From Section 116 of the Constitution: The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing…">From Section 116 of the Constitution: The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing…">From Section 116 of the Constitution: The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing…">
29 March 2013

Good Friday's Unconstitutional laws?

| gooterz
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http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s116.html”>From Section 116 of the Constitution:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Seems silly that we all get a day off yet everything is closed and we’re forced to observe a religious holiday that also goes against Australian constitutional law.

I would say the Constitution would supersede any laws preventing stores to open this weekend?

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neanderthalsis9:17 am 02 Apr 13

Seems silly that we all get a day off yet everything is closed ……

Go away, read what you wrote, realise the stupidity of what you said, apologise profusely, go back to your cubicle farm in the Dept of Whatevs and stop whinging about a day off.

Another damned buffoon that thinks the world exists to serve them

trevar said :

As Gooterz suggests, Atheists don’t like public holidays and can therefore work four more days each year than the rest of us.

So punish people for being agnostic or Atheist, I see how you value others religious choices?

Brilliant. Let’s make it so all workers have to declare your personal beliefs to their employer just to get a day off work. Can’t see anything wrong with that idea!

It works when your sick, you have to tell work you are sick and that you have been to the doctor. Yet you don’t have to tell them why you are sick.

Its better than the assume everyone follows Easter and Christmas, bad luck if you don’t approach.

While the OP does erroneously equate the declaration of a public holiday with enforcement of a religious observance, s/he does raise another point that I think this country is going to have to grapple with eventually.

As a Christian, I have no objection to being able to participate in the two most important observances of my religion with the luxury of a public holiday, but it seems to me to be an unreasonable luxury to have over other religionists. I see no reason why I should enjoy this luxury while adherents of other religions do not. I see a couple of practical solutions for this, which I think have been discussed on RA before.

Firstly, we could make it a part of employment law that employees declare their religion when they commence with an employer, and since there are currently four holidays associated with the Christian calendar, everyone is entitled to four holidays associated with the religion they identify at the commencement of their employment. As Gooterz suggests, Atheists don’t like public holidays and can therefore work four more days each year than the rest of us.

The other option, as I see it, is that since there are 9 public holidays each year (I believe that although every state has different ones, they all have the same number), we bump this up to 10 and simply allow an additional 10 days annual leave each year for FTE permanent employees, and bump casual rates up commensurately, in lieu of having any public holidays whatsoever.

Either of these options seems a win-win. The eternally contentious celebration/commemoration of the British invasion of our shores would be irrelevant; persons of any religion could participate in observances without let or hindrance; anyone observing a religious observance would not have to panic when they realise they forgot to buy cream; and perhaps most importantly, the carparks of the nice places that we like to go to on our days off would not fill up quite so quickly because we’d be staggering our days off instead of all going at once!

While the obnoxious selfishness of the Atheists and a rather foolish 1+1=11 argument may have been the starting point of this rant, I nonetheless like where it’s headed!

Ko. said :

I don’t really care why there’s a reason why don’t have to be at work. I’m a staunch atheist and I see it as a day off work, not a religious holiday.

FFS Gooterz, go spend time with your family and enjoy the 4 days off.

The unions probably have had a beneficial part to play in this, too. Those working in retail also have lives and families and a desire to spend well recognised holidays at home with them. As others have said, a bit of time management on your part makes for a slightly fairer society overall, and if you still want to be a partypooper, you can go shopping on the Internet.

I don’t really care why there’s a reason why don’t have to be at work. I’m a staunch atheist and I see it as a day off work, not a religious holiday.

FFS Gooterz, go spend time with your family and enjoy the 4 days off.

gooterz said :

gungsuperstar said :

Deref said :

gungsuperstar said :

Does mocking people who think differently to you make you feel smarter?

Do you suppose that religious people feel smarter when they impose their mythologies on people who don’t share them?

Except this has already been disproven by most of the comments here – tell me, in what way are religious people “imposing their mythologies” on anyone at all?

Store trading hours in the ACT are de-regulated, store owners have the right to open their stores whenever they like. If a Christian chooses to close their store to observe Easter, that is THEIR choice – it is not a choice that has been made by government. Just as if a Muslim chooses to open their store, that is also THEIR choice.

If a Muslim opens their store on Good Friday then they also get to choose not to pay penalty rates to staff?
Interesting that stores have to pay a excess to not observe Easter?

Did you get paid for not going into work on Friday? or This coming Monday?

12 public holidays in 2013, In the six months starting from 25/12/12 there are 10 holidays, and in the following 6 months there are 2, for a back to back weekend in October.

I’d say good work to the Muslim for having his own business, but, if you don’t like that fact that you live in a western country, with western holidays that follow the Christian calendar, then can I suggest moving to Iran, or the UAE, or maybe even North Korea?

Sounds like Commy talk to me, how are you going to feel when we get invaded and can’t shave your arm pits any more? How will you feel then? Huh?

Speaking against the government in countries like Iraq, Russia etc, will normally get you locked up for good though…

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd8:03 am 31 Mar 13

I was more shocked that I could not find a butcher open yesterday. Drive halfway across canberra and ended up at fyshwick markets,

So we live in a majority Christian country, with Christian holidays – wow who would have guessed?

How about being glad you live in a country that has holidays and so far most people aren’t forced to work seven days a week for small wages?

gungsuperstar said :

Deref said :

gungsuperstar said :

Does mocking people who think differently to you make you feel smarter?

Do you suppose that religious people feel smarter when they impose their mythologies on people who don’t share them?

Except this has already been disproven by most of the comments here – tell me, in what way are religious people “imposing their mythologies” on anyone at all?

Store trading hours in the ACT are de-regulated, store owners have the right to open their stores whenever they like. If a Christian chooses to close their store to observe Easter, that is THEIR choice – it is not a choice that has been made by government. Just as if a Muslim chooses to open their store, that is also THEIR choice.

If a Muslim opens their store on Good Friday then they also get to choose not to pay penalty rates to staff?
Interesting that stores have to pay a excess to not observe Easter?

Did you get paid for not going into work on Friday? or This coming Monday?

12 public holidays in 2013, In the six months starting from 25/12/12 there are 10 holidays, and in the following 6 months there are 2, for a back to back weekend in October.

gungsuperstar10:03 pm 30 Mar 13

Deref said :

gungsuperstar said :

Does mocking people who think differently to you make you feel smarter?

Do you suppose that religious people feel smarter when they impose their mythologies on people who don’t share them?

Except this has already been disproven by most of the comments here – tell me, in what way are religious people “imposing their mythologies” on anyone at all?

Store trading hours in the ACT are de-regulated, store owners have the right to open their stores whenever they like. If a Christian chooses to close their store to observe Easter, that is THEIR choice – it is not a choice that has been made by government. Just as if a Muslim chooses to open their store, that is also THEIR choice.

Try again nimrod. It’s a pointless post going nowhere. This argument has less than nothing to do with the constitution.

gungsuperstar said :

Does mocking people who think differently to you make you feel smarter?

Do you suppose that religious people feel smarter when they impose their mythologies on people who don’t share them?

Well, I found the shops were shut and I had to go to Southlands where Islamics and Buddhists were flagrantly disregarding this unconstitutional law that seeks to impose Christianity on them.

Death is too good for them!

I reckon Jesus Christ should get the Mully over this post …

I actually felt pity for Gooterz, how sad it must be that they cannot go one day without commercial support 🙁

I suggest experiencing nature more, it doesn’t take notice of holidays, daylight savings or even regular business hours!

whitelaughter5:58 pm 30 Mar 13

Pah! What about this weekend foolishness? Sunday is the Christian holy day, Saturday the Jewish holy day – abolish this nonsense!
And bring back slavery, while you’re at it. Given we have a state capital named after a prominent slave trader, Lord Melbourne, we should support his resistance to religious intervention in this completely secular trade.

muscledude_oz3:53 pm 30 Mar 13

schmeah said :

It’s a 4 day weekend so STFU. And ‘everything closed’ funny, I managed to get a cafe breakfast and buy some groceries.

You want ‘everything closed’ for religious observance, try anywhere in Greece on a Sunday.

Everything closed on Good Friday (and Christmas Day) used to cause major drama for a hard core gym addict like me. Thank God for 24 hour gyms and entry by electronic security tag.

AsparagusSyndrome2:50 pm 30 Mar 13

poetix said :

Deref said :

Regardless of its recent hijacking by Christians to celebrate the mythological death and resurrection of their particular imaginary friend, Eostre has always been a celebration of fertility and renewal – hence rabbits and eggs. You can pick any religion you like or none – having a holiday to celebrate the (northern hemisphere) coming of spring seems like a fine idea to me.

The crucifixion and resurrection of course happened in an area with no celebration of ‘Eoster’. The spread of Christian belief gave a totally different meaning to festivals that may have predated it. Now, for some (not the majority, whatever seems to be the case with commenters on RiotACT), it’s just become a celebration of chocolate. (Which you could, at least at one stage, have said had been ‘hijacked’ by Christianity, as chocolate was minding its own business in the Americas around the time of Christ’s life.) There’s nothing saying that an event has to be unambiguously pure in origin to make it significant. That’s a funny notion, ignoring how human institutions work. It says nothing about religion or belief.

OP’s suggestions of having holidays only for purely local events are quite sad. Though if we had had another holiday for Canberra 100, I wouldn’t have minded at all!

“God I love chocolate”. Does that make me religious? I’m glad there’s a series of public holidays for Saint Theobromia. You know, we should put this in the constitution.

gooterz said :

I’d rather have a holiday for something like the bushfire anniversary or the 100 year centenary celebration.

You know… I vaguely remember getting some sort of day off… with fireworks. and lots of ‘100’ signs around.

gungsuperstar12:31 pm 30 Mar 13

Deref said :

Regardless of its recent hijacking by Christians to celebrate the mythological death and resurrection of their particular imaginary friend, Eostre has always been a celebration of fertility and renewal – hence rabbits and eggs. You can pick any religion you like or none – having a holiday to celebrate the (northern hemisphere) coming of spring seems like a fine idea to me.

Does mocking people who think differently to you make you feel smarter?

It’s just that you seem like an arrogant chump.

I’m not a person of faith myself – but live and let live. As I said above, dogmatic atheism is every bit as annoying as dogmatic Christianity – and it’s even more hypocritical.

Deref said :

Regardless of its recent hijacking by Christians to celebrate the mythological death and resurrection of their particular imaginary friend, Eostre has always been a celebration of fertility and renewal – hence rabbits and eggs. You can pick any religion you like or none – having a holiday to celebrate the (northern hemisphere) coming of spring seems like a fine idea to me.

The crucifixion and resurrection of course happened in an area with no celebration of ‘Eoster’. The spread of Christian belief gave a totally different meaning to festivals that may have predated it. Now, for some (not the majority, whatever seems to be the case with commenters on RiotACT), it’s just become a celebration of chocolate. (Which you could, at least at one stage, have said had been ‘hijacked’ by Christianity, as chocolate was minding its own business in the Americas around the time of Christ’s life.) There’s nothing saying that an event has to be unambiguously pure in origin to make it significant. That’s a funny notion, ignoring how human institutions work. It says nothing about religion or belief.

OP’s suggestions of having holidays only for purely local events are quite sad. Though if we had had another holiday for Canberra 100, I wouldn’t have minded at all!

Regardless of its recent hijacking by Christians to celebrate the mythological death and resurrection of their particular imaginary friend, Eostre has always been a celebration of fertility and renewal – hence rabbits and eggs. You can pick any religion you like or none – having a holiday to celebrate the (northern hemisphere) coming of spring seems like a fine idea to me.

gooterz said :

chewy14 said :

Uptight about being 100% wrong?
Seriously, if you think this is an issue and you’re confident of being right, then challenge it in court.
Peanut.

I’d prefer to get extra annual leave off per year, than spend a day where I can’t that much if god forbid I need to buy something all the major stores are closed.

I’d rather have a holiday for something like the bushfire anniversary or the 100 year centenary celebration.

Much case law of the us finds that it does establish a religion and does impose religious observance to make good Friday a holiday.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1225373.html

It seems odd that Australia has no official religion yet half our holidays are Christian religious events.
Are we trying to be one religion or trying to accommodate many?

I’m not sure why buzz819 can’t read.

Firstly, you’ve provided a link from the US which has completely different laws to us.

And secondly dud you even read that link you’ve provided? Notice how they also say that Christmas and Thanksgiving were now seen as secular holidays but Good Friday had never been established in the wider US the same way? The issue in your link was to do with the closing of schools on Good Friday, not with having a public holiday on the same day.

And its funny that every shop was apparently closed yesterday. I could have sworn I went to the movies, had a couple of beers at the pub and then got some takeaway on the way home.

Friday could be called a religious holiday (if only it was closer to the Passover event it is meant to represent, and not always on Friday), but Saturday and Monday? Not a lot of theological reasoning behind those.

OP: your slip is showing. You seem to be more upset about one public holiday than an entire calendar with gods’ names sprinkled liberally throughout.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Can we all agree that it’s a holiday based on fiction. When can we get a holiday based on something good? Like Ned starkes beheading day! Far more exciting than boring old roman run of the mill death fantasy.

No I won’t agree with you that easter is based on fiction.

I do however think that having a holiday for the Queen’s birthday is silly. while she is the queen of this country, do many care anymore?

I can make this very simple for the OP.

The provision of the Constitution prevent the Commonwealth from doing those things the provision specifies.

The provision specifically does not impose any restrictions on the states, who actually make laws over regulation of retail trading hours.

So while I do find the posts debating what can be defined as religious observance very interesting, it doesn’t matter. On the fundamental point of law, the OP has it wrong.

Instant Mash said :

Call me naive, but is there actually any law to prevent people from opening their business today?

No, retail trading hours in the ACT are totally deregulated. Anyone with a shopping centre or stand-alone store can open it whenever they want, including Good Friday, Christmas Day, and any other religious or other public holiday.

chewy14 said :

Uptight about being 100% wrong?
Seriously, if you think this is an issue and you’re confident of being right, then challenge it in court.
Peanut.

I’d prefer to get extra annual leave off per year, than spend a day where I can’t that much if god forbid I need to buy something all the major stores are closed.

I’d rather have a holiday for something like the bushfire anniversary or the 100 year centenary celebration.

Much case law of the us finds that it does establish a religion and does impose religious observance to make good Friday a holiday.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1225373.html

It seems odd that Australia has no official religion yet half our holidays are Christian religious events.
Are we trying to be one religion or trying to accommodate many?

I’m not sure why buzz819 can’t read.

Here_and_Now10:37 pm 29 Mar 13

As I think about it some more, surely there’s not a law requiring the shops to be open. In which case, there’d be nothing keeping them open even if the Constitution did suddenly blank out Good Friday. If they decide to shut, they shut.

(Disclaimer: Not a constitutional lawyer or the manager of a retail outlet.)

Here_and_Now10:32 pm 29 Mar 13

gooterz said :

Shop Trading Act 2008 [NSW] applies to NSW and thus somewhat to the ACT though companies that operate in both and are managed in NSW, etc. All the larger companies don’t open on good Friday (but do on other holidays), and ACT gov doesn’t seem to advertise that stores can be open.

Do the government often advertise that stores can be open? If they do, I’ve missed it. Isn’t it usually the stores themselves that do that?

gooterz said :

Holidays Act 1958, makes reference to “Good Friday”, “the Saturday following Good Friday” , “the Monday following Good Friday”
How does one know the dates of these shifting events (which are tied to the moon) other than their religious observances, the only thing that determines them is the religious event, and its enforced by the forced payment of higher wages.

And that’s a reference that tells you when the day is, it doesn’t validate or invalidate any beliefs behind it. There are plenty of references to religion and such in our day-to-day calendar. I’ve never met an atheist who won’t refer to ‘Thursday’ because Thor’s a god and they don’t believe in him.

Here_and_Now10:31 pm 29 Mar 13

gooterz said :

Shop Trading Act 2008 [NSW] applies to NSW and thus somewhat to the ACT though companies that operate in both and are managed in NSW, etc. All the larger companies don’t open on good Friday (but do on other holidays), and ACT gov doesn’t seem to advertise that stores can be open.

Do the government often advertise that stores can be open? If they do, I’ve missed it. Isn’t it usually the stores themselves that do that?

Holidays Act 1958, makes reference to “Good Friday”, “the Saturday following Good Friday” , “the Monday following Good Friday”
How does one know the dates of these shifting events (which are tied to the moon) other than their religious observances, the only thing that determines them is the religious event, and its enforced by the forced payment of higher wages.

And that’s a reference that tells you when the day is, it doesn’t validate or invalidate any beliefs behind it. There are plenty of references to religion and such in our day-to-day calendar. I’ve never met an atheist who won’t refer to ‘Thursday’ because Thor’s a god and they don’t believe in him.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd10:24 pm 29 Mar 13

Can we all agree that it’s a holiday based on fiction. When can we get a holiday based on something good? Like Ned starkes beheading day! Far more exciting than boring old roman run of the mill death fantasy.

gooterz said :

buzz819 said :

[
Oh I should point out again, you’re a git and you’re wrong.

Uptight about a religious event?

Uptight about being 100% wrong?

Seriously, if you think this is an issue and you’re confident of being right, then challenge it in court.

Peanut.

gooterz said :

buzz819 said :

[
Oh I should point out again, you’re a git and you’re wrong.

Uptight about a religious event?

No, just sick and tired of people who read something they don’t understand and try and apply it to something with some similar words in it….

Instant Mash8:45 pm 29 Mar 13

Call me naive, but is there actually any law to prevent people from opening their business today?

buzz819 said :

[
Oh I should point out again, you’re a git and you’re wrong.

Uptight about a religious event?

buzz819 said :

You are wrong again, these events do not force you to observe the religious event, they do not make a law creating a religion and they do not make a law that prohibiting a religion.

Care to explain these exceptions to liquor licencing times, then?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/consol_reg/lr2010198/sch2.html

That law actually grants [i]more[/i] access to alcohol on December 24 and the day following, so it’s not a bad law, but why is December 24 singled out for special attention in the first place? Why not have the same access every day of the year?

Skidbladnir said :

What bulls*** is this?
Have you just discovered a law relating to religion and thought it was good enough to grind your axe against?

Get off my internet and back into your sheltered workshop.

Give that man a cigar.

+1

It’s a 4 day weekend so STFU. And ‘everything closed’ funny, I managed to get a cafe breakfast and buy some groceries.

You want ‘everything closed’ for religious observance, try anywhere in Greece on a Sunday.

gungsuperstar8:02 pm 29 Mar 13

Preachers of dogmatic atheism are clearly much more hip and cool than preachers of dogmatic Christianity.

And they aren’t at all hypocritical.

gooterz said :

Shop Trading Act 2008 [NSW] applies to NSW and thus somewhat to the ACT though companies that operate in both and are managed in NSW, etc. All the larger companies don’t open on good Friday (but do on other holidays), and ACT gov doesn’t seem to advertise that stores can be open.

Holidays Act 1958, makes reference to “Good Friday”, “the Saturday following Good Friday” , “the Monday following Good Friday”
How does one know the dates of these shifting events (which are tied to the moon) other than their religious observances, the only thing that determines them is the religious event, and its enforced by the forced payment of higher wages.

You are wrong again, these events do not force you to observe the religious event, they do not make a law creating a religion and they do not make a law that prohibiting a religion.

They make a holiday determined by the moon yes, is that any different from saying that Canberra Day is the 2nd Monday in March, the Queens Bday Holiday the 2nd Monday in June, Family and Community Day, the first Monday in October…. They also do not make me have to observe a religion.

This piece of legislation that you are talking about has nothing to do with Public holidays. FYI NSW legislation is not followed in the ACT and can’t be enforced, so there is no point bringing it up.

Oh I should point out again, you’re a git and you’re wrong.

Shop Trading Act 2008 [NSW] applies to NSW and thus somewhat to the ACT though companies that operate in both and are managed in NSW, etc. All the larger companies don’t open on good Friday (but do on other holidays), and ACT gov doesn’t seem to advertise that stores can be open.

Holidays Act 1958, makes reference to “Good Friday”, “the Saturday following Good Friday” , “the Monday following Good Friday”
How does one know the dates of these shifting events (which are tied to the moon) other than their religious observances, the only thing that determines them is the religious event, and its enforced by the forced payment of higher wages.

If you were in retail would you open your shop on a day where half the city has left town and the remaining potential customers are self righteous whiners?

bush lawyers are my favourite kind of lawyers.

What bulls*** is this?
Have you just discovered a law relating to religion and thought it was good enough to grind your axe against?

Get off my internet and back into your sheltered workshop.

Lets see…

The Commonwealth shall not make any law establishing any religion – does Good Friday do that….. Nope….

The Commonwealth shall not make any law imposing any religious observance – does Good Frida do that? …. Nope, you will find that it is classed as a public holiday, but like ANZAC Day, Melbourne Cup Day (Melbourne) and Family picnic day, you don’t have to go to church or undertake any religious observance – Collective agreements etc. that workers sign make it a day that shops are closed.

The Commonwealth shall not make any law prohibiting the free exercise of any religion – Good Friday – Nope still no laws made in relation to that, although my gym was shut so I couldn’t exercise, but in saying that I’m not religious…

No religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust…. Good Friday – still not really covered in that, cause it’s not really part of a job application.

So just because you found a piece of legislation that says something about religion, it does not mean that because of a religious holiday, that piece of legislation is pertinent. If that were the case then the calendar would not be able to be used, gay marriage would be legal blah blah blah….

moneypenny26126:03 pm 29 Mar 13

“It’s the Constitution. It’s Mabo… it’s the vibe.” — The Castle

What law has the Commonwealth made that infringes section 116 of the Constitution?

Here shops are closed because their owners choose not to open today. God forbid if shop owners or workers want a holiday too. (And… god bless penalty rates)

AFAIK there are no laws in the ACT that require you to be a Christian, nor laws that restrict shop trading hours.

In other states there are restrictive shop trading laws – but this does not force religious observance either. If you are in Queanbeyan you are not legally required to attend church today or read the bible.

Nice try though.

Enjoy your freedom. Have fun shopping tomorrow.

PrinceOfAles5:55 pm 29 Mar 13

Which law is preventing a store from opening on Easter? Who is forcing you to observe Easter? Can`t you go a single day without having to buy something? Does your life really suck so badly that work is the only thing that keeps you going?

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