Julia trapped by an angry mob at the Tent Embassy?

johnboy 26 January 2012 341

We’re hearing there have been ugly scenes at the tent embassy with the Prime Minister needing to be rescued by police.

If you were there please tell us all about it in the comments or mail pictures through to images@the-riotact.com .

Here’s Nine’s take on it:

julia gillard bundled into a taxi mopo

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341 Responses to Julia trapped by an angry mob at the Tent Embassy?
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Skyring Skyring 3:48 pm 02 Feb 12

Jim Jones said :

Any evidence that all these Aboriginal people “didn’t bother identifying as Aboriginal until recently”?

“Over the past 20 years, the census count of Indigenous people has doubled from 227,593 in 1986. This high level of growth is a result of natural increase (the excess of births over deaths) and non-demographic factors such as people identifying their Indigenous origin for the first time in the Census.”
4705.0 – Population Distribution, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians, 2006 , under “Census Counts”.

Skyring Skyring 3:41 pm 02 Feb 12

Special G said :

Weren’t women listed as whitegoods and other household appliances until the 60’s as well.

They were sold on the lay-by plan.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 3:41 pm 02 Feb 12

Skyring said :

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

The more sober response is to ask exactly what you mean by “indigenous disadvantage”, and why you consider Aboriginal Australians to be inferior to other Australians.

Indigenous disadvantage is appallingly well document – indigenous Australians fall well behind other Australians in every indicator of wellbeing (economic, health, education).

Hmmm. Let me put it another way. Do you consider ALL Aboriginal Australians to be disadvantaged? If so, how do you explain that many Aboriginal Australians live normal suburban lives, having the same standards of living as everyone else and in fact many of them didn’t bother identifying as Aboriginal until recently?

Nny evidence that all these Aboriginal people “didn’t bother identifying as Aboriginal until recently”?

Sounds suspiciously like the Andrew Bolt ‘white people identify as aboriginal to get ahead’ argument … which, incidently, was so littered with factual errors and full of avarice that he was taken to court for it, and comprehensively lost his case into the bargain.

Skyring Skyring 3:39 pm 02 Feb 12

Jim Jones said :

Oh hang on, they’re not: lets have a look at some basic stats, shall we? http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/

Interesting site. Not a government site, I notice, and nor are any references given. It would be helpful if links to sources and methodology were provided.

As for “basic stats”, I fear that you are sadly misinformed as to what basic statistics look like. Something a fair bit closer to the raw data would be useful.

Skyring Skyring 3:28 pm 02 Feb 12

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

The more sober response is to ask exactly what you mean by “indigenous disadvantage”, and why you consider Aboriginal Australians to be inferior to other Australians.

Indigenous disadvantage is appallingly well document – indigenous Australians fall well behind other Australians in every indicator of wellbeing (economic, health, education).

Hmmm. Let me put it another way. Do you consider ALL Aboriginal Australians to be disadvantaged? If so, how do you explain that many Aboriginal Australians live normal suburban lives, having the same standards of living as everyone else and in fact many of them didn’t bother identifying as Aboriginal until recently?

Special G Special G 3:17 pm 02 Feb 12

Baldy said :

Though I don’t want to wade into this discussion, I don’t think he finds them inferior just that they have been held back so long they need a booster to catch up with the rest of sociaty, and that there is justification for doing so due to the large amount of past racist policy, such as listing aborigonies as Australian fauna up to the sixties.

Weren’t women listed as whitegoods and other household appliances until the 60’s as well.

There have been a whole bunch of policies over the years to attempt to ‘bridge the gap’ and make Indigenous Australians more inclusive, improve health, schooling etc.. It seems to be rail against the govt on one hand whilst the other is held out firmly for a dole check.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:53 pm 02 Feb 12

Ben_Dover said :

Of course I don’t regard those women as inferior! But their access to medical resources is obviously far less extensive and they (and their children) pay an awful price for that.

They have access to the same maternity and medical system as the rest of us.

Oh, hang about..

ABORIGINAL MATERNITY GROUP PRACTICE
ABORIGINAL MATERNITY. GROUP PRACTICE. Illustrations by Kerry-Anne
Winmar 2008. A new initiative in maternity care for Aboriginal families in Western …

WA’s Aboriginal women and babies to benefit from new maternity unit
30 Aug 2011 … The Aboriginal Maternity Services Support Unit (AMSSU),

Closing the Gap’: How maternity services can
contribute to reducing poor maternal infant
health outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander women

etc etc etc
Sorry, no they don’t, they have access to all the national systems, plus ones set up specifically to cater to them.

Ben_Dover said :

Of course I don’t regard those women as inferior! But their access to medical resources is obviously far less extensive and they (and their children) pay an awful price for that.

They have access to the same maternity and medical system as the rest of us.

Oh, hang about..

ABORIGINAL MATERNITY GROUP PRACTICE
ABORIGINAL MATERNITY. GROUP PRACTICE. Illustrations by Kerry-Anne
Winmar 2008. A new initiative in maternity care for Aboriginal families in Western …

WA’s Aboriginal women and babies to benefit from new maternity unit
30 Aug 2011 … The Aboriginal Maternity Services Support Unit (AMSSU),

Closing the Gap’: How maternity services can
contribute to reducing poor maternal infant
health outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander women

etc etc etc
Sorry, no they don’t, they have access to all the national systems, plus ones set up specifically to cater to them.

Yeah – that’s why they’re soooo much better off than the rest of us.

Oh hang on, they’re not: lets have a look at some basic stats, shall we? http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/

Ben_Dover Ben_Dover 2:45 pm 02 Feb 12

Of course I don’t regard those women as inferior! But their access to medical resources is obviously far less extensive and they (and their children) pay an awful price for that.

They have access to the same maternity and medical system as the rest of us.

Oh, hang about..

ABORIGINAL MATERNITY GROUP PRACTICE
ABORIGINAL MATERNITY. GROUP PRACTICE. Illustrations by Kerry-Anne
Winmar 2008. A new initiative in maternity care for Aboriginal families in Western …

WA’s Aboriginal women and babies to benefit from new maternity unit
30 Aug 2011 … The Aboriginal Maternity Services Support Unit (AMSSU),

Closing the Gap’: How maternity services can
contribute to reducing poor maternal infant
health outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander women

etc etc etc
Sorry, no they don’t, they have access to all the national systems, plus ones set up specifically to cater to them.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:39 pm 02 Feb 12

Skyring said :

Baldy said :

Though I don’t want to wade into this discussion, I don’t think he finds them inferior just that they have been held back so long they need a booster to catch up with the rest of sociaty, and that there is justification for doing so due to the large amount of past racist policy, such as listing aborigonies as Australian fauna up to the sixties.

Mmmm, you’re falling into the same trap of regarding all Aboriginal Australians as disadvantaged (if not inferior). What about those Aboriginal Australians – and there are hundreds of thousands of them – who live lives indistinguishable to the non-Aboriginal people living beside them? They are in no way disadvantaged. In fact many of them didn’t bother to acknowledge their Aboriginal ancestry until it became advantageous to do so.

Not sure about this “Australian fauna” business. I hear a lot of myths being repeated about such things, such as Aborigines not being citizens or having the right to vote until 1967. This is likewise nonsense. Aboriginal Australians became Australian citizens – along with every other Australian – with the passage of the Nationality and Citizenship Act in 1948. Aboriginal Australians voted as per State law in the first Commonwealth elections in 1901. and though their rights were whittled away, Menzies ensured that there was no prohibition under Commonwealth law in 1962. http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/indigenous_vote/aborigin.htm

You must have taken history lessons from Windschuttle.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:36 pm 02 Feb 12

Skyring said :

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

I say that as a community, we are morally bound to help those in need, but that we should provide services based on the need, not the race.

I’d strongly suggest you talk to someone (anyone) who’s had experience dealing with issues of indigenous disadvantage and see how effective they think any action would be that ignored ‘aboriginality’.

The flip answer is that the people with “experience dealing with issues of indigenous disadvantage” are very likely making a very good living from government programs and they aren’t about to derail their personal gravy train.

The more sober response is to ask exactly what you mean by “indigenous disadvantage”, and why you consider Aboriginal Australians to be inferior to other Australians.

Indigenous disadvantage is appallingly well document – indigenous Australians fall well behind other Australians in every indicator of wellbeing (economic, health, education). If you won’t even acknowledge that then you’ve got your head buried in the sand for the sake of some bizarre ideology and there’s no point engaging with you.

Might I also remark on how pleasant it is to discuss something with a person who so quickly resorts to accusations of racism as a rhetorical device and accuses people working towards aboriginal welfare as being on a ‘gravy train’ (which not only demonstrate an appalling lack of knowledge of the living conditions and wages of people working in aboriginal welfare, but also demonstrates an absolutely appalling set of personal principals). Honestly: What sort of person accuses people working for the betterment of the disadvantaged of being greedy and self-interested, and labels attempts at reducing the gap in living standards as ‘racist’?

Skyring Skyring 2:30 pm 02 Feb 12

Baldy said :

Though I don’t want to wade into this discussion, I don’t think he finds them inferior just that they have been held back so long they need a booster to catch up with the rest of sociaty, and that there is justification for doing so due to the large amount of past racist policy, such as listing aborigonies as Australian fauna up to the sixties.

Mmmm, you’re falling into the same trap of regarding all Aboriginal Australians as disadvantaged (if not inferior). What about those Aboriginal Australians – and there are hundreds of thousands of them – who live lives indistinguishable to the non-Aboriginal people living beside them? They are in no way disadvantaged. In fact many of them didn’t bother to acknowledge their Aboriginal ancestry until it became advantageous to do so.

Not sure about this “Australian fauna” business. I hear a lot of myths being repeated about such things, such as Aborigines not being citizens or having the right to vote until 1967. This is likewise nonsense. Aboriginal Australians became Australian citizens – along with every other Australian – with the passage of the Nationality and Citizenship Act in 1948. Aboriginal Australians voted as per State law in the first Commonwealth elections in 1901. and though their rights were whittled away, Menzies ensured that there was no prohibition under Commonwealth law in 1962. http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/indigenous_vote/aborigin.htm

Skyring Skyring 2:13 pm 02 Feb 12

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

I say that as a community, we are morally bound to help those in need, but that we should provide services based on the need, not the race.

I’d strongly suggest you talk to someone (anyone) who’s had experience dealing with issues of indigenous disadvantage and see how effective they think any action would be that ignored ‘aboriginality’.

The flip answer is that the people with “experience dealing with issues of indigenous disadvantage” are very likely making a very good living from government programs and they aren’t about to derail their personal gravy train.

The more sober response is to ask exactly what you mean by “indigenous disadvantage”, and why you consider Aboriginal Australians to be inferior to other Australians.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:07 pm 02 Feb 12

Skyring said :

I say that as a community, we are morally bound to help those in need, but that we should provide services based on the need, not the race.

I’d strongly suggest you talk to someone (anyone) who’s had experience dealing with issues of indigenous disadvantage and see how effective they think any action would be that ignored ‘aboriginality’.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 1:53 pm 02 Feb 12

Skyring said :

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

If one views the foundation of disadvantage as racial, then that is a very sad way of looking at things indeed.

Aboriginals are profoundly disadvantaged in Australian society – it’s utterly impossible to deny this. They fall well behind in every indicator of wellbeing you could care to name: economic, health, education, etc.

Are you arguing that it’s coincidental? That all these disadvantaged people just *happen* to be Aboriginal?

Hardly. I’m interested as to why you consider Aboriginal people to be inferior to everyone else.

So you’re seriously arguing that it’s completely coincidental that aboriginals have been repeatedly proven to be at a massive disadvantage in Australia be all indicators (health, economics, education, etc.) and that their race has nothing to do with it, and that therefore any special effort to bring aboriginal living standards up to the same standards as the rest of Australia is ‘racist’?

What an amazing coincidence.

PS – I just loved the sophistic squirming you did on ‘maintaining ancient farming rights’. Pity that there is no British (or other) tradition of maintaining ancient rights. It’s yet another amazing coincidence that these rights were all given very late in the 20th Century (Inuits were given whaling rights in 1970, for example) only to indigenous populations.

You’re trying to argue that redressing imbalances between the conditions of indigenous and white populations is ‘racist’, the corollory of which is that you’d be forced to admit that any ‘affirmative action’ is racist (if applied to skin colour) or sexist (if applied to gender).

Baldy Baldy 1:40 pm 02 Feb 12

Ben_Dover said :

Hardly. I’m interested as to why you consider Aboriginal people to be inferior to everyone else.

Nicely put. If he didn’t find them inferior, he woudln’t be arguing they need special treatment, extra services, money thrown at them, in fact a whole industry dedicated to supporting them in accessing basic services which all other Australians find quite easy to use.

Though that probably says more about him than it does about them.

Though I don’t want to wade into this discussion, I don’t think he finds them inferior just that they have been held back so long they need a booster to catch up with the rest of sociaty, and that there is justification for doing so due to the large amount of past racist policy, such as listing aborigonies as Australian fauna up to the sixties.

poetix poetix 1:39 pm 02 Feb 12

Skyring said :

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

If one views the foundation of disadvantage as racial, then that is a very sad way of looking at things indeed.

Aboriginals are profoundly disadvantaged in Australian society – it’s utterly impossible to deny this. They fall well behind in every indicator of wellbeing you could care to name: economic, health, education, etc.

Are you arguing that it’s coincidental? That all these disadvantaged people just *happen* to be Aboriginal?

Hardly. I’m interested as to why you consider Aboriginal people to be inferior to everyone else.

Ben_Dover said :

Nicely put. If he didn’t find them inferior, he woudln’t be arguing they need special treatment, extra services, money thrown at them, in fact a whole industry dedicated to supporting them in accessing basic services which all other Australians find quite easy to use.

I know Jim Jones doesn’t need anyone riding shotgun for him (to use a nice Mad Max type image) but I just can’t believe the comment about ‘accessing basic services which all other Australians find quite easy to use’ and have to pick you up on that. Just thinking about when I was pregnant; how I rang up a number of obstetricians to find the one who reflected my own ideas. That I saw the one I chose once a week, with my blood pressure etc, closely monitored. That I had several scans done of the baby. That I had a choice of a number of hospitals (private and public). That a paediatrician was on stand-by should the baby need it. That I had a week in hospital where the major threat to my health was eating too much cake/drinking too much wine from the dessert trolley!

You can’t say that an Aboriginal woman in a remote community would have access to the same choices? And that while some of these are not totally essential (cake and wine in particular, and perhaps finding a specialist I could boss around), the overall picture for many Aboriginal women is starkly different. This is reflected in infant mortality rates. Any money spent trying to improve access to health service is money well spent, I think.

Of course I don’t regard those women as inferior! But their access to medical resources is obviously far less extensive and they (and their children) pay an awful price for that.

Skyring Skyring 1:30 pm 02 Feb 12

Ben_Dover said :

…If he didn’t find them inferior, he woudln’t be arguing they need special treatment, extra services, money thrown at them, in fact a whole industry dedicated to supporting them in accessing basic services which all other Australians find quite easy to use.

Well, for a lot of people identifying as Aboriginal Australians, they ARE “all other Australians”. The census generally shows a massive increase in the number of self-identified Aboriginal Australians. 16% every five years or so.

This is not entirely due to birth rate, and it can hardly be immigration, so it must be that people who were previously not identified in any way as Aboriginal decided that the time had come to reveal their ancestry.

People living side by side with non-Aboriginal Australians, enjoying the same standards of living and so on.

Ben_Dover Ben_Dover 12:53 pm 02 Feb 12

Hardly. I’m interested as to why you consider Aboriginal people to be inferior to everyone else.

Nicely put. If he didn’t find them inferior, he woudln’t be arguing they need special treatment, extra services, money thrown at them, in fact a whole industry dedicated to supporting them in accessing basic services which all other Australians find quite easy to use.

Though that probably says more about him than it does about them.

Skyring Skyring 12:44 pm 02 Feb 12

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

The key point about racism is differential treatment based on race.

Utter bollocks.

If you can’t think of instances of differential treatment based on race that aren’t racist (particularly with regards treatment of indigenous peoples), then you’re clearly not thinking.

Clearly I’m not thinking. Could you provide an example of racial discrimination that is not racist? Just to fill my empty mind, you understand.

– In nine different indigenous Alaskan communities, whaling is allowed. It’s denied to the rest of the population.

Whaling. We see the same rights to hunt dugong and turtle and other protected species accorded to traditional Aborigines here. This could be seen as disadvantaging everyone else who does not enjoy these rights. If you see it as race-based, then you must likewise see it as racist.

The underlying principle, however, is a fundamental part of British law, aimed at maintaining ancient rights of hunting and harvesting the natural bounty of land and sea. Traditional rights of way over private land are continued and enforced. It requires specific acts of parliament to make exceptions, such as the various Enclosure Acts of the Nineteenth Century.

If non-Aboriginal people had existed prior to the arrival of European settlement and assumption of sovereignty over the land, then their pre-existing rights would likewise have been protected under existing law. There is a great deal of discussion and information on these common-law rights in the various commentaries on the Mabo case and I urge you to inform yourself on the situation.

Before looking at any other cases, could you just reassure me that you con side racism as a two-way street? That is, it is something that could be directed at races you might consider superior? For example, charging white people a higher price for meals in a restaurant run by non-white folk?

Skyring Skyring 12:31 pm 02 Feb 12

Jim Jones said :

Skyring said :

If one views the foundation of disadvantage as racial, then that is a very sad way of looking at things indeed.

Aboriginals are profoundly disadvantaged in Australian society – it’s utterly impossible to deny this. They fall well behind in every indicator of wellbeing you could care to name: economic, health, education, etc.

Are you arguing that it’s coincidental? That all these disadvantaged people just *happen* to be Aboriginal?

Hardly. I’m interested as to why you consider Aboriginal people to be inferior to everyone else.

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