28 January 2010

How does your school rate?

| rosebud
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I checked out the new My Schools web site to see how the schools in our area are going and compare them to the expensive private schools in the ACT and elsewhere. A bit of a shock! How does your school rate?

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What about demographics and other differences that might impact on school results. It does not really tell you where the best teachers are. Teachers working in poorer suburbs may be wonderful and achieve better results than a shonky teacher, but this won’t be reflected in a comparative table, when you are being compared with affluent kids with well educated parents.

To go for the double post – Rudd wants us all to get in on the action and vote for our favourite school.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/01/2807076.htm?section=justin

Perhaps it will be Idol-style sms, and the school with the least votes finids their ‘journey ends here’.

Here’s a good opportunity for the rumourmongers to really get a hearing.

As an extra note, I’m told this was the hot topic at school today – comparing the ratings from various schools.

Jim Jones said :

I’m shocked and appalled to learn that 50% of the schools in Australia are below average!

Classic.

They should be publishing a ‘benchmark’, not an average. If we had 100% of schools achieving very highly, we would still have 50% (roughly, let’s not get pedantic) below average.

Where do the schools sit against the National Benchmark. In the side column of the CT Andrew Barr is quoted talking about schools not meeting the national benchmark and thus being a target for the govt to improve in those areas. I would consider this a far better number to have linked to the stats than the average.

A schools tests results could be skewed significantly by one or two under/over performing children as they are a relatively small sample.

I have two children who will be going to primary school in the next couple of years. The school they are going to is the local one (well next closest as they closed the local one). You can get there crossing the arterial road by underpass and it is close enough to walk still. If they need a bit more help at schooling then they have parents who will take an interest in their education and assist them.

Mathman said :

Jim Jones said :

I’m shocked and appalled to learn that 50% of the schools in Australia are below average!

I’m shocked and appalled to learn about your poor understanding of statistics!

The median is the measure of which 50% of results are above or below. Average is best though of as the expected result which can be skewed by a couple of very high or low performers.

As I’ve said before, this figures are useless, or worse, misleading, without knowing the distribution.

Ummm, I’m pretty sure that was humour you were experiencing there. OK, it’s not great humour, but it got a chuckle out of me!

It’s a test over 3 days in the life of a student.

That means there are 397 other school days where the student is able to achieve, if not better, than NAPLAN.

The whole thing smacks of league tabling and no surprises there that the CT had printed one the day after the myschool website went online.

The same thing FAILED in the US and UK several years ago……

Jim Jones said :

I’m shocked and appalled to learn that 50% of the schools in Australia are below average!

I’m shocked and appalled to learn about your poor understanding of statistics!

The median is the measure of which 50% of results are above or below. Average is best though of as the expected result which can be skewed by a couple of very high or low performers.

As I’ve said before, this figures are useless, or worse, misleading, without knowing the distribution.

Woody Mann-Caruso9:33 am 30 Jan 10

Note that for some schools on this site the results change dramatically from 2008 to 2009 (different cohort sitting exams, as they only sit them in odd years) thus showing the results are representative of the people who sat the exam, not the school as a whole.

If I saw a dramatic increase in performance from 2008 to 2009 I’d suspect staff had started teaching to the test.

emd said :

I was talking to a public primary school principal this morning about the My School website. She said her school hadn’t taught specifically to the NAPLAN tests previously because they wanted a more rounded overall education. They have a large group of special ed students in their school which affects their average. But now they will have to teach specifically to the test in order to get a ranking that attracts more students, and therefore more funding resources. And unlike private schools, they can’t introduce pre-enrolment tests to reject students who will bring their average down.

Other schools in Canberra have English as a Second Language students affecting their average, or are in a suburb with lots of Defence families with kids who have attended lots of schools over a short time affecting their learning. The stats aren’t taking these things into consideration. A simple comparison of cultural background or family income is not as useful if special ed units, or G&T programs, are skewing the school’s average.

Pre-enrolment tests?

Private school all mine and my family’s life. Never one pre-enrolment test.

The sky isn’t falling either.

I found it quite curious that the straw polls conducted on TV saw the parents with kids in highly rated schools happy with the site, and those with lower ranked schools unhappy.

JessP said :

Well, my kids school didn’t do so good. But he is doing good. Whatever.

Hopefully better than his parents.

The correct phrase is ‘doing well’

OMG – you don’t suppose our ACT Department of Education’s new focus on Literacy and Numeracy has anything to do with improving NAPLAN results to reflect better MySchools results? Nor that its focus on Quality Teaching Framework has anything to do with improving teacher performance for when teachers will (inevitably) have a similar rating scale applied to their performance as Ruddy has previously indicated… no, surely not…

I’m all for it – too many people crying “foul” seems to indicate its a good thing and it’s been an interesting read – I can’t stand the private education system in this town not that you have much choice if you ain’t a catholic but it reconfirmed what I’ve heard about the relative merits of some schools and the general impression gained in the mid winter familiarisation evenings we attended last year. Probably the best thing Ruddy has fronted since he got elected.

Pommy bastard, my sister teaches at Canberra High and after hearing about how the school operates, the poor decision to switch from seven to six lines (limiting electives) etc etc. I am totally UNsurprised.

Beware of generalisations. Not all private schools have pre-enrolment tests. Some public schools do (or have an equivalent process that achieves the same thing) for out-of-area kids (who constitute most of their enrolments.

Pommy bastard3:25 pm 29 Jan 10

I’m surprised Canberra High didn’t score better.

I was talking to a public primary school principal this morning about the My School website. She said her school hadn’t taught specifically to the NAPLAN tests previously because they wanted a more rounded overall education. They have a large group of special ed students in their school which affects their average. But now they will have to teach specifically to the test in order to get a ranking that attracts more students, and therefore more funding resources. And unlike private schools, they can’t introduce pre-enrolment tests to reject students who will bring their average down.

Other schools in Canberra have English as a Second Language students affecting their average, or are in a suburb with lots of Defence families with kids who have attended lots of schools over a short time affecting their learning. The stats aren’t taking these things into consideration. A simple comparison of cultural background or family income is not as useful if special ed units, or G&T programs, are skewing the school’s average.

Jim Jones said :

I’m shocked and appalled to learn that 50% of the schools in Australia are below average!

Wouldn’t that be below median?

silvernitrate2:17 pm 29 Jan 10

this site is absolute rubbish
people (should) know that students, especially in high school, do not give a damn about these tests. i myself think its a waste of time. they are ridiculously easy, esp the numeracy ones.

And what of schools that run special programs? My kids go to a school that has a language immersion program and that was one of the main reasons for choosing this school. They also run other programs such as intergrated Autism units. How are such details recorded in these results? They are not!

In some cases, as mentioned previously, the elitist or plain lazy parents will look at these results and relocate their kids instead of do what’s best for their kids and take an active role in their education.

miz said :

I found that some of the simple but effective things I had noticed at the previous school, like letting the kids run around before nine o’clock, lining them up and settling them down before entering the classroom, and arranging the desks so they were looking directly (not sideways in weird clusters of desks) at the board, were missing here in the ACT – and it showed in the way the teachers and kids interacted. Some of these things (eg the playing in the school yard to get the wriggles out before the 9 o’clock bell) is a union playground supervision issue here – essentially, teachers resent, and don’t want to do, playground duty.

They also did lots of singing in assembly, which proved to be a great settler-downer. I have to say, I have never seen such unruly and noisy children’s assemblies except here in the ACT.

Wow I was surprised to read this. Our kid’s (ACT public) school does all the things (singing in assemblies, lining up for 9am etc) you mentioned. The kids are not unruly, the assemblies are overflowing with parents who enjoy attending and my kids are thriving in the environment. I dare say it is not something unique to our school either having spoken with parents attending nearby schools. For interest sake our results on the website are above or near national average in most categories but below in quite a few for the ‘similar’ schools section. My take on the website is it is nice to know but I am hardly going to use it as the sole basis for deciding where to send my kids!

I expect that not much will change in Queensland and Victoria where similar rankings of schools have been available for a long time. In NSW/ACT, it remains to be seen – will our schools start “teaching to the test”? will they start filtering out poor performers?

Anyone trying to make a decision of what school to send their children to will still be better off visiting the schools and finding the one where the staff and students seem to you to be the most conducive to a good social and academic schooling for your child.

“But let’s be honest – if you really wanted to get a better idea of what was going on, to talk to the teachers and parents, to see the facilities, to get an understanding of the schools extra-curricular program so that you could make a more informed decision.”
– Clown Killer

That pretty much sums up my thoughts. I wouldn’t even look at that website as part of my decision making process.

Al, I haven’t read Andrew Barr’s comments as they are not online, but absolutely agree about the complacency here in the ACT.

I moved back to Canberra in 1999 with two primary aged children. I thought I was bringing my children to a wonderful ed system (as it has been when I grew up). I was appalled and SHOCKED at the tattiness and unruliness of the ACT school compared to the regional (now considered metropolitan) NSW school my children has previously attended. Every time I mentioned something – having had the benefit of experience in another jurisdiction – it was like ‘oh but we are the best so why should we do anything about that?’

I found that some of the simple but effective things I had noticed at the previous school, like letting the kids run around before nine o’clock, lining them up and settling them down before entering the classroom, and arranging the desks so they were looking directly (not sideways in weird clusters of desks) at the board, were missing here in the ACT – and it showed in the way the teachers and kids interacted. Some of these things (eg the playing in the school yard to get the wriggles out before the 9 o’clock bell) is a union playground supervision issue here – essentially, teachers resent, and don’t want to do, playground duty.

They also did lots of singing in assembly, which proved to be a great settler-downer. I have to say, I have never seen such unruly and noisy children’s assemblies except here in the ACT.

I know these are small things, but little things can affect big things in a big way. AND of course they give a certain perception, and perceptions are what makes parents decide where to send their kids.

I note that that NSW school’s (Woy Woy South PS) NAPLAN results are distinctly better than my children’s ACT school.

Results don’t reflect just on the quality of the teaching staff and curriculum, but also on the quality of the pupils and parental interest and expectations of their schooling. I’ve previously nominated my area as a candidate for most bogan in Canberra, and the results from the two public schools in my suburb (red/pink) didn’t surprise me at all. The Catholic primary school scored green, a likely combination of quality instruction and pupils from homes where parents are interested enough in their schooling to shell out fees to educate them privately.

I suspect a lot more ‘teaching to the test’ will occur this year . . .

I am thinking the only thing you can really draw from these stats is SES status. If public school zoning were enforced, I imagine the test results would be far more evenly distributed.

Current ACT public schools policy means that people can ‘shop’ for a school (which usually means they choose a school in a more established area which was funded well prior to self-government and therefore has been able to manage since).

The govt should be ensuring that all ACT govt schools are Equally Excellent, but the current hodge podge of school-based management and school shopping takes the govt off the hook and some schools distinctly less equal than others.

My kids go to the local government primary school, which is situated right next to the local Catholic school, so I guess the pool of kids come from the same socio-economic backgrounds. What the Canberra Times told me today was

(a) My child in 5th grade goes to a really good school (compared to the school next door)
(b) My child in 3rd grade goes to an under-performing school (compared to the school next door)
(c) I made the right decision in sending my eldest to the government school
(d) I made the wrong decision in sending my youngest to the same school

Gungahlin Al11:45 am 29 Jan 10

Jim Jones said :

I’m shocked and appalled to learn that 50% of the schools in Australia are below average!

LOL

While there would no doubt be anomalies (and the head of Lake Tuggers College wrote well about their today in CT), there is a bit to take home from the results, and I think we should be caustious about people from poorly performing schools who are quickly trying to pooh-pooh their results.

I know personally ot through workmates of two public schools that are not dealing effectively with bullying, under-performing teachers, and parent contact, and their school results both tanked. Conversely, I have experience of another school that deals very well with these (and many other) issues, and it was one of the best public schools in the ACT ranks.

To Andrew Barr’s credit, his comments in CT today conceded there is an environment of complacency in ACT Education that has led to many schools slipping behind. He could have (but didn’t) just taken the approach of grasping at a few positives and denying there’s a problem, as Stanhope was doing about the hospital results again on 666 this morning.

Clown Killer10:31 am 29 Jan 10

I know of plenty of kids who can’t be bothered with these tests. For them, the results are meaningless, because they don’t contribute to their end of semester reports.

Yep I’m sure that there’s a conga-line of kids in years 3 and 5 who blow off the test because it won’t affect their grades.

The reality of education is that if your kids emerge from junior primary (K-3) without strong literacy and numeracy skills then they are destined to underperform for the rest of their lives. There’s a lot of emphasis placed on final year results but the only way that you sustain those at a high level is through solid educational foundations.

If this website helps parents avoid schools that are staffed by teachers who are happy to peddle mediocrity then it’s a good thing.

Does the site provide a one stop shop for choosing which school is best for your children? No. It sure helps spot the ones you should avoid. But let’s be honest – if you really wanted to get a better idea of what was going on, to talk to the teachers and parents, to see the facilities, to get an understanding of the schools extra-curricular program so that you could make a more informed decision. If you were to visit one of the schools that’s on the site swimming in a sea of red – full of kids that are consistently significantly underperforming against all of the assessed criteria – are you honestly expecting to find extensive playing fields and sporting facilities, active P&C groups, libraries, computer labs, music, art and drama departments all staffed by motivated teachers at the peak of their profession … nup. I didn’t think so either.

I’m shocked and appalled to learn that 50% of the schools in Australia are below average!

Special considerations are not properly proscribed in naplan (or at least don’t run along the same lines as special considerations in, for example, the HSC or SC) so anybody with a disability that forces them to take longer to read or has a sensory impairment is unrepresented – i.e withdrawn (in most cases) or attributed with a mark that doesn’t represent their ability. We’re talking just over ten percent of Australian students here.

If you look at today’s CT, they have the dreaded league tables.

All they show is that there are very few surprises. The private schools tend to do quite well, but not enough to justify the exhorbitant fees IMHO. The selective schools do well too (try getting into Lyneham High if you aren’t in-area). Other than that …

At primary level, the schools with gifted and talented programs, and those who are known to teach to the test (some have even advertised it on their websites), all do well. What a suprise. Those who focus on a more general education (but still teach the basics) and have a policy of inclusion and developing well-rounded students tend to be about middle or close to the national average. I won’t talk about the rest. Some schools do very badly on one area for no obvious reason – in today’s competitive environment, those schools will probably be looking at their curriculum there to see if there’s anything worth tweaking.

At high school, everything is as I expected with regard to the schools I am familiar with.

So what does it tell you? Most ACT schools are ok. The difference between them generally isn’t enough to rave about, especially when you know a bit more about some of the behind-the-scenes goings-on. The outer suburbs haven’t done so well, the inner areas are sitting pretty well. Again, no surprises.

And as for the claim that kids don’t try too hard in these tests, just remember that some schools will have drummed into their kids just how important these tests are for the school, a message re-inforced by several weeks (or more) or test preparation.

georgesgenitals10:47 pm 28 Jan 10

This website, and data, are a tool for parents. Nothing more. If it helps you decide what’s good for your kid, then great. If not, so what? I think, though, that many people want to find excuses for lower than expected performance in such results, and in doing so skew their opinion on what is a really important decision for their children.

Would I look at this data when considering where to send my kids? Absolutely. Is it all I’d consider? Of course not.

Mindy Minderson10:23 pm 28 Jan 10

Well I’ll be honest, I didn’t try at all in any of them tests, and a majority (if not all) of my friends didn’t either. I guess we took the “doesn’t affect me” approach to it. So to a certain extent the information isn’t completely accurate.

Morgan said :

Note that for some schools on this site the results change dramatically from 2008 to 2009 (different cohort sitting exams, as they only sit them in odd years) thus showing the results are representative of the people who sat the exam, not the school as a whole.

I think we all know this data doesn’t give the meaning most people are looking to find. This thing is a lot more complicated than some a set of exams.

Its like arguing with a homeless person who lives in the ACT citing the fact that people in the ACT earn more on average than other Australians.

You are a person
You live in the ACT
People in the ACT earn more than people in other states

Therefore you musnt be poor and homeless. QED

Sounds like politicians logic, something must be done, this is something, therefore we should do it.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Interestingly enough though the school my parents spent so much money (or rather so much time cleaning it on holidays as part of the schools program to reduce fees for students) is about 2/3rd’s white with the other 1/3rd light green. Sure thats a good result but for the money Trinity Christian School charges these days I would have expected a lot higher result to be honest. Although I have to say tranistioning from ACT public school to NSW high school for year 11 about 13 years ago was a big shock to the system coming from conservative TCS. One thing I will note though is I got bullied mercilessly in high school at TCS and not at all in Public High school in sydney, not even as the “Prefect” for the year. There are differences between public and private but I would never send my kids to a Private school personally, theres nothing worse than an elitist culture to fuck a kid up for life, speaking from experience.

s-s-a said :

It took me, ooh about fifteen minutes to compile and graph league tables for primary schools in Weston Creek.

I’m waiting for the Google Maps mashup.

How long until the real estate websites start adding links to the performance of nearby schools in their property listings?

The whole thing smacks of being dreamt up by statisticians and dumbed down by politicians/bureaucrats.

Its all well and good to give specific numbers for specific performance indicators but if you don’t know what the spread of the results is, you can’t make a fair assessment of the relative performance of each school.

The thing with comparing to averages is that some schools are going to be better than average and the rest will be less than average. Have a couple of high performing schools and suddenly a lot of acceptable schools fall below the average. Without knowing the distribution its pretty misleading.

The other issue with averages is that as ‘below average’ schools strive to improve their rating, the average increases, making it harder and harder to see improvement. Schools without the resources risk falling behind even though their performance is satisfactory by any community standard.

You also have to factor in that there is more to school than just the 3 Rs. Where’s the measures for sports facilities, social programs, creative arts and technical skills. If the measure of performance of a school is solely down to the 3 Rs (and what point is measuring this if not to judge performance) then any ‘below average’ school can be expected to ditch the ‘soft’ subjects to concentrate on what is measured.

The current trend in performance measurement in education is getting ridiculous. My kids report card last year had individual assessments on 75 different ‘performance’ measures – he was only in kindergarten!

They should however implement compulsory checking of riotact posts by teachers, maybe then I would go back and check my posts for typos before posting!

From my scanning of the site, I can safely say that it’s a load of rubbish. The numbers mean nothing and the colours are there purely to make schools look good or bad. It is clear that the numbers would not be reliable, nor does the site provide complete information that you would need to take into account when enrolling your child in a school.

From the information, it is impossible to make a valid assessment of the school or the teachers at that school. The numbers only reflect the students in the particular year level in the year of the exam. For example I have seen the results of some schools change dramatically from 2008 to 2009. My assmessment? The kids in year 3 in 2009 were dumb, in 2008 smart?

You also find that the system is trying to make a comparison of a “statistically similar schools average” which does not look like it takes fully into account the size of the school in question, in some cases it a suburban school with 350 students with a school in outback Australia with 50 students. You also will see that they are comparing different state systems, for example comparing year 7 in the ACT where (most) students will be in the high school system, where in WA and QLD they would be in primary school. Do you really need to know that the children in year 3 at your local primary school in 2008 are statistically not as good than the students in Mullumbimby NSW?

Then you have the fact that kids don’t care, the older the kids the more they understand the concept and the more likely they would want the school they attend to look bad because Mr Jones gave them detention last week.

While such tests are probably good for individual students and their parents to know and ensure they are improving across their school life, it is of little or no proper use for the general parent population. Just because the results of your school have a red or pink mark against it, it doesn’t necessarily mean the school is bad and that your child can’t read or write.

Well the ABC TV news showed league tables and Most of the low schools were in Tuggeranong. The website is a waste of money. Ranking schools based on one test at the start of term 2. I know when I went to school you did not complete your year work until the end of the year. So testing year 3 kids on year three work in term 2, you are going to get low scores. I have heard of schools teaching kids the test in term 1. What does that gain in the kids learning, nothing just how to do well at one test.
Today I have spoken to teachers who have had parents pull kids out of schools today based on this website. Some schools if they lose 1 or 2 students could lose a teacher. So tell me how that school will improve. You can throw more money at the school to improve results but it will not get extra teachers since teacher numbers are based on student numbers.
Tell me why parents need to know more information, that’s what report cards are for or going to the school to see it in action and speaking to people at the school. That’s how my parents found my schools in Sydney.
Bit like the ACT labour govt election promises of the avg class size of 21. So the small classes in the college system are balanced by the large primary school classes. How will schools improve with large classes? Its bad enough most parents only have to deal with 2.4kids, teachers have to deal with up to 30 kids and do a better job than most parents.
I hope to see the ACT teachers strike over this.

I remember in the olden days when I sat the equivalent of the NAPLAN tests my school group was probably well above average in HSC results, sporting achievements, etc. but we probably did not perform so well in these tests, purely because it meant nothing to us.

Being a semi-remote school, we only attracted young teachers, straight out of uni and trying to get their points up so they could get a job in a nice place on the coast or teachers with family in the town. They did a good job with what they had – which wasn’t much.

There are better ways to rate schools, rather than a stupid exam which most kids did not take seriously. What about the school’s sporting achievements, musical endeavours and the ability of the school to convert little brats into upstanding young citizens?

It is interesting to look at schools such as Hillston Central school and Coleambally Central School to see that some last year they performed badly in the junior school exams and did quite well in the high school exams. Can we extrapolate from this that because the kids are from lower socioeconomic areas they are not getting much help from their parents at a young age and the teachers are able to ply their trade, with smaller year groups, over the years to get some above average results?

Note that for some schools on this site the results change dramatically from 2008 to 2009 (different cohort sitting exams, as they only sit them in odd years) thus showing the results are representative of the people who sat the exam, not the school as a whole.

I think we all know this data doesn’t give the meaning most people are looking to find. This thing is a lot more complicated than some a set of exams.

Its like arguing with a homeless person who lives in the ACT citing the fact that people in the ACT earn more on average than other Australians.

You are a person
You live in the ACT
People in the ACT earn more than people in other states

Therefore you musnt be poor and homeless. QED

Sounds like politicians logic, something must be done, this is something, therefore we should do it.

Agree with Kanberran and Trevar. A workmate has an overseas adopted daughter with learning difficulties – I wonder how a school with kids like her will be reflected in these results (there are already a limited number of schools at which she can attend apparently). Would these tests only worsen the situation for kids such as her by making the schools look bad result-wise despite the fact that, as the workmate says the teachers are brilliant and that she’s improving as a result of their assistance. I’d like an index of the school ‘culture’ to ascertain whether my child was entering an environment of ‘encouragement’ or ‘bullying’ – regardless of whether private or public.

Clown Killer said :

Let’s stop tip-toeing around the elephant in the room then. Those NAPLAN results weren’t generated by some faceless bureaucrat – they were generated by little kiddies sitting tests. Little kiddies trying as hard as they could to answer the questions that were asked, to demonstrate the skills that that they had learned. Anyway you mix it up, when the majority of kiddies – trying hard as they might – still get it all arse up then the school as a whole gets dragged into the red.

I think you may be a little overly optimistic. I’ve invigilated plenty of NAPLAN tests, and I’ve been a marker on their predecessors, and I know of plenty of kids who can’t be bothered with these tests. For them, the results are meaningless, because they don’t contribute to their end of semester reports. Plenty of bright kids have this attitude too; the tests test the school, so to make the school look bad, I should do as badly as I can…

My other discomfort in this debate is the number of people who seem to want statistics to give them qualitative information. Statistics aren’t capable of providing qualitative information; that’s why the stats are preceded by a blurb about the school that does provide qualitative information. Of course, most of the blurbs are probably just propaganda, but I still don’t understand why anyone would want a number to measure pastoral care outcomes…

The other thing that I note, with interest, is the ‘statistically comparable’ schools; eg. Girl’s Grammar, with their extremely high fees, is (quite favorably) compared to numerous free public schools in other states. It would be interesting to create a spreadsheet factoring both results and costs to determine a ‘value for money’ indicator …

Clown Killer said :

Some flashes of colour on an website containing uncontextualised, incomplete information sure is a great way to dictate the education of your children

Let’s stop tip-toeing around the elephant in the room then. Those NAPLAN results weren’t generated by some faceless bureaucrat – they were generated by little kiddies sitting tests. Little kiddies trying as hard as they could to answer the questions that were asked, to demonstrate the skills that that they had learned. Anyway you mix it up, when the majority of kiddies – trying hard as they might – still get it all arse up then the school as a whole gets dragged into the red. Sure, every now and then you’re going to get a school with a high proportion of genuinely dumb-arse kids, but the harsh reality is that where you see the majority of kids in the majority of areas tested scoring substantially below the national average then the only sensible way forward is to start questioning whether the teachers at that school have the wherewithal to deliver the goods.

I’ll happily accept that there are going to be parents out there who are happy for their kids to be a social experiment – to send them off to an underperforming school to learn how to underperform. But what about the parents who have no choice? At least now they have an inkling about what’s going at their kids school – incompetent teachers, principals, education departments and Ministers will have to deal with these people when they come asking for answers. This is a good thing.

I agree with most of what you have stated CK; but, and it’s a big but – I know for a fact that my school did not, in any way form or manner, prep the kids to sit the exam. No practice tests, no teaching to the tests etc… so what we have is a fairly genuine result (and a very good result it was too). I know for a fact that many many schools, especially some Victorian schools, teach to the NAPLAN exams. They practice and practice the sample test itmes over and over, until the kids get it right. The school’s reults are therefore not a genuine indication of overall ability – esecially when compared to the schools who don’t ‘train’ their kids to just be able to answer the test questions. Now that these results are public, you can expect a whole lot more schools to be training their kids to sit the tests – of course you would if you were a principal. So – I view these results with some degree of scepticism, whilst at the same time, being grateful for at least a bit more information about my school choices. The key thing to look for, in my opinion, is how the earlier year results (year 7) compare to the later year’s results (year 9) for the same schools – do the results show that the school is working with brighter kids to start with … or can the school genuinely take some credit for their achievements? It is these statistics that I will use to determine my high school choices – not the overal NAPLAN results.

Clown Killer4:56 pm 28 Jan 10

Do they account for differences in socio-economic or cultural demographic at the school?

I’m guessing that they are at least having a go at addressing that. From the My School website:

The Index of Community Socio-Educational Advantage (ICSEA) is a special measure that enables meaningful and fair comparisons to be made across schools. The variables that make up ICSEA include socio-economic characteristics of the small areas where students live (in this case an ABS census collection district), as well as whether a school is in a regional or remote area, and the proportion of Indigenous students enrolled at the school. It has been developed specifically for the My School website for the purpose of identifying schools serving similar student populations. The average ICSEA value is 1000. Most schools have an ICSEA score between 900 and 1100.

Do they account for differences in socio-economic or cultural demographic at the school? Do they account for schools having a G&T program or learning support program that might attract students from extreme ends of the scale? Particularly in smaller schools, these things can impact on results. Some private schools require applicants to sit an exam before they’re let in, to weed out kids who might bring the average down. Other schools just discourage students with learning difficulties from attending – keep up or get out.

These stats don’t tell me about the school’s policy on homework or bullying, or what they do to ensure students are given support to learn at their own pace (which might be faster or slower than average).

Someone has to be in the top 10% or bottom 10%. What matters is whether the majority of kids are learning the basics they need.

Clown Killer4:20 pm 28 Jan 10

Some flashes of colour on an website containing uncontextualised, incomplete information sure is a great way to dictate the education of your children

Let’s stop tip-toeing around the elephant in the room then. Those NAPLAN results weren’t generated by some faceless bureaucrat – they were generated by little kiddies sitting tests. Little kiddies trying as hard as they could to answer the questions that were asked, to demonstrate the skills that that they had learned. Anyway you mix it up, when the majority of kiddies – trying hard as they might – still get it all arse up then the school as a whole gets dragged into the red. Sure, every now and then you’re going to get a school with a high proportion of genuinely dumb-arse kids, but the harsh reality is that where you see the majority of kids in the majority of areas tested scoring substantially below the national average then the only sensible way forward is to start questioning whether the teachers at that school have the wherewithal to deliver the goods.

I’ll happily accept that there are going to be parents out there who are happy for their kids to be a social experiment – to send them off to an underperforming school to learn how to underperform. But what about the parents who have no choice? At least now they have an inkling about what’s going at their kids school – incompetent teachers, principals, education departments and Ministers will have to deal with these people when they come asking for answers. This is a good thing.

Well, my kids school didn’t do so good. But he is doing good. Whatever.

my primary and high schools were so bad they tore them down 🙁

Apparently, my son is in one of the better performing govt schools according to the website. That said, people need to not place too much emphasis on these stats and must realise that a child’s success at school has way more to do with what happens at home than at school. It sickens me to hear some of my friends that spend their life savings to send their kids to private school and somehow find that it justifies them not having to do as much work on their kids at home!! And they are proud of themselves too! Tell you what, it’s no use coming from a school rated with all greens when your kid is actually at the bottom of that pile!

Why’d they bother to include the colleges if there’s no data?

Also, I’m just about to move my youngest daughter from a private school to a local public high school (which we were pretty impressed with at interview) but their results weren’t all that flash. Hopefully I’m not reading too much into the results 🙁

Some flashes of colour on an website containing uncontextualised, incomplete information sure is a great way to dictate the education of your children.

Remember when people actually visited schools and talked to local parents as a means of determining the appropriate school for their children?

grunge_hippy3:04 pm 28 Jan 10

yes because the results of one test is a good indicator of overall achievement of a school…

Clown Killer2:17 pm 28 Jan 10

The limitations of the comparison aside my decision to choose a private education for my kids instead of sending them to the Government primary school in our suburb appears to have been a prudent one – our local school comes up as an ocean of crimson.

Quite well, though I know it is only an indicator.

It took me, ooh about fifteen minutes to compile and graph league tables for primary schools in Weston Creek.

hummmm St Edmunds didn’t do so well.

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