11 August 2011

GDE two months early or seven years late? [With poll]

| johnboy
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The hawk-like Alistair Coe has plunged upon a tweet by Simon Corbell boasting that the mid October finish date for the Gungahlin Drive Extension will be two and a half months ahead of schedule.

“It’s startling, given that ACT Labor promised to build the road for $53 million in 2001, to be completed by 2004,” Mr Coe said.

“This is a clear attempt from ACT Labor to rewrite history and lessen the negativity surrounding this iconic failure.

“Simon Corbells promise comes from the same government which opened a two lane road in 2008, despite being advised to initially build four lanes.

“This is the same government which also declared that duplication was ‘not on the books at all and any such plan would be five to ten years away’ (Canberra Times, 12/3/2008).

“In the lead-up to the 2008 election, ACT Labor announced it would finally duplicate the road at an extra cost of $86.6 million, in response to an election promise from the Canberra Liberals to duplicate it.

“The total time since ACT Labor’s first announcement of the road is 10 years and counting. The project is $150 million over the original budget and seven years late.

Gungahlin Drive Extension completion

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Thoroughly Smashed said :

Perhaps you could use a different road if you don’t want your time “wasted” by this one?

And anyway, your argument could be applied to any number of roads, what makes this one special?

Unnecessarily slow speed limits waste time – of course the amount of time wasted depends on how far you travel. When I drive the GDE I generally drive the whole length from Glenloch to Gungahlin.
I assume ‘Glenloch to Glenloch’ is a typo.
That a ‘significant’ portion of traffic won’t do the whole length only revises my estimate of wasted man-hours down somewhat – it doesn’t eliminate the waste

Acknowledge that in congestion, people will be driving slower anyway.

Nothing makes this road special. If this is the most efficient route for travel, why would it be necessary to drive an alternate – that would only waste more – your point is spurious.

Thoroughly Smashed10:24 am 14 Aug 11

m_ratt said :

Thoroughly Smashed said :

The difference: 80 seconds.

Meh.

80 seconds per vehicle. How many thousands of vehicles per day? How many passengers per vehicle?

80 seconds per vehicle (your estimate)
1.1 passengers per vehicle on average (my estimate)
35,000-42,000 vehicles per day. (2001 prediction for 2011/2021 – http://www.nationalcapital.gov.au/downloads/plan/gde/Traffic%20&%20Transport%20Planning%20Assessment.pdf)

That’s roughly 850 to 1000 [b]wasted[/b] man-hours (more than a man-month) each day by unnecessarily having an 80km/h limit instead of 100km/h where safe.

Hardly ‘Meh’.

On a side note: I particularly liked section 4.4.2 in the above-linked report. “The Southbound flows cannot be accommodated in 2011 within a two-lane arterial road but require a four-lane road.”

Note that 80 seconds is the difference between 80 km/hr and 100 km/hr for the entire length of the road, from Glenloch to Glenlock. A significant proportion won’t be doing that, and a significant proportion will be travelling during peak hour when it may not even be possible to do 80 km/hr on most days.

Perhaps you could use a different road if you don’t want your time “wasted” by this one?

And anyway, your argument could be applied to any number of roads, what makes this one special?

Thoroughly Smashed said :

The difference: 80 seconds.

Meh.

80 seconds per vehicle. How many thousands of vehicles per day? How many passengers per vehicle?

80 seconds per vehicle (your estimate)
1.1 passengers per vehicle on average (my estimate)
35,000-42,000 vehicles per day. (2001 prediction for 2011/2021 – http://www.nationalcapital.gov.au/downloads/plan/gde/Traffic%20&%20Transport%20Planning%20Assessment.pdf)

That’s roughly 850 to 1000 [b]wasted[/b] man-hours (more than a man-month) each day by unnecessarily having an 80km/h limit instead of 100km/h where safe.

Hardly ‘Meh’.

On a side note: I particularly liked section 4.4.2 in the above-linked report. “The Southbound flows cannot be accommodated in 2011 within a two-lane arterial road but require a four-lane road.”

qedbynature said :

My big problem with the GDE is the way it commits Canberrans to car based travel for commuting. Expanding Majura Lane is more of the same. And every time the same excuse is trotted out that alternatives like light rail are too expensive and not viable and the money goes to building and maintaining more roads. Taking people out of cars, taking cars of the roads eases the traffic congestion and reduces the need for bigger roads. In any modern large city, rail or light rail is critical to the way people can live and function.

Mate, they were doing it anyway, GDE was to reduce congestion mainly out of the one road leading out of Gunghalin. Canberra was designed for the car, and has done that succesfully. However, the downside of the layout is that it’s a terrible design for public transport.

GDE finished? Fantastic, more roads to carry more cars. I mean I like the bypass of Belconnen and the city when I decide to venture south and yes any idiot with half a brain would have seen the need for 4 lanes from day 1 but building more and more arterial roads to cope with the commuter traffic of cars seems so last century. Sure any investment in an alternative such as light rail looks expensive in terms of initial outlay but as we have seen constructing a decent road can take a long time and then what? What happens to the morning gridlock at the various entrances and exits?

My big problem with the GDE is the way it commits Canberrans to car based travel for commuting. Expanding Majura Lane is more of the same. And every time the same excuse is trotted out that alternatives like light rail are too expensive and not viable and the money goes to building and maintaining more roads. Taking people out of cars, taking cars of the roads eases the traffic congestion and reduces the need for bigger roads. In any modern large city, rail or light rail is critical to the way people can live and function.

Thoroughly Smashed3:39 pm 12 Aug 11

Primal said :

Classified said :

The problem with leaving it at 80km/h is that we’ll have people ignoring the limit (like they do on other roads where the limit is well beloe what most drivers would choose), a few people driving a bit over, a few people doing the limit and the occasional vehicle going below the limit. This leads to lots of variation, which in turn leads to snarkiness.

I call it the Drakeford Drive conundrum. What do you do when the speed limit is 80 and every other driver around you is happily doing 90?

Change lanes at random!

Tetranitrate3:33 pm 12 Aug 11

Skidbladnir said :

damien haas said :

Tony Gill of roads ACt was ‘No’ as a result of concerns about noise by residents along the route, the limit will be 80 kmh for the majority of the GDE.

Those would be the same people who live in houses near airports or train lines because they were lowest-cost options, and then expect demand to be given equal consideration as stakeholders.
The best thing to do is treat them with the respect they deserve, not the level of respect they demand.

It’s a (relatively) new road. The back of Kaleen was just empty horse/sheep paddocks a little over 10 years ago.

Classified said :

The problem with leaving it at 80km/h is that we’ll have people ignoring the limit (like they do on other roads where the limit is well below what most drivers would choose), a few people driving a bit over, a few people doing the limit and the occasional vehicle going below the limit. This leads to lots of variation, which in turn leads to snarkiness. Of course we’ll then see plenty of enforcement, but like other roads people will get to know where they can and can’t speed, and speeds will vary even further.

Perhaps putting a sensible speed limit and having sensible enforcement would be a better solution?

But isn’t it obvious to everyone why? The 80kph speed limit is to encourage drivers to speed, so that speed cameras can be put there and raise lots of revenue off poor unsuspecting drivers. The extra revenue raised will help pay for the road, which cost more than originally planned because of that court action by the Save O’Connor Ridge group.

Geez people, keep up!

Primal said :

Classified said :

The problem with leaving it at 80km/h is that we’ll have people ignoring the limit (like they do on other roads where the limit is well beloe what most drivers would choose), a few people driving a bit over, a few people doing the limit and the occasional vehicle going below the limit. This leads to lots of variation, which in turn leads to snarkiness.

I call it the Drakeford Drive conundrum. What do you do when the speed limit is 80 and every other driver around you is happily doing 90?

Sounds like the Monaro Hwy heading north from Hume. 80km/h zone on a wide, straight, slightly downhill section with hundreds of metres of clear visibility in most conditions. Traffic approaches at between 85 and 105, stands on the anchors for the camera, speeds back up to 95+, slows back down to 90ish again around the bend (because sometimes the cops sit there), stand on the anchors as the stream of traffic pours out from Lanyon Drive and tries to merge while accelerating like crazy, then back up to 95 or so, then on to 105 at the 100 zone. Occasionally you see the undercover cops cars (commodore or hilux ute) nab someone.

Classified said :

The problem with leaving it at 80km/h is that we’ll have people ignoring the limit (like they do on other roads where the limit is well beloe what most drivers would choose), a few people driving a bit over, a few people doing the limit and the occasional vehicle going below the limit. This leads to lots of variation, which in turn leads to snarkiness.

I call it the Drakeford Drive conundrum. What do you do when the speed limit is 80 and every other driver around you is happily doing 90?

damien haas said :

One of the questions that would have been asked of Simon Corbell if he had bothered to turn up to the GCC meeting was ‘will the speed limit on the GDE be 100 kmh when its finished?’ the response from Tony Gill of roads ACt was ‘No’ as a result of concerns about noise by residents along the route, the limit will be 80 kmh for the majority of the GDE.

It’s a damn sight faster than our current 40kph, so I’m good with it.

Although this “majority” could worry me. Does this mean it will be mostly 80, but with short and random intervals of, say, 70 or 100? I really hate that!

Classified said :

The problem with leaving it at 80km/h is that we’ll have people ignoring the limit (like they do on other roads where the limit is well beloe what most drivers would choose), a few people driving a bit over, a few people doing the limit and the occasional vehicle going below the limit. This leads to lots of variation, which in turn leads to snarkiness. Of course we’ll then see plenty of enforcement, but like other roads people will get to know where they can and can’t speed, and speeds will vary even further.

Perhaps putting a sensible speed limit and having sensible enforcement would be a better solution?

Not from this government! The same govt that dropped the Monaro hwy from 100kmh to 80kmh and stuck a speed camera up.

Funny thing is even now with the 60kmh zone in the completed area of Glenlock, people are travelling quite comfortably between 90-100kmh ie determining their own speed given the surroundings (ie the fact the road is complete, there are no workers etc.)

I was actually thinking they’d make it 70kmh in most zones.

The problem with leaving it at 80km/h is that we’ll have people ignoring the limit (like they do on other roads where the limit is well beloe what most drivers would choose), a few people driving a bit over, a few people doing the limit and the occasional vehicle going below the limit. This leads to lots of variation, which in turn leads to snarkiness. Of course we’ll then see plenty of enforcement, but like other roads people will get to know where they can and can’t speed, and speeds will vary even further.

Perhaps putting a sensible speed limit and having sensible enforcement would be a better solution?

KaptnKaos said :

If’ it is going to be left at 80kph, why did they waste money on the noise barriers or is that part of the “artwork” to go with the rocks in a pile and bits of metal.

Pretty sure its not a noise barrier, as far as I can tell its a barrier to stop the lights from bruce stadium blinding people driving along the road.

damien haas said :

Tony Gill of roads ACt was ‘No’ as a result of concerns about noise by residents along the route, the limit will be 80 kmh for the majority of the GDE.

Those would be the same people who live in houses near airports or train lines because they were lowest-cost options, and then expect demand to be given equal consideration as stakeholders.
The best thing to do is treat them with the respect they deserve, not the level of respect they demand.

damien haas said :

One of the questions that would have been asked of Simon Corbell if he had bothered to turn up to the GCC meeting was ‘will the speed limit on the GDE be 100 kmh when its finished?’ the response from Tony Gill of roads ACt was ‘No’ as a result of concerns about noise by residents along the route, the limit will be 80 kmh for the majority of the GDE.

Did they actually say it is going to be 80km/hr?
The original design was for a 100km/hr road with a speed limit of 90km/hr. What a joke.

damien haas said :

One of the questions that would have been asked of Simon Corbell if he had bothered to turn up to the GCC meeting was ‘will the speed limit on the GDE be 100 kmh when its finished?’ the response from Tony Gill of roads ACt was ‘No’ as a result of concerns about noise by residents along the route, the limit will be 80 kmh for the majority of the GDE.

Just plain rude and arrogant of the stresscorb not to turn up just goes to show how much he cares about “his precious” (yes said in a lord of the rings way, suits stresscorb) community.

If’ it is going to be left at 80kph, why did they waste money on the noise barriers or is that part of the “artwork” to go with the rocks in a pile and bits of metal.

“the mid October finish date for the Gungahlin Drive Extension will be two and a half months ahead of schedule.”

that would apparently be because most other urban development seems to have stopped, with resources diverted or money finished, well at least the lake Ginnenderra lighting and play areas, nothing has happened there for 3 weeks plus……

Trouble is that Labor has been in power since 2001 in the ACT. Actions by ACT Government are pretty well now Labor actions.

Labor’s first term (2001) in government was quite ok. The problem was when they got the majority in 2004 and started misbehaving. It was a level of unaccountability that has never been pulled back. If we ever get a change of government (rolls eys), then I am quite sure that we’ll all eventually be making the same accusations against the Libs.

And please keep the feds out of it. The locals are quite capable of mistreating people and lying all on their own.

blowers said :

Has anyone ever wondered if it was a ploy by the contracted company to keep their staff employed longer? They must have known they had the Government by the short and curlies and just slowed down construction. How many times do you have to rip up and relay the same piece of road??

I love conspiracy theories

Yep. And now that the Majura parkway gig is coming up, they magically can finish the GDE a few months early. All it took was the sniff of future ongoing work! Have to keep that ploy in mind for next time……

Thoroughly Smashed8:58 am 12 Aug 11

damien haas said :

One of the questions that would have been asked of Simon Corbell if he had bothered to turn up to the GCC meeting was ‘will the speed limit on the GDE be 100 kmh when its finished?’ the response from Tony Gill of roads ACt was ‘No’ as a result of concerns about noise by residents along the route, the limit will be 80 kmh for the majority of the GDE.

The difference: 80 seconds.

Meh.

Has anyone ever wondered if it was a ploy by the contracted company to keep their staff employed longer? They must have known they had the Government by the short and curlies and just slowed down construction. How many times do you have to rip up and relay the same piece of road??

I love conspiracy theories

One of the questions that would have been asked of Simon Corbell if he had bothered to turn up to the GCC meeting was ‘will the speed limit on the GDE be 100 kmh when its finished?’ the response from Tony Gill of roads ACt was ‘No’ as a result of concerns about noise by residents along the route, the limit will be 80 kmh for the majority of the GDE.

p1 said :

I’m a little worried about the loss of jobs associated with the finishing of this project.

The one guy who has been working on it will be out of a job.

Nope, surely he got the contract for Majura Parkway!

We pay these people to run the A.C.T. and that includes planning for the future. How could they have NOT KNOWN 2 lanes was never going to work! Total incompetence and who loses every time…the taxpayer and the poor bastards that have had to put up with years of needless disruption. You know what to do Canberra….do not do it to yourself again.

Classified said :

what_the said :

Bluey said :

John Moulis said :

alaninoz said :

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

So the blame for the GDE turning into an expensive and long overdue schemozzle can’t be sheeted home to politicians but stupid, opportunistic green scum.

“there will be no carbon tax under any gvt I lead” oh wait…. typical Labor lies.

.

Urgh, getting tired of this partisan crap – Never Ever GST, Rolled Gold Iron Clad Medicare Safety Net – typical Liberal lies (see how stupid it partisan crap sounds when it’s completely hypocritical?) Please, dont lower yourself by pretending Liberals have never told any lies.

This issue isn’t about lies, it’s about incompetence.

It’s in the nature of politicians to lie and pander and carry on like idiots, regardless of which party they are affiliated. Personally, I prefer politicians that make decisions and then push through with them, rather than flopping around.

Exactly. When someone stands up crying liar liar whilst completely ignoring the lies of their team players, it makes them sound idiotic and incapable of thinking for themselves. It’s all about regurgitating partisan crap.

what_the said :

Bluey said :

John Moulis said :

alaninoz said :

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

So the blame for the GDE turning into an expensive and long overdue schemozzle can’t be sheeted home to politicians but stupid, opportunistic green scum.

“there will be no carbon tax under any gvt I lead” oh wait…. typical Labor lies.

.

Urgh, getting tired of this partisan crap – Never Ever GST, Rolled Gold Iron Clad Medicare Safety Net – typical Liberal lies (see how stupid it partisan crap sounds when it’s completely hypocritical?) Please, dont lower yourself by pretending Liberals have never told any lies.

This issue isn’t about lies, it’s about incompetence.

It’s in the nature of politicians to lie and pander and carry on like idiots, regardless of which party they are affiliated. Personally, I prefer politicians that make decisions and then push through with them, rather than flopping around.

housebound said :

… but the point of having laws is that they are followed.

Sorry, but no. Remember the golden rule.

John Moulis said :

They would have been able to “do it right first time and cheaper” if that selfish group of urban greenies called Save O’Connor Ridge and other conservationists hadn’t delayed the project by two years with legal action. …. stupid, opportunistic green scum.

The only reason Save The Ridge had a legal leg to stand on was that ACTPLA couldn’t read their own legislation and approved works without an EIS. Save the Ridge won the first appeal (which only said that the govt. had to do an EIS after all). After that, it gets murky because the government changed the rules (can’t remember how).

It is a typical Labor ploy to blame a community group for delays of its own making. There would have been no hold up at all if only the thing had been done the right way the first time. The government couldn’t be bothered requiring an EIS, and then got upset when someone pointed out that the law at the time said they had to.

I have no affiliation with Save the Ridge – we don’t even live anyhere nearby – but the point of having laws is that they are followed.

John Moulis said :

alaninoz said :

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

They would have been able to “do it right first time and cheaper” if that selfish group of urban greenies called Save O’Connor Ridge and other conservationists hadn’t delayed the project by two years with legal action.

Money earmarked for the project had to be diverted into defending the project in court and by the time the scumbags had the case thrown out and the road could proceed there was only enough money left to build a single lane road.

So the blame for the GDE turning into an expensive and long overdue schemozzle can’t be sheeted home to politicians but stupid, opportunistic green scum.

I agree that the nimbys and greenies didn’t help but it’s not all their faults. Hard though it may be to believe, even lawyers are cheaper than roads.

I’ll happily vote them out, just as soon as the other lot start looking like a competent alternative government.

(which would take longer – GDE or opposition competence?)

Thoroughly Smashed5:04 pm 11 Aug 11

“The total time since ACT Labor’s first announcement of the road is 10 years and counting. The project is $150 million over the original budget and seven years late.”

Actually, no. It’s two separate projects; you can’t claim that the original budget was ever intended to stretch up to now an expect to be taken seriously. You’re going to have to try a bit harder Alistair.

I’m a little worried about the loss of jobs associated with the finishing of this project.

The one guy who has been working on it will be out of a job.

It would have been a lot less inconvenient if they had built it the same way as most major roads in Tuggeranong where they first built one complete set of lanes, say the northbound ones, and then built the other set of lanes when needed. Instead, they half built both sets of lanes and then ripped most of them up again causing lots of disruption to everyone.

patrick_keogh4:44 pm 11 Aug 11

John Moulis said :

alaninoz said :

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

They would have been able to “do it right first time and cheaper” if that selfish group of urban greenies called Save O’Connor Ridge and other conservationists hadn’t delayed the project by two years with legal action.

Money earmarked for the project had to be diverted into defending the project in court and by the time the scumbags had the case thrown out and the road could proceed there was only enough money left to build a single lane road.

So the blame for the GDE turning into an expensive and long overdue schemozzle can’t be sheeted home to politicians but stupid, opportunistic green scum.

John, don’t forget the other major culprit in this exercise which was the Liberal federal government, who just to be bloody minded forced the GDE down the most expensive route claiming that the noise/pollution would be unacceptable for AIS athletes. The road would have been much cheaper on the original alignment and so it is more likely that a four lane road could have been afforded.

Actually to call the Save the Ridge people “greenies” is a misnomer. The ridge that they fought so long and hard to protect had been a garbage dump when I first moved to Canberra. They were not greenies, they were nimbys. My least favourite feral animal.

switch said :

I just don’t understand how they got it so wrong. You’d think it just so bloody obvious to do it right first time when all the equipment was there in place.

+1

Bluey said :

John Moulis said :

alaninoz said :

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

So the blame for the GDE turning into an expensive and long overdue schemozzle can’t be sheeted home to politicians but stupid, opportunistic green scum.

“there will be no carbon tax under any gvt I lead” oh wait…. typical Labor lies.

.

Urgh, getting tired of this partisan crap – Never Ever GST, Rolled Gold Iron Clad Medicare Safety Net – typical Liberal lies (see how stupid it partisan crap sounds when it’s completely hypocritical?) Please, dont lower yourself by pretending Liberals have never told any lies.

This issue isn’t about lies, it’s about incompetence.

what_the said :

As if they’re even going to finish by October judging by the current amount of work going on. I took a drive past the Belconnen way turn off and was amazed at the work still to be done, felt sorry for you poor Gunghalin buggers!

Any idiot could have told you that it had to be AT LEAST a 4 lane road. Monumental stuff up and yep, definitely a lame attempt to re-write history. Vote changer for me.

Yep – the blame sits squarely with Stanhope and Corbell. They were advised that one single lane wasn’t enough – but hey, what the hell. We still have that extraordinary ‘penis’ at Belconnen Way don’t we!

John Moulis said :

alaninoz said :

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

So the blame for the GDE turning into an expensive and long overdue schemozzle can’t be sheeted home to politicians but stupid, opportunistic green scum.

The issue is, they said it would remain a single lane for 5 or 10 years than a year later announced it would be duplicated in a knee jerk reaction to the Libs saying they would do it.

“there will be no carbon tax under any gvt I lead” oh wait…. typical Labor lies.

They shouldve pulled their finger out and done it properly the first time, they obviously pulled the money from SOMEWHERE to get the duplication going so soon after completion.

To think of the thousands of hours of peoples lives wasted on that carpark of a road, the tonnes of carbon emitted from cars going no where and the general stress put on every single gungahlin commuter because of that road.

Never again. Vote them out.

As if they’re even going to finish by October judging by the current amount of work going on. I took a drive past the Belconnen way turn off and was amazed at the work still to be done, felt sorry for you poor Gunghalin buggers!

Any idiot could have told you that it had to be AT LEAST a 4 lane road. Monumental stuff up and yep, definitely a lame attempt to re-write history. Vote changer for me.

I just don’t understand how they got it so wrong. You’d think it just so bloody obvious to do it right first time when all the equipment was there in place.

alaninoz said :

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

They would have been able to “do it right first time and cheaper” if that selfish group of urban greenies called Save O’Connor Ridge and other conservationists hadn’t delayed the project by two years with legal action.

Money earmarked for the project had to be diverted into defending the project in court and by the time the scumbags had the case thrown out and the road could proceed there was only enough money left to build a single lane road.

So the blame for the GDE turning into an expensive and long overdue schemozzle can’t be sheeted home to politicians but stupid, opportunistic green scum.

Would have been quicker and a damn sight cheaper if they’d done it right the first time. A lot less inconvenience too.

Option C: Don’t care, just finish the damn thing.

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