7 September 2011

GDE to be a wonder of the earth?

| johnboy
Join the conversation
59

The Liberals’ Alistair Coe is having some fun comparing the construction time of the soon to be completed Gungahlin Drive Extension with other major construction projects.

“Of the ten years since ACT Labor came to power, approximately seven years have been spent with the road under construction.

“This is in contrast to the span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge which was built almost 80 years ago within four years.

“The 40 kilometre Westlink M7 freeway, a major piece of NSW infrastructure which includes 38 overpasses and underpasses, was completed in two years.

“The 2.8 kilometre Sydney Harbour Tunnel took only four years to complete.

“In Victoria, the 22 kilometre Melbourne City Link, one of the city’s major arterial roads, was completed in four years.

I think Alistair needs to broaden his imagination with this exercise.

So Rioters, what other things were built in under seven years?

I’d like to start with the Temple of Solomon.

Join the conversation

59
All Comments
  • All Comments
  • Website Comments
LatestOldest

As a cabbie, I could always be assured of a brisk conversation if the subject of the GDE was raised. A textbook case for project managers and politicians of how not to do things.

The money wasted, first by the NIMBY court case(s) and then by the delayed duplication, could have been spent on useful public needs, such as health or schools or other roadworks. Building the thing with one lane in each direction was a false economy.

But blaming external factors only goes so far. Just what the hell were they thinking of when they put in the Aranda access? That’s got to be the most stupid intersection in Canberra.

As for Gridloch Interchange, at least it now operates without traffic lights, but I honestly can’t see it working well when Molonglo really gets going. Cotter Road will be a nightmare at peak hours.

Cloverleaf intersections are things of the past. They might look pretty, but they just don’t work under load because you’ve got conflicting traffic flows trying to use the same bit of road. An example is the northernmost lane of Parkes Way under Commonwealth Avenue. However, Glenloch isn’t quite complete – coming south from Gungahlin/Belco, you can’t turn right to go west towards what will be the northern suburbs of Molonglo. That’s going to be an interesting piece of road to slot into what is going to be a very busy interchange.

Spectra said :

p1 said :

Spectra said :

The bulk of the US’s first trans-continental railroad (aka “The Overland Route”) took 6 years and totalled 2860 km, including through terrain considerably more challenging than O’Conner Ridge 😉 Though I think it was probably subject to considerably less law-suits.

Being able to legally shoot the equivalent of locals protesting probably streamlined the process somewhat.

Totally, although the locals here mounted far fewer horse-back attacks and rarely resorted to scalping 🙂

Scalping! Now there’s a thought!

p1 said :

Captain RAAF said :

The Maginot Line,one of the most complex constructions of its time took 9 years to build and stretched across the entire French border with Germany….pity they forgot the bit next to Belgium…….

Are you suggesting that, rather then using the GDE, it would be quicker and easier to drive through Belgium and defeat the French army?

You are probably right.

Without a doubt. A mate from my days in the green machine joined the fabled French Foreign Legion. After doing his enlistment (7 years I think) he was rather disillusioned. I recall him saying that a bunch of school cadets in a bad mood could’ve cut through his unit like a chainsaw through toilet paper.

Tomorrow I intend to drive to work in Fyshwick via Belgium. The French Army should step aside.

Keijidosha said :

A stacked interchange would have been expensive, but I believe necessary when you consider that the development of Molonglo will be pitching thousands more cars at Glenloch in the near future.

Completely agree – it’s not like traffic numbers will be going down! It’s hard to believe that someone actually decided that single lane transitions into and out of the city direction from multi-lane sources were wise. What it’s even more bizarre is that other people signed off on the design.

Sometimes the decision makers really do need to get out of Canberra a bit and experience the world a bit more – a few hours deep in gridlock in other parts of the country should be sufficient to give a bit of perspective. Here was an opportunity to design and build something in a wide open area that would work well today and scale into the future as traffic numbers grew. Insetad, we got something that would hardly be sufficient 10 years ago.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

It is a stack interchange, and is pretty much the most expensive option, and would be especially so at glenloch where elevation and ecological concerns dictated the design.

Maybe the initial design, but the addition of the GDE should have forced a radical redesign, rather than the seemingly haphazard, bizarre junction we are now burdoned with. The current solution seems to have placed low cost above practicality, which is ridiculous given the cost blowout of the GDE project. A stacked interchange would have been expensive, but I believe necessary when you consider that the development of Molonglo will be pitching thousands more cars at Glenloch in the near future.

Thoroughly Smashed2:08 pm 08 Sep 11

enrique said :

do you think they could have made it simpler?

If it were designed from the start as a single stage project, most probably.

As it has been executed we’ve had two separate projects run by different design consultants, each one working with what was there when they started, and offering a design that fits the client’s budget.

Well a similarly regarded enterprise took far less time.

Construction of RMS Titanic, funded by the American J.P. Morgan and his International Mercantile Marine Co., began on 31 March 1909. Titanic’s hull was launched at 12:13 on 31 May 1911, and her outfitting was completed by 31 March the following year.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

enrique said :

Why on earth didn’t they just build something straightforward like this… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloverleaf_interchange

Because cloverleafs are terrible things.

enrique said :

i.e. just like this one… http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-33.799584,150.855525&spn=0.01455,0.01929&t=h&vpsrc=6&z=16

Which is not even remotely a cloverleaf. It is a stack interchange, and is pretty much the most expensive option, and would be especially so at glenloch where elevation and ecological concerns dictated the design.

Fair enough, you learn something new everyday…

You seem to know a bit about this type of stuff, do you think they could have made it simpler?

The last ACT Labour campaign I overheard Stanhope discussing his reasons for not building the second lane on the GDE (and was not about to make any apologies for) was that the Government simply did not have the budget.

Thoroughly Smashed1:16 pm 08 Sep 11

enrique said :

Why on earth didn’t they just build something straightforward like this… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloverleaf_interchange

Because cloverleafs are terrible things.

enrique said :

i.e. just like this one… http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-33.799584,150.855525&spn=0.01455,0.01929&t=h&vpsrc=6&z=16

Which is not even remotely a cloverleaf. It is a stack interchange, and is pretty much the most expensive option, and would be especially so at glenloch where elevation and ecological concerns dictated the design.

What baffles me is the Glenloch Interchange…

How they managed to over-complicate, over-engineer and completely bugger up what essentially should be just a standard cloverleaf overpass is beyond comprehension.

Think about it… 2 roads, one runs north-south (Gunghalin to Woden/Tuggeranong), the other runs east-west (Civic to Belconnen). Why on earth didn’t they just build something straightforward like this… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloverleaf_interchange

i.e. just like this one… http://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-33.799584,150.855525&spn=0.01455,0.01929&t=h&vpsrc=6&z=16

If the ACT government had been in charge, the Great Pyramid of Giza wouldn’t have been completed yet.

keepitup said :

I understand that landscaping work will go on for up to 12 months. Of course that means there will be restricted speed limits. Get used to 40 and 60 kph sections until some time in 2012.

I wonder when they start on the public art sculpture….

“This is in contrast to the span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge which was built almost 80 years ago within four years.”

The biggest contrast is that back in those days people were having a bet and a good laugh that the Bridge will collapse during the construction.

You’d think that 80 years later they’d have it down pat… Or are we seeing a problem that wasn’t around back then?

I understand that landscaping work will go on for up to 12 months. Of course that means there will be restricted speed limits. Get used to 40 and 60 kph sections until some time in 2012.

yellowsnow said :

I don’t think i ever saw more than 10 people working on the damn thing simultaneously, each for probably no more than an hour a day on average, based on my observations

Does that include the 2 people holding the stop/go signs?

Keijidosha said :

yellowsnow said :

Bonzo said :

Of course the government could’ve cut that time in half (or more) if they had just told the O’Connor Ridge NIMBYs to bugger off and built the damn thing dual carriageway in the first place.

and here i was thinking they built a one lane freeway to save money … seriously, I don’t see how it had anything to do with NIMBYs.

After the project had commenced, protestors put a halt to construction and tied up the GDE in an expensive legal battle that went on for months (or perhaps years, I can’t recall.) Meanwhile the ACT Government was also paying the construction company (and their staff) to let their machinery sit idle on the ground.

All this soaked up so much money that the project was downscaled to one traffic lane in each direction until more money became available in following years.

This is exactly how it happened.

At the time of the original O’Connor NIMBY kerfuffle regarding the road, I entertained an altenate plan which involved a canal from Gungahlin to Aranda.
Vehicles would have been placed on horse drawn barges for the journey. The benefits would have included low noise impacts on the Bruce sports precinct and endless manure for their vast playing fields and arenas.
Drivers would have listened to clip clop of horses hooves during their pleasant voyage which would have taken the same time as travelling on the new road.
The low intellect of many Gungahlin residents would have made them perfect for the tedious task of tow path maintenance.
Had I submitted this plan at the time, we could well be living in a city different than now. Hang on, the Queanbeyan bypass is coming up…..

Best-Thread-Ever!
I wonder how the majura road work is going to take if this is the precedent. No doubt the wonderful people who took their jolly old time to do the GDE will be walking right into that contract next. Maybe we should have a poll to see how long that will take, and stuff around gunghalin residents even more? (Im from southside but I understand your pain)

shadow boxer4:15 pm 07 Sep 11

alaninoz said :

The wonder will be that the damn thing’s been finished!

Apparently once it is finished it will be so dangerous it will require point to point speed camera’s because they are only used in known black spots or high accident areas.

The wonder will be that the damn thing’s been finished!

Keijidosha said :

yellowsnow said :

Bonzo said :

Of course the government could’ve cut that time in half (or more) if they had just told the O’Connor Ridge NIMBYs to bugger off and built the damn thing dual carriageway in the first place.

and here i was thinking they built a one lane freeway to save money … seriously, I don’t see how it had anything to do with NIMBYs.

After the project had commenced, protestors put a halt to construction and tied up the GDE in an expensive legal battle that went on for months (or perhaps years, I can’t recall.) Meanwhile the ACT Government was also paying the construction company (and their staff) to let their machinery sit idle on the ground.

All this soaked up so much money that the project was downscaled to one traffic lane in each direction until more money became available in following years.

It was going to wait TEN years just before the last election until the Libs promised to duplicate it asap which then hastily picked up by Labor. They found the money somewhere and got on with it at least. Cant beleive they were going to let it stay one lane for up to 10 years though. Mind boggling.

Spectra said :

p1 said :

Spectra said :

The bulk of the US’s first trans-continental railroad (aka “The Overland Route”) took 6 years and totalled 2860 km, including through terrain considerably more challenging than O’Conner Ridge 😉 Though I think it was probably subject to considerably less law-suits.

Being able to legally shoot the equivalent of locals protesting probably streamlined the process somewhat.

Totally, although the locals here mounted far fewer horse-back attacks and rarely resorted to scalping 🙂

Are you sure? I did hear some rumours………………………

la mente torbida3:38 pm 07 Sep 11

This is in contrast to the span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge which was built almost 80 years ago within four years.

– While technically correct, the approaches added another four years to the build.

“The 40 kilometre Westlink M7 freeway, a major piece of NSW infrastructure which includes 38
overpasses and underpasses, was completed in two years.”

– February 2003 – December 2005 – that’s 2 years if you ignore the months

“The 2.8 kilometre Sydney Harbour Tunnel took only four years to complete”

– Give you that one

“In Victoria, the 22 kilometre Melbourne City Link, one of the city’s major arterial roads, was completed in four years.”

– Give you that one too

But let’s not forget the planning process

Keijidosha said :

All this soaked up so much money that the project was downscaled to one traffic lane in each direction until more money became available in following years.

That doesn’t sounds like very good forward thinking or use of taxpayer money. At least relying on flawed projections sounds half rational — but saying ‘let’s build half the road now because that’s all our budget allocation allows, but then two years later let’s build the other half at three times the $$ of adding the extra lanes at the outset’ is not what I call good financial management.

If costs blew out due to protesters and delays, ACT roads could at any stage have gone back to the Treasurer and requested further funds to be released from the Budget to cover extra costs (as happened with Lake Asbestos in Molonglo)

What other things were built in under 7 years? Well, Zed believes that the Earth was made in seven days.

yellowsnow said :

Bonzo said :

Of course the government could’ve cut that time in half (or more) if they had just told the O’Connor Ridge NIMBYs to bugger off and built the damn thing dual carriageway in the first place.

and here i was thinking they built a one lane freeway to save money … seriously, I don’t see how it had anything to do with NIMBYs.

After the project had commenced, protestors put a halt to construction and tied up the GDE in an expensive legal battle that went on for months (or perhaps years, I can’t recall.) Meanwhile the ACT Government was also paying the construction company (and their staff) to let their machinery sit idle on the ground.

All this soaked up so much money that the project was downscaled to one traffic lane in each direction until more money became available in following years.

p1 said :

Spectra said :

The bulk of the US’s first trans-continental railroad (aka “The Overland Route”) took 6 years and totalled 2860 km, including through terrain considerably more challenging than O’Conner Ridge 😉 Though I think it was probably subject to considerably less law-suits.

Being able to legally shoot the equivalent of locals protesting probably streamlined the process somewhat.

Totally, although the locals here mounted far fewer horse-back attacks and rarely resorted to scalping 🙂

Bonzo said :

Of course the government could’ve cut that time in half (or more) if they had just told the O’Connor Ridge NIMBYs to bugger off and built the damn thing dual carriageway in the first place.

and here i was thinking they built a one lane freeway to save money … seriously, I don’t see how it had anything to do with NIMBYs. Just as many trees had to be cut down for the original GDE as the revamped one

apart from penny pinching, the other culprit was poor traffic projections. They probably calculated all Gungahlin households had one car each (not two or three) and most would continue to use Northbourne because it was more direct. They may also not have taken into account growing populations, multiple daily trips (eg school runs to distant suburbs – some G folk send their kids to school on southside would you believe) or the fact that people other than Gunghalistas would want to use the road. Whatever the methodology, the outcome was an epic fail.

then again, projections are by nature worthless. Economic, climate, traffic or otherwise. They only serve to enrich consultants. If you ever see the government brandishing projections as evidence, hit them over the head with the documents

bigfeet said :

My contribution to this enterprise was considerably less.

Yeah, that’s what she said.

bigfeet said :

My wife built a whole new person in just under nine months.

My contribution to this enterprise was considerably less.

Sure it wasn’t the result of a romantic night in Turner?

My wife built a whole new person in just under nine months.

My contribution to this enterprise was considerably less.

creative_canberran said :

Holden Caulfield said :

God built the universe in six days.

That’s true (well, according to the bible anyway).
Let’s stick with the biblical theme and ponder how Moses could fit two of every animal on an ark and yet we can seem to do the same magic with cars on that road?

Ah.. I think you mean Noah, who after landing his ark on the mountain got massively drunk and passed out naked in his tent, and then cursed one of his sons and all of his descendants because the son saw his nakedness.

Moses freed the Jews (and was then denied entry to the promised land after having the audacity to ask God after 40 years of wondering around the desert if he was sure he knew where he was leading everyone).

Bible stories are awesome.

Thoroughly Smashed1:19 pm 07 Sep 11

creative_canberran said :

Holden Caulfield said :

God built the universe in six days.

That’s true (well, according to the bible anyway).
Let’s stick with the biblical theme and ponder how Moses could fit two of every animal on an ark and yet we can seem to do the same magic with cars on that road?

Or was it fourteen?

I like a lot of the suggestions here, but I don’t want to pass up an opportunity to lay some shit on Alistair Coe. Perhaps someone should explain to him the difference between building a new road and upgrading an existing one while it’s still in use.

Claiming that “The GDE” has taken seven years is much like taking an existing house, building an extension and then recalculating the time to completion for the whole house using the date the extension was completed. Stupid or dishonest, which one is it?

The Øresund Bridge took four years and that included a bridge, a railway, a tunnel and an artificial island.

Ha, top thread!

Ferrari World – Abu Dhabi – Worlds largest indoor (and also has outdoor) amusement park in the world completed in….wait for it…. 2 YEARS!!

Ferrari World is a Ferrari themed amusement park on Yas Island in Abu Dhabi.[1] The park is situated under a 200,000 square metres (2,200,000 sq ft)[2] roof making it the largest indoor amusement park in the world.[3] Ferrari World officially opened on November 4, 2010.[5] The theme park is home to Formula Rossa, the world’s fastest roller coaster.

The iconic roof of Ferrari World was designed by Benoy Architects.[10] It is modelled after the side profile of a Ferrari GT. Ramboll provided the structural engineering, masterplanning and urban design, geotechnical engineering and the facade engineering.[11] The roof has a total surface area of 200,000 square metres (2,200,000 sq ft) with a perimeter of 2,200 metres (7,200 ft). The theme park, measuring 86,000 square metres (930,000 sq ft), is located under this 50 metres (160 ft) high roof. These factors make Ferrari World the largest indoor theme park in the world.[1]

A Ferrari logo adorns the roof of the building and measures 65 metres (213 ft) by 48.5 metres (159 ft) – the largest Ferrari logo ever created.[3][12] 12,370 tonnes of steel has been used to support this roof.[1] The centre of the roof is marked by a 100-metre (330 ft) glazed funnel. – wiki

creative_canberran12:40 pm 07 Sep 11

Holden Caulfield said :

God built the universe in six days.

That’s true (well, according to the bible anyway).
Let’s stick with the biblical theme and ponder how Moses could fit two of every animal on an ark and yet we can seem to do the same magic with cars on that road?

Holden Caulfield said :

God built the universe in six days.

And apparently it’s only 6 thousand years old or something.

Holden Caulfield said :

God built the universe in six days.

Can you imagine if the ACT Government were his project managers……….?

Holden Caulfield12:09 pm 07 Sep 11

God built the universe in six days.

An additional contribution from Mrs Frots:

The side fence at our place only took 5 years
The painting of the lounge and dining room was 6 years
Me doing the dishes………………..on-going project!

Of course the government could’ve cut that time in half (or more) if they had just told the O’Connor Ridge NIMBYs to bugger off and built the damn thing dual carriageway in the first place.

Pick your factor: Cost, time, or combination of both.
Hadrian’s Wall only took six years, is 120km long, and has lasted almost two thousand years.
You could build the early phases of the Maginot Line for that money, or the entire thing in almost as much time…
You can also say that Versailles is now worth ten GDEs.

it may have taken a while in time and money, but in terms of man-hours spent on the job the GDE was remarkably efficient.

I don’t think i ever saw more than 10 people working on the damn thing simultaneously, each for probably no more than an hour a day on average, based on my observations.

And as far as I know no one died during construction, unlike with all the aforementioned wonders of the modern world. Though certainly a few heads should have rolled over the project, which set a new low benchmark for infrastructure project management in Australia (i believe it’s already being used as a ‘how not to do things’ case study in courses and textbooks!)

Falkirk Wheel, 22 months (including a 104m aqueduct and a 168m tunnel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkirk_Wheel

The Colosseum of Rome took 8 years.

Taking bets on the Canberra stadium revamp to take similar time.

The Burj Khalifa – tallest building in the world only took 6 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Khalifa
Though the 22,000 man hours is probably a few more than the GDE. If we measure it by man-hours, the GDE is probably a pretty good deal considering the 3 guys that have been working on it got it done in only 7 years.

Kalgoorlie water pipeline – 1896-1903 – of course for those days it was just a little walk in the park.
The Golden Gate Bridge – Jan 1933-April 1937 – ditto – nothing much happened there.

MonarchRepublic11:16 am 07 Sep 11

Spectra said :

The bulk of the US’s first trans-continental railroad (aka “The Overland Route”) took 6 years and totalled 2860 km, including through terrain considerably more challenging than O’Conner Ridge 😉 Though I think it was probably subject to considerably less law-suits.

And I assume they installed BOTH rails in the first instance too…

YetAnotherBlowIn11:06 am 07 Sep 11

EastLink in Melbourne was completed in 3 years & 3 months. 49km of roads including: 4km of tunnels, a couple of bypasses, a major freeway interchange, at least 15 over/underpasses and a handfull of pedestrian bridges.

The Trans-Australian Railway was completed in 5 years & 1 month.

The first 13km section of The Great Ocean Road in Victoria only took 3 years, and that was done by hand with pick axes and explosives (and a lot of returned Australian servicemen….)

Spectra said :

The bulk of the US’s first trans-continental railroad (aka “The Overland Route”) took 6 years and totalled 2860 km, including through terrain considerably more challenging than O’Conner Ridge 😉 Though I think it was probably subject to considerably less law-suits.

Being able to legally shoot the equivalent of locals protesting probably streamlined the process somewhat.

The bulk of the US’s first trans-continental railroad (aka “The Overland Route”) took 6 years and totalled 2860 km, including through terrain considerably more challenging than O’Conner Ridge 😉 Though I think it was probably subject to considerably less law-suits.

Another way to look at this is to wonder just how long it would have taken to build those various things if the ACT government had been in charge…

Adding a nought to everything seems about right.

Captain RAAF said :

The Maginot Line,one of the most complex constructions of its time took 9 years to build and stretched across the entire French border with Germany….pity they forgot the bit next to Belgium…….

Are you suggesting that, rather then using the GDE, it would be quicker and easier to drive through Belgium and defeat the French army?

You are probably right.

The Millau Viaduct was started in October 2001 and finished (ahead of schedule) in December 2004. It is considered a marvel of modern engineering and seriously impressive on a global scale, and at the time was the worlds tallest bridge with a deck height of 270m above the valley below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct

Hoover Dam took 5 years.

Captain RAAF10:20 am 07 Sep 11

Hitlers Atlantic Wall, which stretched from Spain to northern Norway took two years to build though it’s effectiveness would probably be on a par with the GDE now.

The Seigfried Line took two years to build.

What we need is conscripts and slave labour!

The Maginot Line,one of the most complex constructions of its time took 9 years to build and stretched across the entire French border with Germany….pity they forgot the bit next to Belgium…….

Hmmmm. World Wars 1 and 2 were started and finished in less time. As was the Korean War and many others.

However seven years or more may be what it takes for this Labor Government to get back in after the next election.

Ooh, and the Empire State Building was just 410 day!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_State_Building

Daily Digest

Want the best Canberra news delivered daily? Every day we package the most popular Riotact stories and send them straight to your inbox. Sign-up now for trusted local news that will never be behind a paywall.

By submitting your email address you are agreeing to Region Group's terms and conditions and privacy policy.