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Friday Morning Protests Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice

BanLiveExportAustralia 21 November 2011 41

abortion counter protest

The protest and counter-protest has continued!

As was previously highlighted by RiotACT on 26th August (link here) a protest and counter-protest has being occurring each Friday morning for the last few months outside of the ACT Health’s Alinga Street offices.

The issue on hand is whether a woman has the right to choose what happens with her own body and the sometimes-controversial topic of abortion.

On the one side we have a rogue group of Christians, the majority of whom are represented by older men who promote that abortions are murder and that abortions will cause breast cancer amongst other things which have been proven untrue (In 1997, the New England Journal of Medicine published the largest-scale study ever on this subject–with 1.5 million participants–which concluded that there is no independent link between abortion and breast cancer). They’re part of the 40 Days For Life “movement” who protest at 422+ sites throughout the world demonizing abortion and contraception.

On the other side we have the counter-protest. A group of women and men from a diverse group of backgrounds who promote the pro-life message, who share the message that a woman has the right to choose what occurs with her body and that contraception is safe. As of late this group has often out numbered the original protesters and has helped to educate the public about the truth.  This group is open to anyone and everyone, often having members of the public who walk by join in, and is largely supported by a variety of ACT women’s rights and services groups. A variety of signs are available for anyone who would like to join in can come along, pick up a sign and share the message.

If you’d like to come to the protest or to just see what’s going on it is each Friday morning from roughly 8 AM – 9 AM outside the ACT Health Building.


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41 Responses to Friday Morning Protests Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice
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Edumacated Edumacated 9:39 pm 21 Nov 11

Wow – what has happened to the RiotACT? This article clearly provides an opinion, a point of view and a request to seek people of similar persuasion and people attack it for its “bias”. Any article published on this site naturally has a bloody bias. Perhaps people need to provide their own opinion with some decent arguments rather than attack the original premise. But of course this just feeds the trolls.

VicePope VicePope 7:43 pm 21 Nov 11

FabForty. The case you raise is a terrible one, but rape is not part of any form of Christianity of which I am aware. The rape of a child is an even greater wrong. I am sure that, according to our lights, we pray and/or hope for the welfare of the poor girl.
In any case, there may be a solution. I discussed this kind of case, hypothetically, with a Catholic theologian some years ago. He said that he understood these cases happened, though thankfully far less often than the media would suggest. In his view, there may have been an argument for abortion in a case where there is a present and substantial danger to the life of the mother – his argument being based on analogy with the situation of a person with a gun and a single bullet, under attack from an armed, deranged and irrational person who is clearly intent on killing. While the mad person was not in any sense culpable, it would be morally acceptable to kill him.
This does not answer the dispute raised by the post, though. The demand there is for abortion in any circumstances, as a matter of choice or preference.

Thumper Thumper 7:29 pm 21 Nov 11

….. is beyond me.

Thumper Thumper 7:23 pm 21 Nov 11

This raises some really interesting questions. If we assume that the father has zero rights in choosing whether or not the baby is born, why should the father assume financial responsibilities for the child when born?

and

There is currently a nine year old in Mexico who is pregnant. Not only has she suffered being raped but now she must suffer a pregnancy which will probably kill her.

Stop being sensible, both of you!

How can anyone defend the plight of a woman who has been raped and is therefore pregnant

Classified Classified 7:05 pm 21 Nov 11

fabforty said :

There is currently a nine year old in Mexico who is pregnant. Not only has she suffered being raped but now she must suffer a pregnancy which will probably kill her.

Christianity is just great.

You’re blaming Christianity for someone being raped?

fabforty fabforty 6:15 pm 21 Nov 11

There is currently a nine year old in Mexico who is pregnant. Not only has she suffered being raped but now she must suffer a pregnancy which will probably kill her.

Christianity is just great.

Mumbucks Mumbucks 5:31 pm 21 Nov 11

Dilandach said :

Mumbucks said :

KaptnKaos said :

chewy14 said :

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.
On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.
So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

+1

Killing babies is never ok

Are you going to take care of ‘the’ baby? Going to pay for it? Adopt it? Contribute in any meaningful way?

Or just be part of the small rabble that offers an opinion but nothing else?

Actually I have done something to help some of those women who are in need whilst going through their pregnancy. Have you ever heard of Karinya house?

Watson Watson 4:18 pm 21 Nov 11

00davist said :

Angelina said :

(thank you whoever it was who decided to belittle fatherhood to nothing more than donation, YOU are as bad as any misogynist

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? Fatherhood and motherhood have little to do at all with how the child came to be. As any adopted child could tell you.

And I also demand the right to pee standing up.

Classified Classified 4:03 pm 21 Nov 11

Watson said :

Are you suggesting you think men should have a say in whether a woman carries a pregnancy to full term and gives birth to a child? Just because he donated his sperm? Noice… I sense some serious uterus-envy here.

This raises some really interesting questions. If we assume that the father has zero rights in choosing whether or not the baby is born, why should the father assume financial responsibilities for the child when born? To suggest that a father gets no say but is still responsible seems inequitable to me. But then how many men might say ‘abort it’ so they have no financial obligation?

Of course, we have to consider how we would resolve a dispute where one person says ‘keep it’, the other ‘abort it’ – not an easy answer.

At the end of the day, my opinion is that abortion should be legal, but used sparingly. Choosing not to have a baby for no reason other than ‘it’s inconvenient’ does not sit well with me.

Thoughts?

00davist 00davist 3:54 pm 21 Nov 11

Angelina said :

Dilandach said :

Mumbucks said :

KaptnKaos said :

chewy14 said :

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.
On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.
So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

+1

Killing babies is never ok

Are you going to take care of ‘the’ baby? Going to pay for it? Adopt it? Contribute in any meaningful way?

Or just be part of the small rabble that offers an opinion but nothing else?

Dilandach – let me just state that I’m pro-choice before I bring this up.

If you’re going to raise the “are you going to take care of it, etc” argument then you have to be prepared to apply those same questions to the pregnant woman. The pro-life groups can quite rationally expect you to explain why the pregnant woman didn’t think of the potential consequences of having sex (eg: pregnancy and the child that may result) before having sex. It’s not really a valid argument.

the argument still has plausibility in some cases, it retains at least some of its validity in regards to failed contraception, as the slight risk may be their , but the intent not, and it certainly maintains full validity as an argument in regards to rape, which makes up a larger part of this than some may think.

However, yes, as a general argument in itself, it is flawed, as you have pointed out, by the fact the same could be applied to the mother.

And to throw my two cents into the “Fathers choice” side of this debate: I find this a tricky one, I most certainly believe that the father should have allot to do with this decision (where applicable) as regardless of who is and who is not pregnant, you are still talking about his child, and I really hope no one is trying to apply men don’t have love for their children (thank you whoever it was who decided to belittle fatherhood to nothing more than donation, YOU are as bad as any misogynist)

However, at the end of the day, whilst i feel the desires of the father need to be VERY strongly taken into account, the final call still rests with the person who will carry the child, as much as the though of having a child taken from me (or potential child) is something i personally would find horrific, I cannot condone forcing a pregnancy on someone.

00davist 00davist 3:40 pm 21 Nov 11

Dilandach said :

Mumbucks said :

KaptnKaos said :

chewy14 said :

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.
On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.
So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

+1

Killing babies is never ok

Are you going to take care of ‘the’ baby? Going to pay for it? Adopt it? Contribute in any meaningful way?

Or just be part of the small rabble that offers an opinion but nothing else?

Ignore it, you are either feeding a rather lazy troll, or validting somone who has that good old “I’m wright, your wrong, End of discussion” mindset.

Anyone who tries to validate thir opinion by simply blocking out or silencing other opinions, or discussion, is unlikely to be worth your time, in my opinion.

As to the topic at hand, regaurdless of opinion on abortion, I not the Pro-life side is apparently using disproven science (the breast cancer link) in their argument.

That’s where you loose me, if you have that little faith in your own opinion, that you have to lie to try and garner support, then why should i have faith in it.

Even the most credible argument is lost when laced with bullsh*t.

Angelina Angelina 3:26 pm 21 Nov 11

Dilandach said :

Mumbucks said :

KaptnKaos said :

chewy14 said :

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.
On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.
So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

+1

Killing babies is never ok

Are you going to take care of ‘the’ baby? Going to pay for it? Adopt it? Contribute in any meaningful way?

Or just be part of the small rabble that offers an opinion but nothing else?

Dilandach – let me just state that I’m pro-choice before I bring this up.

If you’re going to raise the “are you going to take care of it, etc” argument then you have to be prepared to apply those same questions to the pregnant woman. The pro-life groups can quite rationally expect you to explain why the pregnant woman didn’t think of the potential consequences of having sex (eg: pregnancy and the child that may result) before having sex. It’s not really a valid argument.

VicePope VicePope 3:11 pm 21 Nov 11

Poetix – sorry it took a while to get back. I went to Aldi, so had to park at Homeworld where the carpark is full of utes and 4WDs driving in the wrong direction. But no white Commodores.
Point 1 – are you seriously arguing that something should be readily available as a public service just because some people might otherwise choose to break the law and face terrible risks? Would not two better answers be (a) don’t get pregnant if you don’t plan to have a child and (b) if for any reason (a) fails, ensure proper support to the mother and child? Why resort to killing and why demand government support?
Point 2 – no, I have not been pregnant, though I know many people who have been. The overall health risk/burden is not great in a very large majority of cases. Some weight gain, some gestational diabetes in some cases, occasional incontinence. It may be productive to compare it, in duration/severity to an injury but, if so, it would not be a severe one, in the great majority of cases.
Point 3 – no. I recall that Cyril Connolly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Connolly) had a mention in the Eric the half bee sketch. But I don’t think he was even Catholic.

Dilandach Dilandach 3:10 pm 21 Nov 11

Mumbucks said :

KaptnKaos said :

chewy14 said :

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.
On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.
So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

+1

Killing babies is never ok

Are you going to take care of ‘the’ baby? Going to pay for it? Adopt it? Contribute in any meaningful way?

Or just be part of the small rabble that offers an opinion but nothing else?

Mumbucks Mumbucks 3:00 pm 21 Nov 11

KaptnKaos said :

chewy14 said :

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.
On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.
So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

+1

Killing babies is never ok

poetix poetix 2:08 pm 21 Nov 11

poetix said :

VicePope said :

OK, I’ll bite, but mostly because the post was a tad biased. The rights argument is, with respect, shallow. The father has rights and so, from some point at least (about which reasonable people may reasonably differ), does the child. A poor choice by one person – not always the case, but often enough – does not entitle that person to disregard the rights of another, especially by killing the other.

The father doesn’t have the foetus inside him for nine months. The foetus isn’t a child until very late in the process. It is not a question of abstract rights or even ‘equal rights’ but of realisation that women are the ones affected by pregnancy. Women will abort unwanted pregnancies, whether legally, or, where there is no access to legal abortion, with whatever implement (or potion) is as hand. If you don’t have safe hygienic abortion, you are dooming many women to degrading actions and possible death. Does that worry you?

The idea of discussing abortion with someone who has chosen to call him or herself VicePope is vaguely surreal.

VicePope said :

But, Poetix, defining someone as human or not for the sake of attaching rights is, I suggest, the kind of thinking that permits massacres and discrimination against those asserted by a dominant group to be less than human – Jews, say, or Hutus or Hazaras or disabled people. At best, it’s circular; I am human, so I have rights, but I don’t want you to have those rights, so I’ll say you are not human.
And, given that the father would have rights and responsibilities in relation to care were the child to be born, it is a similar flaw to say that he has none prior to that. Being pregnant is a condition, that passes in a natural way, through birth or (sometimes) miscarriage – it is not per se a burden or deformity.
By the way, Vice-Pope (Eric) was an obscure Monty Python character whose name appealed to me. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such position in the Catholic church or any other.

You didn’t deal with my point about the damage women will suffer in order to end an unwanted pregnancy, and the fact that some would die doing DIY abortions with tools from Bunnings or wherever. What is a woman’s life worth?

Have you ever been pregnant? I would describe it exactly as a burden. One I wanted, and took up willingly, but physically incredibly difficult, even with the best care and in the best circumstances. Being made to stay pregnant against your will would be a form of torture.

And you can be in favour of access to abortion without engaging in genocide. Though those pesky Kiwis are starting to annoy me…

Was VicePope related to Eric the half-a-bee?

KaptnKaos KaptnKaos 1:34 pm 21 Nov 11

chewy14 said :

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.
On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.
So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

+1

00davist 00davist 1:30 pm 21 Nov 11

Deref said :

poetix said :

The idea of discussing abortion with someone who has chosen to call him or herself VicePope is vaguely surreal.

I assumed that s/he was identifying as the Pope of Vice – osternsibly something like a ministerial position looking after the time-honoured and institutionalised kind of vice, such as paedophilia – that the Head Pope feels he can hand over to a subordinate, while he spends his time on more important things, like promoting AIDS by declaring condoms sinful and railing against the evils of love and marriage.

He explained what he was reffering to a few posts back, a monty python reference…

Mysteryman Mysteryman 1:26 pm 21 Nov 11

VicePope said :

OK, I’ll bite, but mostly because the post was a tad biased. The rights argument is, with respect, shallow. The father has rights and so, from some point at least (about which reasonable people may reasonably differ), does the child. A poor choice by one person – not always the case, but often enough – does not entitle that person to disregard the rights of another, especially by killing the other.

A tad biased? I would have gone with “retardedly biased”, myself.

chewy14 chewy14 12:53 pm 21 Nov 11

The author of this article provides a very unbiased view.

On the one hand they are against exporting live animals for slaughter overseas.
On the other hand they are OK with people killing human foetuses.

So come along and pick up a sign and share the message.

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