10 October 2009

Hargreaves exits stage right

| Gungahlin Al
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[First filed: Oct 9, 2009 @ 8:21]

John Hargreaves Some would say that it was inevitable following a long list of difficult episodes caused to the ALP government, but there was never any certainty given the man is as stoic as they come.

But it has finally come to pass that John Hargreaves is stepping down from the ministry, as reported by the ABC this morning.

There is no news on the ministry replacement as yet. What do people think? Joy Burch or Mary Porter?

Certainly Mary must have sensed the winds of change and has been bumping up her media releases and profile lately…

Meanwhile the Liberals have been pressuring for Hargreaves to serve out his term. Who *was* next on the list? They a bit concerned about that option or something?

And how would John handle the next few years on the “backbench” for all that means in the ACT (apart from a lot lower pay packet)?

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There was a photo of Hargreaves in yesterday’s Canberra Times stroking his pussy!

#53 +1

I was particularly unimpressed by a meeting I attended a couple of years ago, when the merits or otherwise of a dragway on the horse paddocks near Rose Cottage were being debated.

An abysmal night weather-wise, a very ccrowded room, and noisy, robust discussion, chaired by Lissimore.

About 3/4 of an hour in, Hargreaves got to his feet and stated that there was absolutely no way the proposal could get up, as it was totally outside the land use that applied to the site. On questioning, he admitted he had this information the previous day, but had unfortunately found himself unable to fax these details to the meeting organisers during the following 24 hours.

Everybody at the meeting was on a fool’s errand, courtesy of Hargreaves. A totally wasted evening, for a large number of people. Such is the arrogance we are hopefully seeing the back of.

It’s spelt ‘bogans’, and I might add that it’s particularly poor form to base an argument on the statement that ‘everyone who disagrees with me is just a dumb bogan’.

I know a whole buncha bogans who are a damn-side smarter than to try to pull something like that.

It is interesting to see the Hargreaves’ supporters comments. It confirms my view that it is the bogons of Tuggeranong who keep voting this character back in. They seem to have the memory of a goldfish and can only remember the last Hargreave indiscretion.

There is a long list of them which includes the Grassby statue, the Griffith library, Tharwa bridge/school and community, the downsized prison (so it would come in on budget), the official opening of a non-working prison, driving-over-the limit, the fireworks decision without any details of the results of community consultation, and so on.

Sure, it might be more boring without the guy and I have nothing against him as a ordinary person. But we need more than “ordinary” people in government. We badly need people with intellect who can promote good policy. I would rather be bored without Hargreaves than have to be continuing to put up with wasteful, expensive and stupid policy decisions which have cost the ACT taxpayers multi-million dollar debacles that have to be paid for. Examples are Firelink, Rhodium, the Busways Project, the GDE, the Olympic Torch relay, the Grassby statue, the Griffith Library, various school closures, etc, etc, all of which Hargreaves would have been involved in to a larger or smaller extent.

I just hope that we can start getting some smarter people into the Assembly rather than having having “good guys” voted in repeatedly by bogons. Better still, self-government should be abolished if we can’t get better people into the Assembly than what we have in at present. We must be running neck and neck with the NSW Government in the laughing stock stakes.

I imagine it would be deeply inappropriate to suggest Hargreaves’ attitude to public transport could be due to his factional antipathy towards the TWU; so I won’t suggest it.

Extra lanes on Drakeford Drive? I missed that one… are you talking about the duplication which was planned before the road was originally sealed? For as long as I remember, Drakeford Drive has been three lanes each direction all the way from Sulwood Drive down to the bottom end of Kambah where it eventually turned into a single-carriageway two-lane road going past Oxley. Then there was the duplication (which was planned by the NCDC back in the days when Canberra had competent urban planners) – folks who were around at the time will remember that the route for the second carriageway was cleared and levelled at the same time as the first carriageay, and there were even pylons in place for the second span of the bridge. The successful duplication of Drakeford Drive was not a success of any local government.

Or is my memory failing me, and there are actually extra lanes on the road I use every day that I just haven’t noticed?

Gungahlin Al10:34 am 12 Oct 09

I lean towards JC’s position on responsibility. It isn’t possible for a minister to be across every thing the government agency does, and it is unreasonable to expect them to take a personal hit for everything that happens. But some things clearly should come home to roost. E.g. if I send a major document to the MO for vetting/approval, the advisers go through it, we amend it accordingly and the MO then signs it off, then the Minister owns that document and anything that spills out of it. But if I go make a change of some substance after the MO sign-off without sending it back up, and that change goes pear-shaped, then you can’t hold them responsible for that.

But John is bowing out because the weight of things that he did himself, said himself (or didn’t say), etc that led to criticism outweighing the good work he did. And ultimately his efforts to style himself as an old-fashioned bloke backfired with an electorate that see it more as an inability to move with changed community attitudes.

My personal concerns with John relate primarily to his out-of-touch attitudes to his former transport portfolio: being wedded to an inappropriate (and wrong) “Canberra was designed for cars and always will be” mentality, and inability to realise that a serious public transport solution is the only sustainable way forward for this town, and that just continuing to build more and bigger roads will ultimately fail, and break the budget as it does so.

housebound said :

Isn’t Ministerial responsibility for the operation of their portfolios part of the Westminster system of government? Otherwise, we are back to the days of pre-self-government – when departments could do what they want with very little accountability (until someone complained).

Of course, it depends a bit on the scale of the offense, but ministers are increasingly throwing up their hands and claiming they can’t be responsible for every little departmental error.

In real life it isn’t as simple as that. Ministers have bugger all power over their departments. They can merely control what goes in through budget and what comes out through implementation of their policies.

There is just no way on earth they can have any direct control and hence responsibility for what happens deep in the department.

Isn’t Ministerial responsibility for the operation of their portfolios part of the Westminster system of government? Otherwise, we are back to the days of pre-self-government – when departments could do what they want with very little accountability (until someone complained).

Of course, it depends a bit on the scale of the offense, but ministers are increasingly throwing up their hands and claiming they can’t be responsible for every little departmental error.

RayP said :

JC you seem to misunderstand the responsibilities of a Minister. It is more than intervening in individual cases when he wants to. As the Minister responsible for Housing ACT he is responsible for ensuring that Housing ACT is a competently run agency with competent staff.

By your statement that “he took care of an issue that my old mum had with the incompetents that work for the housing department” you accept that he failed fufil his general responsibility to ensure competent management of Housing ACT.

No I understand fully. I work in government and see first hand what a minister can and cannot do and how many departments are laws unto their own. In no way shape or form can a Minister be personally responsible for the staff that work for his department, save the department head. It isn’t like they employed them and it isn’t like they can sack them either, so what control do you think a Minister has?

Also we live in a world of trial by media and negativity. Unfortunately the media (and the general public) has no idea how government really works, coupled with the fact that most opposition parties (Labor or Liberal) make use of the media for cheap point scoring exercises to show the government of the day to be worse that what they really are.

Don’t beleive me? Ask yourself how many times you have heard an opposition party ask for someone to resign over an issue, then ask yourself if an opposition party ever has anything positive to say even about their own policies. Politics these days is all about attacking the party in power. I think in Canberra as we have so many government workers this tactic doesn’t work as well, so it is no wonder the ACT Libs have been kept out of power so long.

In the case I mentioned, yes he took control of the situation in my mums specific case. As I said this is local government we are talking about, so it is good to see that he was available to speak personally about the issue to mum and take control of it. Behind the scenes I just hope the staff learned from the situation and don’t make the same mistake again.

“He didn’t do anything anyone else wouldn’t do and just because someone is a politician doesn’t make them any different to anyone else.”

Because everyone is drink driving nowadays, and yes, it does make them different to everyone else because of the power and responsibility they have

JC you seem to misunderstand the responsibilities of a Minister. It is more than intervening in individual cases when he wants to. As the Minister responsible for Housing ACT he is responsible for ensuring that Housing ACT is a competently run agency with competent staff.

By your statement that “he took care of an issue that my old mum had with the incompetents that work for the housing department” you accept that he failed fufil his general responsibility to ensure competent management of Housing ACT.

Goodbye to the big-mouth who couldn’t hold his p*ss

I will stand up for him as well. As housing minister he took care of an issue that my old mum had with the incompetents that work for the housing department.

Mum rang his office, left a message and 10 minutes later he personally called back. Then the next day he called back again in a conference call with someone senior in housing and organised to have the old girl’s issue got sorted. Then a week later rang to make sure that housing had done what they promised to do.

To me that is what being a (local government) minister is all about. All the carry on in the media over his behavior is just bullshit. He didn’t do anything anyone else wouldn’t do and just because someone is a politician doesn’t make them any different to anyone else. Sometimes I wonder if the pressure we and the media put on politicians to conform puts off a lot of people that would make a good politician.

He did change a few rules regarding housing, for example, you cannot swap with someone else interstate, I can’t understand why they would change this, as in certain circumstances you need to move away for personal reasons

How on earth can a group as small as ACT Labor have internal factions?

It’s about time, he should never been voted back in the first place. It wouldn’t be surpising to see him back in a couple of months, though given that he’s unlikely to contest the next election they will need one or both of the Labor backbencher need a ministerial portfolio to keep their seat as I doubt they will be as lucky as last year.

“And yes, of course I’m serious about the roadworks – there used to be a traffic jam every arvo on Drakeford Drive before they added the extra lanes, and every morning and night on Tharwa Drive before they added the extra lanes. Why wouldn’t I be happy about not having to sit in that anymore??”

You are not a swinger voter are you? Nor a realist about the grind outside peak-hour. Many of us do shift work, and Drakeford Drive especially does not work.

Follow Hargreaves into obscurity you simpleton.

sexynotsmart9:02 pm 09 Oct 09

Please o please retire the moustache too!

The basic problem for Porter is that it makes political sense to have at least one minister in each of the three electorates. With Hargreaves out of the ministry, Burch has to replace him to keep a minister in Brindabella.

If Stanhope was to leave the ministry, but stay in the Assembly, this logic would work in Porters favour. She would then have to go into the Ministry to keep a Minister in Ginninderra.

The small numbers in the Assembly and caucus mean that there is little scope for flexibility in these decisions.

George said :

I think Mary has proved that she is a hard working and dedicated local member and should come off the bench before Burch but we all know that the ALP reward factionalism over talent.

Mary Porter is a very active member of the right, and always has been.

icantbelieveitsnotbutter4:17 pm 09 Oct 09

housebound said :

Can someone tell me why Joy Burch would be the favourite rather than Mary Porter? I don’t really know either of them, but Porter has been there for much longer and she appears to still be in touch with her electorate.

+1

Does JH think that either his behaviour will improve or the media will stop paying attention to it just because he’s on the back bench.

Be gone I say. Let Mick Gentleman come back and continue his good work as a true environmental activist with a bit of clout – as opposed to that other weak mob.

Can someone tell me why Joy Burch would be the favourite rather than Mary Porter? I don’t really know either of them, but Porter has been there for much longer and she appears to still be in touch with her electorate.

Close, Gungahlin Al, but not quite. The countback is done only on Hargreaves’ bundle of votes, not an overall recount. While theoretically possible for someone outside of Labor to be elected (especially if no ALP types renominated), the reality is that it will be one of the other ALP candidates. It’s a common misconception that the votes of a retiring member are redistributed as a top up to the recorded vote of candidates. It’s a reasonable rule of thumb to say that the next highest scoring ALP candidate will get the gig, but not certain. Unfortunately, as Hargreaves didn’t get an overquata there’s no way of calculating how his preferences went.

Gungahlin Al3:57 pm 09 Oct 09

cranky said :

And can he please take the bronze abomination with him.

We’ll need some bronze for the bunyip statue, so it won’t be wasted…

And can he please take the bronze abomination with him.

George said :

I think Mary has proved that she is a hard working and dedicated local member and should come off the bench before Burch but we all know that the ALP reward factionalism over talent.

Of course the Liberals don’t do that!!!!!!

Gungahlin Al3:36 pm 09 Oct 09

jimbocool said :

A little bit hard to say for sure, but it should be Mick Gentleman as next one in. Libs should be cheering – Gentleman’s a lightweight, nowhere near the (mysteriously high) vote pulling power of Hargreaves. If there isn’t a definitive lead candidate at the next election for the ALP in Brindabella they may struggle a bit.

The Election Commission report explains (???) the process for filling a vacancy, using a countback only including any of the candidates from the lst election who indicate they wish to contest the vacancy. So if John were to toss it in altogether, for starters, they have to ask who wants in? The preference distribution had Mick Gentleman, Val Jeffery and Steve Pratt as the last three excluded in reverse order.

Mick I think was a left-leaning ALP, who (admirably in my opinion) championed the gross feed-in tariff – that pulls him out of the light-weight stakes I believe. Not sure whether the right-faction head would be prepared to step aside on the basis that Mick might get in though. But that doesn’t seem a given either – could Val or Pratt get a look in? Haven’t had the time or inclination to look that closely…

Anyway, I for one am personally happy to see the person who said “Canberra was designed for cars and always will be a car city” and “there won’t be a bus lane or rail down the middle of Northbourne Avenue while I’m around” out of Cabinet and hopefully then no longer in a position to continue to influence transport design in a town so desperately crying out for vision on the topic.

Stanhope has actually very much left the gate open for Hargreaves to return. Stanhope has given health issues in November 2009 as the reason for Hargreaves standing down as a Minister. This leaves the gate open for Stanhope to say in February 2010 that Hargeaves has now dealt with his health issues and will return to the Ministry.

I think Mary has proved that she is a hard working and dedicated local member and should come off the bench before Burch but we all know that the ALP reward factionalism over talent.

come back? nah, he’s got no ticker… (boom boom)

V twin venom1:30 pm 09 Oct 09

RayP said :

As long as Hargreaves remains in the Assembly it’s possible that he will come back as a Minister.

He is a wily and resilient politician.

At the very least, that possibility will always be there.

There could be something in that RayP. Considering the banner in the background of the photo, they might be archiving him for use later.

icantbelieveitsnotbutter1:21 pm 09 Oct 09

caf said :

Joy Burch is said to be the one with the factional support.

What about Porter… she’s been there what, about 5 years? I say go down to 4 Ministers…

As long as Hargreaves remains in the Assembly it’s possible that he will come back as a Minister.

He is a wily and resilient politician.

At the very least, that possibility will always be there.

Pommy bastard12:59 pm 09 Oct 09

Ah well, politics will be a little bit more boring now.

The spineless Greens have, by acting deviously, got their wish, and spineless Stanhope has caved in to them for fear of losing their support.

Not the way politics should be conducted.

la mente torbida11:56 am 09 Oct 09

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out

Joy Burch is said to be the one with the factional support.

I love this news, I see Hargravy as a stand over wanker (must like Stanhopey-hopefully he goes soon). While Katy G & Simon C are the better minister that Canberrans should adore.

areaman said :

If he was doing what’s good for his party he’d resign from the assembly, but instead he’ll sit on the back bench as that’s what’s good for his faction.

Yes well that will keep the Chiefly one in the chair, JH kep him there and maybe that was the deal. I won’t ask you to vacate your seat, you continue to prop me up.

If he was doing what’s good for his party he’d resign from the assembly, but instead he’ll sit on the back bench as that’s what’s good for his faction.

DarkLadyWolfMother10:47 am 09 Oct 09

I thought the Liberals were calling for his resignation over the last few screwups? Or have I misremembered?

Inappropriate10:16 am 09 Oct 09

Can we have our fireworks back now?

Hargreaves wasn’t Minister for Corrections until after the election, true, but he had been campaigning for a prison here for some time – IIRC from as far back as when he was a Shadow Minister.

And yes, of course I’m serious about the roadworks – there used to be a traffic jam every arvo on Drakeford Drive before they added the extra lanes, and every morning and night on Tharwa Drive before they added the extra lanes. Why wouldn’t I be happy about not having to sit in that anymore??

Does that mean we get our fire works back. I like the idea of fireworks tonight to mark the occasion.

Lol @ Ferret

Well in celebration of John’s departure lets get drunk and play ‘blind cricket’. One of JH’s most memorable utterings.

Well overdue

@ Rosencrantz – that’s a bit bizarre, seeing as Hargreaves wasn’t made Minister for Corrections until *after* the election.

Growling Ferret9:34 am 09 Oct 09

Rosencrantz

That’s nice you support yourself / family member that way. You read like a press release.

Love

The Ferret

Rosencrantz said :

I, for one, think this news is a loss for the ACT. I voted for John Hargreaves and I’ll tell you exactly why: the world class prison that means we stand some chance of rehabilitating our crims rather than sending them to NSW prisons to come back as more skilled crims, the fireworks ban which I support, and his work as Roads Minister on fixing some of the longstanding traffic jams in Tuggeranong which I used to be subjected to every day (like Drakeford Drive, Athllon Drive and Tharwa Drive).

So, the prison, which at the last election was officially opened but was still months from actually being opened? Or the fireworks decision, which I heard no rumours of him banning at the last election (funny that). The road works, well, now I know youre just trolling.

icantbelieveitsnotbutter9:27 am 09 Oct 09

Zed’s crew don’t want Hargreaves gone because it would give the new Member time to make a name for themselves…

Hargreaves is entertaining, it would be a shame to see him go

I, for one, think this news is a loss for the ACT. I voted for John Hargreaves and I’ll tell you exactly why: the world class prison that means we stand some chance of rehabilitating our crims rather than sending them to NSW prisons to come back as more skilled crims, the fireworks ban which I support, and his work as Roads Minister on fixing some of the longstanding traffic jams in Tuggeranong which I used to be subjected to every day (like Drakeford Drive, Athllon Drive and Tharwa Drive).

This place needs more MLAs like Hargreaves who tell it like it is and are genuine human beings, not more people who would say and do anything to get elected.

Best news I’ve had all morning. I imagine that many of his bureaucratic charges might share my sentiments.

A little bit hard to say for sure, but it should be Mick Gentleman as next one in. Libs should be cheering – Gentleman’s a lightweight, nowhere near the (mysteriously high) vote pulling power of Hargreaves. If there isn’t a definitive lead candidate at the next election for the ALP in Brindabella they may struggle a bit.

Might let off some fireworks tonight to mark the occasion

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