Light rail build to nab half a carpark

Arthur Davies said :

watto23 said :

Maybe we can get the federal government to kick in funds for light rail like they did with Qld.

I’ve yet to read a coherent argument against light rail, other than saying we can’t affords this, but even statements like that are not really factual. What someone needs to do is come up with a better way to spend the money on public transport solutions.

Things about population density are a mute point, because the light rail is being built to enable a high density corridor.
Its not coming to Tuggeranong, is not a valid point. Its always going to have to start somewhere and IMO light rail would not work going to Tuggeranong.
Yes its a lot of money, but the government actually has a big budget. Health and education spending went up in the last budget so they are not suffering. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe they cut spending in areas that didn’t need the money or were wasting the money?

People need to understand, this is not actually just about lightrail. Its about creating a high density area to create urban infill. We do not have unlimited pockets of land to build family houses on with big backyards. We need places for people to live, the more housing that is created the less pressure their is on housing. Despite what many may think, many people are happy living in an apartment, not owning a car and catching public transport to work. That is what this is for. It takes pressure off housinh, off car parking in the city, plus does its best to avoid NIMBYs in the suburbs, like we saw at Yarralumla. The city is going to keep growing.

I totally agree that we need better transport options, but the discussion should be about what options. Trams go back about 130 years & were designed to solve a problem we no longer have. Of the 25 tram networks in Australia in the early 20th century, all but 2 were superseded by newer technology, the Govt is betting on the side of the 2 out of 25, I worry about the 23 out of 25! Technology has moved on & there are better more modern transport modes.

The Govt is pulling a “Yes Minister” trick on the community, As Sir Humphrey said to Bernard, “give the minister 2 options, one of which is unacceptable, the minister will always choose the other, the one the Dept wants, but you must never admit that there are more than 2 options”. This is exactly what the Govt has done, it has not looked at other options such as overhead rapid transit which would be both cheaper & far faster, let alone the coming autonomous cars . In the interim more express buses, which are cheaper than trams & offer a shorter journey time than trams, should be used while all the technologies are fully evaluated.

Overhead rapid transit could go above the outer lane of Northbourne, not down the median strip, so that passengers get off on the footpath not in the median strip. This avoids the cutting down of the median strip trees, the huge expense of replacing/reinforcing the existing services under the median strip & overhead rapid transit rails would result in little if any pruning of the existing trees along the footpath. The construction should be simpler so less car parks would be lost in the interim. A faster transport mode will be the only thing to tempt people out of their cars, not bashing them over the head & punishing them. After all that was what got people off their horses in 25 towns 100 years & more ago, now we need a better, faster & cheaper option to reduce the need for cars, for commuting especially.

One of the advantages of living in Canberra in the past was its connectedness, everywhere was only a few minutes away so people could be involved in anything & everything, not so now. Trams will NOT offer short journey times & connect people again, but far faster systems can. Trams can only be used by people near the tram line, overhead systems can get into the suburbs & many more people will benefit.

The Govt only looked at trams & buses, they rejected buses in spite of their lower cost & shorter trip times. They did not look at any other options & too many of the tram documents have never been released. Surely there should have been a full transparent investigation of ALL options with the costs, the advantages/disadvantages of all stated & published before any firm decisions are made. Surely it is time for Canberra to show some leadership & flair, as it used to. We need to show the way with a transport system which people will be proud of, which people will get people to come to Canberra to see it. What is wrong with the innovation the various Govt’s tell us to do (but not for them), some imagination & vision, something to make us go “WOW”. Especially when it is cheaper as well!

Sadly trams will do none of this.

When you go to the doctor Alan do you also go to the witchdoctor who promises you a miracle cure but can not even produce a brochure or demonstrate his “solution” beyond a crude video?

There is a point where scepticism and natural caution prevents you falling for every “too good to be true” sales pitch.

That should be Arthur of course, damn this insane “Spill Chucker”!

watto23 said :

Maybe we can get the federal government to kick in funds for light rail like they did with Qld.

I’ve yet to read a coherent argument against light rail, other than saying we can’t affords this, but even statements like that are not really factual. What someone needs to do is come up with a better way to spend the money on public transport solutions.

Things about population density are a mute point, because the light rail is being built to enable a high density corridor.
Its not coming to Tuggeranong, is not a valid point. Its always going to have to start somewhere and IMO light rail would not work going to Tuggeranong.
Yes its a lot of money, but the government actually has a big budget. Health and education spending went up in the last budget so they are not suffering. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe they cut spending in areas that didn’t need the money or were wasting the money?

People need to understand, this is not actually just about lightrail. Its about creating a high density area to create urban infill. We do not have unlimited pockets of land to build family houses on with big backyards. We need places for people to live, the more housing that is created the less pressure their is on housing. Despite what many may think, many people are happy living in an apartment, not owning a car and catching public transport to work. That is what this is for. It takes pressure off housinh, off car parking in the city, plus does its best to avoid NIMBYs in the suburbs, like we saw at Yarralumla. The city is going to keep growing.

The qld project is going to cost $700 million.. about half of what the estimate would be for the ACT project.
The qld project connects two areas of high demand, being the gold coast and Brisbane.
The qld project is mainly needed for the 2018 Commonwealth Games.
The feds are kicking in $0.095 Billion pittance compared to the tax that they will earn from it.

The feds have said that selling asserts wasn’t pragmatic. So in that end the selling of assets to get federal funding was a waste of time.

There is nothing that a bus system couldn’t solve in Canberra at present. There is no further federal funding. We have no commonwealth games.

The arguments for light rail are extremely poor. We need light rail to cope with the increased density and we need the increased density to make light rail viable.
There reason for doing it should be to save money. that’s that clearly not the case because many other options would do the same quicker and more flexibly.

For all those that say it has to start somewhere. How about Kingston where there is already rail.

The most important thing is that you need jobs to create urban infill. Increasing housing prices only creates less job demand.

Either way it makes more sense to create the light rail from Woden to civic. Woden is going to be much more high density and far enough away from civic that you can’t walk.

The argument that the population density in Braddon is crazy as most people will walk and save themselves the fare.

Does anyone have the numbers on how much the arboretum has earned Canberra vs the cost?
Speed cameras that can’t possible catch anyone. Athlon drive?

In terms of benefit. $800,000,000 on bikes would buy at least a million. Or a really good one for every single living person in Canberra. It would likely fix the obesity problem a bit too saving millions in the long run.

MERC600 said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

rubaiyat said :

Canberra is no longer the sleepy old country town that it once was. Friday and Saturday night in the city are extremely lively, there is plenty on and plenty to see and do. Increased population and a denser population around the heart of the City have seen to that..

I know it is bad form to self comment, but I have just come back from a string of NSW country towns and cities, and one thing that struck me, almost unexpectedly, was what a positive and familiar feeling the people there have about Canberra.

Most see it as a great place to go to, above Sydney, and seem to come here whenever they can.

Canberrans forget that as the largest regional city in the south and west of NSW, Canberra serves far more than its own population. Even though we are an independent Territory, we should be open to and welcoming to more than the 4.5 million people who already visit every year. We should be making accomodation more reasonable, accessible and getting around easier.

There is a huge economic opportunity for us to reach out to surrounding NSW and all those people who look to us as a real alternative to the capital of NSW. In contrast to our ignorance of them, they look up to us.

A brief summary of a few of the major stops.

Yass is a dump, I don’t remember it being this bad. Cowra has gone backwards and parts of it look like it is down on its luck. Canowindra has lost some of its edge. Bathurst is absolutely delightful and prosperous, as is Orange and most of the places between. Couldn’t get good coffee anywhere, but generally the food was of a very high standard (except Cowra/Canowindra).

People everywhere were warm and friendly, something people in Canberra could turn their attention to.

The canola in springtime just lights up the countryside you can’t stop from pointing to the next huge patch of green and gold and gushing “Look at that! Isn’t it amazing?” If I was a farmer I’d be growing canola just for the sunny burst of colour as it comes into bloom.

For someone who spends half his time bagging cars you seem to do a bit of driving yourself.
Inadvertently, you have confirmed the joy, convenience and necessity of owning a car as the areas you travelled through and travelled to could not have been reached by public transport.

No just confirmed I use what I have to, even though you can reach those places by public transport, the Government lack of funding and bias against public transport makes it extremely difficult.

You really should have updated that Black & White set of yours. I’m not stopping you using cars, I am arguing for an alternative, and encouraging everyone to switch/cut down.

Come on Rube’s old son , , you’ve been caught out . Driving around the countryside in your gas-drinking, piston-clinking, air-polluting, smoke-belching, four-wheeled buggie from Detroit City, while lecturing all and sundry back here about the evils of it all. tsk tsk.
I mean fair suck of the sauce bottle.
Just admit it, your a good ole high octane boy like the rest of us.

He probably drives a VW diesel.

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

rubaiyat said :

Canberra is no longer the sleepy old country town that it once was. Friday and Saturday night in the city are extremely lively, there is plenty on and plenty to see and do. Increased population and a denser population around the heart of the City have seen to that..

I know it is bad form to self comment, but I have just come back from a string of NSW country towns and cities, and one thing that struck me, almost unexpectedly, was what a positive and familiar feeling the people there have about Canberra.

Most see it as a great place to go to, above Sydney, and seem to come here whenever they can.

Canberrans forget that as the largest regional city in the south and west of NSW, Canberra serves far more than its own population. Even though we are an independent Territory, we should be open to and welcoming to more than the 4.5 million people who already visit every year. We should be making accomodation more reasonable, accessible and getting around easier.

There is a huge economic opportunity for us to reach out to surrounding NSW and all those people who look to us as a real alternative to the capital of NSW. In contrast to our ignorance of them, they look up to us.

A brief summary of a few of the major stops.

Yass is a dump, I don’t remember it being this bad. Cowra has gone backwards and parts of it look like it is down on its luck. Canowindra has lost some of its edge. Bathurst is absolutely delightful and prosperous, as is Orange and most of the places between. Couldn’t get good coffee anywhere, but generally the food was of a very high standard (except Cowra/Canowindra).

People everywhere were warm and friendly, something people in Canberra could turn their attention to.

The canola in springtime just lights up the countryside you can’t stop from pointing to the next huge patch of green and gold and gushing “Look at that! Isn’t it amazing?” If I was a farmer I’d be growing canola just for the sunny burst of colour as it comes into bloom.

For someone who spends half his time bagging cars you seem to do a bit of driving yourself.
Inadvertently, you have confirmed the joy, convenience and necessity of owning a car as the areas you travelled through and travelled to could not have been reached by public transport.

No just confirmed I use what I have to, even though you can reach those places by public transport, the Government lack of funding and bias against public transport makes it extremely difficult.

You really should have updated that Black & White set of yours. I’m not stopping you using cars, I am arguing for an alternative, and encouraging everyone to switch/cut down.

Come on Rube’s old son , , you’ve been caught out . Driving around the countryside in your gas-drinking, piston-clinking, air-polluting, smoke-belching, four-wheeled buggie from Detroit City, while lecturing all and sundry back here about the evils of it all. tsk tsk.
I mean fair suck of the sauce bottle.
Just admit it, your a good ole high octane boy like the rest of us.

watto23 said :

Maybe we can get the federal government to kick in funds for light rail like they did with Qld.

I’ve yet to read a coherent argument against light rail, other than saying we can’t affords this, but even statements like that are not really factual. What someone needs to do is come up with a better way to spend the money on public transport solutions.

Things about population density are a mute point, because the light rail is being built to enable a high density corridor.
Its not coming to Tuggeranong, is not a valid point. Its always going to have to start somewhere and IMO light rail would not work going to Tuggeranong.
Yes its a lot of money, but the government actually has a big budget. Health and education spending went up in the last budget so they are not suffering. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe they cut spending in areas that didn’t need the money or were wasting the money?

People need to understand, this is not actually just about lightrail. Its about creating a high density area to create urban infill. We do not have unlimited pockets of land to build family houses on with big backyards. We need places for people to live, the more housing that is created the less pressure their is on housing. Despite what many may think, many people are happy living in an apartment, not owning a car and catching public transport to work. That is what this is for. It takes pressure off housinh, off car parking in the city, plus does its best to avoid NIMBYs in the suburbs, like we saw at Yarralumla. The city is going to keep growing.

I totally agree that we need better transport options, but the discussion should be about what options. Trams go back about 130 years & were designed to solve a problem we no longer have. Of the 25 tram networks in Australia in the early 20th century, all but 2 were superseded by newer technology, the Govt is betting on the side of the 2 out of 25, I worry about the 23 out of 25! Technology has moved on & there are better more modern transport modes.

The Govt is pulling a “Yes Minister” trick on the community, As Sir Humphrey said to Bernard, “give the minister 2 options, one of which is unacceptable, the minister will always choose the other, the one the Dept wants, but you must never admit that there are more than 2 options”. This is exactly what the Govt has done, it has not looked at other options such as overhead rapid transit which would be both cheaper & far faster, let alone the coming autonomous cars . In the interim more express buses, which are cheaper than trams & offer a shorter journey time than trams, should be used while all the technologies are fully evaluated.

Overhead rapid transit could go above the outer lane of Northbourne, not down the median strip, so that passengers get off on the footpath not in the median strip. This avoids the cutting down of the median strip trees, the huge expense of replacing/reinforcing the existing services under the median strip & overhead rapid transit rails would result in little if any pruning of the existing trees along the footpath. The construction should be simpler so less car parks would be lost in the interim. A faster transport mode will be the only thing to tempt people out of their cars, not bashing them over the head & punishing them. After all that was what got people off their horses in 25 towns 100 years & more ago, now we need a better, faster & cheaper option to reduce the need for cars, for commuting especially.

One of the advantages of living in Canberra in the past was its connectedness, everywhere was only a few minutes away so people could be involved in anything & everything, not so now. Trams will NOT offer short journey times & connect people again, but far faster systems can. Trams can only be used by people near the tram line, overhead systems can get into the suburbs & many more people will benefit.

The Govt only looked at trams & buses, they rejected buses in spite of their lower cost & shorter trip times. They did not look at any other options & too many of the tram documents have never been released. Surely there should have been a full transparent investigation of ALL options with the costs, the advantages/disadvantages of all stated & published before any firm decisions are made. Surely it is time for Canberra to show some leadership & flair, as it used to. We need to show the way with a transport system which people will be proud of, which people will get people to come to Canberra to see it. What is wrong with the innovation the various Govt’s tell us to do (but not for them), some imagination & vision, something to make us go “WOW”. Especially when it is cheaper as well! Sadly trams will do none of this.

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

rubaiyat said :

Canberra is no longer the sleepy old country town that it once was. Friday and Saturday night in the city are extremely lively, there is plenty on and plenty to see and do. Increased population and a denser population around the heart of the City have seen to that..

I know it is bad form to self comment, but I have just come back from a string of NSW country towns and cities, and one thing that struck me, almost unexpectedly, was what a positive and familiar feeling the people there have about Canberra.

Most see it as a great place to go to, above Sydney, and seem to come here whenever they can.

Canberrans forget that as the largest regional city in the south and west of NSW, Canberra serves far more than its own population. Even though we are an independent Territory, we should be open to and welcoming to more than the 4.5 million people who already visit every year. We should be making accomodation more reasonable, accessible and getting around easier.

There is a huge economic opportunity for us to reach out to surrounding NSW and all those people who look to us as a real alternative to the capital of NSW. In contrast to our ignorance of them, they look up to us.

A brief summary of a few of the major stops.

Yass is a dump, I don’t remember it being this bad. Cowra has gone backwards and parts of it look like it is down on its luck. Canowindra has lost some of its edge. Bathurst is absolutely delightful and prosperous, as is Orange and most of the places between. Couldn’t get good coffee anywhere, but generally the food was of a very high standard (except Cowra/Canowindra).

People everywhere were warm and friendly, something people in Canberra could turn their attention to.

The canola in springtime just lights up the countryside you can’t stop from pointing to the next huge patch of green and gold and gushing “Look at that! Isn’t it amazing?” If I was a farmer I’d be growing canola just for the sunny burst of colour as it comes into bloom.

For someone who spends half his time bagging cars you seem to do a bit of driving yourself.
Inadvertently, you have confirmed the joy, convenience and necessity of owning a car as the areas you travelled through and travelled to could not have been reached by public transport.

No just confirmed I use what I have to, even though you can reach those places by public transport, the Government lack of funding and bias against public transport makes it extremely difficult.

You really should have updated that Black & White set of yours. I’m not stopping you using cars, I am arguing for an alternative, and encouraging everyone to switch/cut down.

Maybe we can get the federal government to kick in funds for light rail like they did with Qld.

I’ve yet to read a coherent argument against light rail, other than saying we can’t affords this, but even statements like that are not really factual. What someone needs to do is come up with a better way to spend the money on public transport solutions.

Things about population density are a mute point, because the light rail is being built to enable a high density corridor.
Its not coming to Tuggeranong, is not a valid point. Its always going to have to start somewhere and IMO light rail would not work going to Tuggeranong.
Yes its a lot of money, but the government actually has a big budget. Health and education spending went up in the last budget so they are not suffering. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe they cut spending in areas that didn’t need the money or were wasting the money?

People need to understand, this is not actually just about lightrail. Its about creating a high density area to create urban infill. We do not have unlimited pockets of land to build family houses on with big backyards. We need places for people to live, the more housing that is created the less pressure their is on housing. Despite what many may think, many people are happy living in an apartment, not owning a car and catching public transport to work. That is what this is for. It takes pressure off housinh, off car parking in the city, plus does its best to avoid NIMBYs in the suburbs, like we saw at Yarralumla. The city is going to keep growing.

rubaiyat said :

Ahh ahh ahhh ahh

I’m on the highway highway highway to love
I take the exit to your heart girl I can’t get enough
There’s only one way one way one way’s enough
Just take the highway to love and you’ll be there

There’s only one way there the one I know
Everyone off the bus, everyone off the tram
Everyone sitting in the traffic where I am
Sitting in the traffic waiting to go
Maybe dead stupid but the only way I know

You forgot to mention the canola fields.

rubaiyat said :

rubaiyat said :

Canberra is no longer the sleepy old country town that it once was. Friday and Saturday night in the city are extremely lively, there is plenty on and plenty to see and do. Increased population and a denser population around the heart of the City have seen to that..

I know it is bad form to self comment, but I have just come back from a string of NSW country towns and cities, and one thing that struck me, almost unexpectedly, was what a positive and familiar feeling the people there have about Canberra.

Most see it as a great place to go to, above Sydney, and seem to come here whenever they can.

Canberrans forget that as the largest regional city in the south and west of NSW, Canberra serves far more than its own population. Even though we are an independent Territory, we should be open to and welcoming to more than the 4.5 million people who already visit every year. We should be making accomodation more reasonable, accessible and getting around easier.

There is a huge economic opportunity for us to reach out to surrounding NSW and all those people who look to us as a real alternative to the capital of NSW. In contrast to our ignorance of them, they look up to us.

A brief summary of a few of the major stops.

Yass is a dump, I don’t remember it being this bad. Cowra has gone backwards and parts of it look like it is down on its luck. Canowindra has lost some of its edge. Bathurst is absolutely delightful and prosperous, as is Orange and most of the places between. Couldn’t get good coffee anywhere, but generally the food was of a very high standard (except Cowra/Canowindra).

People everywhere were warm and friendly, something people in Canberra could turn their attention to.

The canola in springtime just lights up the countryside you can’t stop from pointing to the next huge patch of green and gold and gushing “Look at that! Isn’t it amazing?” If I was a farmer I’d be growing canola just for the sunny burst of colour as it comes into bloom.

For someone who spends half his time bagging cars you seem to do a bit of driving yourself.
Inadvertently, you have confirmed the joy, convenience and necessity of owning a car as the areas you travelled through and travelled to could not have been reached by public transport.

Ahh ahh ahhh ahh

I’m on the highway highway highway to love
I take the exit to your heart girl I can’t get enough
There’s only one way one way one way’s enough
Just take the highway to love and you’ll be there

There’s only one way there the one I know
Everyone off the bus, everyone off the tram
Everyone sitting in the traffic where I am
Sitting in the traffic waiting to go
Maybe dead stupid but the only way I know

gooterz said :

rubaiyat said :

gooterz said :

Its not that the people will stop driving and take public transport they’ll just stop going to the city. Places like DFO and IKEA will win out as places to spend. The city will due off and become a ghost town. I predict centrrpoint will be half empty soon.

Have you been to the DFO? It’s dead.

IKEA is a classic example of people ignoring costs, driving long distances, desperately trying to pick up cheaply made ‘bargains’ that aren’t, simply because they made the ridiculous drive in the first place and don’t want to go home empty handed.

The people who live in the City or conveniently to the City will enjoy the City, and just by the look of it substantially more than the drivers dragging their 3rd world manufactured junk home to spend all weekend trying to assemble it as they watch Reno porn on The Block.

If I appear to have a low opinion of groomed consumers, that is shared by farmers for their sheep.

So reading between the lines. Its good for those close by but no one else.
However you neglect to notice that its the people that travel far and wide that actually populate those shops you like to live next too.

Take away the interest civic will just be a residential dump with little entertainment.

Floriade next year is the last in current location, the one after should be in Tuggeranong. Lots of room and lots of people around that are happy if visitors don’t pay for parking.

A flower show in a Park next to Lake Burley Griffin was never going to work.

It’s the wrong way round, make it what it should have been in the first place.

It doesn’t have enough car parking, it should have always been Car Parking with some flowers between the cars.

Combine ample parking with flowers and as a bonus you can drive over the beds as you leave.

The only thing is Nobody I Know is for the white elephant of Floriade in Tuggeranong, which is for only a small number of people in the South. I can’t use it, and it will bankrupt Canberra. Our children and grandchildren will be paying off the debt for generations!

A scrap metal business in Hume is already closing down and moving to Brisbane because of the Tuggeranong Floriade. We will all be ruined!

I really want to like this toy train set, but I fear it’s going to be a massive dud.

rubaiyat said :

gooterz said :

Its not that the people will stop driving and take public transport they’ll just stop going to the city. Places like DFO and IKEA will win out as places to spend. The city will due off and become a ghost town. I predict centrrpoint will be half empty soon.

Have you been to the DFO? It’s dead.

IKEA is a classic example of people ignoring costs, driving long distances, desperately trying to pick up cheaply made ‘bargains’ that aren’t, simply because they made the ridiculous drive in the first place and don’t want to go home empty handed.

The people who live in the City or conveniently to the City will enjoy the City, and just by the look of it substantially more than the drivers dragging their 3rd world manufactured junk home to spend all weekend trying to assemble it as they watch Reno porn on The Block.

If I appear to have a low opinion of groomed consumers, that is shared by farmers for their sheep.

So reading between the lines. Its good for those close by but no one else.
However you neglect to notice that its the people that travel far and wide that actually populate those shops you like to live next too.

Take away the interest civic will just be a residential dump with little entertainment.

Floriade next year is the last in current location, the one after should be in Tuggeranong. Lots of room and lots of people around that are happy if visitors don’t pay for parking.

Imagine there’s no gardens
It’s easy if you try
No grass below us
Flats stacked to the sky
Imagine all the people
Living in the same…

Imagine there’s no children
And no need for a car
Nothing to change nappies for
A million Andrew Barrs
Imagine all the people
Living in a dream…

Ohh-ohh-ohh-ohhh-ohhh
You may say I’m not a breeder
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll take a tram with us
And Canberra will be-eee fun.

Imagine no McMansions
I wonder if you can
No IKEA or McDonalds
A greeny master plan
Imagine all the people
Cycling round the world…

Ohh-ohh-ohh-ohhh-ohhh
You may say I’m not a breeder
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll take a tram with us
And Canberra will beee fun

This is getting serious, we need a good sing-a-long:

They railed paradise
And closed a parking lot
Built a green hotel, sushi bar
And an artisanal hot spot
Don’t it always seem to go
That you don’t know what you’ve got
‘Till it’s gone
They railed paradise
And put up a tram depot

They took all the trees
Put them in the National Arboretum
And they charged the people
A bucket of cash just to see ’em
Don’t it always seem to go
That you don’t know what you’ve got
‘Till it’s gone
They railed paradise
And put up a tram depot

Late last night,
I heard a Skywhale crash
And a hybrid Uber taxi
Took away my old man
Don’t it always seem to go
That you don’t know what you’ve got
‘Till it’s gone
They railed paradise
And put up a tram depot

………………………………

Imagine there’s no autos
it’s easy if you try
No radials below us
Above us only wires
Imagine all the people queuing for a tram

Imagine there’s no parking
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to circle or fight for
And no inspectors too
Imagine all the cyclists, riding six abreast

You may say I’m a rentseeker
But I’m not the only one
I hope some day you’ll join us
And the world will commute as one

rubaiyat said :

Canberra is no longer the sleepy old country town that it once was. Friday and Saturday night in the city are extremely lively, there is plenty on and plenty to see and do. Increased population and a denser population around the heart of the City have seen to that..

I know it is bad form to self comment, but I have just come back from a string of NSW country towns and cities, and one thing that struck me, almost unexpectedly, was what a positive and familiar feeling the people there have about Canberra.

Most see it as a great place to go to, above Sydney, and seem to come here whenever they can.

Canberrans forget that as the largest regional city in the south and west of NSW, Canberra serves far more than its own population. Even though we are an independent Territory, we should be open to and welcoming to more than the 4.5 million people who already visit every year. We should be making accomodation more reasonable, accessible and getting around easier.

There is a huge economic opportunity for us to reach out to surrounding NSW and all those people who look to us as a real alternative to the capital of NSW. In contrast to our ignorance of them, they look up to us.

A brief summary of a few of the major stops.

Yass is a dump, I don’t remember it being this bad. Cowra has gone backwards and parts of it look like it is down on its luck. Canowindra has lost some of its edge. Bathurst is absolutely delightful and prosperous, as is Orange and most of the places between. Couldn’t get good coffee anywhere, but generally the food was of a very high standard (except Cowra/Canowindra).

People everywhere were warm and friendly, something people in Canberra could turn their attention to.

The canola in springtime just lights up the countryside you can’t stop from pointing to the next huge patch of green and gold and gushing “Look at that! Isn’t it amazing?” If I was a farmer I’d be growing canola just for the sunny burst of colour as it comes into bloom.

gooterz said :

Its not that the people will stop driving and take public transport they’ll just stop going to the city. Places like DFO and IKEA will win out as places to spend. The city will due off and become a ghost town. I predict centrrpoint will be half empty soon.

Anyone who has commercially risked a dollar of their own in Canberra understands this. There is no one in the current Government that has this experience so what is happening does not surprise me.
The ratepayer-funded Westside pop-up disaster is a classic example of our Government’s inept commercial judgement.

gooterz said :

Nilrem said :

ungruntled said :

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

No. They just get more & more angry & the rates of things like road rage & other anti social beaviours increase.

At present, they just don’t go at all – ask the business owners in Civic!

Bizarre. We live in one of the best places in one of the best countries in the world. And yet there we are a seething mass of resentment and anger. Time for a reality check?

Perhaps if the average population weren’t treated like children.
Speed bumps, where they aren’t needed and crazy speed limits that do nothing and usually aren’t obeyed anyway. Passive aggressive governments leads to criticism.

The hard facts are that government is for the people by the people. I don’t see the current mob lasting another term.

The Sydney tram is going to kill the ACT one. Sydney is going to be crazy around the time of the election and Canberra voters will be scared.

Its amazing how many master plans we have, but as yet no master plan for rail.

No rail master plan?

What do you call this:

http://www.transport.act.gov.au/policy_and_projects/light-rail-master-plan

As for your first comments about treating people like children, I don’t blame the government for that I blame the people. This day and the moment something tragic happens people expect an answer to ensure it never happens again, that of course leads to the nanny state mentality. If the government doesn’t do something they look weak, if they do it is normally a half arsed knee jerk reaction that others complain about.

The solution is to change the mentaility of the people by managing their expectations. But no pollie of any persuasion will do that.

ungruntled said :

JC said :

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

And that is a bad thing?

PS you could also say people are being charged the true cost of providing all that ‘free’ or subsidised road and car parking infrastructure.

JC I would be very interested to know more about your concept of community.
From this, it doesn’t seem to include such things as transport for all to use, (including those less able), or everyone who is able, paying, so that all can have access.
Has Australia degenerated to user pays? I do hope not. It would be so sad, considering how we began our communities here.

Not sure what community has to do with anything or what you are asking.

As for your comment about user pays, lets make this clear, what irks me is anything public transport the opponents always carp on about the cost, fares won’t cover the costs, going to send the joint broke, yada yada yada. No consideration for the social benefit or the the benfit good public transport brings to community.

Yet the same isn’t applied to road projects, and when a toll road is announced their are howls of discontent. People whinge about the ‘high’ cost of rego, the high cost of parking etc. When for the most part roads and parking is heavily subsidised by consolidated revenue. But somehow that is ok, but public transport not so.

gooterz said :

Its not that the people will stop driving and take public transport they’ll just stop going to the city. Places like DFO and IKEA will win out as places to spend. The city will due off and become a ghost town. I predict centrrpoint will be half empty soon.

Have you been to the DFO? It’s dead.

IKEA is a classic example of people ignoring costs, driving long distances, desperately trying to pick up cheaply made ‘bargains’ that aren’t, simply because they made the ridiculous drive in the first place and don’t want to go home empty handed.

The people who live in the City or conveniently to the City will enjoy the City, and just by the look of it substantially more than the drivers dragging their 3rd world manufactured junk home to spend all weekend trying to assemble it as they watch Reno porn on The Block.

If I appear to have a low opinion of groomed consumers, that is shared by farmers for their sheep.

Nilrem said :

ungruntled said :

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

No. They just get more & more angry & the rates of things like road rage & other anti social beaviours increase.

At present, they just don’t go at all – ask the business owners in Civic!

Bizarre. We live in one of the best places in one of the best countries in the world. And yet there we are a seething mass of resentment and anger. Time for a reality check?

Perhaps if the average population weren’t treated like children.
Speed bumps, where they aren’t needed and crazy speed limits that do nothing and usually aren’t obeyed anyway. Passive aggressive governments leads to criticism.

The hard facts are that government is for the people by the people. I don’t see the current mob lasting another term.

The Sydney tram is going to kill the ACT one. Sydney is going to be crazy around the time of the election and Canberra voters will be scared.

Its amazing how many master plans we have, but as yet no master plan for rail.

Its not that the people will stop driving and take public transport they’ll just stop going to the city. Places like DFO and IKEA will win out as places to spend. The city will due off and become a ghost town. I predict centrrpoint will be half empty soon.

JC said :

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

And that is a bad thing?

PS you could also say people are being charged the true cost of providing all that ‘free’ or subsidised road and car parking infrastructure.

JC I would be very interested to know more about your concept of community.
From this, it doesn’t seem to include such things as transport for all to use, (including those less able), or everyone who is able, paying, so that all can have access.
Has Australia degenerated to user pays? I do hope not. It would be so sad, considering how we began our communities here.

Nilrem said :

ungruntled said :

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

No. They just get more & more angry & the rates of things like road rage & other anti social beaviours increase.

At present, they just don’t go at all – ask the business owners in Civic!

Bizarre. We live in one of the best places in one of the best countries in the world. And yet there we are a seething mass of resentment and anger. Time for a reality check?

I see your point. However, there is a very simple explanation and it lies in some research that was done many years ago, but I am old enoough to remenber it.

Someone put a bunch of lab rats in a nice home. They were very contented & raised their families & all went well. Not much sick ness, not much in the way of anti social behaviour.

Then, without increasing the amount of space available, they just increased the population. In direct relation with the increased population density, the incidents of sickness (including cancers) and antisocial behaviours (including infanticide, fighting, etc etc) rose.

What is happening is no surprise. It could have been and in fact was, predicted a long long time ago.

You may feel that the latest arrivals are spoiling your Canberra, but that’s the Byron Bay effect.

“Shut the gates behind me.”

ungruntled said :

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

No. They just get more & more angry & the rates of things like road rage & other anti social beaviours increase.

At present, they just don’t go at all – ask the business owners in Civic!

Business is off everywhere. Westfields is rather good at disguising all the empty shopfronts in the regional Malls. Part of the cutbacks and uncertainty surrounding Public Service jobs.

We have had it worse, maybe you just can’t remember.

Also people are moving to more interesting spaces such as Lonsdale Street, New Acton and Kingston Foreshore which are doing well, very well in some cases.

Canberra is a very self centred and selfish place, in my experience. There is a strong Me, Me, Me sense of entitlement. Part of the over the top resentment of change is due to that and I get the impression that most of the complaints are from older retired people who frankly are not into many of the things that are happening.

Canberra is no longer the sleepy old country town that it once was. Friday and Saturday night in the city are extremely lively, there is plenty on and plenty to see and do. Increased population and a denser population around the heart of the City have seen to that.

The obsession with car parking and shopping malls is pretty shallow, what’s the point of all the ugly parking when it destroys the things you supposedly come to enjoy? When there are events on now, like the Night Noodle Markets or Forage and Hustle & Scout the number of people attending is astounding and all seem perfectly happy with walking and enjoying the activities.

Unfortunately there is also the crowd who seem to think their car trumps every other consideration and use them to destroy the landscaping by parking all over it. Even when free transport is laid on which many seem happy to use, there is a huge rump who want to drive straight to the door of whatever is happening and seem incapable of walking even moderate distances to get there.

ungruntled said :

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

No. They just get more & more angry & the rates of things like road rage & other anti social beaviours increase.

At present, they just don’t go at all – ask the business owners in Civic!

Bizarre. We live in one of the best places in one of the best countries in the world. And yet there we are a seething mass of resentment and anger. Time for a reality check?

chewy14 said :

I dont know why people are worried about this, those car parks are going to be subsumed by development in the next 10 years. Better get used to it.

This. IIRC the eastern carpark was released for a hotel site and the western carpark for hotel and the Court extension. My recollection was that they didn’t sell because of the requirement to pay for the block and also replace the parking made the project unviable. The carparks will definitely go, as they should, it’s prime commercial infill land. Major cities generally do not and should not have surface carparks in the centre of their commercial districts. It’s a waste of space.

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

And that is a bad thing?

PS you could also say people are being charged the true cost of providing all that ‘free’ or subsidised road and car parking infrastructure.

Skyring said :

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

No. They just get more & more angry & the rates of things like road rage & other anti social beaviours increase.

At present, they just don’t go at all – ask the business owners in Civic!

I dont know why people are worried about this, those car parks are going to be subsumed by development in the next 10 years. Better get used to it.

All part of the plan. Make life as difficult and expensive as possible for drivers and they’ll turn to public transport.

One has to question why the NAB bank would be building a car park, the fees would surely be exorbitant. I for one will now be taking my grand-kids into town via the tram and not the car.

Arthur Davies said :

Appart from the loss of car parking, look carefully at the drawing at the top. All the trees in Northbourne are to go & eventually be replaced (at quite some cost), but when they are replaced there will only be TWO rows not the original four. Has the revamped car parking, tree planting etc been included in the tram cost or is this all being sneaked in as a direct cost to Govt, so keeping the bid lower?

Arthur

Look forward to them lopping all the trees off at 5m to get your suspended soy sauce bottle monorail through.

How are they going with the brochure by the way? I can’t see any other progress.

Bit worrying when they can’t even knock up a cheap flyer at Snap Printing.

Arthur Davies said :

Appart from the loss of car parking, look carefully at the drawing at the top. All the trees in Northbourne are to go & eventually be replaced (at quite some cost), but when they are replaced there will only be TWO rows not the original four. Has the revamped car parking, tree planting etc been included in the tram cost or is this all being sneaked in as a direct cost to Govt, so keeping the bid lower?

Arthur

Hmmm, I see your point.
Also, is that hot air balloon to be tethered permanently to hold up the catenary with skyhooks?

rubaiyat said :

Also you might try lying across the path of the bulldozers or tying yourself to the Ticket Machines. Whatever it takes man! 🙂

Agreed. Unless there’s a willingness to set up a No Tram Embassy along the centre of Northbourne Ave you blokes aren’t really serious. You need to man up, stop whinging and take direct action. Expect to see burning of MLAs in effigy, picket lines, chaining yourself to trees, painting tram lines on the grass, full size cardboard tram models blocking intersections, the list goes on.

Come on sheeple, make a real stand. Catch the bus up from Tuggers and Burn Baby Burn!

Appart from the loss of car parking, look carefully at the drawing at the top. All the trees in Northbourne are to go & eventually be replaced (at quite some cost), but when they are replaced there will only be TWO rows not the original four. Has the revamped car parking, tree planting etc been included in the tram cost or is this all being sneaked in as a direct cost to Govt, so keeping the bid lower?

Arthur

OMFG. The trail of destruction that is the Tram continues apace. Not content with breaking the ACT Budget, and strangling the freedom of its citizens to turn Canberra’s roads into peak-hour parking lots, the dreaded ACT Gumment is salami-slicing our beloved car parks! It is time for all honourable citizens to rise.

gooterz said :

One has to wonder if this was the plan all along?

Say your going to use half and everyone will object. You do nothing.

Say your going to use the whole thing. People object. You then say it’ll only be half and people are grateful.

Nether agency has tendered / let it be known how much space.

Never confuse rank stupidity & arrogence for rat cunning. That decision is systematic of the poor decisions taken by this ACT Labor/Gresns government – including on Light Rail.

gooterz said :

One has to wonder if this was the plan all along?

Say your going to use half and everyone will object. You do nothing.

Say your going to use the whole thing. People object. You then say it’ll only be half and people are grateful.

Nether agency has tendered / let it be known how much space.

I feel for you. The temporary loss of the whole or part of one of the extremely ugly car parks that mar our city must be deeply disturbing for someone of your faith.

Even though it is not the permanent loss of green space that we experience every single day in Canberra, I understand your Whitefella attachment to the broken bitumen, weeds and concrete as part of your culture.

I could help you with a “Save Our Car Parks” sticker if you like. Also you might try lying across the path of the bulldozers or tying yourself to the Ticket Machines. Whatever it takes man! 🙂

One has to wonder if this was the plan all along?

Say your going to use half and everyone will object. You do nothing.

Say your going to use the whole thing. People object. You then say it’ll only be half and people are grateful.

Nether agency has tendered / let it be known how much space.