do doubt that there are very many people who are genetically criminal though…

PS dammit, my comment is too long again…

they’d probably survive the swim back to “the main land”… can’t have that 🙂

“Might I suggest we establish Van Diemans land as oz’s version of alcatraz….”

What about Spinnaker Island, on LBG?

Tap, I would tend to rely less on statistical information and a little more on common sense.

Jail time is not simply about rehabilitating the offender, nor just about deterring others from crime. It also removes offenders from society.

An example: An individual continues to re offend despite several jail terms (common enough). If you apply the ‘JAIL DOES NOT WORK’ logic then there is no point further incarcerating that individual no matter what he does. Would you be happy with that?

I wouldn’t.

Might I suggest we establish Van Diemans land as oz’s version of alcatraz and ship these criminals there. As a society, we have rules established as to what we consider acceptable behaviour with respect to living in or participating in this society. Violations such as stabbing people should warrant removal from society, since they have demonstrated a total lack of respect for such laws pertaining to this society (use of drugs and acts violence).

I guess you must think the issue is that the public wants a person punished if they commit a crime? Not that the public wants the law makers to be doing whatever it takes to lower crime, or to make Canberra as safe a place as it can be, because you think the two things are not related?

My answer is that I don’t know. It does seem like a very non premeditated crime so even if the punishment for one drugged up stab is 20 years i doubt it would have stopped the guy. As far as re offending goes im not sure what the stats are regarding how many people re offend after prison time, compared with how many re offend after good behaviour bonds, and what is the severity of the crime they commit if they do re offend. If I knew those answers then the punishment I would want is the one that is statistically most likely to rehabilitate him and hopefully make Canberra a little safer.

And the other question?

Do you think that if the person did get some prison time other potential drugged up stabbers might change their minds about the stabbings?

I don’t mean the death penalty i just mean places where this guy would have got years in prison, do those places have less crime (per capita) than canberra?

Perhaps it isn’t the issue at hand, but it must be related, if there is less amounts of crime in canberra compared to places with harsh sentences, then that might go a long way to explain why canberras justice system does what it does. Again I do mean ‘if’ here. I don’t know where canberra levels of crime are in comparison to other places, or even where they are at all…

Also what does the public expect for people who commit these crimes? What is considered a fair sentence for this type of crime?

For the record my knowledge of crime statistics is pretty much zero.

Keeping that in mind, can anyone tell me if in places that have harsher punishments for criminals, is there less crime?

He should be allowed continue his rehabilitation…. whatever.

He stabbed a woman in the stomach, she may well have died from the injuries. Fortunately she didnt. Is Justice P. willing to risk the lives of law-abiding citizens in the community so this offender MAY become rehabilitated or MAY stab another person, this time killing them. She obviously chose the former.

It seems the Judges in the ACT have lost faith many years ago in prisoners becoming rehabilitated in NSW Prisons, and some study supports this. However certain crimes and people need to be sent to prison if for nothing else than they are removed from the community for the communities protection. And there is increasing emphasise on rehabilitation in prisons throughout NSW and Aus. I just hope that with this new ‘human rights prison’in the ACT and rehabilitation efforts that are meant to take place within it, that Judges will exercise their right to incarcerate offenders like this.

Hilary Penfold’s judgment is very poor. This sort of decision will cost the community massively in the long run, as victims of ‘speed psychosis’ have to rack up VOC and healthcare costs – from crimes that would not have been committed if there was a strong deterrent.

The other part of the ‘Pugwash’ urban-legend was that the Cabin-boy was named Roger. So whenever he was mentioned in an episode he would be “Roger the Cabin-boy”. The actual characters name was, from memory, Tom.

Back on topic… so if the family of the lady who was stabbed decided to take matters into their own hands and give this prize tosser a beating, or even a mild stabbing to the abdomin (‘an eye for an eye’), do you think Penfold would be as lenient? Personally I think she’d throw the book at them. The ACT legal system is in a very sad state….

BTW: is it just me or does anybody else think of DangerMouse when they hear the name Penfold? Cor…

Closest was a character called Willy

@thumper

Urban myth…there was never a seaman staines in Pugwash

According to the CT, the prosecution was in agreement.

From the ABC; “In her sentencing remarks, Justice Hilary Penfold said the evidence suggested Staines irrational attack on the victim has operated as a serious wake-up call.”

A wake up call? He stabs a woman and does NO time for it. Why would that wake him up?

This is the same magistrate that gave another d*ckhead 8 months for rape.

What DO you have to do to get a serious jail term in the ACT?

Man I went to primary school with this guy, he was pretty screwed up then and it looks like things haven’t changed.

Mr Evil said :

So, according to Penfold, stabbing and rape are both okay?

F*ck Me!

I know what I’m doing this weekend!

Typical of the laughable standard of our justice system.

So, according to Penfold, stabbing and rape are both okay?

F*ck Me!

It must have been at the lower end of the stabbing someone in the abdomen spectrum. Disadvantaged childhood, drug habit, etc, etc

Ari said :

Perhaps he’ll join the navy to rehabilitate … at one stroke becoming Seaman Staines.

Now THAT is a hair trigger!

Perhaps he’ll join the navy to rehabilitate … at one stroke becoming Seaman Staines.

I imagine that it was a “cry for help” or somesuch. Maybe when there’s a jail nice and close, they’ll be more inclined to send peopel to it?