31 May 2012

Hep C explosion renews the needle exchange push

| johnboy
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OK, let us return from the kiddy fantasy land in which we can keep drugs and needles out of prisons and have a look at the real world.

The Greens are pointing out that a further 6 cases of Hepatitis C at the prison is a bit of a good reason to start up a needle exchange.

Those of you off in authoritarian dreamland need to remember that the inmates are going to return to society sooner rather than later and how disease infested do you want them to be?

“The facts from overseas prison NSPs are clear – none of the concerns that have been raised about NSPs in the ACT have occurred, and that includes needle stick injuries or using needles as weapons. We also know that introducing NSPs actually increases the uptake of drug treatment programs and that there has not been an increase in drug use.

“This is not an easy issue but it is one where we need to act. Sending people out into the community from prison with a blood borne virus will make their rehabilitation and preventing reoffending significantly harder. This will ultimately cost the community more all around.

“It’s time to stop burying our heads in the sand, listen to the people calling for an NSP and look to the facts from overseas – all that points to implementing an NSP at the AMC”, Ms Bresnan said.

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Proboscus said :

You are boring me Jim Jones so this is the last thing I will say on this issue:

If a needle exchange is brought into the gaol and it doesn’t kerb the “explosion” of cases of blood borne viruses – what then? My guess is a long and costly class action where only lawyers and junkies win.

However, if the program is successful, I will eat generous amounts of humble pie, hail the genius of the soft c**ks on RA and will move my family to Texas.

I can’t possibly reason against such watertight logic.

You are boring me Jim Jones so this is the last thing I will say on this issue:

If a needle exchange is brought into the gaol and it doesn’t kerb the “explosion” of cases of blood borne viruses – what then? My guess is a long and costly class action where only lawyers and junkies win.

However, if the program is successful, I will eat generous amounts of humble pie, hail the genius of the soft c**ks on RA and will move my family to Texas.

You are boring me Jim Jones so this is the last thing I will say on this issue:

If a needle exchange is brought into the gaol, and it doesn’t kerb the “ex

Jim Jones said :

In what way doesn’t it make sense?

Enabling someone to continue behaviour which is dangerous and illegal while in prison doesn’t make sense to me.

Jim Jones said :

The drugs are already there (all this ranting and raving about how prison is supposed to be rah rah rah won’t change this – there isn’t a single drug-free jail in the world). Using dirty needles spreads bloodborne diseases (that then spread further into the community). Using clean needles prevents this spread.

As does choosing to take advantage of free health programs to get clean. No one is forcing prisoners to share needles. Have you EVER met a healthy addict regardless of their use of clean needles?

Jim Jones said :

Comparing it to giving children to sex offenders is relentlessly stupid and offensive.

Thanks for making my point for me. Doing anything that enables an addict to continue being an addict in prison is relentlessly stupid and offensive. Not to mention illegal.

Jim Jones said :

The only thing that doesn’t make sense to me are people who’d rather put their head in the sand that acknowledge reality and try to reduce the instances of disease in the community because they think pointless posturing is more important than real world outcomes.

Agreed. Is there actually any research to support the view that reducing disease in prisons reduced disease in the general community. Yes, I know it sounds sensible but is there any research to back it up?

So if I’ve got your view right, we should provide needles in prisons to protect ourselves right? Seems fairly selfish to me. How about we try and do the right thing by the prisoners?

Do you actually know any prisoners? I only know two and a couple of guards. They all told me quite clearly they think it’s a bad idea to provide needle exchanges. I think this conversation assumes prisoners want this. Maybe someone should ask them. If it’s such a no brainer then why would guards and prisoners be against it. Surely they know a bit more about prison life than we do.

buzz819 said :

I’m going to take a stab in the dark and suggest that maybe proboscus works at the AMC.

Not even close. Like most people on this site I’m just your typical, Canberra shiny bum.

Proboscus said :

Let me answer each of your “facts” in order:

Your Facts 1, 2 & 3: You’re right. It seems impossible to keep drugs out of a gaol but shouldn’t we be assisting junkies (who are usually in custody for crimes related to their drug taking) in rehabilitation instead of promoting a drug taking environment?

Your Fact 4: You said “It’s better to take an action that has positive consequences, rather than do nothing for feat that action would somehow ‘send a message’ about drugs (given that the message is supposedly aimed at people who are already taking drugs in jail and show no signs of stopping – I’d venture to guess that it’s a stupid, pointless message anyway).”

What better action than educating and rehabilitating prisoners to get them off the drugs? You call it stupid and pointless – I say it’s streets ahead of a half-baked needle program which will make working in the gaol unsafe.

Why would you think that this is an either/or situation? How is providing clean needles – so that people who are already injecting drugs can at least do so without spreading disease – incompatible with rehab programs?

And how, precisely, does a needle injecting program make jails unsafe? There are already drugs in the jail, and dirty needles. Somehow introducing clean needles will make the place more dangerous?

Proboscus said :

Your Fact 5: Yes, you are bleating. You and your kind stink of smug, thinking you are solving the problems of the world. You believe you’re helping those who can’t help themselves – yet you mention nothing of the victims of drug addicts (the weak, elderly or disabled) who are often left scarred mentally and physically by your courageous, yet helpless, junkies.

I’d rather ‘bleat’ with some intelligence and logic, than continue to repeat the same tired lines that have done nothing to help the problem, but have been responsible for failure to act and increase the spread of bloodborne disease in the community.

Your appeal to the ‘victims’ is a useless emotional appeal to nothing. Refusing to give people clean needles won’t cure any past crimes – if anything, it prevents people being unwittingly given Hep C or AIDS.

PS – love the fact that you call me a junkie-lover because I’m arguing the rational case. Very cute. I may as well call you someone who loves spreading disease.

Use your head.

Jim Jones said :

The hostility comes from my inability to believe that people won’t bother to address reality and are instead persisting with this fantasy that it’s possible to prevent drugs from getting into jails.

FACT: It’s impossible to stop drugs getting to jails

FACT: There isn’t a single prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

FACT: Raving about how criminals shouldn’t be taking drugs in prison won’t change this in the slightest.

FACT: It’s better to take an action that has positive consequences, rather than do nothing for feat that action would somehow ‘send a message’ about drugs (given that the message is supposedly aimed at people who are already taking drugs in jail and show no signs of stopping – I’d venture to guess that it’s a stupid, pointless message anyway).

FACT: A needle exchange program is not ‘bleating for self-absorbed criminals’. It’s about reducing instances of blood-borne disease in the entire community.

Let me answer each of your “facts” in order:

Your Facts 1, 2 & 3: You’re right. It seems impossible to keep drugs out of a gaol but shouldn’t we be assisting junkies (who are usually in custody for crimes related to their drug taking) in rehabilitation instead of promoting a drug taking environment?

Your Fact 4: You said “It’s better to take an action that has positive consequences, rather than do nothing for feat that action would somehow ‘send a message’ about drugs (given that the message is supposedly aimed at people who are already taking drugs in jail and show no signs of stopping – I’d venture to guess that it’s a stupid, pointless message anyway).”

What better action than educating and rehabilitating prisoners to get them off the drugs? You call it stupid and pointless – I say it’s streets ahead of a half-baked needle program which will make working in the gaol unsafe.

Your Fact 5: Yes, you are bleating. You and your kind stink of smug, thinking you are solving the problems of the world. You believe you’re helping those who can’t help themselves – yet you mention nothing of the victims of drug addicts (the weak, elderly or disabled) who are often left scarred mentally and physically by your courageous, yet helpless, junkies.

Jim Jones said :

Let’s have a gander at the very first line of the OP again:

“OK, let us return from the kiddy fantasy land in which we can keep drugs and needles out of prisons and have a look at the real world.”

Ok, fair enough. But then, does that mean that anyone who has a different point to an OP can be totally bagged out, and should have known not to even bother posting their view – on an Internet forum? Is that what you are saying?
If so, perhaps the OP should just post a ‘statement’ that can’t be responded to, if that statement is gospel…? Wouldn’t that make it easier?
We could all just check RA every now and then to hear ‘the good word’! hahahaha! Too funny! 🙂

From the OP “Those of you off in authoritarian dreamland need to remember that the inmates are going to return to society sooner rather than later and how disease infested do you want them to be?”

Bring in the needle exchange program, but balance it out with the following:

Compulsory weekly drug tests – positive finding in any test then an automatic 6 months (with no remission or parole) is added cumulatively to your sentence. Fail another test, get another 6 months.

Prisoners can choose to use drugs if they want, and can do so with relative safety, but there is a consequence.

Or they can choose not to use the drugs, do their time and leave.

Their choice.

The

I’m going to take a stab in the dark and suggest that maybe proboscus works at the AMC.

Not giving needles to inmates, at an emotional level, seems the right thing to do, for the following reasons, it’s illegal to do drugs, it’s illegal to do drugs in a correctional centre, it’s illegal to have drugs in a correctional centre – but adversely it is illegal to all the same outside of the centre as well. So logically it is the wrong thing to do.

Not giving inmates needles will protect the guards! Well, no, not really, it will make it more likely that the persons who have blood born diseases, and are drug users, will pass on the diseases to others, the more persons in custody with blood born diseases the more likely it is that a guard, welfare worker or someone else at the prison will also get that blood born disease.

Are there corrupt corrections guards? Of course there is, just because they haven’t been caught doesn’t mean they aren’t there. It’s the same as Police, public servants, defence, taxi drivers etc. If people are engaged in a job, there is a chance that one of those people will either, by their own undertaking, or by being stood over, will become corrupt at some level. Whether it is just turning a blind eye, or by actually shipping the drugs in with them.

I think from an intelligence point of view the needle exchange would be great, find out who is swapping needles, then ramp theirs and their associates cells. Of course this would stop people swapping needles, but you know….

Proboscus said :

Jim Jones said :

Proboscus said :

Fact: “Free” needles are provided to junkies in the community and blood borne viruses are still being contracted. Providing them in a gaol is stupid and offensive to normal members of society.

Wow. Needle exchange programs haven’t completely eradicated all bloodborne diseases? Who would have thought it?

Dunno where you’re getting this idea that it’s offensive to everyone. Personally, I find the idea of failing to tackle a health issue for no logical reason both stupid and offensive.

Proboscus said :

Fact:

Junkies in the community are well educated in the risks of sharing needles. Prisoners in the AMC are also well educated about the risks of sharing needles and are given access to bleach, disenfectent, etc, to minimise the risks. You can’t put brains in statues – and you can’t force drug addicts not to share needles safely.

Again – if you can’t distinguish between the actual benefits of reducing harm and the impossibility of eliminating the problem entirely, you’re probably not bright enough to be involved in a policy discussion.

Proboscus said :

Fact: ACT Health have lied before about the spread of blood borne viruses within the AMC before. I suspect that this is more of the same.

Lol. ‘I suspect that this is a lie’. That’s great platform for an argument.

Proboscus said :

Fact: You can everything in place to try and prevent junkies from hurting themselves. But like the current Raiders team – they’ll keep finding new ways of disappointing you.

Seriously – now your ignorance is getting dangerous. Read some basic information (or, if you find reading difficult, perhaps talk to someone involved in the field) about bloodborne diseases. It’s not just junkies that get these diseases. When they get them, they spread into the community. Even if you are one of those brainless dickheads who believes that ‘junkies aren’t human and should all die herp derp’, then at very least I’d assume you’d have some interest in the wellbeing of other people in the community.

Or would you continue the posturing with no evidence beyond why a safe needle injecting room should’t be supplied?

What’s with all hostility? I provide a view different to your own and you start calling me names.

We have probably read the same material in regards to this issue – yeah, I can use Google too – and formed differing opinions (mine being formed by thinking of the safety and welfare of hardworking, law abiding, tax-paying employees of the AMC whilst you are bleating for the self absorbed criminals who refuse to help themselves).

It’s what he does – easier than actually having to form a solid argument.

Let’s have a gander at the very first line of the OP again:

“OK, let us return from the kiddy fantasy land in which we can keep drugs and needles out of prisons and have a look at the real world.”

The hostility comes from my inability to believe that people won’t bother to address reality and are instead persisting with this fantasy that it’s possible to prevent drugs from getting into jails.

FACT: It’s impossible to stop drugs getting to jails

FACT: There isn’t a single prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

FACT: Raving about how criminals shouldn’t be taking drugs in prison won’t change this in the slightest.

FACT: It’s better to take an action that has positive consequences, rather than do nothing for feat that action would somehow ‘send a message’ about drugs (given that the message is supposedly aimed at people who are already taking drugs in jail and show no signs of stopping – I’d venture to guess that it’s a stupid, pointless message anyway).

FACT: A needle exchange program is not ‘bleating for self-absorbed criminals’. It’s about reducing instances of blood-borne disease in the entire community.

Jim Jones said :

Proboscus said :

Fact: “Free” needles are provided to junkies in the community and blood borne viruses are still being contracted. Providing them in a gaol is stupid and offensive to normal members of society.

Wow. Needle exchange programs haven’t completely eradicated all bloodborne diseases? Who would have thought it?

Dunno where you’re getting this idea that it’s offensive to everyone. Personally, I find the idea of failing to tackle a health issue for no logical reason both stupid and offensive.

Proboscus said :

Fact:

Junkies in the community are well educated in the risks of sharing needles. Prisoners in the AMC are also well educated about the risks of sharing needles and are given access to bleach, disenfectent, etc, to minimise the risks. You can’t put brains in statues – and you can’t force drug addicts not to share needles safely.

Again – if you can’t distinguish between the actual benefits of reducing harm and the impossibility of eliminating the problem entirely, you’re probably not bright enough to be involved in a policy discussion.

Proboscus said :

Fact: ACT Health have lied before about the spread of blood borne viruses within the AMC before. I suspect that this is more of the same.

Lol. ‘I suspect that this is a lie’. That’s great platform for an argument.

Proboscus said :

Fact: You can everything in place to try and prevent junkies from hurting themselves. But like the current Raiders team – they’ll keep finding new ways of disappointing you.

Seriously – now your ignorance is getting dangerous. Read some basic information (or, if you find reading difficult, perhaps talk to someone involved in the field) about bloodborne diseases. It’s not just junkies that get these diseases. When they get them, they spread into the community. Even if you are one of those brainless dickheads who believes that ‘junkies aren’t human and should all die herp derp’, then at very least I’d assume you’d have some interest in the wellbeing of other people in the community.

Or would you continue the posturing with no evidence beyond why a safe needle injecting room should’t be supplied?

What’s with all hostility? I provide a view different to your own and you start calling me names.

We have probably read the same material in regards to this issue – yeah, I can use Google too – and formed differing opinions (mine being formed by thinking of the safety and welfare of hardworking, law abiding, tax-paying employees of the AMC whilst you are bleating for the self absorbed criminals who refuse to help themselves).

We should have tougher drug laws or none at all. The wishy washy government can’t have it both ways.

Instead of fighting the symptom why not fight the cause.
Have regular blood/drug tests and anyone who is using gets a longer stay and searched for needles/ denied access and investigated as to the source of the drugs. Guards found supplying should never be able to work for government again, in any capacity. Perhaps cashy rewards for those that lead to outing corruption

Proboscus said :

Fact: “Free” needles are provided to junkies in the community and blood borne viruses are still being contracted. Providing them in a gaol is stupid and offensive to normal members of society.

Wow. Needle exchange programs haven’t completely eradicated all bloodborne diseases? Who would have thought it?

Dunno where you’re getting this idea that it’s offensive to everyone. Personally, I find the idea of failing to tackle a health issue for no logical reason both stupid and offensive.

Proboscus said :

Fact:

Junkies in the community are well educated in the risks of sharing needles. Prisoners in the AMC are also well educated about the risks of sharing needles and are given access to bleach, disenfectent, etc, to minimise the risks. You can’t put brains in statues – and you can’t force drug addicts not to share needles safely.

Again – if you can’t distinguish between the actual benefits of reducing harm and the impossibility of eliminating the problem entirely, you’re probably not bright enough to be involved in a policy discussion.

Proboscus said :

Fact: ACT Health have lied before about the spread of blood borne viruses within the AMC before. I suspect that this is more of the same.

Lol. ‘I suspect that this is a lie’. That’s great platform for an argument.

Proboscus said :

Fact: You can everything in place to try and prevent junkies from hurting themselves. But like the current Raiders team – they’ll keep finding new ways of disappointing you.

Seriously – now your ignorance is getting dangerous. Read some basic information (or, if you find reading difficult, perhaps talk to someone involved in the field) about bloodborne diseases. It’s not just junkies that get these diseases. When they get them, they spread into the community. Even if you are one of those brainless dickheads who believes that ‘junkies aren’t human and should all die herp derp’, then at very least I’d assume you’d have some interest in the wellbeing of other people in the community.

Or would you continue the posturing with no evidence beyond why a safe needle injecting room should’t be supplied?

Jim Jones said :

dazzab said :

figjam said :

“Making drugs healthier”? Not exactly.

It seems strange to me that nobody is mentioning the contradiction of supplying clean needles to inject dirty drugs.
This may sound facetious, but I think it should be seriously considered.
Why go halfway? If we really want to fix this problem, let’s do it properly.

All prisoners have access to free health care to deal with addiction. So tell me again what the rationale is to provide fit kits for the use of illegal drugs?

Providing needles for the same activities that people were incarcerated for strikes me as very similar to providing visits with kids to those incarcerated for sex offenses.

It simply doesn’t make sense.

In what way doesn’t it make sense?

The drugs are already there (all this ranting and raving about how prison is supposed to be rah rah rah won’t change this – there isn’t a single drug-free jail in the world). Using dirty needles spreads bloodborne diseases (that then spread further into the community). Using clean needles prevents this spread.

Comparing it to giving children to sex offenders is relentlessly stupid and offensive.

The only thing that doesn’t make sense to me are people who’d rather put their head in the sand that acknowledge reality and try to reduce the instances of disease in the community because they think pointless posturing is more important than real world outcomes.

Fact: “Free” needles are provided to junkies in the community and blood borne viruses are still being contracted. Providing them in a gaol is stupid and offensive to normal members of society.

Fact: Junkies in the community are well educated in the risks of sharing needles. Prisoners in the AMC are also well educated about the risks of sharing needles and are given access to bleach, disenfectent, etc, to minimise the risks. You can’t put brains in statues – and you can’t force drug addicts not to share needles safely.

Fact: ACT Health have lied before about the spread of blood borne viruses within the AMC before. I suspect that this is more of the same.

Fact: You can everything in place to try and prevent junkies from hurting themselves. But like the current Raiders team – they’ll keep finding new ways of disappointing you.

dazzab said :

figjam said :

“Making drugs healthier”? Not exactly.

It seems strange to me that nobody is mentioning the contradiction of supplying clean needles to inject dirty drugs.
This may sound facetious, but I think it should be seriously considered.
Why go halfway? If we really want to fix this problem, let’s do it properly.

All prisoners have access to free health care to deal with addiction. So tell me again what the rationale is to provide fit kits for the use of illegal drugs?

Providing needles for the same activities that people were incarcerated for strikes me as very similar to providing visits with kids to those incarcerated for sex offenses.

It simply doesn’t make sense.

In what way doesn’t it make sense?

The drugs are already there (all this ranting and raving about how prison is supposed to be rah rah rah won’t change this – there isn’t a single drug-free jail in the world). Using dirty needles spreads bloodborne diseases (that then spread further into the community). Using clean needles prevents this spread.

Comparing it to giving children to sex offenders is relentlessly stupid and offensive.

The only thing that doesn’t make sense to me are people who’d rather put their head in the sand that acknowledge reality and try to reduce the instances of disease in the community because they think pointless posturing is more important than real world outcomes.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Proboscus said :

johnboy said :

And your plan for dealing with corrupt guards is?

And with a comment like that I’m sure you have loads of evidence to prove that there are corrupt guards at the AMC?

To think otherwise would require ignorance of a pretty high degree.

Forgive my ignorance for a moment and show me evidence of corruption by guards at the AMC?

“The Greens are pointing out that a further 6 cases of Hepatitis C at the prison is a bit of a good reason to start up a needle exchange.”

Is there evidence that this was cause by sharing needles? HepC is fairly easy to transmit.

figjam said :

“Making drugs healthier”? Not exactly.

It seems strange to me that nobody is mentioning the contradiction of supplying clean needles to inject dirty drugs.
This may sound facetious, but I think it should be seriously considered.
Why go halfway? If we really want to fix this problem, let’s do it properly.

All prisoners have access to free health care to deal with addiction. So tell me again what the rationale is to provide fit kits for the use of illegal drugs?

Providing needles for the same activities that people were incarcerated for strikes me as very similar to providing visits with kids to those incarcerated for sex offenses.

It simply doesn’t make sense.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd6:14 pm 02 Jun 12

Proboscus said :

johnboy said :

And your plan for dealing with corrupt guards is?

And with a comment like that I’m sure you have loads of evidence to prove that there are corrupt guards at the AMC?

To think otherwise would require ignorance of a pretty high degree.

johnboy said :

And your plan for dealing with corrupt guards is?

And with a comment like that I’m sure you have loads of evidence to prove that there are corrupt guards at the AMC?

Jethro said :

Special G said :

I’m going to agree with Henry BG on this one – although I thought he was all pro dope and I’ve seen plenty of property offenders doing it to fund a dope habit.

Try not to draw Henry’s attention to the logical inconsistencies of his world view. He might end up choking on all the foam in his mouth.

I’m all for legalising drugs. The government should be ensuring quality and reaping tax rewards from them.

Doesn’t mean that in the current legal circumstance I think we should be providing inmates with needles. If we’re serious about helping inmates get off drugs then all prisoners should be drug tested regularly and we need to make a serious effort to prevent them from accessing these drugs.

Prison isn’t a holiday camp.

johnboy said :

And your plan for dealing with corrupt guards is?

Well police sniffer dogs would be quite effective in dealing with that one!

You’re in jail for doing drugs and ruining other people’s lives by your choices, so we will give you a needle so you can continue with your illegal activities by attempting to shoot up in jail? A fine idea that one.. Maybe we can provide the people in there for armed robbery a gun to play with and the paedophiles some children? There’s a policy for the Greens and Labor to run with for the election.

Invite them to find another job.

Special G said :

I’m going to agree with Henry BG on this one – although I thought he was all pro dope and I’ve seen plenty of property offenders doing it to fund a dope habit.

Try not to draw Henry’s attention to the logical inconsistencies of his world view. He might end up choking on all the foam in his mouth.

It’s a prison. Am I the only one who thinks that perhaps it isn’t asking too much that the assessment of every incoming inmate, and every visitor / inmate interaction can be secure enough that the drugs can’t get in there in the first place?

Seriously, there must be better security at the airport every time I get on a plane…

But yes, if the drugs are in there, providing clean syringes and needles is definitely a sensible harm-minimising measure and there is no logical reason to oppose it.

And your plan for dealing with corrupt guards is?

@ Henry BG While i mostly agree with your draconian sentiment re how to stop illegal drugs getting into prisons unfortunately we live in a society that is run by do-gooders and limp wristed fools who through their softly softly approach have facilitated this scenario and numerous other inappropriate behaviours.
So the simple reality is that the status quo will remain until the legislators have an epiphany and stop pussyfooting around which is about as likely as Gillard winning the next election!

I’m going to agree with Henry BG on this one – although I thought he was all pro dope and I’ve seen plenty of property offenders doing it to fund a dope habit.

SImply implementing a needle exchange and not providing some serious drug rehab type program is a waste of time. Get them off the gear and their won’t be a need for a needle exchange program because no one will have a habit.

Mysteryman said :

People use drugs and are a danger to themselves and others: “we have to make it safer for them to keep using!”

People driving fast and are a danger to themselves and others: “omg they are the scum of the earth and shouldn’t be allowed to drive!”

Yeah… makes a whole lot of sense.

Lol. This orange isn’t the same as this apple … it’s a craaaaaazy world!!!

People use drugs and are a danger to themselves and others: “we have to make it safer for them to keep using!”

People driving fast and are a danger to themselves and others: “omg they are the scum of the earth and shouldn’t be allowed to drive!”

Yeah… makes a whole lot of sense.

HenryBG said :

buzz819 said :

The only way to successfully run a prison without drugs would be to create a totally sterile environment with no outside influences at all. I believe NSW tried an automatic type correctional centre in the 80’s but it never got off the ground. So the only way to do it would be to lock each and every person in a cell for 24 hours a day, with no visitation, no contact with guards etc.

What’s the other way that drug’s get into prisons? Pretty simple, nine times out of ten, people who are getting sentenced know that they are going to get imprisoned, so they shelf a lot of drugs, the good ole rectal cavity, natures own pocket. On top of that, people get released on bail, just to get locked up again a few days later to come back into the centre with their pocket full of drugs, how do you stop that? Everyone being separated?

Yes.
Total isolation and removal to a random remote facility for anybody failing a drug test so whoever is supplying them doesn’t know where they are.
Total isolation for all new inmates until they pass their first fortnight’s drug tests.
Drug test for any visitor of any inmate who’s ever failed a drug test.
Drug test for all warders.
Permanent life ban for any visitor caught with any kind of contraband.
Punch in the head for anybody who says, “Human Rights”.

And when I say “drug test”, I mean a test for the particular substance associated with that inmate’s offending.

And if you don’t want criminals protected from drug abuse, then serious consideration for a proper prescription to supply a junkie with what they need so they don’t create a demand for it on the black market, and administered safely, not by a quivering junkie using a needle.

Oh, and three strikes, so scum like Massey never gets the opportunity to commit a 4th crime, let alone a 64th.

And no gourmet catering.
Beans and toast for breakfast. cheese sandwich for lunch and bangers and mash for dinner. Made by prisoners, not by an expensive contractor. Anybody dissatisfied or with special requirements can go hungry while they think about how they can avoid having to deal with a prison diet in the future.

It’s time to stop bending over backwards for the least deserving and do something for the people who actually fund and run this society of ours for a change.

We get it, you really really really want to live in a fascist state.

buzz819 said :

The only way to successfully run a prison without drugs would be to create a totally sterile environment with no outside influences at all. I believe NSW tried an automatic type correctional centre in the 80’s but it never got off the ground. So the only way to do it would be to lock each and every person in a cell for 24 hours a day, with no visitation, no contact with guards etc.

What’s the other way that drug’s get into prisons? Pretty simple, nine times out of ten, people who are getting sentenced know that they are going to get imprisoned, so they shelf a lot of drugs, the good ole rectal cavity, natures own pocket. On top of that, people get released on bail, just to get locked up again a few days later to come back into the centre with their pocket full of drugs, how do you stop that? Everyone being separated?

Yes.
Total isolation and removal to a random remote facility for anybody failing a drug test so whoever is supplying them doesn’t know where they are.
Total isolation for all new inmates until they pass their first fortnight’s drug tests.
Drug test for any visitor of any inmate who’s ever failed a drug test.
Drug test for all warders.
Permanent life ban for any visitor caught with any kind of contraband.
Punch in the head for anybody who says, “Human Rights”.

And when I say “drug test”, I mean a test for the particular substance associated with that inmate’s offending.

And if you don’t want criminals protected from drug abuse, then serious consideration for a proper prescription to supply a junkie with what they need so they don’t create a demand for it on the black market, and administered safely, not by a quivering junkie using a needle.

Oh, and three strikes, so scum like Massey never gets the opportunity to commit a 4th crime, let alone a 64th.

And no gourmet catering.
Beans and toast for breakfast. cheese sandwich for lunch and bangers and mash for dinner. Made by prisoners, not by an expensive contractor. Anybody dissatisfied or with special requirements can go hungry while they think about how they can avoid having to deal with a prison diet in the future.

It’s time to stop bending over backwards for the least deserving and do something for the people who actually fund and run this society of ours for a change.

buzz819 said :

HenryBG said :

Jim Jones said :

There isn’t a prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

So you say.
I bet I could run a prison with no *illegal* drugs in it. And a lot cheaper than the ridiculous pile of crap so-called prison they’ve foisted on us here, too.

In any case, if you’ve got an inmate that needs to be stoned, *make* him stoned, don’t let him create a demand to feed a black market in dodgy uncontrolled drugs.

If these limp-wristed Greens idiots are happy to accept prisoners being on drugs instead of being rehabilitated (the irony of people who crap on about rehabilititation so much showing such casual disregard for it is pretty good, too), then they should have integrity to assume responsibility for being the ones to *put* them on drugs in the first place, thus breaking the link between drug abusers and the drugs black market which is the cause of so much of the property crime that affects us.

Not just handing out needles and denying responsibility for what they are used for.

Alternatively, remember that Tintin adventure when Professor Calculus figures out a pill that makes you allergic to Scotch and slips one on Captain Haddock? Can’t we put something in the water to make junkies violently allergic to junk?

You running anything beyond a shower would probably be a good show Henry.

The only way to successfully run a prison without drugs would be to create a totally sterile environment with no outside influences at all. I believe NSW tried an automatic type correctional centre in the 80’s but it never got off the ground. So the only way to do it would be to lock each and every person in a cell for 24 hours a day, with no visitation, no contact with guards etc.

What’s the other way that drug’s get into prisons? Pretty simple, nine times out of ten, people who are getting sentenced know that they are going to get imprisoned, so they shelf a lot of drugs, the good ole rectal cavity, natures own pocket. On top of that, people get released on bail, just to get locked up again a few days later to come back into the centre with their pocket full of drugs, how do you stop that? Everyone being separated?

The staff in prisons generally bring in drugs too. So you’d have to have a prison with no staff.

HenryBG said :

Jim Jones said :

There isn’t a prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

So you say.
I bet I could run a prison with no *illegal* drugs in it. And a lot cheaper than the ridiculous pile of crap so-called prison they’ve foisted on us here, too.

In any case, if you’ve got an inmate that needs to be stoned, *make* him stoned, don’t let him create a demand to feed a black market in dodgy uncontrolled drugs.

If these limp-wristed Greens idiots are happy to accept prisoners being on drugs instead of being rehabilitated (the irony of people who crap on about rehabilititation so much showing such casual disregard for it is pretty good, too), then they should have integrity to assume responsibility for being the ones to *put* them on drugs in the first place, thus breaking the link between drug abusers and the drugs black market which is the cause of so much of the property crime that affects us.

Not just handing out needles and denying responsibility for what they are used for.

Alternatively, remember that Tintin adventure when Professor Calculus figures out a pill that makes you allergic to Scotch and slips one on Captain Haddock? Can’t we put something in the water to make junkies violently allergic to junk?

Lol. You’re carrying on like the needle-exchange program would give people drugs.

It doesn’t. The drugs are already there.

Your solution is essentially implementing Anthony Burgess’s ‘Clockwork Orange’. I’d suggest you read that book (rather than Tintin comics) and see what it has to say.

HenryBG said :

Jim Jones said :

There isn’t a prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

So you say.
I bet I could run a prison with no *illegal* drugs in it. And a lot cheaper than the ridiculous pile of crap so-called prison they’ve foisted on us here, too.

In any case, if you’ve got an inmate that needs to be stoned, *make* him stoned, don’t let him create a demand to feed a black market in dodgy uncontrolled drugs.

If these limp-wristed Greens idiots are happy to accept prisoners being on drugs instead of being rehabilitated (the irony of people who crap on about rehabilititation so much showing such casual disregard for it is pretty good, too), then they should have integrity to assume responsibility for being the ones to *put* them on drugs in the first place, thus breaking the link between drug abusers and the drugs black market which is the cause of so much of the property crime that affects us.

Not just handing out needles and denying responsibility for what they are used for.

Alternatively, remember that Tintin adventure when Professor Calculus figures out a pill that makes you allergic to Scotch and slips one on Captain Haddock? Can’t we put something in the water to make junkies violently allergic to junk?

You running anything beyond a shower would probably be a good show Henry.

The only way to successfully run a prison without drugs would be to create a totally sterile environment with no outside influences at all. I believe NSW tried an automatic type correctional centre in the 80’s but it never got off the ground. So the only way to do it would be to lock each and every person in a cell for 24 hours a day, with no visitation, no contact with guards etc.

What’s the other way that drug’s get into prisons? Pretty simple, nine times out of ten, people who are getting sentenced know that they are going to get imprisoned, so they shelf a lot of drugs, the good ole rectal cavity, natures own pocket. On top of that, people get released on bail, just to get locked up again a few days later to come back into the centre with their pocket full of drugs, how do you stop that? Everyone being separated?

Jim Jones said :

There isn’t a prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

So you say.
I bet I could run a prison with no *illegal* drugs in it. And a lot cheaper than the ridiculous pile of crap so-called prison they’ve foisted on us here, too.

In any case, if you’ve got an inmate that needs to be stoned, *make* him stoned, don’t let him create a demand to feed a black market in dodgy uncontrolled drugs.

If these limp-wristed Greens idiots are happy to accept prisoners being on drugs instead of being rehabilitated (the irony of people who crap on about rehabilititation so much showing such casual disregard for it is pretty good, too), then they should have integrity to assume responsibility for being the ones to *put* them on drugs in the first place, thus breaking the link between drug abusers and the drugs black market which is the cause of so much of the property crime that affects us.

Not just handing out needles and denying responsibility for what they are used for.

Alternatively, remember that Tintin adventure when Professor Calculus figures out a pill that makes you allergic to Scotch and slips one on Captain Haddock? Can’t we put something in the water to make junkies violently allergic to junk?

VYBerlinaV8_is_back10:41 am 01 Jun 12

Jim Jones said :

There isn’t a prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

This is true, but it doesn’t make it right or mean that we shouldn’t strive for a better situation.

I think more questions need to be asked, such as how inmates would access drug rehabilitation services and how needles would be accounted for for the health and safety of everyone involved.

At this point, I’m not convinced a needle exchange is a good idea, but I might change my mind if more objective analysis was presented.

“OK, let us return from the kiddy fantasy land in which we can keep drugs and needles out of prisons and have a look at the real world.”

HenryBG said :

So the ACT’s new you-beaut “human rights compliant” gaol, aside from being the least safe gaol for inmates and staff alike, is now also the cause of an outbreak of infectious disease?

Champion effort, by all involved.

Gungahlin Al said :

So who are people thinking pays for the medical costs of diseased people? Yep – fantasy land. In black and white.

That’s a failure in the prison system, not an argument for us to surrender to the criminals.

If there’s one thing incarceration could be doing for criminals, it’s keeping them away from the primary cause of their criminal behaviour: drug abuse.

If the prison isn’t stopping them from doing that, then that is a massive failure it needs to address. Drug tests for all inmates. Drug tests for all visitors.
Complete isolation for anybody failing a drug test. (Might have to build a real prison to achieve that, I guess).
Protecting them from their addiction really wouldn’t be that hard, and it would seem to be a basic human right that the limp-wristed do-gooders have completely overlooked.

Handing out needles is just like Chamberlain returning from Munich proclaiming “Peace in our time”: it’s a stupid and dishonest way of distracting from the real issue.

There isn’t a prison in the world that doesn’t have drugs in it.

Ranting and raving like some sort of cut-rate Andrew Bolt won’t alter reality one iota.

Cheap said :

It’s like if the jail started handing out stab-proof vests. Would people really be saying “oh stab proof vests condone stabbing people, we should be trying to stamp out the knives instead!”?

Good analogy! Except you can’t attack someone with a bullet-proof vest full of virus-infected blood?

So the ACT’s new you-beaut “human rights compliant” gaol, aside from being the least safe gaol for inmates and staff alike, is now also the cause of an outbreak of infectious disease?

Champion effort, by all involved.

Gungahlin Al said :

So who are people thinking pays for the medical costs of diseased people? Yep – fantasy land. In black and white.

That’s a failure in the prison system, not an argument for us to surrender to the criminals.

If there’s one thing incarceration could be doing for criminals, it’s keeping them away from the primary cause of their criminal behaviour: drug abuse.

If the prison isn’t stopping them from doing that, then that is a massive failure it needs to address. Drug tests for all inmates. Drug tests for all visitors.
Complete isolation for anybody failing a drug test. (Might have to build a real prison to achieve that, I guess).
Protecting them from their addiction really wouldn’t be that hard, and it would seem to be a basic human right that the limp-wristed do-gooders have completely overlooked.

Handing out needles is just like Chamberlain returning from Munich proclaiming “Peace in our time”: it’s a stupid and dishonest way of distracting from the real issue.

It’s like if the jail started handing out stab-proof vests. Would people really be saying “oh stab proof vests condone stabbing people, we should be trying to stamp out the knives instead!”?

Gungahlin Al11:55 pm 31 May 12

So who are people thinking pays for the medical costs of diseased people? Yep – fantasy land. In black and white.

I agree with almost everything Proboscus said. But, regarding the question:

“Why should you or I pay for some junkies habit?”

The problem is that we are already paying for it. Most male addicts fund their habit by committing burglaries and other thefts, sometimes using violence. This places the burden unfairly on the minority of us unfortunate enough to become victims. The rest of us also pay for it through higher insurance premiums.

Harm minimisation is about protecting innocent members of the community. That means preventing crime as well as reducing the spread of infection. I personally have nothing but contempt for drug addicts. We have to look beyond the principle – I agree it sends a terrible message – and try to achieve results.

Gungahlin Al11:05 pm 31 May 12

“OK, let us return from the kiddy fantasy land in which we can keep drugs and needles out of prisons and have a look at the real world.
The Greens are pointing out that a further 6 cases of Hepatitis C at the prison is a bit of a good reason to start up a needle exchange.
Those of you off in authoritarian dreamland need to remember that the inmates are going to return to society sooner rather than later and how disease infested do you want them to be?”

Well said JB.

DPM asked:

1) Are prison staff likely to be in any additional danger from such a move? (Apparently not, according to the evidence, though I wonder, if it were your job, if you’d be a bit more concerned?)

Answer: The job itself is dangerous. When you add drugs to the mix then it becomes a very dangerous environment. Gaols (I spelt it correctly this time) need to be a controlled environment to maintain security and safety.

2) Can anyone sue (i.e. who gets the blame) when someone ODs and dies using a Govt supplied (endorsed) needle? What’s the law here?

Answer: Politicians, do-gooders, Michael Moore, Hamburger, ACT Health and anyone else who want this program implemented will NOT be blamed or sued. Some poor guard will cop the lot.

3) Does a needle exchange in prison 100% mitigate the sharing of needles? And diseases?

Answer: No. There is a Government run needle exchange operating in the community and this has not stopped drug users from sharing syringes or diseases. Do you think it’s going to stop once they go to prison?

4) Should the Govt also supply ‘safe’ (known quality) drugs to ensure they don’t then shoot up with more-dangerous gear?

Answer: No. Why should you or I pay for some junkies habit? The prisoners at the AMC are supposed to receive education and rehabilitation programs. Anything to do with a syringe exchange program would send contradicting messages. If you have one, you can’t have the other.

figjam said :

“Making drugs healthier”? Not exactly.

It seems strange to me that nobody is mentioning the contradiction of supplying clean needles to inject dirty drugs. I would hate to question the integrity of drug dealers, but I have heard that the substances they sell do not always include the drugs they are supposed to. Sometimes they are even bulked up with anything ranging from sugar to drain cleaner. Not to mention being smuggled into the jail in someone’s anal cavity. Shouldn’t we be concerned about what the prisoners are injecting as well as how they are injecting it? If we really wanted to minimise the harm, we would provide the prisoners with clean drugs as well as clean needles.

This may sound facetious, but I think it should be seriously considered. The injection process would be taken out of a semi-legal situation where we hope the addict doesn’t overdose in the injecting room and brought into the open where controlled quantities of clean drugs are administered safely by health professionals. This would also greatly reduce the danger of needles being used as weapons. If we only supply clean needles, guards are placed in the contradictory situation of trying to stop drugs getting in the front door, but standing back and doing nothing as a prisoner who is obviously carrying drugs walks to the injecting room. The best side-effect of course will be eliminating the demand for smuggled drugs, cutting into the profits of drug dealers.

Why go halfway? If we really want to fix this problem, let’s do it properly.

Absolutely spot on. A needle exchange program by itself is self-contradictory and absurd. One alternative is that they set a trend amongst prisons, and have no needles and no drugs. The other alternative is that they have medically supervised administration of minimal amounts of drugs by health professionals in controlled circumstances, along with compulsory education and rehab programs.

I’d support either option, but the idea of allowing needles while banning the drugs that go with them has way too much of an Alice-in-Wonderland vibe or me.

Hep C explosion – really?

I really know nothing about the issue, and am not sure if it’s a better option, but I wonder about the following questions:
1) Are prison staff likely to be in any additional danger from such a move? (Apparently not, according to the evidence, though I wonder, if it were your job, if you’d be a bit more concerned?)
2) Can anyone sue (i.e. who gets the blame) when someone ODs and dies using a Govt supplied (endorsed) needle? What’s the law here?
3) Does a needle exchange in prison 100% mitigate the sharing of needles? And diseases?
4) Should the Govt also supply ‘safe’ (known quality) drugs to ensure they don’t then shoot up with more-dangerous gear?

“Making drugs healthier”? Not exactly.

It seems strange to me that nobody is mentioning the contradiction of supplying clean needles to inject dirty drugs. I would hate to question the integrity of drug dealers, but I have heard that the substances they sell do not always include the drugs they are supposed to. Sometimes they are even bulked up with anything ranging from sugar to drain cleaner. Not to mention being smuggled into the jail in someone’s anal cavity. Shouldn’t we be concerned about what the prisoners are injecting as well as how they are injecting it? If we really wanted to minimise the harm, we would provide the prisoners with clean drugs as well as clean needles.

This may sound facetious, but I think it should be seriously considered. The injection process would be taken out of a semi-legal situation where we hope the addict doesn’t overdose in the injecting room and brought into the open where controlled quantities of clean drugs are administered safely by health professionals. This would also greatly reduce the danger of needles being used as weapons. If we only supply clean needles, guards are placed in the contradictory situation of trying to stop drugs getting in the front door, but standing back and doing nothing as a prisoner who is obviously carrying drugs walks to the injecting room. The best side-effect of course will be eliminating the demand for smuggled drugs, cutting into the profits of drug dealers.

Why go halfway? If we really want to fix this problem, let’s do it properly.

What part of “no” do they not understand?

It angers me so much when people will ignore the problem on the basis of drug use being illegal – what a ridiculous notion, that we should let diseases run rampant so that we aren’t seen to be encouraging drug use. Morons. The whole point of drugs being illegal in the first place is that they are a health hazard, and here we are making drugs healthier and people are against it on moral grounds? It boggles the mind

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