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“Greener” Electricity in the ACT – At What Cost ??

By rommeldog56 11 March 2014 42

A while back, I recall the ACT Government proudly announcing that the feed in tarriff to make the Royalla Solar Farm economically viable, would add about $13 pa to everyone’s electricity bill in the ACT.   Doesn’t sound like much, does it.   But, multiply that by the number of Solar Farms planned ???  It must be getting up towards a permanent $100pa increase to each electricity bill.

Now, the ACT Government has announced some other hair brained scheme to burn rubbish (i think ?) and use the emissions to create electricity.   But, Rattenbury hasn’t announced how much this new scheme will add to each electricity bill pa.

So, why doesn’t Rattenbury release the aggregate impact of alternative sources for generating electricity on all our electricity bills ?????    Surely, they must know !     But why worry us with the potential impact of that on employment in the Territory, on families, on self funded retirees, on pensioners and those already struggling with the cost of living impact of  constant rises in ACT Government charges and Annual Rates !   I’m sure we are all too busy to consider that anyway.

 

 


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“Greener” Electricity in the ACT – At What Cost ??
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howeph 8:34 pm 17 Mar 14

dungfungus said :

But isn’t all this solar and wind power exclusively for the ACT?

No. All the energy of the eastern states, including the ACT, is dispatched and consumed through the grid and traded on the NEM.

dungfungus said :

I thought Corbell’s mission was to make the ACT almost totally reliant on renewables so there won’t be any left over to sell (at a discounted price) to the grid.

The point is not to have surplus to sell, but rather to displace CO2 emitting fossil fuels. Wind and solar renewables will always displace fossil fuels because their marginal cost is zero.

dungfungus said :

By the way, while you may say now there is plenty of heavy industry around the country, this is all about to change so what is the point of increasing generation of electricity anyhow?

The point is not to increase capacity. The point is to transition to energy sources that don’t emit green house gasses.

Despite what you might think Dungfungus, the government isn’t doing all this for “shits and giggles”. The government is implementing policies to effect an efficient transformation of the energy sector because that’s what the scientist and economists agree must be done. Why on Earth would they want to do this – suffering all the political and budget costs – if they didn’t agree with the experts that such change was necessary?

dungfungus 6:00 pm 17 Mar 14

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

Chop71 said :

It costs a lot to feel warm and fuzzy in this town.

According to some people on this thread the cost is “zero”.
Someone else has to pay for it somehow.

Source?

From one of your own posts:
“…. wind and solar’s marginal cost of energy is zero”.

You do know what marginal costs are don’t you?

Qualifying the word “costs” with the adjective “marginal” could mean anything you want it to be.

No, it has a very specific meaning – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_cost.

So I’ll take it that the answer to my question is “No, you don’t understand what marginal costs are”.

dungfungus said :

It’s a bit like the terminolgy “non-monetised costs” that the ACT Capital Metro Agency use to confuse the issue of the real costs of the “must have” light rail.

I’m sorry if being precise in the way I use terminology confuses you. However grown-ups (and I’m not talking about age) use precise language and terminology when discussing complex ideas and issues. If you want to make constructive contributions you’ll just have to suck it up and deal with it.

And no red herrings please. We are not talking about light rail.

Jeez, yet another elitist thinker.

Pork Hunt 5:49 pm 17 Mar 14

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Masquara said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

Can you post evidence of labor and greens stealing from your dad?

I just love the way the Labor/Green lefties claim that solar energy is going to be cheap – then charge the poor extra for “green” energy. FAIL!

Can you post evidence the poor are being charged extra?

Perhaps we are all being charged extra but the poor cannot absorb the increase like the rest who are more fortunate. (Source: my opinion)

howeph 2:07 pm 17 Mar 14

dungfungus said :

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

Chop71 said :

It costs a lot to feel warm and fuzzy in this town.

According to some people on this thread the cost is “zero”.
Someone else has to pay for it somehow.

Source?

From one of your own posts:
“…. wind and solar’s marginal cost of energy is zero”.

You do know what marginal costs are don’t you?

Qualifying the word “costs” with the adjective “marginal” could mean anything you want it to be.

No, it has a very specific meaning – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_cost.

So I’ll take it that the answer to my question is “No, you don’t understand what marginal costs are”.

dungfungus said :

It’s a bit like the terminolgy “non-monetised costs” that the ACT Capital Metro Agency use to confuse the issue of the real costs of the “must have” light rail.

I’m sorry if being precise in the way I use terminology confuses you. However grown-ups (and I’m not talking about age) use precise language and terminology when discussing complex ideas and issues. If you want to make constructive contributions you’ll just have to suck it up and deal with it.

And no red herrings please. We are not talking about light rail.

dungfungus 1:25 pm 17 Mar 14

arescarti42 said :

dungfungus said :

And what industries are there in the ACT that use massive amounts of grid power in daylight hours?

Next to none probably, however that’s fairly irrelevant. As part of the National Electricity Market, electricity produced in the ACT can be transmitted as far north as remote far north Queensland, as far south as Tasmania, as far west as Port Augusta, and anywhere in between.

Plenty of heavy industry happening around the rest of the country…

But isn’t all this solar and wind power exclusively for the ACT? I thought Corbell’s mission was to make the ACT almost totally reliant on renewables so there won’t be any left over to sell (at a discounted price) to the grid.
By the way, while you may say now there is plenty of heavy industry around the country, this is all about to change so what is the point of increasing generation of electricity anyhow?

arescarti42 11:43 am 17 Mar 14

dungfungus said :

And what industries are there in the ACT that use massive amounts of grid power in daylight hours?

Next to none probably, however that’s fairly irrelevant. As part of the National Electricity Market, electricity produced in the ACT can be transmitted as far north as remote far north Queensland, as far south as Tasmania, as far west as Port Augusta, and anywhere in between.

Plenty of heavy industry happening around the rest of the country…

dungfungus 11:22 am 17 Mar 14

watto23 said :

dungfungus said :

arescarti42 said :

The number one reason why retail electricity costs have been escalating in recent years is due to network charges. The existing regulatory regime essentially rewards network firms for over investing in network infrastructure passing the cost along to consumers.

The bulk of your power bill is paying for poles and wires, not generation or the carbon tax or renewable or anything else. If you’re concerned about increasing power costs, then that’s where you should focus your energy.

dungfungus said :

The problem with the current ACT government’s foray in to solar power is that we will be overweighted with solar energy in off-peak daylight hours and no one on the grid will want to buy it.

There are no off peak daylight hours. It’s true that household use spikes in the morning and evening, but demand is strong from 9-5 due to industry/business/retail being online. In fact when electricity spot prices are highest is usually mid afternoon on very hot days in summer, when everyone is running their ACs full bore, and you have pretty much everyone, households, retail, industry, etc online. That’s also when output from solar is at its greatest.

The bigger problem with the ACT Government’s renewable ambitions is that if their goal is to reduce the ACTs CO2 emissions, investing in solar is a pretty cost-ineffective way to do so.

And what industries are there in the ACT that use massive amounts of grid power in daylight hours?

Well given the amount of of heating and cooling going on in Canberra, that tends to produce a pretty good load.

Industries???????

watto23 9:43 am 17 Mar 14

dungfungus said :

arescarti42 said :

The number one reason why retail electricity costs have been escalating in recent years is due to network charges. The existing regulatory regime essentially rewards network firms for over investing in network infrastructure passing the cost along to consumers.

The bulk of your power bill is paying for poles and wires, not generation or the carbon tax or renewable or anything else. If you’re concerned about increasing power costs, then that’s where you should focus your energy.

dungfungus said :

The problem with the current ACT government’s foray in to solar power is that we will be overweighted with solar energy in off-peak daylight hours and no one on the grid will want to buy it.

There are no off peak daylight hours. It’s true that household use spikes in the morning and evening, but demand is strong from 9-5 due to industry/business/retail being online. In fact when electricity spot prices are highest is usually mid afternoon on very hot days in summer, when everyone is running their ACs full bore, and you have pretty much everyone, households, retail, industry, etc online. That’s also when output from solar is at its greatest.

The bigger problem with the ACT Government’s renewable ambitions is that if their goal is to reduce the ACTs CO2 emissions, investing in solar is a pretty cost-ineffective way to do so.

And what industries are there in the ACT that use massive amounts of grid power in daylight hours?

Well given the amount of of heating and cooling going on in Canberra, that tends to produce a pretty good load.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd 9:38 am 17 Mar 14

Masquara said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

Can you post evidence of labor and greens stealing from your dad?

I just love the way the Labor/Green lefties claim that solar energy is going to be cheap – then charge the poor extra for “green” energy. FAIL!

Can you post evidence the poor are being charged extra?

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd 9:37 am 17 Mar 14

gazket said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

Can you post evidence of labor and greens stealing from your dad?

Labour Greens carbon tax, the biggest fraud and theft in Australian history.

Can you post evidence though?

dungfungus 7:52 am 17 Mar 14

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

Chop71 said :

It costs a lot to feel warm and fuzzy in this town.

According to some people on this thread the cost is “zero”.
Someone else has to pay for it somehow.

Source?

From one of your own posts:
“…. wind and solar’s marginal cost of energy is zero”.

You do know what marginal costs are don’t you?

Qualifying the word “costs” with the adjective “marginal” could mean anything you want it to be.
It’s a bit like the terminolgy “non-monetised costs” that the ACT Capital Metro Agency use to confuse the issue of the real costs of the “must have” light rail.

dungfungus 6:41 am 17 Mar 14

arescarti42 said :

The number one reason why retail electricity costs have been escalating in recent years is due to network charges. The existing regulatory regime essentially rewards network firms for over investing in network infrastructure passing the cost along to consumers.

The bulk of your power bill is paying for poles and wires, not generation or the carbon tax or renewable or anything else. If you’re concerned about increasing power costs, then that’s where you should focus your energy.

dungfungus said :

The problem with the current ACT government’s foray in to solar power is that we will be overweighted with solar energy in off-peak daylight hours and no one on the grid will want to buy it.

There are no off peak daylight hours. It’s true that household use spikes in the morning and evening, but demand is strong from 9-5 due to industry/business/retail being online. In fact when electricity spot prices are highest is usually mid afternoon on very hot days in summer, when everyone is running their ACs full bore, and you have pretty much everyone, households, retail, industry, etc online. That’s also when output from solar is at its greatest.

The bigger problem with the ACT Government’s renewable ambitions is that if their goal is to reduce the ACTs CO2 emissions, investing in solar is a pretty cost-ineffective way to do so.

And what industries are there in the ACT that use massive amounts of grid power in daylight hours?

gazket 11:41 pm 16 Mar 14

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

Can you post evidence of labor and greens stealing from your dad?

Labour Greens carbon tax, the biggest fraud and theft in Australian history.

Masquara 9:59 pm 16 Mar 14

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

Can you post evidence of labor and greens stealing from your dad?

I just love the way the Labor/Green lefties claim that solar energy is going to be cheap – then charge the poor extra for “green” energy. FAIL!

howeph 2:30 pm 16 Mar 14

dungfungus said :

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

Chop71 said :

It costs a lot to feel warm and fuzzy in this town.

According to some people on this thread the cost is “zero”.
Someone else has to pay for it somehow.

Source?

From one of your own posts:
“…. wind and solar’s marginal cost of energy is zero”.

You do know what marginal costs are don’t you?

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd 8:32 am 16 Mar 14

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

Can you post evidence of labor and greens stealing from your dad?

laraeddy 11:39 pm 15 Mar 14

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

And in his 70s, my dear old dad used to get totally freaked out by ATM machines, especially late at night (well, as late as 70-odd year old people stay out at night – but then sometimes it did get dark on a winter night coming home from the hospital). Rather than play paranoid freak games, I’d actually go up to the machine with him and be there if he needed some reassurance. Another way would have been to contribute to his fear through the sort of crazy, ranting fear-mongering which you have made very clear to us all here.

But then, of course, ATMs aren’t some horrible ‘Labo(u)r Green’ conspiracy – whatever the hell that means. No, they were very democratically made available to us via election or some form of community agreement, and thanks to the good graces of the various mega-banks that we do elect on a such a regular basis, and who are so keen to look after our interests so unselfishly. I wonder what you would think about the ACT Govt charging you $2 or $3 for every time your wanted to get access to your own stuff …… Now that might be worth a rant on here – but no, silence on that sort of thing. I’d be kinda happy to see this mythical “Labo(u)r Green” conspiracy set up a toll booth on your driveway and charge you a couple of bucks to drive in – it would amount to the same thing, and be something worth complaining about.

And if you want to know who is making it hard for your dad to eat properly, I’d actually take more of a look at why Woollies and Coles pay farmers one fifth of bugger all for their produce and drive them into poverty too – and then peddle it to us at many times the price.

Anyone who has actually spent three nanoseconds looking at Aus politics at the moment will know that those two parties aren’t actually best friends. If I were Shane Rattenbury I would probably not be too confident of still being a Minister for much longer than about 4 months out from the next ACT election – no matter how good a job he might have done in the meantime.

The world moves on, dear soul, and it you want to vent your anger at it by spreading crippling anxiety through your defenseless older relatives, that is your, and your family’s, business. Personally, I don’t think some temporary political construct that feeds ugly worms in your ‘imagination’ (and my goodness, that is a terrible use of that otherwise wonderful word) has much of a case to answer.

Or maybe you are just some stooge trolling in here ??

dungfungus 7:32 am 15 Mar 14

gazket said :

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

I’ll bet your father has always been a Labor voter.

dungfungus 7:30 am 15 Mar 14

howeph said :

dungfungus said :

Chop71 said :

It costs a lot to feel warm and fuzzy in this town.

According to some people on this thread the cost is “zero”.
Someone else has to pay for it somehow.

Source?

From one of your own posts:
“…. wind and solar’s marginal cost of energy is zero”.

gazket 4:13 pm 14 Mar 14

no body was buying arty farty green energy from ACTEW so now the Labour Greens are forcing it on us.

Labour Greens are taking food from poor people and pensioners table. they have no idea what so ever how people are already squeezing every dollar they have to pay their bills and keep eating. old age pensioners are turning off their TV and lights and going to bed at sundown so they can still afford to buy can food and not have to eat 2 minute noodles.

and before some lefty bleets “source” my 73 years old deaf from birth father does the above, the poor old guy freaks out if I turn the TV when I visit.

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